I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
Shouldn't Kerry make the point that we essentially attacked a defenseless nation?
Like I have been saying all along ...The Wizard has been revealed and we had the power all along to go home ......Cheney ....Im sorry SCARECROW I'll miss you most of all....
Cookie -- Sadly, no. Most Americans don't want to hear this about themselves.
We've OWNED the post debate spin. Bush is trying to turn things around, but...
Dubya stands for Wimp.
And honestly, I have to say I don't think the Swift Boat "controversy" was ever really as bad as it seemed in the sometimes-echo-chamber of the blogosphere.
One of Kerry's strengths, I think, is that he doesn't underestimate the voters. They really are smarter than the right wing and the media (was that redundant?) gives them credit for...
Well kudos to you, Atrios, and Kos and all the bloggers who have helped tremendously to get us organized and keep us organized.
And yes, the Kerry campaign has been masterful. I must say it is awfully nice to have the boards free of the kind of whining that they were full of there for quite a few months.
And I'll be eternally grateful to John Kerry and John Edwards for taking it seriously when we told them how important it is to us that they win this election. I think they got it.
You know, it occurs to me that maybe they set Cheney up last night (the Kerry camp). Edwards challenged him, but not too much- now they have Cheney on record, spouting all kinds of fact-checkable nonsense.
They can hammer them until the cows come home.
Schweeeeet.
And they did do a good job with the spin- with Kerry's debate it was easier (he clearly beat the shit out of chimpy). I was worried about last night, but they handled it deftly.
Doesn't this coincide with the Clinton team coming on board, esp Joe Lockhart?
Absolutely! I applaud Kerry and Edwards for their excellent work in the debates, tearing the curtain away from the lies of the Bush cabal. I also commend the rapid turnaround of video snippets of the debates that reinforce the panic and desperation of the republicans.
now they have Cheney on record, spouting all kinds of fact-checkable nonsense.
We've had this for years now. What's changed is that suddenly the media are accountable for dealing with it because everyone watched it live on TV last night.
A pen?
That's the best they have?
That makes "POLAND!" look good by comparison.
And C stands for CYANIDE
It coincides with that and it also coincides with a post-labor day push. I don't want to say the campaign was sandbagging in August but they do have a finite amount of resources and may have decided to save the big guns for Sept/Oct.
That said, from afar it seems to me that the Clinton team has made a huge difference, maybe THE difference.
Yes we own this spin. Its a beautiful thing.
If it hasn't been said here yet, go read Olbermann on his fight call "reversal" at MSNBC.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com
Damn, he's good.
And, sorry, I haven't figured out how to link with haloscan yet. You guys know how to find it.
I disagree with the Big A on this one. The Kerry campaign isn't necessarily controlling the post-debate spin, rather the media has no choice but to highlight the gross failures of performance of the Republicans in the debates.
Americans are starting to go to alternative news sources like the blogsphere, so outrageously glaring events in the debates--such as the President only having a sneering 45 second response to a question on homeland security or the VP making several bold-faced lies everyone knows to be untrue--have to react by at least mentioning them.
This isn't the work of the Kerry campaign and post-debate spin, it's the leverage of alternative media doing good work and mobilizing concerned people to scrutinize the press's reaction.
I am so hopeful now.....I have been waiting for Bush to be exposed as a charlatan since I saw his debate witrh McCain in South Carolina years ago........I can't wait to see his concession speech..!!!!! I will even donate the first dollar to his Presidential library ......anyone want to pony up the next 14 so we can buy him MY PET GOAT?
They had those banner/pop up ads last night too. I was searching the news sites for polls and, like, the second the debate ended the pop ups were telling me that Edwards rocked ass.
On Warren Olney's show today, he connects with press people and others around the country to measure the effect of the debate last night. One reporter said that there has been an extraordinary thirst for Fact -- that FactCheck has been overrun today, that people are calling their newspapers to say things like "You got that wrong; here are the facts..."
I credit Atrios and many others for being fact hounds and distributors. Seems like a bunch of "ordinary citizens" out there have caught on to the difference between Bushlies and reality.
A public radio poll in Iowa pressed people who were "undecided" for a decision and got... Kerry. Post debate tip towards Kerry in Missouri -- Kerry only one percentage point behind today.
Indeed. The banner ads were up on WaPo proclaiming Edwards the winner immediately after the debate.
I consistently see Kerry campaign ads on various newspaper sites, never see Bush's.
T James -- Have to disagree with you. The media has successfully ignored 4 years of gross Republican failure and the alternative media had no leverage at all in getting it to pay attention.
No, this is a confluence (if that's the right word) of many things, including a large number of Repubs finally jumping ship. Whatever, as long as it leads to the proper conclusion in 4 short weeks...
Attack adds don't work well in print. They have nothing else to run on. A picture of Cheney from the debate? That would terrify people.
BJ is right on target here. It is an not only an energy of repugs jumping ship but also reporters who must realign themselves to invcoming power....thats very cynical but thats the way it works.....
swifferBoat, Atrios, et.al.,
PUBLIC NOTICE is the key.
John Kerry is so much more a President than George W. Bush could ever dream of being...it's almost impossible to find adequate words to express the contrast between the two men: a man who volunteered for the US Navy during wartime, then volunteered for a second tour in SE Asia, then asked for a swift boat command ... then came home and took the burden of bearing the words, the woes, the wants and the worries and the anguish of his brothers in arms before the leadership of the nation to STOP the senseless war of his youth; and who, thereafter, chose a life of public service, as a prosecutor whose work was to STOP the criminals -- in the government (Iran-Contra; BCCI) or out of it (pre-Senate); and who, now, offers help, and hope, to a beleaguered populace embroiled in another senseless war ... and across from him at the other podium slouches a man who, in order to avoid going to war on behalf of his country, benefitted from politics and privilege -- not just getting into and then out of the TxANG, but in every "business venture" that followed, right up thru his (undeserved, illegitimate, extralegal) Presidency -- who honestly does not understand that "public service" means SERVICE to the PUBLIC good, to the Constitution, the nation, the principles underlying the very foundation of the USA.
