I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
He's still not going to blogroll ya...
He's still not going to blogroll ya...
I remain confused as to why Dems, and especially Dem bloggers, take Amy Sullivan seriously.
But I guess that makes me a bad Democrat--so when I decide to vote Republican in 2008 (as I said before, Kasich over Vlasic), Amy can be happy.
I remain confused as to why Dems, and especially Dem bloggers, take Amy Sullivan seriously.
But I guess that makes me a bad Democrat--so when I decide to vote Republican in 2008 (as I said before, Kasich over Vlasic), Amy can be happy.
I just drink straight from the bottle now.
It saves time.
I just drink straight from the bottle now.
It saves time.
Amy Sullivan is from the Lieberman party.
Amy Sullivan is from the Lieberman party.
A drink indeed.
How about the the whole bottle?
Your alternate reality is now in effect. Thanks for playing.
A drink indeed.
How about the the whole bottle?
Your alternate reality is now in effect. Thanks for playing.
We get your point that Amy is projecting, but trying to conflate that into somehow creating a culture that murders pregnant women is, well... a stretch.
It is well established that pregnancy can exacerbate domestic violence. I'm not sure what Amy's somewhat muddled attempt to find an abortion-debate-middleground, has to do with it.
We get your point that Amy is projecting, but trying to conflate that into somehow creating a culture that murders pregnant women is, well... a stretch.
It is well established that pregnancy can exacerbate domestic violence. I'm not sure what Amy's somewhat muddled attempt to find an abortion-debate-middleground, has to do with it.
I remain confused as to why Dems, and especially Dem bloggers, take Amy Sullivan seriously.
I look forward to a world where Amy Sullivan can shout out from a seldom-visited blog (or street corner) and Atrios has radio, newspaper, television and other hyper-media exposure.
I remain confused as to why Dems, and especially Dem bloggers, take Amy Sullivan seriously.
I look forward to a world where Amy Sullivan can shout out from a seldom-visited blog (or street corner) and Atrios has radio, newspaper, television and other hyper-media exposure.
OT
Talk about a united front. Listening to the talking heads this a.m., the dems, to a man, have been saying it is not necessarily Rummy's fault, but W's policy that is at fault. It is W's policy that got us into this mess, and it is W's responsibility to change the policy. They are all using the same phrasing, and repeating it over and over again.
Go team.
Now if we could just find John Kerry.
OT
Talk about a united front. Listening to the talking heads this a.m., the dems, to a man, have been saying it is not necessarily Rummy's fault, but W's policy that is at fault. It is W's policy that got us into this mess, and it is W's responsibility to change the policy. They are all using the same phrasing, and repeating it over and over again.
Go team.
Now if we could just find John Kerry.
I just drink straight from the bottle now.
It saves time.
Central Scrutinizer
Me too, and Stoli because it's great and cheap, 70% and cranberi tasting. I walked out of the liquor mart holding the bottle by the neck and the cashier protested he had to put it in a bag and I gave him an especially harsh look I guess and he shut up.
I just drink straight from the bottle now.
It saves time.
Central Scrutinizer
Me too, and Stoli because it's great and cheap, 70% and cranberi tasting. I walked out of the liquor mart holding the bottle by the neck and the cashier protested he had to put it in a bag and I gave him an especially harsh look I guess and he shut up.
Abortion--war's almost over. I'm just feeling like there is a growing climate against legalized abortion. And, if there's anything we've seen, all the Repubs need is a 'climate' to win no matter what we do.
Abortion--war's almost over. I'm just feeling like there is a growing climate against legalized abortion. And, if there's anything we've seen, all the Repubs need is a 'climate' to win no matter what we do.
This fucking chanting just has to stop.
It causes many a goddamned teardrop.
If it's sorry you're not,
You are just a robot.
Apologize, you bastards, chop-chop.
This fucking chanting just has to stop.
It causes many a goddamned teardrop.
If it's sorry you're not,
You are just a robot.
Apologize, you bastards, chop-chop.
I refuse to pop any of Bob zits because I regard each one as a gift from Jesus. And even more so his hemorrhoids
-Liddy Dole
I refuse to pop any of Bob zits because I regard each one as a gift from Jesus. And even more so his hemorrhoids
-Liddy Dole
Scenes from Richard Brautigan's "The Abortion" (starting on about page 173 in Tijuana) will come to pass again.
Count on it.
Scenes from Richard Brautigan's "The Abortion" (starting on about page 173 in Tijuana) will come to pass again.
Count on it.
KC - there is still the SCOTUS to contend with and Roe is part of a line of decisions that it is going to be difficult to overrule. The result is conceivably that it will roll back all they way to Griswold. If that happens, the right to sexual privacy is gone and that can bleed over into other areas.
Frankly, despite Scalia, I don't think that the SCOTUS is going to be all that eager to overrule Roe.
KC - there is still the SCOTUS to contend with and Roe is part of a line of decisions that it is going to be difficult to overrule. The result is conceivably that it will roll back all they way to Griswold. If that happens, the right to sexual privacy is gone and that can bleed over into other areas.
Frankly, despite Scalia, I don't think that the SCOTUS is going to be all that eager to overrule Roe.
I just drink straight from the bottle now.
Cheap bastard, buy a flask - Doesn't scare the little kids as much.
Was in the liquor store the other day, they were selling flasks that looked like cell phones. The antennae was the cap. Great for you working people.
I just drink straight from the bottle now.
Cheap bastard, buy a flask - Doesn't scare the little kids as much.
Was in the liquor store the other day, they were selling flasks that looked like cell phones. The antennae was the cap. Great for you working people.
Great--now all Democrats are going to be asked to choose sides between two strident and militant groups of people who consider slight distinctions in abortion policy to be the defining point of political identity.
I'm "pro-choice for a reasonable period of time, but then after viability I think there should be a really good reason to have an abortion," but there's no ideological space for a attitude like this. The militant pro-choice people call this position "anti-woman" and the militant pro-life people call it "baby murdering."
Well, you know what? I refuse to be dragged into this stupid, asinine battle between two groups with unreasonable positions. If this means I'm unwelcome in the Democratic party, well then I will happily go join a party that takes a position that reflects reality.
Great--now all Democrats are going to be asked to choose sides between two strident and militant groups of people who consider slight distinctions in abortion policy to be the defining point of political identity.
I'm "pro-choice for a reasonable period of time, but then after viability I think there should be a really good reason to have an abortion," but there's no ideological space for a attitude like this. The militant pro-choice people call this position "anti-woman" and the militant pro-life people call it "baby murdering."
Well, you know what? I refuse to be dragged into this stupid, asinine battle between two groups with unreasonable positions. If this means I'm unwelcome in the Democratic party, well then I will happily go join a party that takes a position that reflects reality.
I keep a small flask in my twat. Strom used to lick it, then take a sip.
I keep a small flask in my twat. Strom used to lick it, then take a sip.
we should be apologizing for things we aren't ashamed of
This must be one of those "we've got to learn to reach out to people with our ideas even though elections aren't about ideas" things.
.
we should be apologizing for things we aren't ashamed of
This must be one of those "we've got to learn to reach out to people with our ideas even though elections aren't about ideas" things.
.
Abortion after viability is illegal.
It would help if you actually understood the laws.
Abortion after viability is illegal.
It would help if you actually understood the laws.
It's all fucked up.
It's all fucked up.
Was in the liquor store the other day, they were selling flasks that looked like cell phones. The antennae was the cap. Great for you working people.
chris/tx
No way!! I need one of those and I hardly drink!
Was in the liquor store the other day, they were selling flasks that looked like cell phones. The antennae was the cap. Great for you working people.
chris/tx
No way!! I need one of those and I hardly drink!
What to drink?
HEMLOCK
What to drink?
HEMLOCK
Say what you like about Amy Sullivan (and she's harldy on my A-List), she's dead right on this. This is about the STUPIDEST idea that N.O.W. has ever proposed. It is one thing to hem and haw and apologize for being pro-choice; it is another thing to rub it in the face of the anti-abortion movement in a way that fulfills their every fantasy about "godless liberals."
It is this kind of upper-middle class single-issue moral masturbation that has brought the Democratic party to its news. Unbelievable.
Say what you like about Amy Sullivan (and she's harldy on my A-List), she's dead right on this. This is about the STUPIDEST idea that N.O.W. has ever proposed. It is one thing to hem and haw and apologize for being pro-choice; it is another thing to rub it in the face of the anti-abortion movement in a way that fulfills their every fantasy about "godless liberals."
It is this kind of upper-middle class single-issue moral masturbation that has brought the Democratic party to its news. Unbelievable.
Hey, Atrios, I just picked some oranges and I've got a bottle of champagne ready - mimosas for everybody!
Hey, Atrios, I just picked some oranges and I've got a bottle of champagne ready - mimosas for everybody!
We are damned if we do and damned when we do.
We are damned if we do and damned when we do.
I think they have telephones that look like liquor bottles too.
I think they have telephones that look like liquor bottles too.
No way!! I need one of those and I hardly drink!
jsg
Huh?
No way!! I need one of those and I hardly drink!
jsg
Huh?
I'm "pro-choice for a reasonable period of time, but then after viability I think there should be a really good reason to have an abortion,"
We are already there in reality. I'm one degree removed from the neonate field of medicine, no doctor will perform an abortion on a healthy embryo/fetus that is beyond the first trimester.
I'm "pro-choice for a reasonable period of time, but then after viability I think there should be a really good reason to have an abortion,"
We are already there in reality. I'm one degree removed from the neonate field of medicine, no doctor will perform an abortion on a healthy embryo/fetus that is beyond the first trimester.
Amy Sullivan can jump up my ass. Stupid fucking bitch - she whines like the fundies.
I'm not sorry at all for my position - is she fucking nuts? Why should we be sorry that we support a woman's right to control her own damned uterus?
I wish Sullivan (what is it with people named Sullivan?) would just sit down and shut up already. She makes it sound like liberals are forcing women to get pregnant just so we can force them to have abortions. This entire debate has been pulled askew - it has no reality anymore. The anti-choice crowd has seen to that.
Now it's all about killing babies 5 minutes before they were going to be born and that is a heinous lie.
Amy Sullivan can jump up my ass. Stupid fucking bitch - she whines like the fundies.
I'm not sorry at all for my position - is she fucking nuts? Why should we be sorry that we support a woman's right to control her own damned uterus?
I wish Sullivan (what is it with people named Sullivan?) would just sit down and shut up already. She makes it sound like liberals are forcing women to get pregnant just so we can force them to have abortions. This entire debate has been pulled askew - it has no reality anymore. The anti-choice crowd has seen to that.
Now it's all about killing babies 5 minutes before they were going to be born and that is a heinous lie.
I keep a small flask in my twat. Strom used to lick it, then take a sip
A gem. I laughed out loud, not something I do very often these days.
Death thunders across the plain
The red staters do complain
Bout those blues
Who sing the blues
The reds have no clues
Why they are dyin'
I keep a small flask in my twat. Strom used to lick it, then take a sip
A gem. I laughed out loud, not something I do very often these days.
Death thunders across the plain
The red staters do complain
Bout those blues
Who sing the blues
The reds have no clues
Why they are dyin'
I don't know why atrios is still reading Brooks.
The Daily News has the lowdown.
I don't know why atrios is still reading Brooks.
The Daily News has the lowdown.
Rock on! No apologies!
Amy "Andrew" Sullivan is just another Repub in Dem clothing telling us that to win elections we have to be more like Republicans.
Don't listen to her and her Liebermanite comrades.
Abortion is nothing to be ashamed of.
www.imnotsorry.net
Rock on! No apologies!
Amy "Andrew" Sullivan is just another Repub in Dem clothing telling us that to win elections we have to be more like Republicans.
Don't listen to her and her Liebermanite comrades.
Abortion is nothing to be ashamed of.
www.imnotsorry.net
Literacy + birth control = civilization.
That's the way it's always been.
Hey Seus(jesus) knew this. As He was the product of divine family planning.
Literacy + birth control = civilization.
That's the way it's always been.
Hey Seus(jesus) knew this. As He was the product of divine family planning.
Abortion after viability is illegal.
Except to protect the health of the mother. Good god. I marched in streets back in 1968 & 69 for a woman's right to choose. I can't believe we are still having this fight.
Abortion after viability is illegal.
Except to protect the health of the mother. Good god. I marched in streets back in 1968 & 69 for a woman's right to choose. I can't believe we are still having this fight.
Well, you know what? I refuse to be dragged into this stupid, asinine battle between two groups with unreasonable positions. If this means I'm unwelcome in the Democratic party, well then I will happily go join a party that takes a position that reflects reality.
Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out!
Well, you know what? I refuse to be dragged into this stupid, asinine battle between two groups with unreasonable positions. If this means I'm unwelcome in the Democratic party, well then I will happily go join a party that takes a position that reflects reality.
Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out!
Goddamn, if you can't control, legally, you own fucking body, then what do any of us control if the governmentm, led by christian republicans, can dictate it to eventually all of YOU.
Goddamn, if you can't control, legally, you own fucking body, then what do any of us control if the governmentm, led by christian republicans, can dictate it to eventually all of YOU.
I wish Sullivan (what is it with people named Sullivan?) would just sit down and shut up already. She makes it sound like liberals are forcing women to get pregnant just so we can force them to have abortions.
Amy Sullivan is one of the useful idiots of Democratic Christianity.
It makes for much more congenial coffee hour chat if you honestly try to find commonality with the hypocritical asshole who's hectoring you about morality.
I wish Sullivan (what is it with people named Sullivan?) would just sit down and shut up already. She makes it sound like liberals are forcing women to get pregnant just so we can force them to have abortions.
Amy Sullivan is one of the useful idiots of Democratic Christianity.
It makes for much more congenial coffee hour chat if you honestly try to find commonality with the hypocritical asshole who's hectoring you about morality.
Amy is a perfect guest for Kevin Drum, of the "sensible democrat" wing of the party (cf This Modern World). They love nothing more than chastizing progressives. Except maybe equivocating against the hard right wing.
Amy is a perfect guest for Kevin Drum, of the "sensible democrat" wing of the party (cf This Modern World). They love nothing more than chastizing progressives. Except maybe equivocating against the hard right wing.
I have said before and will say it again, we can peel off enough pro-choice moderate Republicans to put us back in the majority. Democrats took McLean, Virginia on the abortion issue.
We need to hammer away that the nuts have taken over the Republican Party.
I have said before and will say it again, we can peel off enough pro-choice moderate Republicans to put us back in the majority. Democrats took McLean, Virginia on the abortion issue.
We need to hammer away that the nuts have taken over the Republican Party.
Abortion is nothing to be ashamed of.
Let that be said, and said again, and again, and again, and again.
Abortion is nothing to be ashamed of.
Let that be said, and said again, and again, and again, and again.
If this means I'm unwelcome in the Democratic party, well then I will happily go join a party that takes a position that reflects reality.
But seriously, I don't know of anyone who says that anti-choicers are not welcome in the Dem. party.
We want as many people to support and vote Democrats as possible, even if their ideology differs significantly from the party platform. But just don't expect to have undue influence over that platform. Anti-choicers are welcome in the party; they are NOT welcome to try and compromise the abortion rights movement.
.
If this means I'm unwelcome in the Democratic party, well then I will happily go join a party that takes a position that reflects reality.
But seriously, I don't know of anyone who says that anti-choicers are not welcome in the Dem. party.
We want as many people to support and vote Democrats as possible, even if their ideology differs significantly from the party platform. But just don't expect to have undue influence over that platform. Anti-choicers are welcome in the party; they are NOT welcome to try and compromise the abortion rights movement.
.
rorschach - what you said.
No goddamned apologies.
Now shut the fuck up, Amy.
rorschach - what you said.
No goddamned apologies.
Now shut the fuck up, Amy.
Somewhat on a tangent but related to the womb robbing episode. Does anyone know if the victim was making use one of the red stater's favorite side income schemes of running a puppy mill? That's the first thing that came to mind when they talked about them being dog breeders.
Somewhat on a tangent but related to the womb robbing episode. Does anyone know if the victim was making use one of the red stater's favorite side income schemes of running a puppy mill? That's the first thing that came to mind when they talked about them being dog breeders.
"I can't believe we are still having this fight."
Me neither.
s/Margaret Sanger
Peggy Goldwater
"I can't believe we are still having this fight."
Me neither.
s/Margaret Sanger
Peggy Goldwater
Atta boy, Attaturk!
I just drink straight from the bottle now.
It saves time.
Central Scrutinizer |
Hoo Ha, that's funny.
Atta boy, Attaturk!
I just drink straight from the bottle now.
It saves time.
Central Scrutinizer |
Hoo Ha, that's funny.
We also have to hammer home that it is not just abortion they oppose, but the birth control pill, the I.U.D., and the patch, since all those devices can work after conception. We really have to do this. We can't let them keep on framing the issues.
We also have to hammer home that it is not just abortion they oppose, but the birth control pill, the I.U.D., and the patch, since all those devices can work after conception. We really have to do this. We can't let them keep on framing the issues.
"Amy Sullivan can jump up my ass. Stupid fucking bitch - she whines like the fundies."
Tena, this made me ROTFLMAO. Increasingly I'm finding that profanity and a good belly laugh is the only appropriate response to all this fuckin bullshit...
"Amy Sullivan can jump up my ass. Stupid fucking bitch - she whines like the fundies."
Tena, this made me ROTFLMAO. Increasingly I'm finding that profanity and a good belly laugh is the only appropriate response to all this fuckin bullshit...
Not to resurrect The Thread That Doesn't End, but I am more and more seeing the beauty of Obeah's idea, expressed in more detail in *that* thread, of pressuring the Dem party to find ways to prevent unintended pregnancy -- WITHOUT imposing further restrictions on abortion. I like it because doing this would actually be true to our core values, AND we get to sit back and say "See?" when the GOP punish-women tightwads say, "I'm not paying for that" (meaning the social programs necessary to do it). We may make no progress in terms of reducing unwanted pregnancy because of the GOP, but we should look better to that interesting hybrid of people, the lefty Dem pro-lifers, who sincerely want to reduce abortion without punishing women (which means reducing unwanted pregnancy by any means possible). I just wonder if those people exist in significant numbers.
The battle for hearts and minds here cannot be won with the present slant of the media. Even if they WERE fair, they'd have a hard time matching the shouting of fundies at the pulpit and the professional anti-choicers who are only too happy to lie to the sheep about what RvW really entails -- and the sheep will not do their own fact-checking. (I saw that this weekend in a really stupid e-mail exchange in which I had to point out what the Dem's actual abortion plank was in 2004, after this guy wrote that it was "far left and radical.") We simply haven't got a pulpit big enough to fight the huge misinformation campaign re. what RvW actually says, why D&E and D&X are necessary, etc.
Not to resurrect The Thread That Doesn't End, but I am more and more seeing the beauty of Obeah's idea, expressed in more detail in *that* thread, of pressuring the Dem party to find ways to prevent unintended pregnancy -- WITHOUT imposing further restrictions on abortion. I like it because doing this would actually be true to our core values, AND we get to sit back and say "See?" when the GOP punish-women tightwads say, "I'm not paying for that" (meaning the social programs necessary to do it). We may make no progress in terms of reducing unwanted pregnancy because of the GOP, but we should look better to that interesting hybrid of people, the lefty Dem pro-lifers, who sincerely want to reduce abortion without punishing women (which means reducing unwanted pregnancy by any means possible). I just wonder if those people exist in significant numbers.
The battle for hearts and minds here cannot be won with the present slant of the media. Even if they WERE fair, they'd have a hard time matching the shouting of fundies at the pulpit and the professional anti-choicers who are only too happy to lie to the sheep about what RvW really entails -- and the sheep will not do their own fact-checking. (I saw that this weekend in a really stupid e-mail exchange in which I had to point out what the Dem's actual abortion plank was in 2004, after this guy wrote that it was "far left and radical.") We simply haven't got a pulpit big enough to fight the huge misinformation campaign re. what RvW actually says, why D&E and D&X are necessary, etc.
This is an issue where it's simply preferable to lose an election than it is to compromise.
In the short run, legal abortion is finished. But the consequences will be pretty severe and the Democrats should be in a position to say 'see I told you so' when the average apolitical American starts seeing just how much influence the fundis are getting.
No flip flopping on this issue.
This is an issue where it's simply preferable to lose an election than it is to compromise.
In the short run, legal abortion is finished. But the consequences will be pretty severe and the Democrats should be in a position to say 'see I told you so' when the average apolitical American starts seeing just how much influence the fundis are getting.
No flip flopping on this issue.
We also have to hammer home that it is not just abortion they oppose, but the birth control pill, the I.U.D., and the patch, since all those devices can work after conception. We really have to do this. We can't let them keep on framing the issues.
And don't forget RU486, which they continue to stonewall, because it takes the "abortion" fight out of easily targeted clinics...
