I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
I read the transcript, it appears Bush closed things down before someone could ask his Chimpus-ass why he still refuses to just ask his staff.
Which is also a career-ended for the senior administration official.
If that party was going to publicize the names of the Plame leakers, that party would have done so by now.
This is going to take a real investigation.
One thing that the administration leaker could do is to further fan the fires by letting out some more tantalizing tidbits. That will keep the story on top of the news and the heat on.
First sentence should read "Bush could end this"...
Rumour Atrios, more rumours! It gets us of little faith through the days. Even if its false, I dont care, just give me something, anything that makes me beleive there is still something called Justice. Even if just for today...
Tell me I'm wrong, and why:
Ashcroft will not recuse himself.
The Dems won't push this.
Bush won't end this.
The press will ignore the simple facts as laid out by Kos today.
Nobody loses their job.
Move along, people, nothing to see here.
"He (Bush) went on the record today as saying he doesn't know who jeapordized national security by outing a covert CIA operative". When it is finally revealed to be Rove, as we all know to be the case, I hope this lie on the record will be the final straw that sinks Bush.
This is what Bush's "bring the leakers on" comments are about (and the government-wide leak witch hunt).
They're daring the SAO (the rumours point to Tenet, no?)to come forward because they know he can't. His career will be over and he will have to admit he himself is a leaker.
We're all very impatient, but the waiting will bear fruit, believe me. The longer they wait the worse it will be for them.
I personally think Bush has already crossed the line into impeachable offenses here. He knew there was a leak 65 days and didn't do a thing.
He still hasn't. When the truth came out about what they did to Wislon they simply lied and slimed.
We're watching obstuction of justice right before our very eyes. There isn't any other explanation for it. Elsberg is on the record over at Salon specifically stating what lies will be retracted already.
It's tempting to be pessimistic, excpet for one glorious factor: the CIA.
They are not going to give up on this until heads roll. They could never recruit an undervoer analyst again. The statute to protect them was put in place by Bush's father.
Junior is even on the shit list at Kennebunkport, and the White House is manifestly stupid if it thinks it can play this game like a normal one against the wussy press and Democrats. Fortunately for all of us, the CIA will simply gut them at the worst possible time for them if they don't give the leakers up.
If it doesn't work they'll simply do it again with even more force.
It won't happen today--maybe the A's will win, that would be miracle enough--but it's coming, as surely as the sun rose this morning.
They're gone. Gone in flames, gallows and snapping knecks. I'm not kidding.
That''s why you're wrong, tin-foil hat boy. The CIA.
Say it over and over. You'll smile all day.
Just because there's a leak, you assume there's a leaker. Me, I think the leak simply happened all by itself without anybody causing it to happen, sort of like abiogenesis. Leak from leaklessness.
s/n:r
Would somebody please tell Sully that everyone knows that the 'Niger' claim was exactly what Chimp boy was referring to in the SOTU! The WH just used the British as cover and then threw in 'Africa' as a general CYA.
Whoever blew Plame's cover, I vote she has the pleasure of tossing them into the duck pit.
if anyone thinks the Chicago Sun Times should dump Novak they can write to
Mr. Conrad Black
Hollinger
401 N. Wabash Ave #740
Chicago Il 60611
if you think his syndicators should drop him write to
info@creators.com
if you think the Washington Post should drop him write to
ombudsman@washpost.com
If you think CNN should drop Novak you can write to
Mr. Richard Parsons
President
Time Warner
75 Rockefeller Plaza
NY NY 10019
The fact that 70-80% of Americans at the very least want to know what happened, who leaked, and why is very encouraging. This is crossing party and ideological lines. You're correct paradox. The more time this story is allowed to stew, the worse off for the National Socialist wing of the Republican Party. Useful idiots (not Novak) are starting to wake up.
This might be the event that destroys the radical American Right.
Would somebody please tell Sully that everyone knows that the 'Niger' claim was exactly what Chimp boy was referring to in the SOTU!
Why bother? It wouldn't do any good to tell him, for example, that the WH has already admitted that they shouldn't have used that line.
Unfortunately, few people are commenting on the fact that the entire Iraq segment of the speech was one lie after another.
It's not just that the senior administration finger who pointed his finger at the two White House officials in the Washington Post article could end this. If he doesn't come forward, he's obstructing justice and should be prosecuted with the others.
Intriguing theory, snr!
Anyone taking bets on how long it will be until we can refer to Bush as "an unindicted co-conspirator"? Ah, nostalgia ...