Here are their seconds: an optimistic, valorous, accomplished man proud of his work and his father's work before him, speaking with the poise, grace, eloquence, factual basis, and open spirit of the American people; and next him at the table, an embittered man out of touch with those people, contemptuous of those principles, defiant of all reckoning.
Huzzah!
Good job guys!
I noticed John Edwards had the Bill Clinton thumb of power last night. Good to see.
Part of it was simply getting our candidates back up in front of TV viewing public.
Kerry had not had a national audience since the convention. The SB liars and RNC had turned him into a joke. Once the public saw Kerry the person the caricature was exposed as false.
But props to the DNC and Kerry campaign for their hard work.
I have a copy of My Pet Goat. It's yours, SimeonWolf --- give the $14 to the DNC.
Like I have been saying all along ...The Wizard has been revealed and we had the power all along to go home ......Cheney ....Im sorry SCARECROW I'll miss you most of all....
SimeonWolf
Simeon:
Cheney is the tin-man - no heart
Bush is scarecrow - no brain
both are the lion - no courage
other than that the analogy works for me.
Definitely. Congrats to the Democratic Party for once, for all their HARD WORK.
"I can't wait to see his concession speech..!!!!!"
Oh... Dare we even hope?
"My fellow 'mericans." Pause. Deer in headlights look. "I... I won't be your president any more. My God has turned his back on me..."
I'd say it's a combination of great spin (the Clinton people perfected it over 8 years), heightening the contrasts between KE and BC, and bypassing the media filter with the debates. It also doesn't help Bush that Iraq is going up in flames on the nightly news and that voters feel queasy about the economy.
bj:
There's two crucial differences between the past four years of the media's bowing to the demonstrably inaccurate statements by the GOP leadership and the success of the debates:
1. The distortions made by the Republicans and their apologists come into conflict with the actual side of the story as told by alternative media. KE04 simply takes up a few of the talking points put out there by Kos, TPM, and the A's E.
2. The blogshere and other alternative media like Salon have created support networks so all the KE04 people have to do is take up a few points and we run with them.
I'm not saying KE04 is doing a shitty job, but credit is due more to us than to their campaign people or even confluence of factors.
But, please, as Mr. Wolf said in "Pulp Fiction"...
30th?
The Accountability banner ads were great.
Yes, congrats to the Kerry/DNC team!
They were definitely faster in getting video out
Oh, and Porter Goss' Pick for Exec Director (who was from an oil company) gets caught red handed and has to settle for a lesser job under Goss.
Goss is gross.
Well, obviously the dems have had much, much better material to work with. Then again, they have all along. It's still incomprehensible why this gang of murderous, lying thieves can even poll 10%. There's got to be something in the water.
Isn't it great that now, when Bush or
Cheney says that Kerry and Edwards
saw the same intelligence he did, they
can say, uh, actually not.
Kay, I love Olbermann. He's got a good ear for fatuous nonsense and a large fist to smack it down with.
And yeah, this is looking good now. I'm not going to stop being scared shitless until election day, though, because .... Gah.
I should never have quit smoking.
A.
To show how easy it is to spin a line from one of these debates, I used a global test and found this:
"We dealt with Iran differently than we have Iraq partly because Iran has not yet, as Iraq did, violated 12 years of resolutions by the U.N. Security Council." -- Dick Cheney, 10/5/04
So, as you can see, he wants to wait 12 years before taking on Iran.
... Easy, isn't it?
Ed
Athenae:
I guessed you picked a bad day to stop
sniffing glue, too.
"I can't wait to see his concession speech..!!!!!"
Oh... Dare we even hope?
"My fellow 'mericans." Pause. Deer in headlights look. "I... I won't be your president any more. My God has turned his back on me..."
He WILL NOT concede. He will handcuff himself to the desk and some of his pet pasty-faced fatboys might actually go in with him.
But as of Jan. 21, the Secret Service works for Kerry.
A.
Rummy is the lion. I really hate that -- I always loved the lion.
Kay -
My wife just put in another $15.....Lets all ante up ......Kudos are Kudos but CASH will make a KING ( albeit representative of the people kinda King) !!!!!
Did anyone mention...
Stong Finisher!
Atrios...
Right as usual. Turkee soon.
Mommy!
Bush will have learned his lesson by Friday's debate. It took his top aides some time after the first debate to convince him he looked annoyed. Karen Hughes, who probably has more weight with him than any of his top staff, took some pains to make him come around, but finally got the point across. Bush will probably make fun of his smirk Friday night and try to turn his public sour puss to his favor. Whatever he does, he's been told to smile, even if the questioners at the second debate insult his mother.
So he remained petulant as his aides told him to he appeared petulant. Love it.
This just i:
Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry gained ground at President George W. Bush's expense in polls taken in Florida, New Jersey, Iowa, New Mexico and New Hampshire after last week's presidential debate.
Kerry has a 2 percentage point edge in Florida and the candidates are tied in New Hampshire, two states that were among those Bush won in 2000, according to the American Research Group.