We also have to hammer home that it is not just abortion they oppose, but the birth control pill, the I.U.D., and the patch, since all those devices can work after conception. We really have to do this. We can't let them keep on framing the issues.
And don't forget RU486, which they continue to stonewall, because it takes the "abortion" fight out of easily targeted clinics...
What's next? Banning condoms? Yeah, that'll produce some nice socioeconomic and public-health-related results.
God damn these people.
What's next? Banning condoms? Yeah, that'll produce some nice socioeconomic and public-health-related results.
God damn these people.
I know of a Pro-Choice group that advocates for abortion on demand at any time during the pregnancy.
You can view it here:
http://www.livejournal.com/
useri...er=repro_rights
I know of a Pro-Choice group that advocates for abortion on demand at any time during the pregnancy.
You can view it here:
http://www.livejournal.com/
useri...er=repro_rights
i've been reading you for years although i've only posted a few comments. but i have to say this is probably the only issue you and i disagree on. even though i'm pro-choice, i have to cringe whenever you talk about abortion. whether you want to admit it or not, which obviously you don't, abortion IS icky. and while that doesn't mean we should ban it or shame people about it, this kind of gleeful, "abortion, yay!" attitude turns a lot of people off. a lot of very democratic, pro-choice people. we don't have to apologize for what we believe, but how about some respect? a little reverence for what is an unbelievably intense issue?
i've been reading you for years although i've only posted a few comments. but i have to say this is probably the only issue you and i disagree on. even though i'm pro-choice, i have to cringe whenever you talk about abortion. whether you want to admit it or not, which obviously you don't, abortion IS icky. and while that doesn't mean we should ban it or shame people about it, this kind of gleeful, "abortion, yay!" attitude turns a lot of people off. a lot of very democratic, pro-choice people. we don't have to apologize for what we believe, but how about some respect? a little reverence for what is an unbelievably intense issue?
What's next? Banning condoms? Yeah, that'll produce some nice socioeconomic and public-health-related results.
Look. If the Democratic party won't accept my anti-condom opinions then I'll just go somewhere else that reflects reality.
What's next? Banning condoms? Yeah, that'll produce some nice socioeconomic and public-health-related results.
Look. If the Democratic party won't accept my anti-condom opinions then I'll just go somewhere else that reflects reality.
OT: Read this:
http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/
and the comments
It seems the 'Spirit of America' fund-rasing effort may have been just the right-wing propaganda effort it seemed to be. From the above, someone got 'used' and didn't like it.
OT: Read this:
http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/
and the comments
It seems the 'Spirit of America' fund-rasing effort may have been just the right-wing propaganda effort it seemed to be. From the above, someone got 'used' and didn't like it.
In the short run, legal abortion is finished.
No fucking way. I don't buy it, and if it is in danger, then we have to fight tooth and nail.
In the short run, legal abortion is finished.
No fucking way. I don't buy it, and if it is in danger, then we have to fight tooth and nail.
The "moral" issue that the Democratic Party should embrace is the Iraq War.
Make the case that it is a war crime and that more war crimes are being committed as a matter of policy.
Undo the secrecy that the administration is trying so hard to keep in place. Attend en mass the funerals of the soldiers, etc.
Get media exposure. Shame the locals with international reaction and news on it.
The "moral" issue that the Democratic Party should embrace is the Iraq War.
Make the case that it is a war crime and that more war crimes are being committed as a matter of policy.
Undo the secrecy that the administration is trying so hard to keep in place. Attend en mass the funerals of the soldiers, etc.
Get media exposure. Shame the locals with international reaction and news on it.
This is an issue where it's simply preferable to lose an election than it is to compromise.
What Amy Sullivan Democrats (aka 'sensible liberals' -- I think that Tom Tomorrow cartoon sums things up perfectly) fail to realize is that this whole thing isn't just about 'our side' winning elections. The whole effort becomes pointless if we just have to turn into Republicans to win (something I don't believe, but which Beinart, Sullivan, Lieberman, et al will swear to until their last breath).
This should be a point that is so obvious as to go without saying, but apparently there are a number of people taken in by this kind of thinking.
.
This is an issue where it's simply preferable to lose an election than it is to compromise.
What Amy Sullivan Democrats (aka 'sensible liberals' -- I think that Tom Tomorrow cartoon sums things up perfectly) fail to realize is that this whole thing isn't just about 'our side' winning elections. The whole effort becomes pointless if we just have to turn into Republicans to win (something I don't believe, but which Beinart, Sullivan, Lieberman, et al will swear to until their last breath).
This should be a point that is so obvious as to go without saying, but apparently there are a number of people taken in by this kind of thinking.
.
Yeah, Amy's full of it. And Alice has a good point - there are moderates in the GOP, and even thought we may disagree with them on some things, we need to get them to split with the administration on select issues. Whitman's recent comments come to mind.
OT - Much-needed perspective on the so-called attack on Christmas.
Yeah, Amy's full of it. And Alice has a good point - there are moderates in the GOP, and even thought we may disagree with them on some things, we need to get them to split with the administration on select issues. Whitman's recent comments come to mind.
OT - Much-needed perspective on the so-called attack on Christmas.
I'm with whoever said Hemlock earlier
in the thread.
BTW, who the fuck is Amy Sullivan
and why should I care about her
opinions?
I'm with whoever said Hemlock earlier
in the thread.
BTW, who the fuck is Amy Sullivan
and why should I care about her
opinions?
No fucking way. I don't buy it, and if it is in danger, then we have to fight tooth and nail.
rorschach | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 1:24 pm | #
I think we should fight for legal abortion. But I also don't see any way around the coming changes in the Supreme Court. If the Democrats controlled the Senate or if it was close then Bush would be vulnerable but I just don't see him not getting his court appointments through.
Think about it. Chuck Schumer was going to support Bernard Kerik for the cabinet. And Schumer lives in NYC.
I guess you can target Democrats who won't fight anti-choice nominations but I just don't see it working.
No fucking way. I don't buy it, and if it is in danger, then we have to fight tooth and nail.
rorschach | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 1:24 pm | #
I think we should fight for legal abortion. But I also don't see any way around the coming changes in the Supreme Court. If the Democrats controlled the Senate or if it was close then Bush would be vulnerable but I just don't see him not getting his court appointments through.
Think about it. Chuck Schumer was going to support Bernard Kerik for the cabinet. And Schumer lives in NYC.
I guess you can target Democrats who won't fight anti-choice nominations but I just don't see it working.
And on the issue of which party is "pro-life," which party do you think is more responsible for this:
A car bomb blast during a funeral ceremony Sunday in the Shiite holy city of Najaf killed 30 people and injured 65, a hospital official said.
And on the issue of which party is "pro-life," which party do you think is more responsible for this:
A car bomb blast during a funeral ceremony Sunday in the Shiite holy city of Najaf killed 30 people and injured 65, a hospital official said.
Silleigh,
Many of us have said over and over that if the morning after pill were sold OTC, there would be very very little use for abortion. AND it prevents conception, in most cases.
Silleigh,
Many of us have said over and over that if the morning after pill were sold OTC, there would be very very little use for abortion. AND it prevents conception, in most cases.
"abortion, yay!" attitude
joey
joey, the light. Walk toward the light.
"abortion, yay!" attitude
joey
joey, the light. Walk toward the light.
I railed against every Naderite and every apathetic non-voter loser in the last two elections when they proclaimed there was no difference in the two major parties.
Guess what? I woke up this morning thinking they were right.
I railed against every Naderite and every apathetic non-voter loser in the last two elections when they proclaimed there was no difference in the two major parties.
Guess what? I woke up this morning thinking they were right.
Though, obviously, some people, particularly those on long flights with many screaming children, have argued for keeping it legal until age 10 or so.
Actually, I always thought abortion should be legal through the age of 30. Maybe then people would take the "Honor thy mother and thy father" commandment more seriously.
Though, obviously, some people, particularly those on long flights with many screaming children, have argued for keeping it legal until age 10 or so.
Actually, I always thought abortion should be legal through the age of 30. Maybe then people would take the "Honor thy mother and thy father" commandment more seriously.
Overturning Roe is asking for trouble, because Roe rests on the foundation of Griswold v. Connecticut (which legalized access to birth control pills for married women; subsequent cases extended this to single women). And I can just about guarantee you that taking away birth control pills will not go over well with middle America.
But let 'em try. It'll turn Red State women into Pill smugglers and make the trade in (currently) illicit drugs pale by comparison.
Overturning Roe is asking for trouble, because Roe rests on the foundation of Griswold v. Connecticut (which legalized access to birth control pills for married women; subsequent cases extended this to single women). And I can just about guarantee you that taking away birth control pills will not go over well with middle America.
But let 'em try. It'll turn Red State women into Pill smugglers and make the trade in (currently) illicit drugs pale by comparison.
It seems the 'Spirit of America' fund-rasing effort may have been just the right-wing propaganda effort it seemed to be. From the above, someone got 'used' and didn't like it.
No!
I am THOCKED.
Abthowutewy THOCKED.
It seems the 'Spirit of America' fund-rasing effort may have been just the right-wing propaganda effort it seemed to be. From the above, someone got 'used' and didn't like it.
No!
I am THOCKED.
Abthowutewy THOCKED.
Grey Psoda - I agree - it's not that anti-choice people aren't welcome in the party, but they have to understand that they are not going to force the party to be anti-choice.
It's all so fucking stupid - I don't get any choice in the matter when my tax dollars are being used to do things I fundamentally have deep moral objections to. I don't whine about it incessantly, however. That anti-choice people are free to be so.
But please do not expect the rest of us to drop our own principles. It is a matter of principles with pro-choice people, too. The anti-choice people seem incapable of understanding that choice for us is based upon morality and conscience, too.
Grey Psoda - I agree - it's not that anti-choice people aren't welcome in the party, but they have to understand that they are not going to force the party to be anti-choice.
It's all so fucking stupid - I don't get any choice in the matter when my tax dollars are being used to do things I fundamentally have deep moral objections to. I don't whine about it incessantly, however. That anti-choice people are free to be so.
But please do not expect the rest of us to drop our own principles. It is a matter of principles with pro-choice people, too. The anti-choice people seem incapable of understanding that choice for us is based upon morality and conscience, too.
abortion IS icky. and while that doesn't mean we should ban it or shame people about it, this kind of gleeful, "abortion, yay!" attitude turns a lot of people off.
Shit. That reminds me. I've got to go to my Abortion Yay!!! protest today.
abortion IS icky. and while that doesn't mean we should ban it or shame people about it, this kind of gleeful, "abortion, yay!" attitude turns a lot of people off.
Shit. That reminds me. I've got to go to my Abortion Yay!!! protest today.
I think we should fight for legal abortion. But I also don't see any way around the coming changes in the Supreme Court. If the Democrats controlled the Senate or if it was close then Bush would be vulnerable but I just don't see him not getting his court appointments through.
Yeah, but the Supreme Court justices are historically unpredictable. Plus, I do think the Dems will fight any overtly reactionary types.
I just don't see Roe v. Wade falling in any dramatic sense, just being eroded as it has been for some time now.
I think we should fight for legal abortion. But I also don't see any way around the coming changes in the Supreme Court. If the Democrats controlled the Senate or if it was close then Bush would be vulnerable but I just don't see him not getting his court appointments through.
Yeah, but the Supreme Court justices are historically unpredictable. Plus, I do think the Dems will fight any overtly reactionary types.
I just don't see Roe v. Wade falling in any dramatic sense, just being eroded as it has been for some time now.
Who was it that said "If men could
get pregnant, abortion would be
a sacrament"?
Who was it that said "If men could
get pregnant, abortion would be
a sacrament"?
OT:
Where did the name 'Little Green Footballs' come from?
Squeaky Johnson says he and his brother came up with it in Japan, many years ago.
During the Vietnam era, racsists in the military refered to Asians as 'Little Gook Fuckers'. The same expression was sometimes used about the Japanese -- hmmm, interesting that Johnson was in Japan when he 'came up' with the name.
In public, the military racists didn't say 'Little Gook Fuckers', they used code for that. They used to say... you got it, 'Little Green Footballs'.
Johnson has been asked how he came up with the name. He won't say. He jokes 'If I told you, I'd have to kill you'.
Now we know why.
OT:
Where did the name 'Little Green Footballs' come from?
Squeaky Johnson says he and his brother came up with it in Japan, many years ago.
During the Vietnam era, racsists in the military refered to Asians as 'Little Gook Fuckers'. The same expression was sometimes used about the Japanese -- hmmm, interesting that Johnson was in Japan when he 'came up' with the name.
In public, the military racists didn't say 'Little Gook Fuckers', they used code for that. They used to say... you got it, 'Little Green Footballs'.
Johnson has been asked how he came up with the name. He won't say. He jokes 'If I told you, I'd have to kill you'.
Now we know why.
I railed against every Naderite and every apathetic non-voter loser in the last two elections when they proclaimed there was no difference in the two major parties.
Guess what? I woke up this morning thinking they were right.
Jenny from the Blog
That's the most depressing thing I've heard in a while, Jenny.
I railed against every Naderite and every apathetic non-voter loser in the last two elections when they proclaimed there was no difference in the two major parties.
Guess what? I woke up this morning thinking they were right.
Jenny from the Blog
That's the most depressing thing I've heard in a while, Jenny.
I do think the Dems will fight any overtly reactionary types.
No they won't.
I do think the Dems will fight any overtly reactionary types.
No they won't.
Many of us have said over and over that if the morning after pill were sold OTC, there would be very very little use for abortion. AND it prevents conception, in most cases.
It would certainly help in cases where you know there might have been an accident. (However, the punish-women crowd are opposed to it, too -- the FDA was on the brink of making it OTC earlier this year, and they got stopped by the fundies.)
Don't EVEN get me started about its availability. A pharmacy across the county here stocks it specifically for my doctor's patients. I must have driven past 50 drugstores that DIDN'T stock it to get there, several months ago. I could rant about that for hours. (But won't, and you're welcome.)
Many of us have said over and over that if the morning after pill were sold OTC, there would be very very little use for abortion. AND it prevents conception, in most cases.
It would certainly help in cases where you know there might have been an accident. (However, the punish-women crowd are opposed to it, too -- the FDA was on the brink of making it OTC earlier this year, and they got stopped by the fundies.)
Don't EVEN get me started about its availability. A pharmacy across the county here stocks it specifically for my doctor's patients. I must have driven past 50 drugstores that DIDN'T stock it to get there, several months ago. I could rant about that for hours. (But won't, and you're welcome.)
If we organize around our opposition to the invasion in Iraq, get media exposure, and the numbers grow; at some point the Democratic Party will embrace the movement.
It doesn't have to start as a Democratic sponsored event.
If we organize around our opposition to the invasion in Iraq, get media exposure, and the numbers grow; at some point the Democratic Party will embrace the movement.
It doesn't have to start as a Democratic sponsored event.
During the Vietnam era, racsists in the military refered to Asians as 'Little Gook Fuckers'. The same expression was sometimes used about the Japanese -- hmmm, interesting that Johnson was in Japan when he 'came up' with the name.
I dunno. I sounded out my father on this (Vietnam Vet, viciously racist against Asians) and he had never heard the term.
I'm skeptical.
During the Vietnam era, racsists in the military refered to Asians as 'Little Gook Fuckers'. The same expression was sometimes used about the Japanese -- hmmm, interesting that Johnson was in Japan when he 'came up' with the name.
I dunno. I sounded out my father on this (Vietnam Vet, viciously racist against Asians) and he had never heard the term.
I'm skeptical.
Grey Psoda ---
That's my boy!
I get such nachas from him....
Grey Psoda ---
That's my boy!
I get such nachas from him....
Buzz - Increasingly I'm finding that profanity and a good belly laugh is the only appropriate response to all this fuckin bullshit
I've always been profane, but it has gotten really bad lately. My guests were laughing about it last night. It does help. I don't know why, but it does.
Buzz - Increasingly I'm finding that profanity and a good belly laugh is the only appropriate response to all this fuckin bullshit
I've always been profane, but it has gotten really bad lately. My guests were laughing about it last night. It does help. I don't know why, but it does.
Quiltlady - then it's not properly called "abortion". It is a D&C and is performed in a hospital, not a clinic and clearly not on the whim of the mom. It is expensive, and generally then needs to be covered by insurance and be legally defensible as not a mere choice. Calling such procedures "abortion" e.g. partial-birth abortion is playing straight into the hands of the abolitionists.
Quiltlady - then it's not properly called "abortion". It is a D&C and is performed in a hospital, not a clinic and clearly not on the whim of the mom. It is expensive, and generally then needs to be covered by insurance and be legally defensible as not a mere choice. Calling such procedures "abortion" e.g. partial-birth abortion is playing straight into the hands of the abolitionists.
Yeah, but the Supreme Court justices are historically unpredictable.
Definitely true, but what worries me is that the Right has learned this lesson, and thus work hard to make sure that the only justices they appoint are hardcore, rigid ideologues -- true believers -- that they can count on to be fanatical to the bitter end.
C. Thomas would be the prototype for this type of judge.
Scary.
Yeah, but the Supreme Court justices are historically unpredictable.
Definitely true, but what worries me is that the Right has learned this lesson, and thus work hard to make sure that the only justices they appoint are hardcore, rigid ideologues -- true believers -- that they can count on to be fanatical to the bitter end.
C. Thomas would be the prototype for this type of judge.
Scary.
You know, at this point they don't
have to make abortion illegal.
The percentage of doctors that will
even do one is miniscule to the
point of non-existant.
You know, at this point they don't
have to make abortion illegal.
The percentage of doctors that will
even do one is miniscule to the
point of non-existant.
C. Thomas would be the prototype for this type of judge.
And Renquist and Scalia.
What's more, there's an entire network of right-wing legal organizations now that didn't exist under Eisenhower, Nixon and even Reagan.
C. Thomas would be the prototype for this type of judge.
And Renquist and Scalia.
What's more, there's an entire network of right-wing legal organizations now that didn't exist under Eisenhower, Nixon and even Reagan.
Grey Psoda ---That's my boy!
I try to make you proud, pop!
What can I say -- the apple doesn't fall far from the tree!
Grey Psoda ---That's my boy!
I try to make you proud, pop!
What can I say -- the apple doesn't fall far from the tree!
rorschach - I agree. In the first place, that line of decisions is still being relied upon by the SCOTUS. I can't see that it will turn around now and overrule those decisions, when just recently it relied on them to overrule the Texas sodomy laws.
rorschach - I agree. In the first place, that line of decisions is still being relied upon by the SCOTUS. I can't see that it will turn around now and overrule those decisions, when just recently it relied on them to overrule the Texas sodomy laws.
Amy, the seminary student, likes to argue as long as the argument is framed in a religous context. Kinda like Brooks only more explicit about the religion part. She' just as bad in re the seperation of church and state. As I recall, her hubby is also a seminary product.
Amy, the seminary student, likes to argue as long as the argument is framed in a religous context. Kinda like Brooks only more explicit about the religion part. She' just as bad in re the seperation of church and state. As I recall, her hubby is also a seminary product.
The Lisa Montgomery case is a golden opportunity to point out everything that's wrong with the underlying arguments of the anti-abortion movement.
Consider that Ms. Montgomery, growing up deep in the heart of red America, in the Kansas of which Tom Frank has written so memorably, was inundated with “pro-life” propaganda about how important the life of the fetus was, about how it was so much important than the life of the woman around it, even if she never took part in it as her cause. We can take it as a given that at some point in her life she probably saw Bernard Nathanson’s ridiculous and misleading Silent Scream, which never once considers the woman carrying the fetus as a real person, merely some incredible biotech incubator; a film worthy of Goebbels and Riefenstahl at their best.
Should we be all that surprised, then, that she treated Bobby Jo Stinnett as an inconvenient impediment to her desire for the baby she just had to know Jesus wanted her to have, entitled to no more of her consideration or sympathy than those little plastic wrappers maxipads come in, to be opened and discarded just as casually? No.
For this is what happens when you value “life” over individual human lives. This is the bitter fruit of the dehumanizing, deindividuating emphasis on life beginning at conception, making birth, the point at which we begin our lives as separate and distinct beings, into some unpleasant bodily function unworthy of legal recognition.
Hitler knew this. Stalin knew this. So did Khomeini and Ceausescu. That's why they all reversed laws or policies that allowed abortion in the countries they took over. They knew as only tyrants can, that reproductive freedom and dictatorship are fundamental and irreconcilable enemies.
Today everyone who calls themselves “pro-life” must accept the death of Bobby Jo Stinnett as something for which they are ideologically, intellectually and morally responsible on a very personal level. Let them answer for it. Are they happy with what they have wrought? Can they sleep?
Now, if we all had the instincts of Republicans and the Mighty Wurlitzer, as well as its balls, and took to heart all that Prof. Lakoff has been saying about framing, we’d be trumpeting this from the rooftops and every liberal blog, and at least two members of Congress would be repeating it as publicly as possible. Do we? At least make this into your letter to the editor.