Does the requst for all materials relating to the leaks by DOJ include the tapes from the recorder running in chimpy's oval office?
Let's not also forget that Wilson and Plame have their own civil suit planned. This will force the hand of the White House, after Ashcroft tries to bury the whole thing.
Bush's best bet was to do the right thing quickly. Now he's married to a policy of delay and deny that will insure that the story maintains legs all the way to next November. Stupid stupid stupid.
That''s why you're wrong, tin-foil hat boy. The CIA.
God I hope you're right.
I picked a bad month to give up OxyContin.
Ashcroft will not recuse himself.
The Dems won't push this.
Bush won't end this.
The press will ignore the simple facts as laid out by Kos today.
Nobody loses their job.
The CIA detonates a bomb under an editor's desk. (figuratively)
The press 'suddenly' rediscovers it's independence.
Bush's ratings hit the "dead girl/live boy" floor.
Congressional Gopranos bolt.
Independent Investigator hired.
White House obstructs.
Felony idictments.
Frogmarches.
Oh gawd now this:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLIT...m.ap/
index.html
Bush writes poem
Roses are red
Violets are blue
Oh my, lump in the bed
How I've missed you.
Roses are redder
Bluer am I
Seeing you kissed by that charming French guy.
The dogs and the cat, they missed you too
Barney's still mad you dropped him, he ate your shoe
The distance, my dear, has been such a barrier
Next time you want an adventure, just land on a carrier.
---
Oh lookee our President is a poet and why is Laura a lump in his bed...wait don't answer that.
a
The public should demand that Bush require his senior advisors to sign a paper shifting to 'on the record and non-anonymous' their previous disclosure of Plame's status. That would end all this all tomorrow.
Well, another day of quiet from the Department of Justice and the White House passes by. The media are not making much noise, either.
I believe that this is called "relying on the safe bureaucratic delay of a controllable DOJ investigation to let the problem submerge beneath the waves of the ever-turbulent news cycle".
It may work -
chris says it word up
someone has to GO at this point.
Waiting only prolongs the agony.
The cundrum is...no one wants to be the guinea pig on that Felony thing.
Plus they know they will be outside the Texas BBQ club after this.
And dispite all else they are a mean bunch of SOBs who probably wont reward anyone who loyaly falls on their sword.
That loyalty crap is only for public consumption.
I mean look how thay treated a loyal NOC who actually put her ass on the line? A real true american? Loyalty indeed.
Perhaps the lump in the bed was left by Barney?
Anyone want to draw the connection between a pet named after a kid's dinosaur show, and a poem that sounds like it was written by a 5-year old?
No wonder his daughters have been driven to drink.
I personally think Bush has already crossed the line into impeachable offenses here. He knew there was a leak 65 days and didn't do a thing.
I came to an epiphany a few minutes ago. The issue is NOT that Karl Rove and Klowns blew Valerie Plame's cover, in of itself. The issue is that the Bush Administration is using the apparatus of state against Administration foes.
Let me say it again: the folks who run the United States Federal Government are using this said government against their foes. And not foreign foes, either, but domestic foes. And not folks at the margins of society (no less immoral, but easier to get away with shoving around), but other folks connected in the halls of power.
They're trying to push the envelope further. To say this should scare the shit out of you is an understatement.
"dead girl/live boy"
I've seen this several times. What does it mean?
"Barney's still mad you dropped him..."
Chimpy won't take responsibilty for any of his fuck ups!
Diamond, you are correct. And you have the best Soap Opera, or Drag Queen, name out there!
OH DEAR FUCKING LORD!! I was really, really hoping that was some sort of satire, Aria. That is one of the lamest contributions to poetry in literary history. It's as if a nine-year old wrote it!
God, he doesn't deserve a smart lady like Laura Bush.
P, dead girl/live boy means the ultimate scandal, being caught with either a dead girl or live boy.
Nice UPI story:
Commentary: Message over medium?
By Shaun Waterman
UPI Homeland and National Security Editor
Published 10/5/2003 9:07 PM
....
Now, according to the Washington Post, it seems that this leak was not a real leak at all. Rather, it was part of a coordinated effort to out Plame. The Post cited a senior administration official as saying that two members of the White House staff had called at least six journalists trying to flog the same story.
A lot of damage control has flowed over the airwaves since then. It has been said that Plame was an analyst, not an operative. Some have suggested that she was not really undercover at all. But the fact is that Plame appears to have had the most sensitive and vulnerable cover of all: she was an NOC, "non-official cover." Not hidden safely behind diplomatic immunity, but working for a private sector energy consultancy.