In New Mexico and New Jersey, Kerry leads by 3 percentage points, within the error margin, according to polls. Bush and Kerry are tied in Iowa. The three states backed the Democratic nominee in 2000.
www.democrats.org
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
The other bit of BS they are trying to push is the "can't stand up to Dean" line. I haven't heard too much about the fact that timeline doesn't work. The vote was Nov 4, 2003, but the primaries were not until the end of Jan 2004 and Dean did not win one until March.
noticed John Edwards had the Bill Clinton thumb of power last night.
"Thumb of Power" I love it!
Giving a concession speech takes dignity and class. Bush possesses neither of those qualities, so I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't give one out of sheer petulance.
Snark o' the moment:
Karen Hughes, who probably has more weight...
Hear, hear, Dunkin. I've emerged from my funk and begun to consider the possibility of a President Kerry.
Whatever he does, he's been told to smile, even if the questioners at the second debate insult his mother.
So he'll smirk, then. Score.
He has not an ounce of sincerity and that's well past obvious by now.
A.
Atrios gets a mention in Salon's War Room:
And Cheney had another good line about Edwards' supposed absenteeism from the Senate. "Your hometown newspaper has taken to calling you Senator Gone," Cheney said. Again -- if only. This morning, Edwards' hometown newspaper, the News & Observer, asked of Cheney's reference: "Which paper is that?" The paper could find no mention of "Senator Gone" in its own archives.
Atrios found the paper in question, a weekly paper 20 miles away from Edwards' hometown. Not his "hometown newspaper," and certainly not nearly as influential as the daily News & Observer. As Atrios points out, the Philadelphia Weekly recently said that people who vote for Bush would burn in hell, but it would be a stretch for Kerry to use that against Bush in a debate, citing a "Philadelphia newspaper."
T James -- I would like you to be correct, but it's so hard to measure the influence of the blogosphere.
Heaven knows Atrios, Bartcop, Kos, Salon, even Josh Marshall, have helped keep me sane the last few years. It was important to know that everyone in this country hadn't drunk the poisoned Kool-Aid.
And now with the tide slowly but inexorably turning, we can watch all the cable news rats jump off their sinking ship.
Except for Faux News of course. They'll just keep repeating the mantra of Officer Barbrady:
MOVE ALONG. NOTHING TO SEE HERE....
The media isn't helping us at all, though. I don't know if there ever was liberal bias in the media, but it certainly hasn't existed for the last fifteen years.
And today the media gives us a Bush campaign speech as news! Where's Kerry's 90 seconds rebuttal? Where's the fact checking on this so-called presidential speech?
i think you killed pandagon.net with your mighty traffic powers, db.
Holden - Strong finisher.
Yep. I been saying...and he's doing it.
Thank you John Kerry, so damned much.
At this point, Bush/Cheney better hope they lose because everyone has their name and number now. They would never make it all the way through a second term.
All your spin are belong to us.
What? Nobody watched Kerry on Dr. Phil?
He did really well, along with Theresa. I don't know how many million watch Dr. Phil, but IIRC it is almost Oprah numbers. Kerry needs to do a couple more of these "soft" interviews before the election to get the women vote higher.
I still have the sneaking suspicion that all along, Kerry has been doing his version of the rope-a-dope ... letting his opponent punch himself out.
i think you killed pandagon.net with your mighty traffic powers, db.
garth
Yeah, but what a way to go.
We dealt with Iran differently than we have Iraq partly because Iran has not yet, as Iraq did, violated 12 years of resolutions by the U.N. Security Council
Dick Cheney would leave the security of the United States up to the UN and let countries such as France make the decisions regarding our safety.
Don't forget that one of the reasons for the silence in between the conventions was money. After Boston, Kerry was limited on what he could spend. I halfway think a large part of the purpose of the swiftliars was just to get Kerry to spend all his dough during Augest. He kept cool and retained parity on the money front. Now we need to bang on the nets for more earned media to keep parity with a liar who can simply say he's making a presidental policy speech.
Hear, hear, Dunkin. I've emerged from my funk and begun to consider the
possibility of a President Kerry.
Smitty Werbenmanjensen | Email | Homepage
Me too, but now I'm worrying about what
the Republicans will do him when he
wins. Not to mention the magnitude of
the mess he has to clean up.
Let me finish! [smiles]
You know, I really can't believe that BushCo keeps on with the "Iraq violated UN resolutions for 12 years" line.
The US unabashedly violates UN resolutions on Israel and has for years.
Let's invade us next!
Let me finish! [grits teeth]
I'm fact checking everybody here by going to factcheck.com, and it doesn't work! And believe this, Georgesoros.com is down, too? What next, Atrios?
we are the cat and the stretched fur from scene 23
yrrr
yrrr
yrrr
etc
Here's an idea:
Ask your favorite Republican friend what UN Resolutions Iraq violated.
I'd bet that a good 90% will say "Iraq violated the no-fly zones".
At this point, you own your friend. The no-fly zones were not imposed as part of any UN resolution. They were fabricated by the US and UK.
Let me finish! [grits teeth]
Laura to Dubya Friday Night
It's hard work!
Cheney was wrong (surprise, surprise) ... he meant factcheck.org. But isn't it great that Soros' site is getting so much traffic because of the Veep's gaff?
What I loved is watching Edwards sticking it to Cheney with a big smile. That is a strategy guaranteed to cause steam to explode from a wingnut's ears. You get your point across but without seeming mean or shrill. And it is hard to defend against.
It's really hard work when Laura won't flip/flop...
Clear the way there, Jonathan!
Way for the President’s marshal! Way for the government cannon!
Way for the Federal foot and dragoons—and the apparitions copiously tumbling.
I love to look on the stars and stripes—I hope the fifes will play Yankee Doodle.
"Ask your favorite Republican friend what UN Resolutions Iraq violated.