You might also mention that a case exactly like this has happened before ... in New Mexico, we remember, sometime in the early 1990s. So it will happen again, and is not some freak one-off thing.
The Lisa Montgomery case is a golden opportunity to point out everything that's wrong with the underlying arguments of the anti-abortion movement.
Consider that Ms. Montgomery, growing up deep in the heart of red America, in the Kansas of which Tom Frank has written so memorably, was inundated with “pro-life” propaganda about how important the life of the fetus was, about how it was so much important than the life of the woman around it, even if she never took part in it as her cause. We can take it as a given that at some point in her life she probably saw Bernard Nathanson’s ridiculous and misleading Silent Scream, which never once considers the woman carrying the fetus as a real person, merely some incredible biotech incubator; a film worthy of Goebbels and Riefenstahl at their best.
Should we be all that surprised, then, that she treated Bobby Jo Stinnett as an inconvenient impediment to her desire for the baby she just had to know Jesus wanted her to have, entitled to no more of her consideration or sympathy than those little plastic wrappers maxipads come in, to be opened and discarded just as casually? No.
For this is what happens when you value “life” over individual human lives. This is the bitter fruit of the dehumanizing, deindividuating emphasis on life beginning at conception, making birth, the point at which we begin our lives as separate and distinct beings, into some unpleasant bodily function unworthy of legal recognition.
Hitler knew this. Stalin knew this. So did Khomeini and Ceausescu. That's why they all reversed laws or policies that allowed abortion in the countries they took over. They knew as only tyrants can, that reproductive freedom and dictatorship are fundamental and irreconcilable enemies.
Today everyone who calls themselves “pro-life” must accept the death of Bobby Jo Stinnett as something for which they are ideologically, intellectually and morally responsible on a very personal level. Let them answer for it. Are they happy with what they have wrought? Can they sleep?
Now, if we all had the instincts of Republicans and the Mighty Wurlitzer, as well as its balls, and took to heart all that Prof. Lakoff has been saying about framing, we’d be trumpeting this from the rooftops and every liberal blog, and at least two members of Congress would be repeating it as publicly as possible. Do we? At least make this into your letter to the editor.
You might also mention that a case exactly like this has happened before ... in New Mexico, we remember, sometime in the early 1990s. So it will happen again, and is not some freak one-off thing.
I just drink straight from the bottle now.
It saves time.
And why get a glass dirty if ya don't have to?
I need to write to Chinaco to start selling bigger bottles so I don't have to make so many trips to the liquor store.
I just drink straight from the bottle now.
It saves time.
And why get a glass dirty if ya don't have to?
I need to write to Chinaco to start selling bigger bottles so I don't have to make so many trips to the liquor store.
That's the most depressing thing I've heard in a while, Jenny.
rorschach,/i>
I know, man. Because it strikes so close it's true.
That's the most depressing thing I've heard in a while, Jenny.
rorschach,/i>
I know, man. Because it strikes so close it's true.
I posted this earlier. It is more appropriate here. From a 2001 article in the Journal of the Americal Medical Association.
Enhanced surveillance for pregnancy-associated mortality--Maryland, 1993-1998.
by Horon IL and Cheng D of the Vital Statistics Administration, Maryland Department of Health and Mental Hygiene
snip
OBJECTIVE: To ascertain the number and causes of pregnancy-associated deaths using enhanced surveillance techniques.
snip
RESULTS: A total of 247 pregnancy-associated deaths were ascertained. Homicide was the leading cause of pregnancy-associated death (n = 50; 20%), and cardiovascular disorders were the second-leading cause (n = 48; 19%).
snip
CONCLUSIONS: ... enhanced pregnancy mortality surveillance led to the disturbing finding that a pregnant or recently pregnant woman is more likely to be a victim of homicide than to die of any other cause.
I posted this earlier. It is more appropriate here. From a 2001 article in the Journal of the Americal Medical Association.
Enhanced surveillance for pregnancy-associated mortality--Maryland, 1993-1998.
by Horon IL and Cheng D of the Vital Statistics Administration, Maryland Department of Health and Mental Hygiene
snip
OBJECTIVE: To ascertain the number and causes of pregnancy-associated deaths using enhanced surveillance techniques.
snip
RESULTS: A total of 247 pregnancy-associated deaths were ascertained. Homicide was the leading cause of pregnancy-associated death (n = 50; 20%), and cardiovascular disorders were the second-leading cause (n = 48; 19%).
snip
CONCLUSIONS: ... enhanced pregnancy mortality surveillance led to the disturbing finding that a pregnant or recently pregnant woman is more likely to be a victim of homicide than to die of any other cause.
rorschach - I agree. In the first place, that line of decisions is still being relied upon by the SCOTUS. I can't see that it will turn around now and overrule those decisions, when just recently it relied on them to overrule the Texas sodomy laws.
Yes, Tena, thank you for saying it better than I could.
There is some judicial inertia that must be taken into account here. They don't just turn on a dime, and there are plenty of decisions that they'd have to turn their backs on to overturn Roe v. Wade at this point.
rorschach - I agree. In the first place, that line of decisions is still being relied upon by the SCOTUS. I can't see that it will turn around now and overrule those decisions, when just recently it relied on them to overrule the Texas sodomy laws.
Yes, Tena, thank you for saying it better than I could.
There is some judicial inertia that must be taken into account here. They don't just turn on a dime, and there are plenty of decisions that they'd have to turn their backs on to overturn Roe v. Wade at this point.
Totally OT, but...
I'm typing here with the third Lord
of the Rings flick on my TV behind me, and
if you don't listen too closely,
Gollum sounds like Donald Duck.
IMHO.
Totally OT, but...
I'm typing here with the third Lord
of the Rings flick on my TV behind me, and
if you don't listen too closely,
Gollum sounds like Donald Duck.
IMHO.
That's the most depressing thing I've heard in a while, Jenny.
If Gonzales is approved with no fight from our side then I rest my case. (course I'm speaking of our politicians, not the millions of us crying out for representation)
That's the most depressing thing I've heard in a while, Jenny.
If Gonzales is approved with no fight from our side then I rest my case. (course I'm speaking of our politicians, not the millions of us crying out for representation)
You know, at this point they don't
have to make abortion illegal.
The percentage of doctors that will
even do one is miniscule to the
point of non-existant.
No shit, my friend. Apparently you can also opt out of that training in medical school now, too. They knew exactly where we were vulnerable -- we need doctors for these procedures (I'm sure that's even necessary after taking RU-486). So they removed the doctors, by murder and intimidation.
I am beginning to think we really need to be establishing an underground railroad, and going back to earlier ideas of training women to perform "menstrual extractions" and whatever other procedures are needed on each other. Reproductive rights co-ops.
QuiltLady's right-- it is totally infuriating to still be fighting this battle decades later. Complicated now by the fact that many of the present players have no memory of what it was like when abortion was illegal. Apparently we stand a good chance of being doomed to repeat history.
You know, at this point they don't
have to make abortion illegal.
The percentage of doctors that will
even do one is miniscule to the
point of non-existant.
No shit, my friend. Apparently you can also opt out of that training in medical school now, too. They knew exactly where we were vulnerable -- we need doctors for these procedures (I'm sure that's even necessary after taking RU-486). So they removed the doctors, by murder and intimidation.
I am beginning to think we really need to be establishing an underground railroad, and going back to earlier ideas of training women to perform "menstrual extractions" and whatever other procedures are needed on each other. Reproductive rights co-ops.
QuiltLady's right-- it is totally infuriating to still be fighting this battle decades later. Complicated now by the fact that many of the present players have no memory of what it was like when abortion was illegal. Apparently we stand a good chance of being doomed to repeat history.
If opposition to the war in Iraq grows, it will be hard for the Bushies to implement the draft without a sizable uproar. This will put them in a bind because they can't stand pat with the troops and potential replacements they have.
This is the issue we should focus on. In view of the last election, it will be hard to rally people to a "tired" issue like abortion (disclaimer: I am in favor of abortion rights).
If opposition to the war in Iraq grows, it will be hard for the Bushies to implement the draft without a sizable uproar. This will put them in a bind because they can't stand pat with the troops and potential replacements they have.
This is the issue we should focus on. In view of the last election, it will be hard to rally people to a "tired" issue like abortion (disclaimer: I am in favor of abortion rights).
Wouldn't be a lot easier if democrats explained that they are not for abortion after viability, instead of repeating the mantra "woman's right to choose" over and over.
Atrios, the problem is the message, and the ideological responses don't help the message with the broader public.
Wouldn't be a lot easier if democrats explained that they are not for abortion after viability, instead of repeating the mantra "woman's right to choose" over and over.
Atrios, the problem is the message, and the ideological responses don't help the message with the broader public.
The Lisa Montgomery case is a golden opportunity to point out everything that's wrong with the underlying arguments of the anti-abortion movement.
Consider that Ms. Montgomery, growing up deep in the heart of red America, in the Kansas of which Tom Frank has written so memorably, was inundated with “pro-life” propaganda about how important the life of the fetus was, about how it was so much important than the life of the woman around it, even if she never took part in it as her cause. We can take it as a given that at some point in her life she probably saw Bernard Nathanson’s ridiculous and misleading Silent Scream, which never once considers the woman carrying the fetus as a real person, merely some incredible biotech incubator; a film worthy of Goebbels and Riefenstahl at their best.
Should we be all that surprised, then, that she treated Bobby Jo Stinnett as an inconvenient impediment to her desire for the baby she just had to know Jesus wanted her to have, entitled to no more of her consideration or sympathy than those little plastic wrappers maxipads come in, to be opened and discarded just as casually? No.
For this is what happens when you value “life” over individual human lives. This is the bitter fruit of the dehumanizing, deindividuating emphasis on life beginning at conception, making birth, the point at which we begin our lives as separate and distinct beings, into some unpleasant bodily function unworthy of legal recognition.
Hitler knew this. Stalin knew this. So did Khomeini and Ceausescu. That's why they all reversed laws or policies that allowed abortion in the countries they took over. They knew as only tyrants can, that reproductive freedom and dictatorship are fundamental and irreconcilable enemies.
Today everyone who calls themselves “pro-life” must accept the death of Bobby Jo Stinnett as something for which they are ideologically, intellectually and morally responsible on a very personal level. Let them answer for it. Are they happy with what they have wrought? Can they sleep?
Now, if we all had the instincts of Republicans and the Mighty Wurlitzer, as well as its balls, and took to heart all that Prof. Lakoff has been saying about framing, we’d be trumpeting this from the rooftops and every liberal blog, and at least two members of Congress would be repeating it as publicly as possible. Do we? At least make this into your letter to the editor.
You might also mention that a case exactly like this has happened before ... in New Mexico, we remember, sometime in the early 1990s. So it will happen again, and is not some freak one-off thing.
The Lisa Montgomery case is a golden opportunity to point out everything that's wrong with the underlying arguments of the anti-abortion movement.
Consider that Ms. Montgomery, growing up deep in the heart of red America, in the Kansas of which Tom Frank has written so memorably, was inundated with “pro-life” propaganda about how important the life of the fetus was, about how it was so much important than the life of the woman around it, even if she never took part in it as her cause. We can take it as a given that at some point in her life she probably saw Bernard Nathanson’s ridiculous and misleading Silent Scream, which never once considers the woman carrying the fetus as a real person, merely some incredible biotech incubator; a film worthy of Goebbels and Riefenstahl at their best.
Should we be all that surprised, then, that she treated Bobby Jo Stinnett as an inconvenient impediment to her desire for the baby she just had to know Jesus wanted her to have, entitled to no more of her consideration or sympathy than those little plastic wrappers maxipads come in, to be opened and discarded just as casually? No.
For this is what happens when you value “life” over individual human lives. This is the bitter fruit of the dehumanizing, deindividuating emphasis on life beginning at conception, making birth, the point at which we begin our lives as separate and distinct beings, into some unpleasant bodily function unworthy of legal recognition.
Hitler knew this. Stalin knew this. So did Khomeini and Ceausescu. That's why they all reversed laws or policies that allowed abortion in the countries they took over. They knew as only tyrants can, that reproductive freedom and dictatorship are fundamental and irreconcilable enemies.
Today everyone who calls themselves “pro-life” must accept the death of Bobby Jo Stinnett as something for which they are ideologically, intellectually and morally responsible on a very personal level. Let them answer for it. Are they happy with what they have wrought? Can they sleep?
Now, if we all had the instincts of Republicans and the Mighty Wurlitzer, as well as its balls, and took to heart all that Prof. Lakoff has been saying about framing, we’d be trumpeting this from the rooftops and every liberal blog, and at least two members of Congress would be repeating it as publicly as possible. Do we? At least make this into your letter to the editor.
You might also mention that a case exactly like this has happened before ... in New Mexico, we remember, sometime in the early 1990s. So it will happen again, and is not some freak one-off thing.
I guess, the point I am making in the last post, is, in the absence of evidence that right wing nutcases are more prone to kill their pregnant wives, it is not clear to me that we should necessarily frame a political debate about this horrifically common phenomenon.
I guess, the point I am making in the last post, is, in the absence of evidence that right wing nutcases are more prone to kill their pregnant wives, it is not clear to me that we should necessarily frame a political debate about this horrifically common phenomenon.
the democrats have a message problem on everything, but the answer is not to deal with the situation with the following strategy:
Republicans charge x, democrats deny x,
Republicans chrage x+1, democrats deny x+1,
Republicans charge x+2, democrats deny x+2...
etc
the democrats have a message problem on everything, but the answer is not to deal with the situation with the following strategy:
Republicans charge x, democrats deny x,
Republicans chrage x+1, democrats deny x+1,
Republicans charge x+2, democrats deny x+2...
etc
Jenny:
I had a huge fight with a genuine
liberal democrat last night who
thinks it would be a tactical
disaster for the Dems to try to
block Gonzales.
I ended up speechless. Like I said,
this was a genuine liberal, and
he wants to roll over.
We're doomed, probably....
Jenny:
I had a huge fight with a genuine
liberal democrat last night who
thinks it would be a tactical
disaster for the Dems to try to
block Gonzales.
I ended up speechless. Like I said,
this was a genuine liberal, and
he wants to roll over.
We're doomed, probably....
Wouldn't be a lot easier if democrats explained that they are not for abortion after viability, instead of repeating the mantra "woman's right to choose" over and over.
No, it wouldn't be easier. Nor would it be right.
Wouldn't be a lot easier if democrats explained that they are not for abortion after viability, instead of repeating the mantra "woman's right to choose" over and over.
No, it wouldn't be easier. Nor would it be right.
What's next? Banning condoms? Yeah, that'll produce some nice socioeconomic and public-health-related results.
I hate to sound like a femminazi (no I don't) but I am really becoming convinced that this is a control issue. With all birth control outlawed, women will once again become chattel of their husbands. My mom, in the fifties had four kids and an artist for husband. Very interesting life, but dad didn't make much money. She wanted to get her tubes tied, but could not have the procedure until she had her husband's written permission, and the written permission of both her father, and her father-in-law. The reason was she had four DAUGHTERS and was denying interested parties male heirs. When the pill came out, she used a diaphragm and the pill for years.
When I wanted my tubes tied in 1981, my gyno was gleeful that the law had just changed and I didn't need to get a permission slip from my husband. 19 fucking 81!
I'm telling you ladies, we may have to cross our legs on a more or less permanent basis if these fundies get their way.
What's next? Banning condoms? Yeah, that'll produce some nice socioeconomic and public-health-related results.
I hate to sound like a femminazi (no I don't) but I am really becoming convinced that this is a control issue. With all birth control outlawed, women will once again become chattel of their husbands. My mom, in the fifties had four kids and an artist for husband. Very interesting life, but dad didn't make much money. She wanted to get her tubes tied, but could not have the procedure until she had her husband's written permission, and the written permission of both her father, and her father-in-law. The reason was she had four DAUGHTERS and was denying interested parties male heirs. When the pill came out, she used a diaphragm and the pill for years.
When I wanted my tubes tied in 1981, my gyno was gleeful that the law had just changed and I didn't need to get a permission slip from my husband. 19 fucking 81!
I'm telling you ladies, we may have to cross our legs on a more or less permanent basis if these fundies get their way.
Consider that Ms. Montgomery, growing up deep in the heart of red America, in the Kansas of which Tom Frank has written so memorably, was inundated with “pro-life” propaganda about how important the life of the fetus was, about how it was so much important than the life of the woman around it...Should we be all that surprised, then, that she treated Bobby Jo Stinnett as an inconvenient impediment...
For this is what happens when you value “life” over individual human lives.
You've made an inescapable point here. I don't think that the analysis hinges on red state propensity for murder or anything like that, but on the end result of the devaluation of women which anti-abortion rhetoric so often yields. This point can't be dismissed.
Consider that Ms. Montgomery, growing up deep in the heart of red America, in the Kansas of which Tom Frank has written so memorably, was inundated with “pro-life” propaganda about how important the life of the fetus was, about how it was so much important than the life of the woman around it...Should we be all that surprised, then, that she treated Bobby Jo Stinnett as an inconvenient impediment...
For this is what happens when you value “life” over individual human lives.
You've made an inescapable point here. I don't think that the analysis hinges on red state propensity for murder or anything like that, but on the end result of the devaluation of women which anti-abortion rhetoric so often yields. This point can't be dismissed.
amy sullivan--minnie kaus?
amy sullivan--minnie kaus?
Wouldn't be a lot easier if democrats explained that they are not for abortion after viability, instead of repeating the mantra "woman's right to choose" over and over.
Terrible, terrible idea. "Viability" is something we need to stay the fuck away from.
Abortion rights are absolute. No equivocating about "viability" or "late-term" should be tolerated.
For all we know, in ten years they will be able to raise ten-week old fetuses in incubators, thus making them "viable". Then, if people like this poster get their way, abortion after ten weeks would be illegal, grounds for throwing women in jail.
That's just crazy.
.
Wouldn't be a lot easier if democrats explained that they are not for abortion after viability, instead of repeating the mantra "woman's right to choose" over and over.
Terrible, terrible idea. "Viability" is something we need to stay the fuck away from.
Abortion rights are absolute. No equivocating about "viability" or "late-term" should be tolerated.
For all we know, in ten years they will be able to raise ten-week old fetuses in incubators, thus making them "viable". Then, if people like this poster get their way, abortion after ten weeks would be illegal, grounds for throwing women in jail.
That's just crazy.
.
...the answer is not to deal with the situation with the following strategy:
Republicans charge x, democrats deny x,...
This is partly why I liked Obeah's strategy. It would eventually put the Rethugs on the defensive, for ONCE in their miserable existence, and make THEM explain why they're opposed to measures that would reduce unwanted pregnancy (read: need for abortion).
...the answer is not to deal with the situation with the following strategy:
Republicans charge x, democrats deny x,...
This is partly why I liked Obeah's strategy. It would eventually put the Rethugs on the defensive, for ONCE in their miserable existence, and make THEM explain why they're opposed to measures that would reduce unwanted pregnancy (read: need for abortion).
GN,
Thank you!
GN,
Thank you!
Joey - sorry, but fuck you.
Joey - sorry, but fuck you.
Terrible, terrible idea. "Viability" is something we need to stay the fuck away from.
I agree. That's an awful slippery slope and is a sure-fire means of re-energizing the "when does life begin?" aspect of anti-abortion rhetoric.
Terrible, terrible idea. "Viability" is something we need to stay the fuck away from.
I agree. That's an awful slippery slope and is a sure-fire means of re-energizing the "when does life begin?" aspect of anti-abortion rhetoric.
Silleigh - Right after the election, I talked about setting up a new Project Jane. I haven't given that idea up - I have just been waiting to see what would happen.
There is little we can do while abortion is still legal. If it is outlawed, then I do want to set something up, provided that it doesn't become illegal to help a woman obtain an abortion. I've seen proposals that do that.
Yet another development to thank
Ralph Nader for....
Silleigh - Right after the election, I talked about setting up a new Project Jane. I haven't given that idea up - I have just been waiting to see what would happen.
There is little we can do while abortion is still legal. If it is outlawed, then I do want to set something up, provided that it doesn't become illegal to help a woman obtain an abortion. I've seen proposals that do that.
Yet another development to thank
Ralph Nader for....
QuiltLady in NY, it's the same enemy we all fight.
QuiltLady in NY, it's the same enemy we all fight.
I personnaly think abortion is wrong. But I don't have a better solution for the social problem of thousands of unwanted pregnancies, so I don't oppose it.
I personnaly think abortion is wrong. But I don't have a better solution for the social problem of thousands of unwanted pregnancies, so I don't oppose it.
steve -
I'm speechless.
From a political standpoint it seems so obvious to me that fighting Gonzales
would serve the dems well.
A serious confirmation fight would expose
the horrors we've perpetrated against many
innocent people and we've got pictures and
video to show the fruits of his labor.
When have we ever had this kind of damning evidence of wrongdoing and hideous thinking on the part of a nominee?