And working moreover, on the very issue the Bush administration says was at the heart of its decision to go to war with Iraq: weapons of mass destruction.
....
A very important line has been crossed here. The integrity of the policy goals -- non-proliferation of weapons of mass destruction -- is now seen by at least some in the White House as less important than the integrity of the message -- we didn't exaggerate the case against Iraq.
But actually, I think that line was crossed some time ago.
Consider the recent hagiography on the administration's response to Sept. 11, 2001, by Watergate alumni Bob Woodward. In it, he quotes verbatim from meetings of the National Security Council. This -- unless he spoke to a Cabinet official with an eidetic memory -- would tend to suggest that the minutes of those meetings had been made available to him.
As disturbing as it may be to think that the administration would show top secret documents to a journalist so he could write a fawning account of the White House response to the Sept. 11 attacks, it becomes more disturbing still if one considers the other half of the equation.
The minutes of meetings of the self-same NSC from before the attacks have been sought by both the congressional inquiry into the intelligence failures that preceded them, and the much broader national commission that the president finally agreed to set up when backed into a corner by Congress and the victims' relatives.
Neither has been granted access to them -- although the commission says it is still negotiating.
In other words, the administration will happily give top secret documents to a journalist with -- presumably -- no security clearance whatever. But it will deny those same documents -- on the grounds of executive privilege and national security -- to members of both House and Senate intelligence committees and to the inquiry that represents the American people's only real chance of getting an authoritative, independent account of what happened and what went wrong.
Again, the message seems to have trumpe
"dead girl/live boy" -- that loyal Repubs will support their candidate no matter what, until they're discovered in bed with a dead girl or a live boy.
[cut off]
Again, the message seems to have trumped everything, even the need to get it right in the war on terror.
http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?Stor...05-083619-
1370r
Bush's best bet was to do the right thing quickly.
From his standpoint, no. His best bet was to do what he did, which is sweep the matter under the rug and hope no one notices.
Now that it is out in the open, Karl Rove's best bet would be to serve up a sacrificial lamb, logically Scooter Libby. Throw him to the wolves, have him make a contrite resignation statement, and have John Ashcroft stall the investigation long enough that Libby's slap on the wrist is nothing but an page A11 footnote in the WaPo.
To do the right thing quickly would have brought either Karl Rove or Dick Cheney into the spotlight for wrongdoing. To have Cheney go down over this would have killed the Bushies -- they wouldn't have 40% of the vote in 2004. Losing Karl Rove isn't as fatal per se, but he would be the man to spin their way out of it, so it would be very tricky.
Does the requst for all materials relating to the leaks by DOJ include the tapes from the recorder running in chimpy's oval office?
I can't find the link but I do believe Bush ended the practice of recording oval office conversations.
"Dead girl/live boy" means the one thing guaranteed to bring down any politician is finding either a dead girl or a live boy in his bed.
s/n:r
"dead girl/live boy"
I'm probably getting this wrong, but I believe it was that great Texan, LBJ, who once said of another politician running for election: "He's a lock to get elected, unless they find him in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
Adam 4-4-2
lol - at least he thinks Chirac is a charming guy :D
a
Unless that's some attempt at irony by Dumbya, yeah.
Shystee: "They're daring the SAO (the rumours point to Tenet, no?)to come forward because they know he can't. His career will be over and he will have to admit he himself is a leaker."
Novak's White House pals (whoever they are) can be accused of violating a specific law. The SAO talked about them -- but what crime can he/she be accused of?
Tick-tock, tick-tock, tick-tock,
Runs the clock.
The longer Bush waits,
The sooner the date.
And the worse his fate,
can we say impeachment?
Damn, I am worse of a poet than George is!
Re: Bush writes "poem":
Reminds me of another:
Oh freddled gruntbuggly, thy nacturations are to me!
As plurdled gobbleblotchits on a lurgid bee...
[sounds of bone being gnawed through]
LATimes on subject today:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nati...a-home-
leftrail
agreed Cervantes - the only people in legal trouble are the WH officials. even Novak is safe. there's no law against leaking per se, only instances which compromise an operative's cover or national security.
"Let's not also forget that Wilson and Plame have their own civil suit planned. This will force the hand of the White House, after Ashcroft tries to bury the whole thing."
Chris--where did you hear that Wilson and Plame are planning a civil suit? I think it is a terrific idea, but I haven't heard it said that they are actually planning to do it.