I'd bet that a good 90% will say "Iraq violated the no-fly zones".
-RCSanders
You give Republicans too much credit. 90%? I'd say 90% couldn't give an answer.
Kerry's a closer.
The US unabashedly violates UN resolutions on Israel and has for years.
Let's invade us next!
You were joking, I think, RC, but I really think there are parts of our nation's cities that could use a military intervention.
They could use new schools, and new sewer and water systems, and free health care, and improved roads. They could use the time and attention our leaders are so freely giving to Iraq.
Now, I know posse comitatus and all that stuff, but seriously ...
A.
And yeah, this is looking good now. I'm not going to stop being scared shitless until election day, though, because .... Gah.
It's AFTER Bush loses that I'm gonna be scared. This is one election where we need to take the approach radio stations do with DJs...toss 'em out on the spot, first thing in the morning, and change all the locks.
Bush has two months to pull some kind of bullshit. Fortunately, I think these guys are both isolated and under surveillance, so I doubt they can get away with much. They've made too many enemies.
Athenae of the vowels, are you suggesting that the damage done to the White House in January will be as a result of Shrub's heels dragging as he's pulled along? His little fingernails scratching the furniture as he tries to hold on? It's hard work removing the (p)Resident!
>I must say it is awfully nice to have the boards free of the kind of whining that they were full of there for quite a few months.<
You must mean the kind of "whining" that was happening about the same time as the entire shake up of the KE team?
They could use new schools, and new sewer and water systems, and free health care, and improved roads. They could use the time and attention our leaders are so freely giving to Iraq.
Hey, that would be nation-building...we can't have that!
Let me finish! [grits teeth]
Laura to Dubya Friday Night
It's hard work!
Dubya to Laura Friday Night
You're no Dan Quayle.
GWPDA, I think he'll hide in the tunnels or something, with packets of twinkies to sustain him, until the Special Forces come in and find him.
It will be, as they say in my country, fucking hilarious.
A.
And to add to the sweetness, according to Steve Gilliard, the swiftboat ads have blown up real good in Bush's face.
http://tinyurl.com/4hsya
The sheer nastiness of the ads have caused more voters to move towards Kerry than to move towards Bush. Advantage: Kerry
You must mean the kind of "whining" that was happening about the same time as the entire shake up of the KE team?
Anonymous
This gets my vote for "Most Obscure Comment on This Thread."
Hey, o'reilly. Spin this:
Iraqi Arms Threat Was Waning, Inspector Says
Hussein Had Almost No Nuclear Weapons Program by 2003
By Walter Pincus
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, October 6, 2004; 4:00 PM
Charles Duelfer, the chief U.S. weapons investigator in Iraq, told Congress today that Saddam Hussein destroyed his stocks of chemical and biological weapons and agents in 1991 and 1992 and that his nuclear weapons program had decayed to almost nothing by 2003.
Had this come out last night, Edwards could have trounced him just by repeating "liar liar pants on fire."
His little fingernails scratching the furniture as he tries to hold on? It's hard work removing the (p)Resident!
We could always try dilation and extraction, to make a not-very-tasteful joke.
sekmet-
Like it. Too bad Steve did not provide a link, but that's good stuff.
Joe Scarborough
Speak for yourself, Ron.
You know, I got in trouble last week when I said George Bush lost that debate.
I tell you, tonight, no doubt about it. Edwards got obliterated by Dick Cheney.
Joe
Would you like a shoe horn to eat that CROW PIE????
Phil -
Not tasteful, but very appropriate.
beware hubris.
-J.T.
Athenae of the vowels, there are no more twinkies - the Shrub economy bankrupted the bakery.... He'll have to dine on hardtack and jerky packed in by Barney.
BTW, here's an interesting link out of Phoenix, in preparation for the Tempe debate KPHO TV
Bloggers and e-mailers have been largely reponsible for post debate spn. Like it or not, we have been instrumental in making BuCheny look like the lying bastards they are!
A toast to all of us!
Philalethes
YOU are going to talk about obscure?
And let's not forget that Fahrenheit 911 was released today on DVD!
Caution taken, JT.
But tomorrow we may all die in a terrorist attack, saith Tom Ridge, so I choose to enjoy my momentum while I may.
Gather ye rosebuds, Eschatonians.
IMHO, that is.
A.
The media isn't helping us at all, though. I don't know if there ever was liberal bias in the media, but it certainly hasn't existed for the last fifteen years.
Certainly not since 1979, when the idea of a Reagan presidency was no longer a huge joke.
And let's not forget that Fahrenheit 911 was released today on DVD!
MisterX
I went to the local grocery store at lunch today and saw the rack - but no DVDs, they were sold out.
Of course, I live in Austin.
This is exactly right.
It's all about owning newscycles from here until November 2nd.
At this point, you own your friend. The no-fly zones were not imposed as part of any UN resolution. They were fabricated by the US and UK.
In violation of one of the same UN resolutions that Iraq is accused of violating, too. So, its pretty hard to whine about Iraq violating UN resolutions for 12 years when the US and UK were violating one of the same resolutions for that whole period.
So if that was a valid excuse for invasion, then Iraq had just as much excuse to invade and carry out regime change in the US as the US did in Iraq.
I'm old enough to remember when Spiro
Agnew was implying that the editorial
board of the New York Times was a hotbed
of Trotskyites.
They've managed to completely own the post-debate spin for both of these debates, highlighting what a nitwit Bush was and highlighting what a liar Dick Cheney was.
Largely due to the fact that the Republicans don't have a candidate who's worth a tin shit.