He's damned himself with his cruel
and unjust positions on torture, he's
shown his immorality.
Can you recall some of your friend's arguments on the subject. I'm really curious.
steve -
I'm speechless.
From a political standpoint it seems so obvious to me that fighting Gonzales
would serve the dems well.
A serious confirmation fight would expose
the horrors we've perpetrated against many
innocent people and we've got pictures and
video to show the fruits of his labor.
When have we ever had this kind of damning evidence of wrongdoing and hideous thinking on the part of a nominee?
He's damned himself with his cruel
and unjust positions on torture, he's
shown his immorality.
Can you recall some of your friend's arguments on the subject. I'm really curious.
Who was it that said "If men could
get pregnant, abortion would be
a sacrament"?
steve simels
Bella Abzug? or mebbe Gloria Steinem... It's been out there a LONG time: 30-plus years i'd guess...
Who was it that said "If men could
get pregnant, abortion would be
a sacrament"?
steve simels
Bella Abzug? or mebbe Gloria Steinem... It's been out there a LONG time: 30-plus years i'd guess...
Something about the abortion issue that bothers me, though. Please do not pile on me as a hater, I am not a winger, just tell me why this illogical without shouting:
If someone WANTS to be pregnant, to have a child, that fetus will be protected at all costs. If someone does not want to be pregnant, its a womb booger.
How, or why, did we get to decide that?
Is having a baby really such a terrible thing?
I mean, if a car accident is my fault or not doesn't matter if my legs are broken -- it's still far worse than having a baby.
Aren't there people lined up for adoptions?
Something about the abortion issue that bothers me, though. Please do not pile on me as a hater, I am not a winger, just tell me why this illogical without shouting:
If someone WANTS to be pregnant, to have a child, that fetus will be protected at all costs. If someone does not want to be pregnant, its a womb booger.
How, or why, did we get to decide that?
Is having a baby really such a terrible thing?
I mean, if a car accident is my fault or not doesn't matter if my legs are broken -- it's still far worse than having a baby.
Aren't there people lined up for adoptions?
I personnaly think abortion is wrong. But I don't have a better solution for the social problem of thousands of unwanted pregnancies, so I don't oppose it.
Special Ed
That is, as they used to say, mighty white of you. Or in this case, I guess it'd be "mighty male of you."
I personnaly think abortion is wrong. But I don't have a better solution for the social problem of thousands of unwanted pregnancies, so I don't oppose it.
Special Ed
That is, as they used to say, mighty white of you. Or in this case, I guess it'd be "mighty male of you."
Special Ed:
I personally think slavery is wrong,
but I don't have better solution for
a cheap labor supply, so I don't oppose it.
Special Ed:
I personally think slavery is wrong,
but I don't have better solution for
a cheap labor supply, so I don't oppose it.
When I wanted my tubes tied in 1981, my gyno was gleeful that the law had just changed and I didn't need to get a permission slip from my husband. 19 fucking 81!
I can top that. In Virginia, around 1990 or 1991, my (not-then-ex-) husband had to have my permission to get a vasectomy.
When I wanted my tubes tied in 1981, my gyno was gleeful that the law had just changed and I didn't need to get a permission slip from my husband. 19 fucking 81!
I can top that. In Virginia, around 1990 or 1991, my (not-then-ex-) husband had to have my permission to get a vasectomy.
Time picks Bush as man of the year.
.
Time picks Bush as man of the year.
.
Us liberal must be sensible,
For our ideas to be defensible;
There's just no other way,
To get the okay,
Of those we find reprehensible.
..
Us liberal must be sensible,
For our ideas to be defensible;
There's just no other way,
To get the okay,
Of those we find reprehensible.
..
amy sullivan--minnie kaus?
the worm
Now that's funny
amy sullivan--minnie kaus?
the worm
Now that's funny
Amy Sullivan is one of the useful idiots of Democratic Christianity.
Hmmmmm, an Xocrat?
Amy Sullivan is one of the useful idiots of Democratic Christianity.
Hmmmmm, an Xocrat?
I mean, if a car accident is my fault or not doesn't matter if my legs are broken -- it's still far worse than having a baby.
Okay, I give: what the hell is this supposed to mean?
Seriously, that sentence makes no sense.
I mean, if a car accident is my fault or not doesn't matter if my legs are broken -- it's still far worse than having a baby.
Okay, I give: what the hell is this supposed to mean?
Seriously, that sentence makes no sense.
loser - I stand corrected. M'bad.
loser - I stand corrected. M'bad.
Is TIME going to put some clockwork monstrosity on the cover?
Is TIME going to put some clockwork monstrosity on the cover?
Well, I'm going off to do two hours of yoga. I sure that will get my mind off torture for the short-term. I keep having dreams about the latest horror brought to our attention... the poor afghanis who were strung up and had their hands put on fire.
Happy holidays, little brown people!
Well, I'm going off to do two hours of yoga. I sure that will get my mind off torture for the short-term. I keep having dreams about the latest horror brought to our attention... the poor afghanis who were strung up and had their hands put on fire.
Happy holidays, little brown people!
When I was 5 1/2 months pregnant what was to be my 2nd child it died in utero. I live in Texas. My doctor, bless her did find a doctor that would perform a DNX for me so that I would not have to deliver the child, who it had severe birth defects it turns out. This was before the procedure was illegal, but was still difficult to find a doctor willing to do the surgery, and no hospital would do it. I had to park in a underground garage, go up a basement elevator, and have a two day procedure in a town, hundreds of miles from home, in a small office procedure room. The staff was wonderful, the doctor comforting and secure that he was doing the right thing for women. Today, it seems a woman in my position 8 years ago doesn't have that option and it saddens me.
When I was 5 1/2 months pregnant what was to be my 2nd child it died in utero. I live in Texas. My doctor, bless her did find a doctor that would perform a DNX for me so that I would not have to deliver the child, who it had severe birth defects it turns out. This was before the procedure was illegal, but was still difficult to find a doctor willing to do the surgery, and no hospital would do it. I had to park in a underground garage, go up a basement elevator, and have a two day procedure in a town, hundreds of miles from home, in a small office procedure room. The staff was wonderful, the doctor comforting and secure that he was doing the right thing for women. Today, it seems a woman in my position 8 years ago doesn't have that option and it saddens me.
If someone WANTS to be pregnant, to have a child, that fetus will be protected at all costs. If someone does not want to be pregnant, its a womb booger.
I think that you've presented a false dichotomy here. If you look at your scenarios, they are both consistent with the protection of a woman's right to control her reproduction whether she chooses to carry a pregnancy to term and reproduce, or chooses to terminate a pregnancy and not reproduce.
If someone WANTS to be pregnant, to have a child, that fetus will be protected at all costs. If someone does not want to be pregnant, its a womb booger.
I think that you've presented a false dichotomy here. If you look at your scenarios, they are both consistent with the protection of a woman's right to control her reproduction whether she chooses to carry a pregnancy to term and reproduce, or chooses to terminate a pregnancy and not reproduce.
Jenny:
His reasoning was that the Dems
needed to save their opposition
artillery for future supreme
court nominations.
When I responded that they nominated
Gonzales for AG precisely so that
they could appoint him to the court
with ease if he's already vetted
as AG, he looked at me as if I was
nuts.
Jenny:
His reasoning was that the Dems
needed to save their opposition
artillery for future supreme
court nominations.
When I responded that they nominated
Gonzales for AG precisely so that
they could appoint him to the court
with ease if he's already vetted
as AG, he looked at me as if I was
nuts.
Time picks Bush as man of the year.
dieselcreek
And we're supposed to give a shit? I guarandamntee you I've bought my last Time magazine, that's for sure.
And is it just me, or did Bush get his haor silvered for that pic?
Wait a minute; Is this a Time Magazine reverse OJ?
Time picks Bush as man of the year.
dieselcreek
And we're supposed to give a shit? I guarandamntee you I've bought my last Time magazine, that's for sure.
And is it just me, or did Bush get his haor silvered for that pic?
Wait a minute; Is this a Time Magazine reverse OJ?
steve -
yes. we've become radicals! when people tell me their liberal creds consist of listening to NPR and reading the New York Times and I laugh I can see they think I've gone a bit nuts.
And I've always thought of myself as a 'quaint' lefty...
steve -
yes. we've become radicals! when people tell me their liberal creds consist of listening to NPR and reading the New York Times and I laugh I can see they think I've gone a bit nuts.
And I've always thought of myself as a 'quaint' lefty...
And the out-and-out anti-abortion
troll will start posting in
ten, nine, eight, seven.....
And the out-and-out anti-abortion
troll will start posting in
ten, nine, eight, seven.....
GN - you are exactly right about this - it is a question of values. The right makes it about murder - in fact, it isn't about that at all. It is about women having no worth other than their wombs. In fact, it is a question of the value of real lives - the lives of the women involved. If the right really insists that this is about life, then they are in the wrong here. The women are alive and fully aware. The fetuses are not.
If more value is placed on the womb and the fetus than on the actual woman, then I maintain that the right does not value life at all.
GN - you are exactly right about this - it is a question of values. The right makes it about murder - in fact, it isn't about that at all. It is about women having no worth other than their wombs. In fact, it is a question of the value of real lives - the lives of the women involved. If the right really insists that this is about life, then they are in the wrong here. The women are alive and fully aware. The fetuses are not.
If more value is placed on the womb and the fetus than on the actual woman, then I maintain that the right does not value life at all.
No. Let the GOP be the ones to take away safe legal abortion.
What a maroon.
No. Let the GOP be the ones to take away safe legal abortion.
What a maroon.
Just to pointlessly defend the piece of shit Time magazine:
The "Person of the Year" title isn't supposed to be an honorific. In 2001, they were supposedly considering picking OBL, though they eventually pussed out and picked Guliani (sp?), for reasons that remain a mystery to me, given that nothing he has ever done has had any particular impact outside of NYC.
.
Just to pointlessly defend the piece of shit Time magazine:
The "Person of the Year" title isn't supposed to be an honorific. In 2001, they were supposedly considering picking OBL, though they eventually pussed out and picked Guliani (sp?), for reasons that remain a mystery to me, given that nothing he has ever done has had any particular impact outside of NYC.
.
If someone WANTS to be pregnant, to have a child, that fetus will be protected at all costs. If someone does not want to be pregnant, its a womb booger. How, or why, did we get to decide that?
The woman who has to carry it gets to decide that. Sorry, it's basic biology. She's the one with the greatest stake in the outcome.
Is having a baby really such a terrible thing?
WHY do we still have to explain reality to some people??? I'm not doing it again. I did it in countless stupid E-mails with a borderline troll this weekend.
I mean, if a car accident is my fault or not doesn't matter if my legs are broken -- it's still far worse than having a baby.
::head spinning:: Being in a car accident that breaks your legs is worse than having to carry and bear a child you don't want???
Aren't there people lined up for adoptions?
Uh, yeah, for healthy Caucasian infants, but that's way beside the point. The point: Women. Are. Not. Incubators.
(Please don't make me go to the "let's force kidney donation" argument.)
If someone WANTS to be pregnant, to have a child, that fetus will be protected at all costs. If someone does not want to be pregnant, its a womb booger. How, or why, did we get to decide that?
The woman who has to carry it gets to decide that. Sorry, it's basic biology. She's the one with the greatest stake in the outcome.
Is having a baby really such a terrible thing?
WHY do we still have to explain reality to some people??? I'm not doing it again. I did it in countless stupid E-mails with a borderline troll this weekend.
I mean, if a car accident is my fault or not doesn't matter if my legs are broken -- it's still far worse than having a baby.
::head spinning:: Being in a car accident that breaks your legs is worse than having to carry and bear a child you don't want???
Aren't there people lined up for adoptions?
Uh, yeah, for healthy Caucasian infants, but that's way beside the point. The point: Women. Are. Not. Incubators.
(Please don't make me go to the "let's force kidney donation" argument.)
Greg: it means things happen to you you cannot control that may fuck up your life and many of them are worse than having a baby.
Greg: it means things happen to you you cannot control that may fuck up your life and many of them are worse than having a baby.
Greg: it means things happen to you you cannot control that may fuck up your life and many of them are worse than having a baby.
And, um, so fucking what? By which I mean, how is this relevant?
Greg: it means things happen to you you cannot control that may fuck up your life and many of them are worse than having a baby.
And, um, so fucking what? By which I mean, how is this relevant?
Silly -- "the woman who carries it decides" still does not answer the question. Why is that? More than one person involved here.
Silly -- "the woman who carries it decides" still does not answer the question. Why is that? More than one person involved here.
steve, how many children have you adopted?
steve, how many children have you adopted?
The "Person of the Year" title isn't supposed to be an honorific.
One year it was Ghandi. Another year, it was Stalin.
The "Person of the Year" title isn't supposed to be an honorific.
One year it was Ghandi. Another year, it was Stalin.
TN:
Oh.
Is having a baby really such a terrible thing?
In many cases, yes. I know of a woman right now who wants to have a child who shouldn't even be allowed to be around children, much less create one.
.
TN:
Oh.
Is having a baby really such a terrible thing?
In many cases, yes. I know of a woman right now who wants to have a child who shouldn't even be allowed to be around children, much less create one.
.
"the woman who carries it decides" still does not answer the question. Why is that? More than one person involved here.
Once again, presuming the conclusion...
"the woman who carries it decides" still does not answer the question. Why is that? More than one person involved here.
Once again, presuming the conclusion...
If someone WANTS to be pregnant, to have a child, that fetus will be protected at all costs. If someone does not want to be pregnant, its a womb booger.
And I want to add an analogy to your scenarios: if an infertile couple chooses to have several eggs fertilized in vitro, and happily has success implanting a fertilized egg on one of the first few tries, does that couple then have the right to demand that the remaining fertilized eggs be destroyed, although they are nurturing an implanted fertilized egg that they plan to carry to term? Is that somehow as morally problematic as your fetus/"womb booger" dichotomy?
If someone WANTS to be pregnant, to have a child, that fetus will be protected at all costs. If someone does not want to be pregnant, its a womb booger.
And I want to add an analogy to your scenarios: if an infertile couple chooses to have several eggs fertilized in vitro, and happily has success implanting a fertilized egg on one of the first few tries, does that couple then have the right to demand that the remaining fertilized eggs be destroyed, although they are nurturing an implanted fertilized egg that they plan to carry to term? Is that somehow as morally problematic as your fetus/"womb booger" dichotomy?
Special Ed:
I'm gay. I'm not allowed to adopt.
Special Ed:
I'm gay. I'm not allowed to adopt.
More than one person involved here.
And there it is, pop!
.
More than one person involved here.
And there it is, pop!
.
TN:
Something about the abortion issue that bothers me, though. Please do not pile on me as a hater, I am not a winger, just tell me why this illogical without shouting:
I'll start with the last of your quetsions and work backwards, though I may not, finally, be able to refrain from shouting a little:
Aren't there people lined up for adoptions?
Allegedly, yes; but only if the babies are white, and vetted free of disabilities...
I mean, if a car accident is my fault or not doesn't matter if my legs are broken -- it's still far worse than having a baby.
Here's where the shouting begins to be difficult to resist...but, as calmly as possible:
1) how long does it take to heal a broken leg? a couple of months? a year? How long to raise a child? 16-20 years? See a difference...
2) in what way does a pregnancy resemble a car crash? is pregnancy supposed to be the inevitable outcom of sex?
i am running out of patience. I am yearning to grab you by the scruff of your neck and thrust you into into a wood chipper...i gotta go...
TN:
Something about the abortion issue that bothers me, though. Please do not pile on me as a hater, I am not a winger, just tell me why this illogical without shouting:
I'll start with the last of your quetsions and work backwards, though I may not, finally, be able to refrain from shouting a little:
Aren't there people lined up for adoptions?
Allegedly, yes; but only if the babies are white, and vetted free of disabilities...
I mean, if a car accident is my fault or not doesn't matter if my legs are broken -- it's still far worse than having a baby.
Here's where the shouting begins to be difficult to resist...but, as calmly as possible:
1) how long does it take to heal a broken leg? a couple of months? a year? How long to raise a child? 16-20 years? See a difference...
2) in what way does a pregnancy resemble a car crash? is pregnancy supposed to be the inevitable outcom of sex?
i am running out of patience. I am yearning to grab you by the scruff of your neck and thrust you into into a wood chipper...i gotta go...
I was looking for something better than an outraged smackdown or a "WHY THHE FUCK SHOULD I HAVE TO EXPLAIN THIS TO YOU" tautology. Like it or not, there are many Americans like me who are concerned about these questions. Not all of them are republicans. If you dismiss our concerns without logic -- and dismiss us as trolls and everything else we say as well, then congrats. A wedge. One that works both ways.
I was looking for something better than an outraged smackdown or a "WHY THHE FUCK SHOULD I HAVE TO EXPLAIN THIS TO YOU" tautology. Like it or not, there are many Americans like me who are concerned about these questions. Not all of them are republicans. If you dismiss our concerns without logic -- and dismiss us as trolls and everything else we say as well, then congrats. A wedge. One that works both ways.
Women. Are. Not. Incubators.
So, sterilize the lot of them?
Women. Are. Not. Incubators.
So, sterilize the lot of them?
Grey Psoda:
Noted, more in sorrow than in anger.
Grey Psoda:
Noted, more in sorrow than in anger.
*sigh*
*sigh*
I was looking for something better than an outraged smackdown or a "WHY THHE FUCK SHOULD I HAVE TO EXPLAIN THIS TO YOU" tautology. Like it or not, there are many Americans like me who are concerned about these questions. Not all of them are republicans. If you dismiss our concerns without logic -- and dismiss us as trolls and everything else we say as well, then congrats. A wedge. One that works both ways.
Sounds like a surrender to me.
Women. Are. Not. Incubators.
So, sterilize the lot of them?
Sounds like a hugely illogical leap to me.
I was looking for something better than an outraged smackdown or a "WHY THHE FUCK SHOULD I HAVE TO EXPLAIN THIS TO YOU" tautology. Like it or not, there are many Americans like me who are concerned about these questions. Not all of them are republicans. If you dismiss our concerns without logic -- and dismiss us as trolls and everything else we say as well, then congrats. A wedge. One that works both ways.
Sounds like a surrender to me.
Women. Are. Not. Incubators.
So, sterilize the lot of them?
Sounds like a hugely illogical leap to me.
GN - you are exactly right about this - it is a question of values. The right makes it about murder - in fact, it isn't about that at all. It is about women having no worth other than their wombs.
That's really what this boils down to. If this were really about anger over the destruction of fertilized eggs, I would assume that the anti-abortion movement would condemn in vitro scenarios (see my post above) where a couple might choose to destroy fertilized eggs. This is about a belief that women should not have the right to control their own reproduction.
GN - you are exactly right about this - it is a question of values. The right makes it about murder - in fact, it isn't about that at all. It is about women having no worth other than their wombs.
That's really what this boils down to. If this were really about anger over the destruction of fertilized eggs, I would assume that the anti-abortion movement would condemn in vitro scenarios (see my post above) where a couple might choose to destroy fertilized eggs. This is about a belief that women should not have the right to control their own reproduction.
Tjo -- that's both horrible and utterly ridiculous. I'm sorry for your loss, and sorry for what you had to go through.
Tena -- on that horrible day when your idea has to come to pass, I'm in. I don't even much care if they make it illegal to help someone obtain an abortion, I'm in. Since I believe it has to be obtainable, I could make no other moral choice but to participate.
Tjo -- that's both horrible and utterly ridiculous. I'm sorry for your loss, and sorry for what you had to go through.
Tena -- on that horrible day when your idea has to come to pass, I'm in. I don't even much care if they make it illegal to help someone obtain an abortion, I'm in. Since I believe it has to be obtainable, I could make no other moral choice but to participate.
steve simels, you don't have a dog in this fight?
So, it's a moral decision?
steve simels, you don't have a dog in this fight?
So, it's a moral decision?
Women. Are. Not. Incubators.
So, sterilize the lot of them?
Special Ed | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 2:09 pm | #
Let's make this as simple as
possible --
a woman's reproductive system is
none of your -- and by your I
mean anybody's -- business but hers.
Women. Are. Not. Incubators.
So, sterilize the lot of them?
Special Ed | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 2:09 pm | #
Let's make this as simple as
possible --
a woman's reproductive system is
none of your -- and by your I
mean anybody's -- business but hers.
Women. Are. Not. Incubators.
So, sterilize the lot of them?
Special Ed | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 2:09 pm | #
Special Ed. I think I know your brother "Short Bus" in real life.
Women. Are. Not. Incubators.
So, sterilize the lot of them?
Special Ed | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 2:09 pm | #
Special Ed. I think I know your brother "Short Bus" in real life.
You see, I feel abortion is wrong, but I do not think it should be illegal. I think there should be less of them. I think there should be alternatives, such as a better way of finding adoptions matches (the old "everyone wants white babies, because only blacks have unwanted children" argument smacks of racism to me).