Joycamp: I love the reference. Didn't some thoracic organ leap up through the throat and throttle the brain of the speaker (or was it the listener) in a last-ditch attempt to protect itself from the language being emitted?
Man, often I wish thoracic organs really did have wills of their own.
psst...
Dr. Robert Joseph
(cough)
I saw on the news that Tenet was supposed step down late summer/early Fall. You think he might leave soon and then let everyone know who leaked?
Blicero,
just about right
I wouldn't worry about the "senior administration official." If he talked to the Washington Post, you can bet he's talking to the FBI.
And the whole purpose of leaking to the WaPo was to keep Ashcroft from stifling the investigation. (The tactic worked, too.)
If it stalls out under the FBI, the "senior administration official" can choose what other cards to play, including going public.
Diamond LeGrande - you are absolutely right. For the Busheviki nothing is more important than loyalty to the Party. Blowing Plame's cover reminds me of Stalin shooting his generals just as the Germans were advancing on his frontier.
Let me say it again: the folks who run the United States Federal Government are using this said government against their foes. And not foreign foes, either, but domestic foes
Diamond - this is a bit of Watergate Redux. If I'm not mistaken, the Nixon gang tried to use the CIA to obstruct the FBI investigation of Watergate break-in. I specifically remember this point, but not the exact context or result. I do remember the CIA said no.
No, the dead girl/live boy quote comes from Edwin Edwards, former governor of Louisana, who kept getting re-elected despite repeated scandals.
Jim Faith -- You're not mistaken. Not only did Nixon use the CIA as a tool in domestic politics, he also used the IRS.
Cheers.
.
Anyone want to draw the connection between a pet named after a kid's dinosaur show, and a poem that sounds like it was written by a 5-year old?
Another datapoint: He did name the other dog "Spot".
GWB, the child-president. Aww.
No wonder his daughters have been driven to drink.
He drove me to drink, and I'm living in germany!
Thanks Cervantes - It'd be interesting to review the whole Watergate timeline.
I'm hoping that a civil suit filed by the Wilsons will be bushco's great unraveling. I wonder if John Dean would take their case?
I think Swopa's right, and that's what gives me hope that this won't die. The existence of that SAO is the one thing that makes this story a ticking time bomb.
Think about it, who could it be?
1. Someone at the CIA, wanting to make sure that their referral to the DOJ doesn't get buried. IMO, the most likely scenario. But: if that CIA SAO (and there is only one, or maybe two) said this, he probably already knows the identify of the two leakers, and he has made sure that the DOJ investigators also either know already or have enough info to know already - *before* the DOJ investigation even gets started. Why would they be keeping quiet? They're gathering proof.
2. Someone at the DOJ, speaking with information that could only have been provided by #1. Needless to say, if there are any SAO's at Justice willing to put this knife in W's back, he's screwed. (Given the political loyalty in Ashcroft's office, this would probably be the FBI.)
3. Someone at the WH. This would mean both that there is someone at the WH with either a conscience or a gripe, and that the original CIA source for the story knows of this WH person's existence. (I.e., CIA gives reporter basic story, says XX can confirm.)Otherwise, the WaPo reporter would have had to be extremely lucky to stumble on this quote. Again, big trouble for the Admin.
Anyway, I'm not explaining anything all the readers of this board don't already know, but it's worth reemphasizing when we get depressed: there is at least one SAO with both the information and the desire to make sure this story doesn't get suppressed.
The reason why they changed the bogus uranium source in the SOTU to "Africa" is because they were afraid chimpy would mispronounce "Niger".
"The Yellow Jester who does not speak smiles as he pulls the
strings and watches as the puppets dance in the court of the
Crimson King." Yellow Jester would be Colin Powell who is a
senior white hous official. He's been biding his time when
he could move against the Rice/Rumsfeldt/Rove trioka. The
leaks will continue, they dare not fire him; he will talk.
Wilson was Powell's employee.
One thing that I have been thinking is that even though the 2 month delay in the start of the probe was absurd, it has given the CIA alot of time to gather their own information, facts, and records before the Justice Department gathered it. What really will be interesting to see, may be how much of a discrepancy there is with the information the CIA gathered pre Justice Department order versus what information the Justice Department actually receives?
The cover up is always worse, and I think the CIA is probably 2 steps ahead of these guys.
Way up thread BobNJ makes a great point. Remember this date 10/06/03 as Bush is now officially on the record as denying he knows who the leaker is. Wonder if this denial will come back to haunt him once the facts come out.