Congrats. Dem.'s now actually CAN hit the broad side of a barn.
easy with the compliments. this thing isn't over, and kerry should have this thing in the bag by now, with an opponent who can't even speak english.
SPANK HIM! SPANK HIM! LET US SEE THE TERRIFIED FACE HE RESERVES FOR BEAUTIFUL MIND, AFTER HE'S DRUNKENLY DEFIED HIS PUSSY DAD!
vote now on the debate at
www.cnn.com/wolf
top left.
What I see is extraordinary cooperation between grass roots Democrats who are fired up with passion for our democracy like I've never seen in my lifetime, and the DNC, which, despite its disgusting corruption, center-rightism, support of NAFTA, abandonment of its base, virtual silence during buildup to war, and all its sins, nevertheless has certains skills and experience critical to running a national campaign. We compliment each other--and will have to work out our differences after the election. These two forces have not come together in this focused way since the early 1960s, and have not had such a profound set of problems to solve since the 1930s.
The grass roots side has been enormously boosted by the revolution in technology, providing alternative news sources and quick turnaround on government and media lies. Kudos to those who have worked this change--you HAVE made the difference!
Problems ARE GOING TO ARISE because the grass roots and the Dem powers-that-be have gotten so far apart since the Reagan "era of greed"--and also, Bush Inc. has been such a disaster in so many ways that Kerry is inheriting an unprecedented mess on every front. I sometimes think this is the fascist plan--make the Dems clean up their messes, then blame them for everything, because people forget. And keep pulling every policy area further and further to the right, so that true fairness and justice begins to look like looneytoons.
Anyway, it's not going to be easy to restore fairness and justice while coping with a projected $4 trillion deficit and the horror in Iraq. Kerry may see 500,000 people marching against HIM one day.
Still, this is magic time--that the people can rise up, that we still have the power to "throw the bums out," that our democracy still lives, that we can still make our revolutionary forebears proud.
Bush Inc. has much to fear if they lose (but I do expect a series of unbelievable, shocking, outrageous, blanket pardons come January). They are extremely dangerous people. They are not going to go easily--and then we have a whole new set of problems to reform government and politics working with a centrist administration, and keeping Kerry-Edwards safe from the right-wing hate machine.
And the healing. Oh, the healing that needs to be done! My, my...
Philalethes
YOU are going to talk about obscure?
Anonymous
Nope. I'm just going to throw a piece of troll-bait, let you sink your teeth into it, and pull you out of your hole.
It worked, huh? Since you can't resist dancing to my tune, everyone now knows what that first comment was all about. Ya got no discretion, troll.
thanks, Atrios for getting me the phoner for the Mehlman post conference. I loved asking the only question and hearing him flee.
Simeon--
My $15 matches your wife's.
I really can't afford this too much anymore.
Maybe I ought to put my "My Pet Goat" out to auction.
can anybody doubt that the "war on terror" is being played politically when an al qaeda tape surfaces the next day after the debate.
but it looks like that didn't gain any traction. maybe it held down kerry's numbers some, who knows.
it's like we've all come to expect auspiciously timed alerts as routine and nobody raises objections.
Who do you think won last night's vice presidential debate?
Vice President Dick Cheney 37% 76016 votes
Sen. John Edwards 63% 129567 votes
What? Nobody watched Kerry on Dr. Phil?
While I love Big John and THK, I hate Dr. Phil with the passion of 1000 suns. He is a overated gasbag.
Fuck Dr. Phil and that Jared guy from Subway too.
I am hearing stories that even Mississippi is starting to turn against Mr. Blink-Blink. With Mississippi, it could be because of Haley Barbour deciding to ruthlessly cut Medicaid. The cuts were supposed to have gone into effect last Friday. And Barbour is closely associated with Bush.
A question I'd love to see asked of Bush during the Town Hall debate:
You vowed to uphold the Constitution. Have you ever actually read it? Really? All of it?
"I'm old enough to remember Spiro Agnew." -- steve
That is enough said. No need to go further. I'm someone else, that old, who remembers well.
ddebate poll (cheneys winning)
worldnet daily (via Tbogg) (requires email addr.)
http://worldnetdaily.com/polls/
i...m95mv9095kmmcsd
Kay:
Did you ever hear a band called Iron
Prostate? (Seriously).
They have a great song called Rock n Roll
Nursing Home.
GWPDA:
took the poll, I think I came across as liberal. not sure.
“I think Iraq is the most serious and imminent threat to our country. And I think Iraq and Saddam Hussein present the most serious and most imminent threat.”
http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/
.Mus...ecording001.mp3
Asshats.
WaPo daily tracking has Bush down 2%, Kerry up 2%. W now only up 2% overall. Enjoy it while it lasts, bitch.
Noticed the latest "fair and balanced" word game on Lou Dobbs. Instead of using debate, which would of course acknowledge the possibility of having a winner and a LOOOSER (and we know how that worked out) he used the phrase presidential presentations.
It.Never.Ends.
-
easy with the compliments. this thing isn't over, and kerry should have this thing in the bag by now, with an opponent who can't even speak english.
Anonymous
Kerry does have this thing in the bag right now, but never fear for we are vigilent in our work and desire to replace the chimp with a Man of Honor.
"I think they got it." --- Tena
Yes, Tena, I think they got it too.
By the way, I loved your letter.
krsaz - Agree with you on Dr. Phil. I watched because of Kerry being on, and wanted to see how he would come across in that setting. Kerry was very personable and the "great dad" that anybody would have been proud of. Also it puts Kerry in front of a lot of viewers that probably don't watch much hard news.
T James etal. You guys are just a tad early in self-congrats.