You see, I feel abortion is wrong, but I do not think it should be illegal. I think there should be less of them. I think there should be alternatives, such as a better way of finding adoptions matches (the old "everyone wants white babies, because only blacks have unwanted children" argument smacks of racism to me).
I was looking for something better than an outraged smackdown or a "WHY THHE FUCK SHOULD I HAVE TO EXPLAIN THIS TO YOU" tautology.
What do you think about my in vitro scenario? Are you as upset at the prospect of a couple choosing to destroy fertilized eggs residing in petri dishes as you might be about a woman (or couple) choosing to destroy a fertilized egg residing in her womb?
I was looking for something better than an outraged smackdown or a "WHY THHE FUCK SHOULD I HAVE TO EXPLAIN THIS TO YOU" tautology.
What do you think about my in vitro scenario? Are you as upset at the prospect of a couple choosing to destroy fertilized eggs residing in petri dishes as you might be about a woman (or couple) choosing to destroy a fertilized egg residing in her womb?
Sorry, rorschach, it was a reduction to absurdity. My reaction to a hyperbolic statement.
Sorry, rorschach, it was a reduction to absurdity. My reaction to a hyperbolic statement.
This just reminds me of the reality-based community argument.
The right-wing seems to think of everything in terms of the perfect ideal. What! It's not perfect? Then get rid of it (New Deal) Basically we all have to attempt to live up to this ideal, which of course is impossible.
Self-loathing seems to come from this perfect ideal. It doesn't seem to produce love and forgiveness, it produces mistrust and fear of that which is different.
The Realist Progressives can see the truth and deal with the realities. We can set goals, but we don't go down with the unrealistic-idealistic ship.
I'm proud of this difference.
.
This just reminds me of the reality-based community argument.
The right-wing seems to think of everything in terms of the perfect ideal. What! It's not perfect? Then get rid of it (New Deal) Basically we all have to attempt to live up to this ideal, which of course is impossible.
Self-loathing seems to come from this perfect ideal. It doesn't seem to produce love and forgiveness, it produces mistrust and fear of that which is different.
The Realist Progressives can see the truth and deal with the realities. We can set goals, but we don't go down with the unrealistic-idealistic ship.
I'm proud of this difference.
.
Hastily and inelegantly phrased on
my part, but you get the idea.
Sorry -- I'm on my third mimosa.
Hastily and inelegantly phrased on
my part, but you get the idea.
Sorry -- I'm on my third mimosa.
This is a GOP psy ops tactic to get Democrats to alienate themselves from their own base!
Hilarious!
I don't buy it. Do you?
This is a GOP psy ops tactic to get Democrats to alienate themselves from their own base!
Hilarious!
I don't buy it. Do you?
QuiltLady - the condom issue is a personal one for me, as I and quite a few people I know (most of us Catholic, not coincidentally) got into various kinds of trouble when we were teenagers that would have been easily avoided had we been better informed and had ready access to condoms. This was the early 1980s, before they were handing them out in schools - you actually had to go buy them at the drugstore, which was totally humiliating for a teen, or else swipe them from parents (assuming they even used them), which was incredibly risky. One time when I did manage to procure one, I accidentally left it sitting on my bathroom counter. I returned later to find that it had disappeared. My mother obviously found it and confiscated it, though she never mentioned it. Obviously she was too shocked at having found it ("Oh my God my baby's having sex!!") and too embarrassed to say anything to me about it. So many parents just shut their eyes and yell out "Lalalalalala I am not listening!" whenever the topic of their kids having sex comes up. If I ever do have kids of my own, not only am I going to buy them condoms in bulk, I'm also going to cover them head-to-toe in Glad Wrap and duct tape before they head out on a Friday night! (Only partly kidding.)
QuiltLady - the condom issue is a personal one for me, as I and quite a few people I know (most of us Catholic, not coincidentally) got into various kinds of trouble when we were teenagers that would have been easily avoided had we been better informed and had ready access to condoms. This was the early 1980s, before they were handing them out in schools - you actually had to go buy them at the drugstore, which was totally humiliating for a teen, or else swipe them from parents (assuming they even used them), which was incredibly risky. One time when I did manage to procure one, I accidentally left it sitting on my bathroom counter. I returned later to find that it had disappeared. My mother obviously found it and confiscated it, though she never mentioned it. Obviously she was too shocked at having found it ("Oh my God my baby's having sex!!") and too embarrassed to say anything to me about it. So many parents just shut their eyes and yell out "Lalalalalala I am not listening!" whenever the topic of their kids having sex comes up. If I ever do have kids of my own, not only am I going to buy them condoms in bulk, I'm also going to cover them head-to-toe in Glad Wrap and duct tape before they head out on a Friday night! (Only partly kidding.)
You see, I feel abortion is wrong, but I do not think it should be illegal.
Well, then, you definitely are a Democrat in regard to this issue. Democrats want abortions to be safe, legal, and rare. And abortion rates have risen since W took office. So there you go.
You see, I feel abortion is wrong, but I do not think it should be illegal.
Well, then, you definitely are a Democrat in regard to this issue. Democrats want abortions to be safe, legal, and rare. And abortion rates have risen since W took office. So there you go.
Is a baby part of a woman's reproductive system? I know that it's in there, but is it a part of it?
Is a baby part of a woman's reproductive system? I know that it's in there, but is it a part of it?
You know, some day I'll probably be forced to listen to this same 'discussion' over something like organ renewal. Should we? Shouldn't we?
And then, once again, I will question how on earth a bunch of people without medical licenses or degrees got involved in any way whatsover with a medical procedure.
There's an essay by Carl Becker I think of often - 'Every Man His Own Historian'. In it "It argued against the popular notion that history should be a scientific enterprise aimed at revealing objective truth. History is rather “an imaginative creation” that “each one of us fashions out of his individual experience.”" For that profession, I have my doubts about both sides of the equation. For the little matter of medical activity conducted on the human body I really don't. I really cannot countenance the meddling of untrained, untutored, homeschooled -folk- who believe that their mere existence gives them the capacity - not the right, the bloodyminded capacity - to make a decision about a medical matter.
You know, some day I'll probably be forced to listen to this same 'discussion' over something like organ renewal. Should we? Shouldn't we?
And then, once again, I will question how on earth a bunch of people without medical licenses or degrees got involved in any way whatsover with a medical procedure.
There's an essay by Carl Becker I think of often - 'Every Man His Own Historian'. In it "It argued against the popular notion that history should be a scientific enterprise aimed at revealing objective truth. History is rather “an imaginative creation” that “each one of us fashions out of his individual experience.”" For that profession, I have my doubts about both sides of the equation. For the little matter of medical activity conducted on the human body I really don't. I really cannot countenance the meddling of untrained, untutored, homeschooled -folk- who believe that their mere existence gives them the capacity - not the right, the bloodyminded capacity - to make a decision about a medical matter.
Speaking on behalf of traveling parents: Bite us.
Speaking on behalf of traveling parents: Bite us.
steve simels, you don't have a dog in this fight?
So, it's a moral decision?
Special Ed | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 2:12 pm | #
And your point is.....
steve simels, you don't have a dog in this fight?
So, it's a moral decision?
Special Ed | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 2:12 pm | #
And your point is.....
But seriously, I don't know of anyone who says that anti-choicers are not welcome in the Dem. party.
I have said this and said this and said this. Especially the last time this Sullivan idiot was under discussion.
Not a SINGLE anti-choice person could tell me why they didn't feel welcome in the party, nor what they defined as "accommodating" them.
They could not tell me how the Democratic party could be anti-choice yet tell me ONE INSTANCE where the party ever said it does not respect and support the choice not to abort of anyone who makes that choice. The anti-choicers could not point to one instance where the party ever said it believed the government has the right to tell you NOT to have a child, and that it will not let the government stand by and do nothing if someone takes it upon themselves to take your choice from you (Bobbi Stennet).
AT THE SAME TIME, if you want or NEED an abortion, the Democrats respect YOUR right to have one that is safe and legal. The unborn child's rights ARE considered, as rights increase as the pregnancy progresses. Since Roe, women cannot--and have never--been able to choose to abort after reaching the third trimester, just because they wanted to. It is a lie of the first order to say Roe decreed that they could.
These anti-choicers say that we don't "address their concerns." BULLSHIT. What you're really saying is that we (and by extension the party) are not adopting your PERSONAAL beliefs about abortion.
You're saying that you want the party to make abortion "icky," and we aren't going to do that. Safe, legal abortions are not icky. They're certainly not as icky as what will come if abortion is made illegal again. The anti-choicers scream about the rights of the unborn. They forget that when abortion is illegal, abortions don't stop. The unborn die anyway, and, far too often, so do their mothers--mothers who are wives, lovers, sisters, daughters, friends and often mothers to other children.
Explain how THAT isn't icky?
But seriously, I don't know of anyone who says that anti-choicers are not welcome in the Dem. party.
I have said this and said this and said this. Especially the last time this Sullivan idiot was under discussion.
Not a SINGLE anti-choice person could tell me why they didn't feel welcome in the party, nor what they defined as "accommodating" them.
They could not tell me how the Democratic party could be anti-choice yet tell me ONE INSTANCE where the party ever said it does not respect and support the choice not to abort of anyone who makes that choice. The anti-choicers could not point to one instance where the party ever said it believed the government has the right to tell you NOT to have a child, and that it will not let the government stand by and do nothing if someone takes it upon themselves to take your choice from you (Bobbi Stennet).
AT THE SAME TIME, if you want or NEED an abortion, the Democrats respect YOUR right to have one that is safe and legal. The unborn child's rights ARE considered, as rights increase as the pregnancy progresses. Since Roe, women cannot--and have never--been able to choose to abort after reaching the third trimester, just because they wanted to. It is a lie of the first order to say Roe decreed that they could.
These anti-choicers say that we don't "address their concerns." BULLSHIT. What you're really saying is that we (and by extension the party) are not adopting your PERSONAAL beliefs about abortion.
You're saying that you want the party to make abortion "icky," and we aren't going to do that. Safe, legal abortions are not icky. They're certainly not as icky as what will come if abortion is made illegal again. The anti-choicers scream about the rights of the unborn. They forget that when abortion is illegal, abortions don't stop. The unborn die anyway, and, far too often, so do their mothers--mothers who are wives, lovers, sisters, daughters, friends and often mothers to other children.
Explain how THAT isn't icky?
No surrender. Yet. How come we can agree on so many issues in here but as soon as I express my concern about this I get people going LGF on me. Can't anyone look at this rationally? I am getting slogans, not solutions. Yes, there's aother slogan. Yes, women are not incubators. However, this is currently the only way new people come into the world. And could we please save the violence and threats for the wingers who have actually made them? How does having some ethical concerns about abortion and not being an absolutist make me an enemy?
No surrender. Yet. How come we can agree on so many issues in here but as soon as I express my concern about this I get people going LGF on me. Can't anyone look at this rationally? I am getting slogans, not solutions. Yes, there's aother slogan. Yes, women are not incubators. However, this is currently the only way new people come into the world. And could we please save the violence and threats for the wingers who have actually made them? How does having some ethical concerns about abortion and not being an absolutist make me an enemy?
Silly -- "the woman who carries it decides" still does not answer the question. Why is that? More than one person involved here.
In your opinion. Not in mine, not at most points during a pregnancy. In any event, the "rights" of a potential person should NOT supersede the rights of a long-established person.
Sorry you wanted to ask questions and not get a smack-down, but your questions all boil down to exactly the kind of "women don't matter" CRAP we hear all the time from the vast majority of anti-choicers and it is not viewed with a friendly eye. Some of us have to take this issue EXTREMELY personally.
Silly -- "the woman who carries it decides" still does not answer the question. Why is that? More than one person involved here.
In your opinion. Not in mine, not at most points during a pregnancy. In any event, the "rights" of a potential person should NOT supersede the rights of a long-established person.
Sorry you wanted to ask questions and not get a smack-down, but your questions all boil down to exactly the kind of "women don't matter" CRAP we hear all the time from the vast majority of anti-choicers and it is not viewed with a friendly eye. Some of us have to take this issue EXTREMELY personally.
alright, i'm not good at analogies but i'll attempt one here to try to make my point. remember that tucker carlson story about how back when bush was governor of texas, he made fun of the execution of karla fay tucker? "please don't kill me," he mocked her, in a whimpering voice. do you think someone's position on the death penalty really determines how disgusted they are at that, or do you think that most decent people on both sides of the issue, recognize that life and death isn't something to be joked about in such a crass way? my point is basically this: we as humans are still relatively unevolved (i hope that's the case anyway, otherwise this is it?!) and when it comes to matters of life and death, we really don't know what the fuck we're talking about. when democrats talk about abortion like it's some big joke, it makes me feel the same way as when republicans talk cavalierly about the death penalty.
i would never change my position or party over talk i find crass, that would be ridiculous. but seriously, democrats are so dead set on losing as many points with as many people as possible. ok, you don't wanna say abortion is icky, fine, who cares, just stop being so fucking happy about it.
alright, i'm not good at analogies but i'll attempt one here to try to make my point. remember that tucker carlson story about how back when bush was governor of texas, he made fun of the execution of karla fay tucker? "please don't kill me," he mocked her, in a whimpering voice. do you think someone's position on the death penalty really determines how disgusted they are at that, or do you think that most decent people on both sides of the issue, recognize that life and death isn't something to be joked about in such a crass way? my point is basically this: we as humans are still relatively unevolved (i hope that's the case anyway, otherwise this is it?!) and when it comes to matters of life and death, we really don't know what the fuck we're talking about. when democrats talk about abortion like it's some big joke, it makes me feel the same way as when republicans talk cavalierly about the death penalty.
i would never change my position or party over talk i find crass, that would be ridiculous. but seriously, democrats are so dead set on losing as many points with as many people as possible. ok, you don't wanna say abortion is icky, fine, who cares, just stop being so fucking happy about it.
Is a baby part of a woman's reproductive system? I know that it's in there, but is it a part of it?
Special Ed
Choosing to carry a pregnancy to term is an reproductive health issue.
Is a baby part of a woman's reproductive system? I know that it's in there, but is it a part of it?
Special Ed
Choosing to carry a pregnancy to term is an reproductive health issue.
Is a baby part of a woman's reproductive system? I know that it's in there, but is
it a part of it?
Special Ed | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 2:16 pm | #
Je repete -- its none of your goddamn
business.
What about this don't you get?
Is a baby part of a woman's reproductive system? I know that it's in there, but is
it a part of it?
Special Ed | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 2:16 pm | #
Je repete -- its none of your goddamn
business.
What about this don't you get?
Is a baby part of a woman's reproductive system? I know that it's in there, but is it a part of it?
Do you understand that your use of the word "baby" presumes certain conclusions?
Is a baby part of a woman's reproductive system? I know that it's in there, but is it a part of it?
Do you understand that your use of the word "baby" presumes certain conclusions?
abortion IS icky.
Grow the fuck up.
Lots of things are icky. Menstruating every month that you don't get pregnant is icky. Pregnancy and delivery are icky. Penile implants and the side effects of Viagara are icky. Plastic surgery is icky. We don't criminalize things that are icky.
Here's what's really icky: me not being in control of my own body. In fact, that's about as icky as it can get. It's what happens to slaves and prisoners. It's a lot more icky than going to a nice clear doctor's office and getting a pill that brings on your period or having an outpatient procedure that removes an unwanted fetus.
Goddess guard us. I'm supposed to go through an unwanted preganancy and delivery so grown-up adult people won't have to even consider something icky. Robert M. Jeffers, is there room left in Bedlam?
abortion IS icky.
Grow the fuck up.
Lots of things are icky. Menstruating every month that you don't get pregnant is icky. Pregnancy and delivery are icky. Penile implants and the side effects of Viagara are icky. Plastic surgery is icky. We don't criminalize things that are icky.
Here's what's really icky: me not being in control of my own body. In fact, that's about as icky as it can get. It's what happens to slaves and prisoners. It's a lot more icky than going to a nice clear doctor's office and getting a pill that brings on your period or having an outpatient procedure that removes an unwanted fetus.
Goddess guard us. I'm supposed to go through an unwanted preganancy and delivery so grown-up adult people won't have to even consider something icky. Robert M. Jeffers, is there room left in Bedlam?
Can't anyone look at this rationally?
I think several commenters have tried to rationally answer you. But answer me: since you think that abortion is murderous, is the destruction of fertilized eggs residing in petri dishes rather than a woman's womb equally as murderous and immoral?
Can't anyone look at this rationally?
I think several commenters have tried to rationally answer you. But answer me: since you think that abortion is murderous, is the destruction of fertilized eggs residing in petri dishes rather than a woman's womb equally as murderous and immoral?
Is having a baby really such a terrible thing?
Let me guess: you don't know anyone who's actually ever had an abortion.
To be honest, neither do I (that I know of). But I do know a number of children born out of wedlock, some of whom are the offspring of a clearly unfit mother. This woman could have, but did not, abort her pregnancies; she has repeatedly demonstrated her intent to use them as AFDC revenue sources.
These children are fortunate enough to belong to an extended family which loves them and does its best to compensate for their mother's incompetence and indifference. But while this family loves these children dearly and would have been horrified at the thought of their not having been born, none of them - not a single one - would condone the denial of a safe, legal abortion to their mother, or to any woman who wanted one.
Because I am not a father and am likely never to become one, I know the relevant choices and experiences second-hand, at best. So I try to stay out of this issue. I wish more people would, especially if they think of abortion as a pleasure or a convenience. I have never seen any evidence to suggest that it is.
Is having a baby really such a terrible thing?
Let me guess: you don't know anyone who's actually ever had an abortion.
To be honest, neither do I (that I know of). But I do know a number of children born out of wedlock, some of whom are the offspring of a clearly unfit mother. This woman could have, but did not, abort her pregnancies; she has repeatedly demonstrated her intent to use them as AFDC revenue sources.
These children are fortunate enough to belong to an extended family which loves them and does its best to compensate for their mother's incompetence and indifference. But while this family loves these children dearly and would have been horrified at the thought of their not having been born, none of them - not a single one - would condone the denial of a safe, legal abortion to their mother, or to any woman who wanted one.
Because I am not a father and am likely never to become one, I know the relevant choices and experiences second-hand, at best. So I try to stay out of this issue. I wish more people would, especially if they think of abortion as a pleasure or a convenience. I have never seen any evidence to suggest that it is.
abortion IS icky.
To repeat:
Abortion is nothing to be ashamed of.
Abortion is nothing to be ashamed of.
Abortion is nothing to be ashamed of.
Abortion is nothing to be ashamed of.
abortion IS icky.
To repeat:
Abortion is nothing to be ashamed of.
Abortion is nothing to be ashamed of.
Abortion is nothing to be ashamed of.
Abortion is nothing to be ashamed of.
Hecate--I find it interesting that this word, "icky," comes up so often in discussion of A) women's bodies and B) gay male sex.
Apparently, aesthetics equals ethics in these two arenas...
Hecate--I find it interesting that this word, "icky," comes up so often in discussion of A) women's bodies and B) gay male sex.
Apparently, aesthetics equals ethics in these two arenas...
Oh, and here's the story behind that picture I provided. Explain icky to me again.
Gerri's story.
Oh, and here's the story behind that picture I provided. Explain icky to me again.
Gerri's story.
Hecate:
Sorry to go OT here, but I'm sorry
I bummed you out about Ritchie
Blackmore yesterday.
Hecate:
Sorry to go OT here, but I'm sorry
I bummed you out about Ritchie
Blackmore yesterday.
GN -- sorry to not get to this yet, but no. I do not think a brand new fertilized egg is a person. If it is left in a petri dish it will die.
GN -- sorry to not get to this yet, but no. I do not think a brand new fertilized egg is a person. If it is left in a petri dish it will die.
GN -- sorry to not get to this yet, but no. I do not think a brand new fertilized egg is a person. If it is left in a petri dish it will die.
TN
If a fertilized egg is not a person, then why is abortion murderous?
GN -- sorry to not get to this yet, but no. I do not think a brand new fertilized egg is a person. If it is left in a petri dish it will die.
TN
If a fertilized egg is not a person, then why is abortion murderous?
In any event, the "rights" of a potential person should NOT supersede the rights of a long-established person.
Slippery slope, equating choice against inconvenience with choice against survival.
If it becomes inconvenient for me to have my brother around as an invalid, can I "abort" him?
Choosing to carry a pregnancy to term is an reproductive health issue.
Isn't it natural and healthy to carry to term? I thought that pregnant women seldom die from pregnancy complications, they die from external causes. See thread above ...
In any event, the "rights" of a potential person should NOT supersede the rights of a long-established person.
Slippery slope, equating choice against inconvenience with choice against survival.
If it becomes inconvenient for me to have my brother around as an invalid, can I "abort" him?
Choosing to carry a pregnancy to term is an reproductive health issue.