Chimpus will fail
Chimpus will fail
Chimpus must fail
because the destiny of Chimpus is failure.
Bush should be pressured to ask all major members of his staff if they did the Plame leak.
Easy: get them all in room for 15 minutes. Bush, on the record, asks. Says "raise your hand if it was you".
Noone raises hand. All people ruled out.
SOA and investigation determine identify of leaker. Leakers are now liars-to-the-president as well as a crooks in general and are up shit creek without a paddle. President looks like a boy scout ferreting out a wrongdoers - not quite evildoers, but certainly serious wrongdoers.
Heads roll.
john d'oh
As regards the civil suit, check out the article about the "leak" (treason) in Saturday's Washington Post, entitled "Leak of Agent's Name Causes Exposure of CIA Front Firm. ( Sorry, I don't know how to do the linking thing.) In addition, reference Salon's article, written by John Dean.
The Wilsons have hired Christopher Wolf, partner in the firm Proskauer Rose, Washington office.
Is anybody running a fund for the Wilson's yet?? I'm in.
Bush won't ferret out the leakers -- he isn't in charge. That this stuff is coming out of the VP office is evidence of the Dick Rules theory.
Bush won't ferret out the leakers -- he isn't in charge. That this stuff is coming out of the VP office is evidence of the Dick Rules theory.
The Bush regime is like a stereotypical mob family.
They can't just toss Dick or Scooter to the media wolves: anyone high enough to have been the criminals is also high enough to know lots of other dirty shit about what's going on in that White House. Giving them the boot just might coax them to share some information with other people... They can't risk it.
the destiny of the chimperor is to be the worst president EVER.
I don't feel comfortable sitting back and letting CIA insiders wreck vengence on the Administration. For one thing, there's always the chance that the two sides work out a deal that leaves the CIA satisfied. More to the point, that's not how democracy should work. (So what, I'm a hopeless idealist. Sue me.)
We should be maintaining the pressure. I think that the soft spot that must be worrying the White House are Capitol Hill Republicans, each of whom comes equipped with a set of survival instincts. With Bush slipping in the polls, and the polls showing overwhelming public support for a Special Counsel, it shouldn't take too much aditional pressure to get some of them to crack.
Without a Special Counsel, Ashcroft will be begin sniffing all around the government trying to uncover any government workers who ever spoke to a reporter outside of their regular course of business. In the end, he won't be able to find the Plame leaker, but will be able to proclaim a great victory in the war on terror as dozens or hundreds of other "evil leakers" are exposed and dismissed from their government jobs. Of course, this will intimidate anyone who still has a government job and has any dirty laundry to air.
Let's keep working the GOP representatives. Regular mail takes a long time to reach Capitol Hill offices since it all goes on a lengthy journey to an anthrax decontamintion facility before being delivered. Instead, send e-mails, faxes, call their offices, stop in at their local offices and hand deliver letters or petitions. Find out what public events the representative will be holding and try to attend with as many of your friends as possible.
Keep on message. You are angry that this administration had a security breach that compromised CIA assets in the fight against WMD. This leaves your own family less safe and secure. You are angry that the President has not done anything to discover who among his closest advisors is responsible and mete out appropriate punishment. You can not trust the Justice Department that has done such a bad job so far in discovering the guilty parties. You are upset that most Republicans seem to be putting the good of their party over the national interest.
Jay G -
By all means, let's pressure the Congresscritters. And the media outlets, urging them to keep the focus on the sell-out of our national security for desperate and self-serving GOP motivations.
However, I don't believe the intelligence community will "work out a deal" with this WH. They have been screwed over royally. Their work has been seriously compromised, they will have monumental difficulties recruiting foreign human intelligence assets from here on in, and they will have trouble recruiting talent here at home. If you saw last Friday night's Nightline, featuring six CIA types, you know that each and every one of them expressed outrage, as well as the firm belief that this situation demands that the adminstration perps pay a very, very serious price. They believe that would be the only way to ensure they can keep recruiting desperately needed human intelligence out in the field. It would send the right message: "you can trust us to stand by you; heads rolled, no one will try THAT nonsense again." The CIA will not give anyone a free pass, IMHO>
Ooops, just caught my mistake: it was FIVE spooks on the Nightline show, not six. Still, very, very impressive. I can't remember ever seeing a program like that with so many intelligence people interviewed at once, all of them of one mind about what had happened, and what should happen now.
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