But that's not what worries me. It's the concept that the Repugs (the common AM radio listening type)could make the mental connection of the blogosphere informing public debate vis-a-vis the SCLM.
Let's be humble in our victories to the point of not letting the cat out of the bag. A little mock self-defeatism, and they really won't know how or why they've been hit.
If you really must toot the horn, wait at least 4 weeks.
.
ddebate poll (cheneys winning)
worldnet daily (via Tbogg) (requires email addr.)
-j2
I love how the poll is stacked in Cheney's favor. We have 4 positive choices for Edwards and 2 positive choices for Cheney. What kind of idiots do they think their readers are?
"Of course I've read the Constitution, it's so funny that you would think I haven't read it."
W
Kevin! Good to hear from you!
I have to ask, do you think your ex-wife is fucking a Democrat?
Are you still working for an water-well drilling operation after a spell of unemployment?
Are you still "more afraid of Kerry than Gore"?
Would you explain to us your theory of Kerry's "secret" plan to take your guns away?
Inquiring minds WANT TO KNOW!!!!
Just posted on campaigndesk.org: why insta-polls matter:
No doubt the rise of blogs and instant polling has had an impact on how quickly the CW forms....The evidence simply piled up too quickly for the spinners to push a contradictory message.
The arguement that these polls are methodologically suspect and statistically meaningless is valid, of course, but at the same time (at least for now, until the public turns to something else), they are critical in forming public opinion, and thus it is important for partisans on either side to seize on them and not let the other side get the upper hand.
And now The Dick's reptilian twin Bill Schneider is trying to sell the bottle of snake oil that since the VP debate mentioned Kerry twice as much as Bush, it's really a great strateregical win for the Halliburtistration.
One more angry E-mail straight to the CNN shred bin unless Begala comes on pretty quick.
Oh, and earlier CNN HLN had a live report which led with the vaporous "Saddam had intentions" spin on the CIA briefing and buried the "no WMD" findings farther down in the story in a "blink and you miss it" moment. Aargh.
-
-
Kay - thanks.
J2, looks like you blew out Haloscan.
*sigh*
Can someone explain why the debate moderator is addressed by his/her first name while the candidates are addressed by their P/VP/Senator titles? What is this false and one-sided familiarity supposed to accomplish?
Nice to see pats on the back. However, the battle for the minds and hearts of voters still rages. Over the next three weeks theGOP will be inundating America's churches with voter guides, et al. Does the Kerry-Edwards Camp have an action plan in place to reach this group?
Steve,
Seriously, NO. I am exactly who I say I am.
I am printing your question though. I have a younger cousin who's going to love that you asked that.
from Reader DP (Josh Marshall @TPM)
"As a trial lawyer, Edwards learned not to allow a witness to explain. Had he challenged Cheney on each lie, Cheney could have explained them away. A better trial tactic, I am not sure about a debate, is to let the falsehood sit there but point it out later to the jury or the judge. By not letting Cheney explain away the lies, he is stuck with them and the public will act as the jury".
I think Edwards knew EXACTLY what he was doing and thank goodness since the Fourth Estate and most of its lame ass "talking heads" are so disgustingly pro Bush.
No wonder JK said he couldn't wait "for the day this fall" when Edwards "stands up for our vision and goes toe-to-toe with Dick Cheney."
Steve and Kay -- you're getting me all weepy with nostalgia here.
This morning (yesterday? -- the days all blend together after a while) Bob Edwards was talking to one of Spiro Agnew's old speechwriters. I didn't know it was William Safire who coined "nattering nabobs of negativism."
Those were the days, my friends.
krsaz, what did Kerry say on Phil? Did Phil slime all over him and did Kerry smile that smile that just charms me senseless?
*smacks self's crush on Kerry*
A.
Why I thought Edwards triumphed over Cheney by Andrew Sullivan senior editor at TNR
Inevitably, at this stage of the game, especially after the wild swings of the race in the last month or so, people are getting committed to seeing their side win. ... But most of the people actually rooting for one side or the other are not the people who will decide the election. Those people are undecideds. And for them, it seems to me, the debate wasn't even close: Edwards won.
Of course, the question is...is Karl Rove and Bush sandbagging right now? Letting us make all the noise and performing badly in debates so that just by stepping up the competition later they will give the appearance of coming on strong?
Athenae of the vowels:
I posted that I wouldn't watch Dr. Phil even though I have big love for JFK and THK. I hate Dr. Phil, just the thought of watching his show gives me that throw-up taste in the back of my throat.
But thanks for asking.
>>They've managed to completely own the post-debate spin for both of these debates... At least after the first debate (I didn't notice this time).<
I think a lot of people are not noticing this time. We slacked off, a bit tipsy at the wheel after the first victory.
First debate spin ownership: A
Second: B- or worse.
I expected this post-debate to spin huge for Kerry-Edwards when I heard the sharp daggers Edwards was throwing into Cheney. I was literally near tears when I heard some of his first points hit home. And then when some online cable TV major polls were reflecting the victory I completely felt Edwards has taken, I saw a score more dramatic than Thursday's.
Instead, the mish-mushy media conclusion emerged by this morning: A draw.
As happy as we can be with Thursday's outcome and Edwards obvious dominance in the debate last night, we should actually be noticing a little more carefully what we might have won in this post-debate, and even slap our wrists for not getting the spin-win we could have this time around.
I think we did okay, but we're a bit too liberally with the back-patting for round two, IMHO.
Seems to me, the weakness this time, at least in blog/campaign/activist email land, was failing to get all of the immediate email links, web form links, talking point tips etc. out in widespread force immediately after the debates. Certainly there were a number of poll links posted quickly -- at Kos, here, and in the post-debate Kerry-Edwards email.