Isn't it natural and healthy to carry to term? I thought that pregnant women seldom die from pregnancy complications, they die from external causes. See thread above ...
just stop being so fucking happy about it.
No. I won't stop being so fucking happy about it. Safe legal abortion saves women's lives. It prevents all the horrors that we know go along with unwanted children being unleashed on society. It keeps down the population on an already grossly-overpopulated globe. It allows women to compete in education and the job world on a somewhat more even footing with men. It allows women to control their own bodies. I am happy that safe legal abortion is available and I'm not going to indulge your personal tastes by walking around in sackcloth and ashes. Dipshit.
just stop being so fucking happy about it.
No. I won't stop being so fucking happy about it. Safe legal abortion saves women's lives. It prevents all the horrors that we know go along with unwanted children being unleashed on society. It keeps down the population on an already grossly-overpopulated globe. It allows women to compete in education and the job world on a somewhat more even footing with men. It allows women to control their own bodies. I am happy that safe legal abortion is available and I'm not going to indulge your personal tastes by walking around in sackcloth and ashes. Dipshit.
joey - you are being disingenuous. Where do you get the idea that democrats are "so happy" about abortion?
We aren't - you are projecting that onto us and let me point out that that is the right's favorite trick.
joey - you are being disingenuous. Where do you get the idea that democrats are "so happy" about abortion?
We aren't - you are projecting that onto us and let me point out that that is the right's favorite trick.
You see, I feel abortion is wrong, but I do not think it should be illegal. I think there should be less of them.
TN, I think there should be less abortions, too, but not for the same reasons you do.(I simply don't think women ought to have to go through it, not when we could probably EASILY find ways to end unwanted pregnancy now, but won't.) Anyway, there's a tiny parcel of common ground for you, from me anyway. It's when you get to questioning "why" women have the right to end a pregnancy that our eyes begin to glaze over.
I think there should be alternatives, such as a better way of finding adoptions matches (the old "everyone wants white babies, because only blacks have unwanted children" argument smacks of racism to me).
Adoption is NOT always a good answer, even if you overlook the trauma of having to carry, deliver, and give up a baby. And "everyone wants white babies" is not racism -- it's simple reality that healthy white infants are the ones who are adopted first.
You see, I feel abortion is wrong, but I do not think it should be illegal. I think there should be less of them.
TN, I think there should be less abortions, too, but not for the same reasons you do.(I simply don't think women ought to have to go through it, not when we could probably EASILY find ways to end unwanted pregnancy now, but won't.) Anyway, there's a tiny parcel of common ground for you, from me anyway. It's when you get to questioning "why" women have the right to end a pregnancy that our eyes begin to glaze over.
I think there should be alternatives, such as a better way of finding adoptions matches (the old "everyone wants white babies, because only blacks have unwanted children" argument smacks of racism to me).
Adoption is NOT always a good answer, even if you overlook the trauma of having to carry, deliver, and give up a baby. And "everyone wants white babies" is not racism -- it's simple reality that healthy white infants are the ones who are adopted first.
TN:
With all due respect....and I mean
that....
You are totally entitled to have
moral qualms about abortion.
Unfortunately, in the real world,
those qualms make you a tool of
the Republicans.
Sorry, but that's the way it is....
TN:
With all due respect....and I mean
that....
You are totally entitled to have
moral qualms about abortion.
Unfortunately, in the real world,
those qualms make you a tool of
the Republicans.
Sorry, but that's the way it is....
Let me guess: you don't know anyone who's actually ever had an abortion.
To be honest, neither do I (that I know of).
Actually, I would bet anything that both of you do, in fact, know someone who's had an abortion.
A LOT of women have abortions; very few talk about it. This is part of the problem, I think: it allows people to think of the issue in terms that are too abstract, too focused on people they don't know, when actually this is about their wives, daughters, etc.
I didn't realize this until I actually found myself in an abortion clinic (with a woman; I am male) and saw a waiting room that was filled to capacity and then some.
And when you do start talking about abortion, stories about people who have had them start coming out of the woodwork.
Abortion is a common procedure (for now). It is nothing to be ashamed of, and IMO rhetoric like "Abortion is wrong, but it shouldn't be illegal" ultimately does the pro-choice movement a disservice. There is an enormous amount of shame surrounding this issue that needs to be removed.
www.imnotsorry.net
.
Let me guess: you don't know anyone who's actually ever had an abortion.
To be honest, neither do I (that I know of).
Actually, I would bet anything that both of you do, in fact, know someone who's had an abortion.
A LOT of women have abortions; very few talk about it. This is part of the problem, I think: it allows people to think of the issue in terms that are too abstract, too focused on people they don't know, when actually this is about their wives, daughters, etc.
I didn't realize this until I actually found myself in an abortion clinic (with a woman; I am male) and saw a waiting room that was filled to capacity and then some.
And when you do start talking about abortion, stories about people who have had them start coming out of the woodwork.
Abortion is a common procedure (for now). It is nothing to be ashamed of, and IMO rhetoric like "Abortion is wrong, but it shouldn't be illegal" ultimately does the pro-choice movement a disservice. There is an enormous amount of shame surrounding this issue that needs to be removed.
www.imnotsorry.net
.
Saying liberals like abortion is a way of framing liberals to be in the same ilk as Satan.
It's defamation and slander and all a part of the inaccurate, imprecise language wingnuts are using to frame their opponents before they get to the argument.
This is subversive, wingnut ideology trying to frame our argument for us and frame our individual choices.
They did it with homosexual issues...they're also doing it with educators... I've cited twice in the last week (on my blog) where people of my profession are called"terrorists" and "Taliban-like" by these jerks. Of course, it’s happening a lot.
First make your opponent seem to be without virtue...make people afraid to support them...then spin your argument with a web of lies.
lies.
Saying liberals like abortion is a way of framing liberals to be in the same ilk as Satan.
It's defamation and slander and all a part of the inaccurate, imprecise language wingnuts are using to frame their opponents before they get to the argument.
This is subversive, wingnut ideology trying to frame our argument for us and frame our individual choices.
They did it with homosexual issues...they're also doing it with educators... I've cited twice in the last week (on my blog) where people of my profession are called"terrorists" and "Taliban-like" by these jerks. Of course, it’s happening a lot.
First make your opponent seem to be without virtue...make people afraid to support them...then spin your argument with a web of lies.
lies.
If it becomes inconvenient for me to have my brother around as an invalid, can I "abort" him?
Is he in your womb?
If it becomes inconvenient for me to have my brother around as an invalid, can I "abort" him?
Is he in your womb?
LSorry, rorschach, it was a reduction to absurdity. My reaction to a hyperbolic statement.
Special Ed | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 2:14 pm | #
Problem is you missed the logic behind it.
Saying "women aren't incubators" isn't saying that "women shouldn't have children".
By leaping to "so steralize them" you sort of let on that you actually do think women are basically incubators.
LSorry, rorschach, it was a reduction to absurdity. My reaction to a hyperbolic statement.
Special Ed | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 2:14 pm | #
Problem is you missed the logic behind it.
Saying "women aren't incubators" isn't saying that "women shouldn't have children".
By leaping to "so steralize them" you sort of let on that you actually do think women are basically incubators.
It isn't a question of baby vs. womb booger - what a thing to say.
Unless you've been there, I respectfully want to say that you have no idea what you are talking about. Just like joey.
Women are not casual about this. It is not an easy decision. For fuck's sake - I wish the anti-choice people would quit thinking that women just waltz in any time a pregnancy is "inconvenient" and end it like they were getting a haircut. It is not that way. God fucking damn it.
It isn't a question of baby vs. womb booger - what a thing to say.
Unless you've been there, I respectfully want to say that you have no idea what you are talking about. Just like joey.
Women are not casual about this. It is not an easy decision. For fuck's sake - I wish the anti-choice people would quit thinking that women just waltz in any time a pregnancy is "inconvenient" and end it like they were getting a haircut. It is not that way. God fucking damn it.
"terrorists"
fixed the bad link on my long-winded rant of a post.
"terrorists"
fixed the bad link on my long-winded rant of a post.
Hecate:
I love you. Won't walk around in sackcloth and ashes. Thank you. 
Hecate:
I love you. Won't walk around in sackcloth and ashes. Thank you.
Isn't it natural and healthy to carry to term?
Isn't it natural and healthy to stay off birth control? The point that I think you're missing is: in either scenario, you don't get to decide. Just as I don't get to decide whether you are allowed to use condoms or not.
Isn't it natural and healthy to carry to term?
Isn't it natural and healthy to stay off birth control? The point that I think you're missing is: in either scenario, you don't get to decide. Just as I don't get to decide whether you are allowed to use condoms or not.
Isn't it natural and healthy to carry to term? I thought that pregnant women seldom die from pregnancy complications, they die from external causes. See thread above ...
Before the 20th Century, a lot of women died from bearing children.
Isn't it natural and healthy to carry to term? I thought that pregnant women seldom die from pregnancy complications, they die from external causes. See thread above ...
Before the 20th Century, a lot of women died from bearing children.
Hecate, no, but entirely dependent upon me for his lie. Without me to feed and medicate him, he dies. There is a small chance that he will someday get better.
But, dammit, I don't want to do this anymore, much less for the next 20 years!
Okay, I "abort" him. But I don't feel good about it.
steve simels, I take your point. Why haven't you shut the fuck up about it?
Hecate, no, but entirely dependent upon me for his lie. Without me to feed and medicate him, he dies. There is a small chance that he will someday get better.
But, dammit, I don't want to do this anymore, much less for the next 20 years!
Okay, I "abort" him. But I don't feel good about it.
steve simels, I take your point. Why haven't you shut the fuck up about it?
Well, we all know that liberals are all evil lesbians impregnating themselves with turkey basters so that they can have abortions and thereby feel "empowered."
Right?
And we all agree that there should be FEWER abortions. Not LESS abortions.
/pedant.
Well, we all know that liberals are all evil lesbians impregnating themselves with turkey basters so that they can have abortions and thereby feel "empowered."
Right?
And we all agree that there should be FEWER abortions. Not LESS abortions.
/pedant.
If it becomes inconvenient for me to have my brother around as an invalid, can I "abort" him?
Is it possible for anyone else to care for your invalid brother? Or is he physically attached to your body and drawing on you for sustenance that he could get from no other source? Must he throw your physical body into turmoil akin to labor and delivery in order to survive?
Do you begin to see a difference, or are you just here to throw out ridiculous attempts at parallels?
If it becomes inconvenient for me to have my brother around as an invalid, can I "abort" him?
Is it possible for anyone else to care for your invalid brother? Or is he physically attached to your body and drawing on you for sustenance that he could get from no other source? Must he throw your physical body into turmoil akin to labor and delivery in order to survive?
Do you begin to see a difference, or are you just here to throw out ridiculous attempts at parallels?
Women are not casual about this, it is not an easy decision to make, but there should also be no shame about having an abortion?
What is it to be?
And please do not presume I am either 1) a man or 2) don't know anyone who has had an abortion or 3) have not had one or been pregnant myself.
Women are not casual about this, it is not an easy decision to make, but there should also be no shame about having an abortion?
What is it to be?
And please do not presume I am either 1) a man or 2) don't know anyone who has had an abortion or 3) have not had one or been pregnant myself.
Now who would say a woman's body is "Icky"?!?
That doesn't compute.
.
Now who would say a woman's body is "Icky"?!?
That doesn't compute.
.
Stop.
I'm still wondering why someone has their brother in their womb.
Stop.
I'm still wondering why someone has their brother in their womb.
And please do not presume I am either 1) a man or 2) don't know anyone who has had an abortion or 3) have not had one or been pregnant myself.
TN | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 2:33 pm | #
Are you a man?
Have you had an abortion?
Have you ever been pregnant?
I'll answer first. Man. Never been pregnent or had an abortion.
Your turn.
And please do not presume I am either 1) a man or 2) don't know anyone who has had an abortion or 3) have not had one or been pregnant myself.
TN | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 2:33 pm | #
Are you a man?
Have you had an abortion?
Have you ever been pregnant?
I'll answer first. Man. Never been pregnent or had an abortion.
Your turn.
Without me to feed and medicate him, he dies. There is a small chance that he will someday get better.
But, dammit, I don't want to do this anymore, much less for the next 20 years!
So a fertilized egg=disabled adult. So you would support not allowing couples who have fertilized eggs for in vitro procudures to destroy these eggs, right? They should be forced to implant each one of those eggs into the female, right?
Without me to feed and medicate him, he dies. There is a small chance that he will someday get better.
But, dammit, I don't want to do this anymore, much less for the next 20 years!
So a fertilized egg=disabled adult. So you would support not allowing couples who have fertilized eggs for in vitro procudures to destroy these eggs, right? They should be forced to implant each one of those eggs into the female, right?
oh, never mind...that's not a brother...it's a red herring. I'm getting better at spotting those.
What are you doing with a red herring in your womb.
/ concrete thinking
oh, never mind...that's not a brother...it's a red herring. I'm getting better at spotting those.
What are you doing with a red herring in your womb.
/ concrete thinking
I wish the anti-choice people would quit thinking that women just waltz in any time a pregnancy is "inconvenient" and end it like they were getting a haircut. It is not that way. God fucking damn it.
I have to wonder if these bastards realize that abortions are, to put it mildly, not cheap.
.
I wish the anti-choice people would quit thinking that women just waltz in any time a pregnancy is "inconvenient" and end it like they were getting a haircut. It is not that way. God fucking damn it.
I have to wonder if these bastards realize that abortions are, to put it mildly, not cheap.
.
Women are not casual about this, it is not an easy decision to make, but there should also be no shame about having an abortion?
No, there should be no shame.
Now who would say a woman's body is "Icky"?!?
That doesn't compute.
Only a few thousand years of Western culture...
Women are not casual about this, it is not an easy decision to make, but there should also be no shame about having an abortion?
No, there should be no shame.
Now who would say a woman's body is "Icky"?!?
That doesn't compute.
Only a few thousand years of Western culture...
Special Ed, thank you! Whew! For a moment there, I was thinking, jeez, guys cut the dude some slack; OK, it wasn't the most compassionate thing anyones ever said, and maybe a bit pointyheaded, but at least it was pointed in the right direction, ya know?, and then you gave us
-------------
Women. Are. Not. Incubators.
So, sterilize the lot of them?
-------------
Now, what the actual fuck is that? How the word "sterilize" even gets into this conversation is beyond me. You are bringing nothing to this debate, not even comic relief.
Steve & Rorschach, I withdraw my quibble, he's all yers. As for me; PLONK!
Special Ed, thank you! Whew! For a moment there, I was thinking, jeez, guys cut the dude some slack; OK, it wasn't the most compassionate thing anyones ever said, and maybe a bit pointyheaded, but at least it was pointed in the right direction, ya know?, and then you gave us
-------------
Women. Are. Not. Incubators.
So, sterilize the lot of them?
-------------
Now, what the actual fuck is that? How the word "sterilize" even gets into this conversation is beyond me. You are bringing nothing to this debate, not even comic relief.
Steve & Rorschach, I withdraw my quibble, he's all yers. As for me; PLONK!
Before the 20th Century, a lot of women died from bearing children.
And aborting a pregnancy still carries less medical risk than carrying one to term. That's not, in and of itself, a reason to abort, obviously, but it remains a fact. Despite the fact that the fundies are now desperately trying to trumpet some mythical causative factor between abortion and breast cancer.
Before the 20th Century, a lot of women died from bearing children.
And aborting a pregnancy still carries less medical risk than carrying one to term. That's not, in and of itself, a reason to abort, obviously, but it remains a fact. Despite the fact that the fundies are now desperately trying to trumpet some mythical causative factor between abortion and breast cancer.
If it becomes inconvenient for me to have my brother around as an invalid, can I "abort" him?
Anti-choicers:
Look up and read Judith Jarvis Thompson's article "A Defense of Abortion" if you want to know why a woman has no moral obligation whatsoever to carry a pregnancy to term.
.
If it becomes inconvenient for me to have my brother around as an invalid, can I "abort" him?
Anti-choicers:
Look up and read Judith Jarvis Thompson's article "A Defense of Abortion" if you want to know why a woman has no moral obligation whatsoever to carry a pregnancy to term.
.
TN, what I don't get is that you admitted above that a fertilized egg which happens to reside in a petri dish can be destroyed without any moral implications. You said that a fertilized egg is "not a person" and would die if not implanted. How then can you attach all sorts of moral implications to the act of destroying a fertilized egg (as part of a woman's right to control her reproductive health) in a woman's womb? I don't see enough of a difference in these two scenarios to warrant your wildly different views of each act of destroying a fertilized egg.
TN, what I don't get is that you admitted above that a fertilized egg which happens to reside in a petri dish can be destroyed without any moral implications. You said that a fertilized egg is "not a person" and would die if not implanted. How then can you attach all sorts of moral implications to the act of destroying a fertilized egg (as part of a woman's right to control her reproductive health) in a woman's womb? I don't see enough of a difference in these two scenarios to warrant your wildly different views of each act of destroying a fertilized egg.
SW, I understood entirely. Is there another way of having children? Aren't women the only ones who can have human babies? I didn't say that they are ONLY incubators. In fact, I didn't use that term.
Further, this is the 21st century, not the 19th. The choice of whether to have a baby or not began at conception, no? After that, YOU'VE ALREADY MADE YOUR CHOICE. You just have to decide whether you want to honor the choice YOU made, or "abort" the one person who didn't have a say in the matter.
SW, I understood entirely. Is there another way of having children? Aren't women the only ones who can have human babies? I didn't say that they are ONLY incubators. In fact, I didn't use that term.
Further, this is the 21st century, not the 19th. The choice of whether to have a baby or not began at conception, no? After that, YOU'VE ALREADY MADE YOUR CHOICE. You just have to decide whether you want to honor the choice YOU made, or "abort" the one person who didn't have a say in the matter.
SWR -- does that now mean we are not allowed to have any opinions on this?
SWR -- does that now mean we are not allowed to have any opinions on this?
Special Ed,
Your brother does not get his sustenance through a tube attached to your bloodstream. There are agencies that will support him if you won't or can't. Your example makes no sense.
Here's a better one. There are people who are alive today who need a donated kidney in order to survive. We don't have to have the argument about whether or not they're alive yet or human. You've got two kidneys and, although there's danger and discomfort involved in the operation and in subsequently living with only one kidney, it's medically common to remove one kidney from and donor and implant it into a person who need one. But we don't force people to donate their kidneys. Your own mother or brother or child can be in the hospital dying from kidney failure and no one can force you to donate one of your kidneys. The hospital and the state will stand there and watch your relative die and won't make even the slightest move to take away your kidney. Why? Because it's your body and you get to decide what happens to it.
Ditto with my womb.
Special Ed,
Your brother does not get his sustenance through a tube attached to your bloodstream. There are agencies that will support him if you won't or can't. Your example makes no sense.
Here's a better one. There are people who are alive today who need a donated kidney in order to survive. We don't have to have the argument about whether or not they're alive yet or human. You've got two kidneys and, although there's danger and discomfort involved in the operation and in subsequently living with only one kidney, it's medically common to remove one kidney from and donor and implant it into a person who need one. But we don't force people to donate their kidneys. Your own mother or brother or child can be in the hospital dying from kidney failure and no one can force you to donate one of your kidneys. The hospital and the state will stand there and watch your relative die and won't make even the slightest move to take away your kidney. Why? Because it's your body and you get to decide what happens to it.
Ditto with my womb.
Man, what I wouldn't pay to see an out-and-out hair-pulling cat fight between Tena and That Idiot Amy...
Man, what I wouldn't pay to see an out-and-out hair-pulling cat fight between Tena and That Idiot Amy...
And aborting a pregnancy still carries less medical risk than carrying one to term. That's not, in and of itself, a reason to abort, obviously, but it remains a fact. Despite the fact that the fundies are now desperately trying to trumpet some mythical causative factor between abortion and breast cancer.
That bullshit assertion really pissed me off--about the abortion/breast cancer connection.
As did earlier assertions by the anti-choicers that abortion leads to suicide, when post-partum depression is actually more prevalent than post-abortion depression.
They just weave their tales...
And aborting a pregnancy still carries less medical risk than carrying one to term. That's not, in and of itself, a reason to abort, obviously, but it remains a fact. Despite the fact that the fundies are now desperately trying to trumpet some mythical causative factor between abortion and breast cancer.
That bullshit assertion really pissed me off--about the abortion/breast cancer connection.
As did earlier assertions by the anti-choicers that abortion leads to suicide, when post-partum depression is actually more prevalent than post-abortion depression.
They just weave their tales...
SW, I understood entirely. Is there another way of having children? Aren't women the only ones who can have human babies? I didn't say that they are ONLY incubators.
You answer was based on the assumption they were.
It's either "women as incubators" or "women as sterilized".
It's a false dilema.
SW, I understood entirely. Is there another way of having children? Aren't women the only ones who can have human babies? I didn't say that they are ONLY incubators.
You answer was based on the assumption they were.
It's either "women as incubators" or "women as sterilized".
It's a false dilema.
The choice of whether to have a baby or not began at conception, no?
No.
Can we ignore this prick now?
The choice of whether to have a baby or not began at conception, no?
No.
Can we ignore this prick now?
Can't anyone look at this rationally?
A strange plea, coming from someone making an appeal to moral authority.
The nearest I can come to rationality on this issue is to ask what gives me the right to decide for someone else that life is better than death - or, on the other side of the coin, whether death is better than life.
The moral assertions usually underlying the argument that life is always better than death are silly on their face. Most of the people who rail against abortion rights clearly don't feel that way about murderers or Iraqis; some of them don't feel that way about the terminally ill or the braindead.
Yes, we make an exception for the very young. We make an exception for the very guilty. We make an exception for the gravely neurologically injured. We make an exception for innocent human beings whose only crime is living in the wrong country. Some states make an exception for the terminally ill, or for those who are tired of living.
To me, the question is whether we can comfortable and conscientiously accept responsibility for our moral decisions, not whether some mythical deity will be enraged by them.
Can't anyone look at this rationally?
A strange plea, coming from someone making an appeal to moral authority.
The nearest I can come to rationality on this issue is to ask what gives me the right to decide for someone else that life is better than death - or, on the other side of the coin, whether death is better than life.
The moral assertions usually underlying the argument that life is always better than death are silly on their face. Most of the people who rail against abortion rights clearly don't feel that way about murderers or Iraqis; some of them don't feel that way about the terminally ill or the braindead.
Yes, we make an exception for the very young. We make an exception for the very guilty. We make an exception for the gravely neurologically injured. We make an exception for innocent human beings whose only crime is living in the wrong country. Some states make an exception for the terminally ill, or for those who are tired of living.
To me, the question is whether we can comfortable and conscientiously accept responsibility for our moral decisions, not whether some mythical deity will be enraged by them.
eems all of you anti-choicers forget that pregnancy killed a lotta women back in the day. It still does. Even today, childbirth kills one in 10,000 women. Legal abortion: 1 in 100,000. Hm. Big difference.
I've personally known two women who died in childbirth. Things go wrong. Things that doctors cannot control.
Meet amniotic embolism, which took the life of one of my co-workers. This is when fecal matter crosses from amniotic fluid into the mother's blood stream. One in 30,000 pregnant women meet this little natural monster of an anomaly. Half of them die within the first hour. Of the half who do survive that, they usually die from complications of cardiopulmonary failure. Of that final percentage who pull through it all, many have brain damage or other complications that affect them the rest of their lives.
An amniotic embolism took my co-workerf from a husband and the three children she already had, plus the newborn daughter the doctors were able to save. Nothing could have saved the mother. NOTHING.
Having a child is a HUGE risk for any woman.
eems all of you anti-choicers forget that pregnancy killed a lotta women back in the day. It still does. Even today, childbirth kills one in 10,000 women. Legal abortion: 1 in 100,000. Hm. Big difference.
I've personally known two women who died in childbirth. Things go wrong. Things that doctors cannot control.
Meet amniotic embolism, which took the life of one of my co-workers. This is when fecal matter crosses from amniotic fluid into the mother's blood stream. One in 30,000 pregnant women meet this little natural monster of an anomaly. Half of them die within the first hour. Of the half who do survive that, they usually die from complications of cardiopulmonary failure. Of that final percentage who pull through it all, many have brain damage or other complications that affect them the rest of their lives.
An amniotic embolism took my co-workerf from a husband and the three children she already had, plus the newborn daughter the doctors were able to save. Nothing could have saved the mother. NOTHING.
Having a child is a HUGE risk for any woman.
GN -- if this issue was as clearcut as you assert there would not be such a huge divide on opinion and there would not be anybody like me who is uncomfortable with either absolutist point of view.
GN -- if this issue was as clearcut as you assert there would not be such a huge divide on opinion and there would not be anybody like me who is uncomfortable with either absolutist point of view.
steve simels, I take your point. Why haven't you shut the fuck up about it?
Special Ed | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 2:32 pm | #
Wow.
Guess he told me!
steve simels, I take your point. Why haven't you shut the fuck up about it?
Special Ed | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 2:32 pm | #
Wow.
Guess he told me!
The choice of whether to have a baby or not began at conception, no? After that, YOU'VE ALREADY MADE YOUR CHOICE. You just have to decide whether you want to honor the choice YOU made, or "abort" the one person who didn't have a say in the matter.
Special Ed
And so in response to my in vitro hypothetical, the couple which chose to fertilize several eggs to increase its chances of conception should be forced to implant each egg in the woman, and should not be allowed to request that any of the fertilized eggs be destroyed, even if they choose to abandon this difficult and low-yield procedure.
The choice of whether to have a baby or not began at conception, no? After that, YOU'VE ALREADY MADE YOUR CHOICE. You just have to decide whether you want to honor the choice YOU made, or "abort" the one person who didn't have a say in the matter.
Special Ed
And so in response to my in vitro hypothetical, the couple which chose to fertilize several eggs to increase its chances of conception should be forced to implant each egg in the woman, and should not be allowed to request that any of the fertilized eggs be destroyed, even if they choose to abandon this difficult and low-yield procedure.
SWR -- does that now mean we are not allowed to have any opinions on this?
TN | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 2:39 pm | #
When did I say that? I was just wondering why you were saying "how do you know I'm not a woman" instead of just being up front that you either were or weren't.
I have more respect for people who don't try to bullshit me.
SWR -- does that now mean we are not allowed to have any opinions on this?
TN | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 2:39 pm | #
When did I say that? I was just wondering why you were saying "how do you know I'm not a woman" instead of just being up front that you either were or weren't.
I have more respect for people who don't try to bullshit me.
The choice of whether to have a baby or not began at conception, no? After that, YOU'VE ALREADY MADE YOUR CHOICE. You just have to decide whether you want to honor the choice YOU made, or "abort" the one person who didn't have a say in the matter
Wrong. Sometimes, big surprise, even when you don't want to get pregnant, you do. Sometimes women get raped. Sometimes birth control fails. Sometimes, humans being human, they don't use birth control when they should. Sometimes a woman wants a baby but finds out that the father is leaving her or got killed in Iraq or that she has an opportunity that she never thought she'd have but that precludes the pregnancy.
And calling the product of conception a "person who didn't have a say" presumes the answer. I don't believe it's a person. If you do, then you can not have an abortion. What you don't get to do is CONTROL MY FUCKING BODY, ASSHOLE.
The choice of whether to have a baby or not began at conception, no? After that, YOU'VE ALREADY MADE YOUR CHOICE. You just have to decide whether you want to honor the choice YOU made, or "abort" the one person who didn't have a say in the matter
Wrong. Sometimes, big surprise, even when you don't want to get pregnant, you do. Sometimes women get raped. Sometimes birth control fails. Sometimes, humans being human, they don't use birth control when they should. Sometimes a woman wants a baby but finds out that the father is leaving her or got killed in Iraq or that she has an opportunity that she never thought she'd have but that precludes the pregnancy.
And calling the product of conception a "person who didn't have a say" presumes the answer. I don't believe it's a person. If you do, then you can not have an abortion. What you don't get to do is CONTROL MY FUCKING BODY, ASSHOLE.
The choice of whether to have a baby or not began at conception, no?
And the answer to that would be...
No.
The choice of whether to have a baby or not began at conception, no?
And the answer to that would be...
No.
Another challenge I would make to those anti-choicers who say that abortion should be illegal except in cases of rape or incest:
How, specifically, do you propose that we determine whether a given pregnancy is or is not the product of rape or incest?
Does the woman have to press charges? Does the man have to be convicted? This could take longer than the term of the pregnancy. Do we let her have an abortion, but then if the guy gets acquited, we throw her in jail? Do you see how unworkable this would be.
This shows how absurd it is to propose any restrictions whatsoever on abortion. If you are truly pro-choice, you have to support the right to choose in any and all situations. Support for abortion rights is an absolute position; there is not much room for compromise (only in reducing unwanted pregnancies?).
.
Another challenge I would make to those anti-choicers who say that abortion should be illegal except in cases of rape or incest:
How, specifically, do you propose that we determine whether a given pregnancy is or is not the product of rape or incest?
Does the woman have to press charges? Does the man have to be convicted? This could take longer than the term of the pregnancy. Do we let her have an abortion, but then if the guy gets acquited, we throw her in jail? Do you see how unworkable this would be.
This shows how absurd it is to propose any restrictions whatsoever on abortion. If you are truly pro-choice, you have to support the right to choose in any and all situations. Support for abortion rights is an absolute position; there is not much room for compromise (only in reducing unwanted pregnancies?).
.
So now you see my point...... and sorry if feel bullshitted but this is not "gotcha."
So now you see my point...... and sorry if feel bullshitted but this is not "gotcha."
The choice of whether to have a baby or not began at conception, no? After that, YOU'VE ALREADY MADE YOUR CHOICE.
Oh, bull and SHIT. I make my choice by practicing contraception. IT FAILS.I then deal with the consequences as I see fit. Even the Pill is only 99% effective (that's one woman out of one hundred using it perfectly who WILL get pregnant), and the pill (a) can't be used by everyone and (b) is the most effective method we've got aside from permanent sterilization, which really isn't the ideal solution for a 19-year-old.
The choice of whether to have a baby or not began at conception, no? After that, YOU'VE ALREADY MADE YOUR CHOICE.
Oh, bull and SHIT. I make my choice by practicing contraception. IT FAILS.I then deal with the consequences as I see fit. Even the Pill is only 99% effective (that's one woman out of one hundred using it perfectly who WILL get pregnant), and the pill (a) can't be used by everyone and (b) is the most effective method we've got aside from permanent sterilization, which really isn't the ideal solution for a 19-year-old.
The choice of whether to have a baby or not began at conception, no?
Oh goody, the women having sex is icky argument! If you don't want to get pregnant then don't DO THAT, you filthy icky whores.
Go ahead. Say it. You know you want to.
Wow. Guess he told me!
Maybe you can strike back with, "I know you are, but what am I?"
Sounds like the right level... 
The choice of whether to have a baby or not began at conception, no?
Oh goody, the women having sex is icky argument! If you don't want to get pregnant then don't DO THAT, you filthy icky whores.
Go ahead. Say it. You know you want to.
Wow. Guess he told me!
Maybe you can strike back with, "I know you are, but what am I?"
Sounds like the right level...
If it becomes inconvenient for me to have my brother around as an invalid, can I "abort" him?
No.
And I'd be watching W's plans for Social Security pretty carefully if I were you.
If it becomes inconvenient for me to have my brother around as an invalid, can I "abort" him?
No.
And I'd be watching W's plans for Social Security pretty carefully if I were you.
So now you see my point...... and sorry if feel bullshitted but this is not "gotcha."
So now you see my point...... and sorry if feel bullshitted but this is not "gotcha."
GN -- if this issue was as clearcut as you assert there would not be such a huge divide on opinion and there would not be anybody like me who is uncomfortable with either absolutist point of view.
TN
It's unclear what relevance the controversy of this issue has on your position. I'm merely asking you to defend your view which places moral significance on the destruction of a fertilized egg in a womb, yet places no such moral significance on the exact same action if the fertilized egg resides in a petri dish. To me, this makes little sense. The fact that others might share your view doesn't make it more sensible.
GN -- if this issue was as clearcut as you assert there would not be such a huge divide on opinion and there would not be anybody like me who is uncomfortable with either absolutist point of view.
TN
It's unclear what relevance the controversy of this issue has on your position. I'm merely asking you to defend your view which places moral significance on the destruction of a fertilized egg in a womb, yet places no such moral significance on the exact same action if the fertilized egg resides in a petri dish. To me, this makes little sense. The fact that others might share your view doesn't make it more sensible.
If you don't want to get pregnant then don't DO THAT, you filthy icky whores.
Bingo!
If you don't want to get pregnant then don't DO THAT, you filthy icky whores.
Bingo!
So now you see my point...... and sorry if feel bullshitted but this is not "gotcha."
TN | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 2:44 pm | #
No. I don't see any point at all.
I just see someone who's afraid to be upfront about who he is and what he thinks.
So now you see my point...... and sorry if feel bullshitted but this is not "gotcha."
TN | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 2:44 pm | #
No. I don't see any point at all.
I just see someone who's afraid to be upfront about who he is and what he thinks.
Another challenge I would make to those anti-choicers who say that abortion should be illegal except in cases of rape or incest:
How, specifically, do you propose that we determine whether a given pregnancy is or is not the product of rape or incest?
Does the woman have to press charges? Does the man have to be convicted? This could take longer than the term of the pregnancy. Do we let her have an abortion, but then if the guy gets acquited, we throw her in jail? Do you see how unworkable this would be.
This shows how absurd it is to propose any restrictions whatsoever on abortion. If you are truly pro-choice, you have to support the right to choose in any and all situations. Support for abortion rights is an absolute position; there is not much room for compromise (only in reducing unwanted pregnancies?).
That, actually, is a brilliant tactic for fighting the right-wing encroachment on abortion rights.
I suggest we also begin insisting on mandatory genital inspection whenever anyone applies for a marriage license. Can't have no same sex marriages, now, can we?
Another challenge I would make to those anti-choicers who say that abortion should be illegal except in cases of rape or incest:
How, specifically, do you propose that we determine whether a given pregnancy is or is not the product of rape or incest?
Does the woman have to press charges? Does the man have to be convicted? This could take longer than the term of the pregnancy. Do we let her have an abortion, but then if the guy gets acquited, we throw her in jail? Do you see how unworkable this would be.
This shows how absurd it is to propose any restrictions whatsoever on abortion. If you are truly pro-choice, you have to support the right to choose in any and all situations. Support for abortion rights is an absolute position; there is not much room for compromise (only in reducing unwanted pregnancies?).
That, actually, is a brilliant tactic for fighting the right-wing encroachment on abortion rights.
I suggest we also begin insisting on mandatory genital inspection whenever anyone applies for a marriage license. Can't have no same sex marriages, now, can we?
Cat fight?
Methinks a verbal ass-stompin'.
Not that Tena alone wouldn't hold her own, because she can in any conversation, but it may be interesting to see her tag-team with Hecate.
Cat fight?
Methinks a verbal ass-stompin'.
Not that Tena alone wouldn't hold her own, because she can in any conversation, but it may be interesting to see her tag-team with Hecate.
The choice of whether to have a baby or not began at conception, no?
No.
Can we ignore this prick now?
dave | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 2:41 pm | #
When then?
Hecate, I am not opposed to legal abortions. How many abortions are performed in this country each year? How many of those pregnancies were a result of an unwanted sexual encounter? Unless they are the same number, this:
Sometimes, big surprise, even when you don't want to get pregnant, you do. Sometimes women get raped. Sometimes birth control fails. Sometimes, humans being human, they don't use birth control when they should. Sometimes a woman wants a baby but finds out that the father is leaving her or got killed in Iraq or that she has an opportunity that she never thought she'd have but that precludes the pregnancy.
doesn't answer my position that your decision to have a baby began at conception. No sperm/embryo implantation, no pregnancy.
The choice of whether to have a baby or not began at conception, no?
No.
Can we ignore this prick now?
dave | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 2:41 pm | #
When then?
Hecate, I am not opposed to legal abortions. How many abortions are performed in this country each year? How many of those pregnancies were a result of an unwanted sexual encounter? Unless they are the same number, this:
Sometimes, big surprise, even when you don't want to get pregnant, you do. Sometimes women get raped. Sometimes birth control fails. Sometimes, humans being human, they don't use birth control when they should. Sometimes a woman wants a baby but finds out that the father is leaving her or got killed in Iraq or that she has an opportunity that she never thought she'd have but that precludes the pregnancy.
doesn't answer my position that your decision to have a baby began at conception. No sperm/embryo implantation, no pregnancy.
That, actually, is a brilliant tactic for fighting the right-wing encroachment on abortion rights.
Especially because it automatically puts us on the side of the 90% or whatever of the public who believes that abortion should be available in cases of pregnancy resulting from rape.
We should make it clear that the "pro-life" movement and the "no abortions even for 12-year-olds raped by their fathers" movement are one and the same.
This would immediately make the "pro-life" position much, much less attractive.
.
That, actually, is a brilliant tactic for fighting the right-wing encroachment on abortion rights.
Especially because it automatically puts us on the side of the 90% or whatever of the public who believes that abortion should be available in cases of pregnancy resulting from rape.
We should make it clear that the "pro-life" movement and the "no abortions even for 12-year-olds raped by their fathers" movement are one and the same.
This would immediately make the "pro-life" position much, much less attractive.
.
This is an online forum. Who we "are" is irrelevant.
This is an online forum. Who we "are" is irrelevant.
I must run out to pick up a prescription (gee, it's NOT for birth control), but have no doubt THIS thread, too, will go on for days.
This is the thread that doesn't end
And it goes on and on, my friend
Some people -- started commenting, not knowing what it was
And they'll continue commenting forever, just because
This is the thread that doesn't end...
I must run out to pick up a prescription (gee, it's NOT for birth control), but have no doubt THIS thread, too, will go on for days.
This is the thread that doesn't end
And it goes on and on, my friend
Some people -- started commenting, not knowing what it was
And they'll continue commenting forever, just because
This is the thread that doesn't end...
TN:
Once again, with all due respect...
your moral qualms about abortion
put you in bed (sorry) with the
republicans.
If you're happy with that, you
probably shouldn't be here.
TN:
Once again, with all due respect...
your moral qualms about abortion
put you in bed (sorry) with the
republicans.
If you're happy with that, you
probably shouldn't be here.
doesn't answer my position that your decision to have a baby began at conception. No sperm/embryo implantation, no pregnancy.
Yes, it does answer your position.
doesn't answer my position that your decision to have a baby began at conception. No sperm/embryo implantation, no pregnancy.
Yes, it does answer your position.
Why haven't you shut the fuck up about it?
probably because you're a remarkably dense asshole.
although of course I can't speak for him.
Why haven't you shut the fuck up about it?
probably because you're a remarkably dense asshole.
although of course I can't speak for him.
if this issue was as clearcut as you assert there would not be such a huge divide on opinion
I lived during a time when there was a huge divide in opinion concerning whether or not African American children should go to school with white children. I lived during a time when there was a huge divide in opinon concerning whether women should be allowed to work and should receive the same benefits as men. My grandmother lived during a time when there was a huge divide in opinion concerning whether women should be allowed to vote. She lived during a time when there was a huge divide in opinion concerning whether couples should be allowed to use birth control. My great, great grandmother lived during a time when there was a huge divide in opinon concnerning whether or not whites should be allowed to keep African Americans as slaves. She lived during a time when there was a huge divide in opinion concerning whether or not doctors should use pain-killing medication on women who were giving birth given the bible's injunction that women should bear their children in pain.
All of those issues were, in fact, clear-cut. The fact that there was controversy surrounding them didn't mean that there was actually another valid side to the question of whether or not, for example, women should be allowed to vote.
if this issue was as clearcut as you assert there would not be such a huge divide on opinion
I lived during a time when there was a huge divide in opinion concerning whether or not African American children should go to school with white children. I lived during a time when there was a huge divide in opinon concerning whether women should be allowed to work and should receive the same benefits as men. My grandmother lived during a time when there was a huge divide in opinion concerning whether women should be allowed to vote. She lived during a time when there was a huge divide in opinion concerning whether couples should be allowed to use birth control. My great, great grandmother lived during a time when there was a huge divide in opinon concnerning whether or not whites should be allowed to keep African Americans as slaves. She lived during a time when there was a huge divide in opinion concerning whether or not doctors should use pain-killing medication on women who were giving birth given the bible's injunction that women should bear their children in pain.
All of those issues were, in fact, clear-cut. The fact that there was controversy surrounding them didn't mean that there was actually another valid side to the question of whether or not, for example, women should be allowed to vote.
Especially because it automatically puts us on the side of the 90% or whatever of the public who believes that abortion should be available in cases of pregnancy resulting from rape.
We should make it clear that the "pro-life" movement and the "no abortions even for 12-year-olds raped by their fathers" movement are one and the same.
This would immediately make the "pro-life" position much, much less attractive.
Call me evil but I honestly think we should spread two memes:
1.) White women have fewere abortions than black woman.
2.) Gays don't want to get married or live in monogmous relationships. They're too busy have promiscuous sex.
Meme 1 will lead to the anti-choice movement losing half its members.
Meme 2 will lead to a large percentage of Amerkens saying "godddamned those fags. We outa make them settle down and get married just like anybody else".
Especially because it automatically puts us on the side of the 90% or whatever of the public who believes that abortion should be available in cases of pregnancy resulting from rape.
We should make it clear that the "pro-life" movement and the "no abortions even for 12-year-olds raped by their fathers" movement are one and the same.
This would immediately make the "pro-life" position much, much less attractive.