But only just now am I getting the links to the letters-to-editors and other important in-roads to media spin that we successfully commanded the first time. I didn't have to think or dig to get my post-debate messages out the first time. This time I did. I have a feeling I wasn't alone.
My point: little excuse next time to not have all the lists ship-shape and ready to go before the debate. Emails, web clicks, and talking points, phone numbers, and faxes should be in the hands of the citizen army, ready to blast the minute the next debate finishes.
This was not a draw, and it shouldn't have ever had a chance to be spun as one.
Re Drudge's pen gambit - check out the new site isbushwired.com - a clearing house for info re the mysterious bulge on his back during debate 1. Can anyone add anything meaningful to this site re this matter? Before debate 2 would be the best ..
Athenae - It was me that watched Kerry on Dr. Phil, krsaz commented on he could not watch Dr. Phil.
what did Kerry say on Phil?
It was all about raising his daughters, how his family handled the divorce, how he developed a relationship with his daughters to where they could talk to him about anything. He talked about the one time he spanked one of his daughters, and never could do it again. Also about the merging of Kerry's family with the Heinz's. It was very warm and complimentary. And yes he smiled that smile.
Intro:
Your post implies that they can step up the competition, they are out of ammo and the shrub is on the stage alone for the next two debates. How can they step up when they have no record to stand on?
posting this on all the threads i check into. any of you who visit other blogs repost please
fair.org's list of media addresses
i don't know that letters will make the difference, but it seems like they are having an effect.
*smacks self's crush on Kerry*
me too Athenae, since 1971, well, it's probably different, but
John Kerry Kicks Ass!!!
Hey Kay:
I just meant that the song suddenly
made a lot of sense to me. When you
think about it, nursing homes already
have a lot of women with blue hair.
I can't wait for first generation punks
to arrive.
Hey Geezee:
Safire's been dining out on that credit
for years. There will probably be a
variation on it on his tombstone.
We have to keep up the pressure--it's not over yet.
Like Magic Johnson (God bless him) used to say:
"It's winnin' time."
But they still haven't knocked down the $87 Billion and "don't support our troops" lies.
You know, it has always been a source
of great joy to me that there lives
amongst us a celebrity actually named
Magic Johnson.
Curious:
I checked out isbushwired.com and I admit that I wondered about that when I saw the camera angle from the back. Great shot of Bush hunched over the podium like the world was beating down on him.
Anyway, the thought occured to me that after his performance in the Thursday night drubbing, I hope he keeps wearing it. He is obviously not quick enough to make the argument work and his brain was probably swimming listening to voices in his ear. Nes Anchors do have to work at that particualr skill of listening and talking at the same time. Bush has proven time and again that he ain't a great listener.
So I say, wire his ass up again, hopefully he will perform with the same stilted, disjointed, angry, grumpy way.
Off Topic:
Limbaugh's appeal fails.
http://tinyurl.com/6rgzp
It's funny how the fat bastard likes to make up rights that he has previously denied for Clinton. Like the notion that he should be notified about a search warrant before it is issued so he can challenge it. He can challenge it all he wants but he can't be notified about it before hand.
That sort of nullifies the purpose of the warrant doesn't it?
The whole purpose is to prevent the subject of the search warrant from being aware in order to prevent his or her from destroying the evidence from which they seek.
Hypocrite.
MYOB'
.
there was a moving segment on pbs newshour that countered the freeper "you can't support the troops without supporting the war" lie.
LEE HOCHBERG: Ruger's son-in-law and nephew are in the 1st Armored Division in Baghdad. Her husband, Arthur, and her father, were in the Air Force.
LIETTA RUGER: I am not from the peace movement. I am not Jane Fonda on the street. I am not a leftover '60s protester. I am a military brat, wife of a veteran. But Vietnam taught us something. We have to do critical thinking when we give permission for our country to go to war.
LEE HOCHBERG: The Rugers say their son-in-law doesn't object to their criticism of the war. He shared his thoughts with us by phone, requesting we shield his identity.
SON-IN-LAW [soldier currently in iraq]: To go to war on the basis that we went to war on, I don't agree with that. And then to get lied to by the president. We know people are speaking out against the war, not against us. We're not dumb. We know.
Fielding Mellish:
I think Lou Dobbs was calling the debates "Presidential Presentations" in protest of the fact that all the rules -- not being able to question one another, etc. -- made real debate unlikely or impossible.
BTW, I'm kinda likin' Aaron Brown lately. Am I high?
chris/tx, thanks for the recap, sorry about the post mix-up. Stupid sleep-deprived brain.
Happy thoughts of that smile going to comfort me tonight, that's for sure.
A.
kerry could easily point out that soldiers themselves are voicing dissatisfaction with how ineptly things are being handled.
what will the bush response be? accuse the soldier under fire of being unpatriotic? ha! i'd like to see that one.
OT:
Does anyone else think that today Bush looks like he inhaled some kind of happy pill?
Peace Patriot
"...keeping Kerry-Edwards safe from the right-wing hate machine."
So let's see, 1 GOP camapign office shot at, another stormed by protestors, a third ransacked...
Who needs to be kept safe from whom?
"And let's not forget that Fahrenheit 911 was released today on DVD!
MisterX
I went to the local grocery store at lunch today and saw the rack - but no DVDs, they were sold out.
Of course, I live in Austin.
Holden Caulfield | Email | Homepage | 10.06.04 - 5:35 pm | # "
Dear Holden: I just moved to Memphis and I'm betting I can get an entire freakin' crate of 'em here at a discount. This town makes Dallas look liberal. Only Atrios and Talking Point Memo keep me from feeling completely isolated from the world of rational liberals.
Bless you, John and John!
I can't imagine how hard this must be for both of you and your families. Thanks for being willing.
It definitely feels like news organizations are paying more attention to our emails and blogs, like CNN putting the poll back up, but what happens when the process becomes much more balanced (with repubs figuring out how to delete the cookies to retake polls) and entrenched...Do we become part of the problem?
Atrios
i will save my kudos till November 3rd now is not the time for pats on the back but hard work yet to be done
Hey, Bill, payback's a bitch, hey? Fuckers stole Florida against their own "states rights" philosophy. They want to know if the election should be left up to Supreme Court of Florida, and of course, it should have. If they have respect for the law. But they don't, and it's coming back to bite them on the ass. I say trash the whole damn repig organization; after all, they have proven time and again to be enemies of the state and the people. Enemies, like they call Dems and Liberals. Enemies, to be defeated and crushed. Enemies, to be investigated and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Enemies, to be exposed as the selfish liars and power-mad hypocrites that they are. Rigging voting machines, disenfranchising minority and elderly voters, lie, lie, lie. They deserve the lash and the stocks, not protection.
THANK YOU!
We're really shitty at making sure our successes are celebrated so I really appreciate you taking the time to notice what's going right.
Kudos to bloggers everywhere - you've been the catalyst of an astonishing revolution, thank you, thank you, thank you.
re bush campaign offices being shot at or being ransacked...
sounds like a new version of the "clintonistas vandalized the whithouse" scam the bushies pulled earlier.
Ronjazz
Dude. Get a life.
One thing I think Edwards failed to do was respond well to the accusation that he's been absent from the Sentate. He's very accomplished and has served on four committees.
Neither he nor Kerry have been good at highlighting their own accomplishments in the Senate. I've heard very politically active Democrats saying that Kerry hasn't really done anything (!!). I hope Kerry tries to change this perception.
blindsided by the Swift Boat nonsense
You have to be kidding.
As soon as Kerry moves to Vietnam to be among the only people on the planet who think his memory is worth commemorating, then he will have finally seen the last of the people who are exposing his many crimes against humanity and freedom.
Or he can just sign the form 180. Either way I don't care, his name is mud.
papertiger=big major asshole, and i might ask where were you in sixty nine. either way big major asshole.
gee guys my heart really isn't in this any longer. I still hate Qerry but the President turns out to be a sub-average chimp. I might vote for Nader. I don't know what to do.
THEY CALL ME PAPERTIGER
Either way I don't care, his name is mud.
papertiger
That's PRESIDENT Mud to you, fuckface!
Kudos to kerry's campaign because of their post debate spin? Sheeit, a smart fifteen year old could shoot the fish in that GOP barrel.
Or he can just sign the form 180
Maybe you could do a FOIA suit. Like when Bush wouldn't sign Form 180. Then you wouldn't have to cry about it so much.
Bush hides from doctors, the Vietcong, his daughters, the anthrax killer (someone he knows well, you can bet).
Now Bush has to hide from Kerry.
This is beyond funny. Cheney is hiding from nearly everyone so...on with the nonshow.
yeah, what did happen to pastaliar?
I wouldn't be so hasty, Atrios. Yes, they did a stunning job after both debates but that doesn't let them off the multiple hooks for August. They only managed to regain ground they so royally lost via ineptitude/incompetence in the first place.
well, he does have a point about being broadsided. this swiftboat stuff was being posted by dems during the primary, calling attention to the fact that this was going to be one of rove's line of attack. wingers were discussing this long before the convention. really no excuse to have fallen asleep at the wheel. if the rank and file were able to call it early, why did well paid strategist not see it coming?
I would like to compliment the DNC for being lying assholes!
I would like to compliment Dave for being my asshole. Now get to work, Dave!
I would like to compliment Dave for being my asshole. Now get to work, Dave!
Athenae of the vowels (Doesn't that sound like the name of a semi-legendary Irish-Greek demi-goddess? I like it), you're not the only one who really likes that warm smile. It really lights up his whole self. I bet that appearance on Dr Phil made a big impression among the security moms who watch that kind of thing. (Oh, if our man could do a few segments with Oprah we'd be all set. Come to Chicago, Johnny! You know she wants to sit down and chat with you!!)
Give credit to the Clinton people, definitely. Kerry's people are inept and not ready for primetime, or at least not ready for combat outside of the microcosm of MA. It's a different world in the rest of the country, and Clinton's people understand that. Mary Beth Cahill seems like a schoolmarm/librarian, bless her heart.
I think it's no coincidence that the Kerry campaign has turned things around since the ex-Clinton crew came on board.
I think that there is something going on beyond "winning the spin." I think that members of the main stream media are now so chagrined at having uncritically bought into Bush and company's lies going into the war that they're finally showing a little backbone. The failure of the Iraq war strategy and the continued demonstrable lying have made it possible for them to get "gotcha" type articles past their corporate media masters. Those masters, I think, are shrugging their shoulders, looking the Bushies in the eye and saying, "look, you've screwed it up so bad that we can't cover for you anymore." Plus, they know that the drama of watching a President fall from grace makes for ratings-building entertainment. So they give their Bushie buddies that, "sorry, there's nothing I can do" shrug and begin to let the chips fall where they should have landed all along.
The one comment I wish Edwards had made and wish Kerry would make goes something like this, "I hope the major media will follow up on these comments, report on which of them are misleading or worse and that the American people will base their judgement about the President's believability on the facts."
I think that kind of challenge would put the press in a tough spot. And who knows? Perhaps they'd rise to the challenge. The conditions, I think (see last post) are ripe.
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