Call me evil but I honestly think we should spread two memes:
1.) White women have fewere abortions than black woman.
2.) Gays don't want to get married or live in monogmous relationships. They're too busy have promiscuous sex.
Meme 1 will lead to the anti-choice movement losing half its members.
Meme 2 will lead to a large percentage of Amerkens saying "godddamned those fags. We outa make them settle down and get married just like anybody else".
Who we "are" is irrelevant.
That is among the most inane statements I've seen in a while.
Who we "are" is irrelevant.
That is among the most inane statements I've seen in a while.
doesn't answer my position that your decision to have a baby began at conception. No sperm/embryo implantation, no pregnancy.
Special Ed
But "at conception" an egg becomes fertilized. An egg can also be fertilized in a petri dish. Why is it morally acceptable for the egg in the petri dish to be destroyed, while it is unacceptable for the egg in the womb to be destroyed? This makes no sense, unless the real issue is (1) punative ("you made your choice by spreading your legs, slut live with it"); or (2) that women should not have the right to control their reproduction. If this was about the fertilized egg, then you would hold that couples using in vitro procedures must implant each fertilized egg, or are murderers if they choose to abandon the procedure and destroy any fertilized eggs.
doesn't answer my position that your decision to have a baby began at conception. No sperm/embryo implantation, no pregnancy.
Special Ed
But "at conception" an egg becomes fertilized. An egg can also be fertilized in a petri dish. Why is it morally acceptable for the egg in the petri dish to be destroyed, while it is unacceptable for the egg in the womb to be destroyed? This makes no sense, unless the real issue is (1) punative ("you made your choice by spreading your legs, slut live with it"); or (2) that women should not have the right to control their reproduction. If this was about the fertilized egg, then you would hold that couples using in vitro procedures must implant each fertilized egg, or are murderers if they choose to abandon the procedure and destroy any fertilized eggs.
This is an online forum. Who we "are" is irrelevant.
TN | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 2:50 pm | #
You're the one who brought it up. "Who do you know I'm not a woman".
You were trying to hint that perhaps you were and thus had some right to speak from experience.
So if you don't think it matters, don't bring it up.
I was only calling you on your dishonest rhetoric.
This is an online forum. Who we "are" is irrelevant.
TN | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 2:50 pm | #
You're the one who brought it up. "Who do you know I'm not a woman".
You were trying to hint that perhaps you were and thus had some right to speak from experience.
So if you don't think it matters, don't bring it up.
I was only calling you on your dishonest rhetoric.
Call me evil but I honestly think we should spread two memes:
1.) White women have fewere abortions than black woman.
2.) Gays don't want to get married or live in monogmous relationships. They're too busy have promiscuous sex.
Meme 1 will lead to the anti-choice movement losing half its members.
Meme 2 will lead to a large percentage of Amerkens saying "godddamned those fags. We outa make them settle down and get married just like anybody else".
SWR
No, and no.
Call me evil but I honestly think we should spread two memes:
1.) White women have fewere abortions than black woman.
2.) Gays don't want to get married or live in monogmous relationships. They're too busy have promiscuous sex.
Meme 1 will lead to the anti-choice movement losing half its members.
Meme 2 will lead to a large percentage of Amerkens saying "godddamned those fags. We outa make them settle down and get married just like anybody else".
SWR
No, and no.
The fact that there was controversy surrounding them didn't mean that there was actually another valid side to the question
The great Bertrand Russell:
"The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence that it is not utterly absurd; indeed, in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more often likely to be foolish than sensible."
/
The fact that there was controversy surrounding them didn't mean that there was actually another valid side to the question
The great Bertrand Russell:
"The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence that it is not utterly absurd; indeed, in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more often likely to be foolish than sensible."
/
Theodoric:
Bless you for defending my honor!
Theodoric:
Bless you for defending my honor!
Special Ed,
It doesn't matter if I have abortions because I enjoy them. It's MY FUCKING BODY and you don't get to decide what I do with MY FUCKING BODY.
Now, no one that I know enjoys abortions, but the reason for the aboriton is irrelevant. You don't get to control MY FUCKING BODY when I have unprotected sex but allow me to control MY FUCKING BODY if the condom breaks. That's because it's MY FUCKING BODY.
Asshole.
Special Ed,
It doesn't matter if I have abortions because I enjoy them. It's MY FUCKING BODY and you don't get to decide what I do with MY FUCKING BODY.
Now, no one that I know enjoys abortions, but the reason for the aboriton is irrelevant. You don't get to control MY FUCKING BODY when I have unprotected sex but allow me to control MY FUCKING BODY if the condom breaks. That's because it's MY FUCKING BODY.
Asshole.
Ooh, forgive me, but this is another great quote from Russell:
"The total amount of undesired sex endured by women is probably greater in marriage than in prostitution. "
Ooh, forgive me, but this is another great quote from Russell:
"The total amount of undesired sex endured by women is probably greater in marriage than in prostitution. "
Hecate -- I agree with that there is not always an "on the other handism" for all of these issues. I guess I still think there is something wrong with abortion.
People are free to make that choice about abortion and I will not stop them.
Simels -- I just see some torturous logic used by both sides at the extremes of their viewpoints. I don't profess to know it all. And I could say anyone who buys things at Walmart or has some shares in Halliburton in a pension fund somewhere is a GOP tool, too.
Hecate -- I agree with that there is not always an "on the other handism" for all of these issues. I guess I still think there is something wrong with abortion.
People are free to make that choice about abortion and I will not stop them.
Simels -- I just see some torturous logic used by both sides at the extremes of their viewpoints. I don't profess to know it all. And I could say anyone who buys things at Walmart or has some shares in Halliburton in a pension fund somewhere is a GOP tool, too.
(Just to clarify, because I know Special Ed is kinda slow, but the point is that it's not YOUR FUCKING BODY.)
(Just to clarify, because I know Special Ed is kinda slow, but the point is that it's not YOUR FUCKING BODY.)
This is an online forum. Who we "are" is irrelevant.
au contraire.
you could, for example, be a person who can justify his/her position and cite personal experience to back it up.
but you're not.
This is an online forum. Who we "are" is irrelevant.
au contraire.
you could, for example, be a person who can justify his/her position and cite personal experience to back it up.
but you're not.
BTW:
The thing to understand about
Special Ed is that he/she is a liar.
He/she claims to think abortion is
wrong but supports it anyway.
Yeah, right. And someday trained
sheep will pilot the Concorde.
BTW:
The thing to understand about
Special Ed is that he/she is a liar.
He/she claims to think abortion is
wrong but supports it anyway.
Yeah, right. And someday trained
sheep will pilot the Concorde.
SWR, now you are being a prick. Have a good day feeling good about your impeccable logic and values and ethics. I am sorry I am not as perfect as you.
SWR, now you are being a prick. Have a good day feeling good about your impeccable logic and values and ethics. I am sorry I am not as perfect as you.
"you could, for example, be a person who can justify his/her position and cite personal experience to back it up."
You could -- but why or how should I believe anything written here about individuals and their experience unless I know them personally?
"you could, for example, be a person who can justify his/her position and cite personal experience to back it up."
You could -- but why or how should I believe anything written here about individuals and their experience unless I know them personally?
TN--That's a pretty sorry response.
TN--That's a pretty sorry response.
Grey:
Great quote from Russell--and spot on.
People have believed a lot of freaky crap and got divided over it for some really dumb reasons.
We had this weird insanity of thinking that people would stop drinking booze if we just took it away. Boy, that was real smart, wasn't it?
Grey:
Great quote from Russell--and spot on.
People have believed a lot of freaky crap and got divided over it for some really dumb reasons.
We had this weird insanity of thinking that people would stop drinking booze if we just took it away. Boy, that was real smart, wasn't it?
Meme 1 and meme 2. Gulp. I think I understood that. It could be presented as a childrens' story too.
As a for-choice-over-my-own-body- lesbian, I was terrified reading it...but it made sense after I thought about how Republicans would respond.
Meme 1 and meme 2. Gulp. I think I understood that. It could be presented as a childrens' story too.
As a for-choice-over-my-own-body- lesbian, I was terrified reading it...but it made sense after I thought about how Republicans would respond.
I'm going to have to do this again. All of you have are touting adoption as such a golden solution to this problem do not know what you are talking about.
Ok?
It is not that easy. It is a terribly sad and regretful thing when someone ends a pregnancy, but, most women go on from there.
Women who give their children up for adoption never ever get over it - for the most part. It is a terribly cruel thing to do to a girl, in particular, to make her carry a baby, deliver it, and walk away from it.
Don't argue with me - I happen to know just exactly how much life long pain is involved.
I'm going to have to do this again. All of you have are touting adoption as such a golden solution to this problem do not know what you are talking about.
Ok?
It is not that easy. It is a terribly sad and regretful thing when someone ends a pregnancy, but, most women go on from there.
Women who give their children up for adoption never ever get over it - for the most part. It is a terribly cruel thing to do to a girl, in particular, to make her carry a baby, deliver it, and walk away from it.
Don't argue with me - I happen to know just exactly how much life long pain is involved.
GN, I have already stated that I am in favor of legalized abortion. I agree that it is legal to destroy the in vitro embryos.
theodoric, not that either of us asked you, but steve stated that he is gay and is not going to adopt, and that a woman's reproductive system is no one's business but her own,
" Je repete -- its none of your goddamn
business."
So I merely applied his own advice to him.
GN, I have already stated that I am in favor of legalized abortion. I agree that it is legal to destroy the in vitro embryos.
theodoric, not that either of us asked you, but steve stated that he is gay and is not going to adopt, and that a woman's reproductive system is no one's business but her own,
" Je repete -- its none of your goddamn
business."
So I merely applied his own advice to him.
rorschach -- et.al. Calling it sorry does not make it so except to you. I am now calling you a prick as well. Good day.
rorschach -- et.al. Calling it sorry does not make it so except to you. I am now calling you a prick as well. Good day.
You could -- but why or how should I believe anything written here about individuals and their experience unless I know them personally?
TN
I'm still waiting for a coherent answer to this, either from you or Special Ed: why aren't couples who might abandon an in vitro procedure and request that fertilized eggs be destroyed considered as murderous as a woman who requests that a fertilized egg in her womb be destroyed? Why is the in vitro couple allowed control of their reproduction that the woman is not in the anti-choice logic?
You could -- but why or how should I believe anything written here about individuals and their experience unless I know them personally?
TN
I'm still waiting for a coherent answer to this, either from you or Special Ed: why aren't couples who might abandon an in vitro procedure and request that fertilized eggs be destroyed considered as murderous as a woman who requests that a fertilized egg in her womb be destroyed? Why is the in vitro couple allowed control of their reproduction that the woman is not in the anti-choice logic?
"all of you who have been touting adoption..."
"all of you who have been touting adoption..."
"The total amount of undesired sex endured by women is probably greater in marriage than in prostitution. "
Grey:
Honey, that's what the mail man is for.
"The total amount of undesired sex endured by women is probably greater in marriage than in prostitution. "
Grey:
Honey, that's what the mail man is for.
Ooh, ooh, I've got another cool one:
"One should respect public opinion in so far as it is necessary to avoid starvation and keep out of prison, but anything that goes beyond this is voluntary submission to an unnecessary tyranny. "
(So, so sorry.)
Ooh, ooh, I've got another cool one:
"One should respect public opinion in so far as it is necessary to avoid starvation and keep out of prison, but anything that goes beyond this is voluntary submission to an unnecessary tyranny. "
(So, so sorry.)
People have believed a lot of freaky crap and got divided over it for some really dumb reasons.
Have you ever read some of Henry Cabot Lodge's writings on Southern and Eastern Europeans?
It's amazing how mainstream racism was in the ninetheenth century. Lodge was the first person to get a PHD in Political Science from Harvard. He was a distiguished Republican Senator.
And yet he believe that Americans of East and Southern European dissent were racially inferior and unassimilable.
People have believed a lot of freaky crap and got divided over it for some really dumb reasons.
Have you ever read some of Henry Cabot Lodge's writings on Southern and Eastern Europeans?
It's amazing how mainstream racism was in the ninetheenth century. Lodge was the first person to get a PHD in Political Science from Harvard. He was a distiguished Republican Senator.
And yet he believe that Americans of East and Southern European dissent were racially inferior and unassimilable.
Oh, my humble apologies, but this one is just too good:
"Our great democracies still tend to think that a stupid man is more likely to be honest than a clever man, and our politicians take advantage of this prejudice by pretending to be even more stupid than nature made them. "
.
Oh, my humble apologies, but this one is just too good:
"Our great democracies still tend to think that a stupid man is more likely to be honest than a clever man, and our politicians take advantage of this prejudice by pretending to be even more stupid than nature made them. "
.
Hecate, i really like you, i enjoy reading your comments and your posts on the front page, but this isn't an argument about abortion, we're both on the same side of the issue in principal, in that we're pro-choice. i'm only arguing against an attitude that i feel is counterproductive, not only to the issue at hand, but to the democratic party in general. maybe i'm wrong, and that's fine, but my views in this thread are genuine and they're shared by a large number of pro-choice people.
we just lost to george fucking bush. think about that for a second. it's my opinion that one of the reasons we lost is because of people like you, Hecate. >NOT< your views, your principles or your positions, but your smug fucking elitist (yeah, i said it) attitude. i'm probably one of the more liberal guys you would ever meet. i'm pro-choice, against the death penalty, against bush's tax cuts, i support gay marriage, and i've marched against the war in iraq. so i'm not an "on the fence" democrat. what i am is one of many people who are so fucking sick of.....the smugness (on both sides.) your reply to me, i liked it, it was passionate and funny, but really, fuck you.
Hecate, i really like you, i enjoy reading your comments and your posts on the front page, but this isn't an argument about abortion, we're both on the same side of the issue in principal, in that we're pro-choice. i'm only arguing against an attitude that i feel is counterproductive, not only to the issue at hand, but to the democratic party in general. maybe i'm wrong, and that's fine, but my views in this thread are genuine and they're shared by a large number of pro-choice people.
we just lost to george fucking bush. think about that for a second. it's my opinion that one of the reasons we lost is because of people like you, Hecate. >NOT< your views, your principles or your positions, but your smug fucking elitist (yeah, i said it) attitude. i'm probably one of the more liberal guys you would ever meet. i'm pro-choice, against the death penalty, against bush's tax cuts, i support gay marriage, and i've marched against the war in iraq. so i'm not an "on the fence" democrat. what i am is one of many people who are so fucking sick of.....the smugness (on both sides.) your reply to me, i liked it, it was passionate and funny, but really, fuck you.
The thing to understand about
Special Ed is that he/she is a liar.
He/she claims to think abortion is
wrong but supports it anyway.
It's called a "moral dilemma".
The thing to understand about
Special Ed is that he/she is a liar.
He/she claims to think abortion is
wrong but supports it anyway.
It's called a "moral dilemma".
GN, I have already stated that I am in favor of legalized abortion. I agree that it is legal to destroy the in vitro embryos.
I didn't ask if either scenario was legal or not; I asked if both scenarios had equal moral implications. Do they? Is it morally wrong to request that a fertilized egg in a petri dish be destroyed?
GN, I have already stated that I am in favor of legalized abortion. I agree that it is legal to destroy the in vitro embryos.
I didn't ask if either scenario was legal or not; I asked if both scenarios had equal moral implications. Do they? Is it morally wrong to request that a fertilized egg in a petri dish be destroyed?
rorschach -- et.al. Calling it sorry does not make it so except to you. I am now calling you a prick as well.
Well, TN sure told us.
But, by its own logic.... Calling abortion wrong or icky does not make it so EXCEPT TO YOU.
Welcome to Eschaton.
rorschach -- et.al. Calling it sorry does not make it so except to you. I am now calling you a prick as well.
Well, TN sure told us.
But, by its own logic.... Calling abortion wrong or icky does not make it so EXCEPT TO YOU.
Welcome to Eschaton.
Simels -- And I could say anyone who buys
things at Walmart or has some shares in Halliburton in a pension fund
somewhere is a GOP tool, too.
TN | Email | Homepage
And given everything we now know,
you would be right.
Simels -- And I could say anyone who buys
things at Walmart or has some shares in Halliburton in a pension fund
somewhere is a GOP tool, too.
TN | Email | Homepage
And given everything we now know,
you would be right.
You see, you do not like what I have to say about abortion, even if I did not say it should be illegal. However, you have been willing to debate other issues without it being personal and mean about it. I have been coming here as TN for a while, I will no longer. Because I will have anything I say dismissed as irreelvant because 1) I am TN and because I am not 2) a star debating club medal winner and typist and 3) I showed doubt about the absolute rightness of abortion. Everyone has their faults. I will however forget about this, including the assholery of some of the regulars, and come back as someone else. You will gladly engage me once again and I forgive all trespasses. Good day.
You see, you do not like what I have to say about abortion, even if I did not say it should be illegal. However, you have been willing to debate other issues without it being personal and mean about it. I have been coming here as TN for a while, I will no longer. Because I will have anything I say dismissed as irreelvant because 1) I am TN and because I am not 2) a star debating club medal winner and typist and 3) I showed doubt about the absolute rightness of abortion. Everyone has their faults. I will however forget about this, including the assholery of some of the regulars, and come back as someone else. You will gladly engage me once again and I forgive all trespasses. Good day.
TN said:
Women are not casual about this, it is not an easy decision to make, but there should also be no shame about having an abortion?
What is it to be?
And please do not presume I am either 1) a man or 2) don't know anyone who has had an abortion or 3) have not had one or been pregnant myself.
And then:
This is an online forum. Who we "are" is irrelevant.
Well, TN, I think you are the asshole (insult gender-neutral on purpose).
TN said:
Women are not casual about this, it is not an easy decision to make, but there should also be no shame about having an abortion?
What is it to be?
And please do not presume I am either 1) a man or 2) don't know anyone who has had an abortion or 3) have not had one or been pregnant myself.
And then:
This is an online forum. Who we "are" is irrelevant.
Well, TN, I think you are the asshole (insult gender-neutral on purpose).
we just lost to george fucking bush. think about that for a second. it's my opinion that one of the reasons we lost is because of people like you, Hecate. >NOT< your views, your principles or your positions, but your smug fucking elitist (yeah, i said it) attitude. i'm probably one of the more liberal guys you would ever meet. i'm pro-choice, against the death penalty, against bush's tax cuts, i support gay marriage, and i've marched against the war in iraq. so i'm not an "on the fence" democrat. what i am is one of many people who are so fucking sick of.....the smugness (on both sides.) your reply to me, i liked it, it was passionate and funny, but really, fuck you.
Do you actually vote based on whether or not you think "the elite" likes you personally?
That's kind of a silly thing to base a vote on. I doubt I'd be invited to Michael Moore's apartment on the Upper West Side or Springsteen's house in Rumson. But guess what?
I don't care. They support positions I agree with. I sit down. I weight two candidates and I make my decision. Worrying about people you may not like voting for the same guy just seems, well, retarded.
we just lost to george fucking bush. think about that for a second. it's my opinion that one of the reasons we lost is because of people like you, Hecate. >NOT< your views, your principles or your positions, but your smug fucking elitist (yeah, i said it) attitude. i'm probably one of the more liberal guys you would ever meet. i'm pro-choice, against the death penalty, against bush's tax cuts, i support gay marriage, and i've marched against the war in iraq. so i'm not an "on the fence" democrat. what i am is one of many people who are so fucking sick of.....the smugness (on both sides.) your reply to me, i liked it, it was passionate and funny, but really, fuck you.
Do you actually vote based on whether or not you think "the elite" likes you personally?
That's kind of a silly thing to base a vote on. I doubt I'd be invited to Michael Moore's apartment on the Upper West Side or Springsteen's house in Rumson. But guess what?
I don't care. They support positions I agree with. I sit down. I weight two candidates and I make my decision. Worrying about people you may not like voting for the same guy just seems, well, retarded.
GN, oh. Yes, they are both morally reprehesible.
GN, oh. Yes, they are both morally reprehesible.
Special Ed wouldn't know a moral
dilemma if it bit him on the tush.
Special Ed wouldn't know a moral
dilemma if it bit him on the tush.
That's "reprehe
That's "reprehe
are we talking viability outside the womb without medical aid? or with? because if the latter we're on the slippery slope to no choice as medical science advances.
are we talking viability outside the womb without medical aid? or with? because if the latter we're on the slippery slope to no choice as medical science advances.
Damned Haloscan!
Damned Haloscan!
Hecate - Now, no one that I know enjoys abortions, but the reason for the aboriton is irrelevant. You don't get to control MY FUCKING BODY when I have unprotected sex but allow me to control MY FUCKING BODY if the condom breaks. That's because it's MY FUCKING BODY
I love you. I just love you. Because this is the entire argument right here. End of story.
It is MY FUCKING BODY! It is none of your fucking business what any woman does with her own goddamned body.
Men don't have to put up with idjits and assholes trying to control their most intimate physical functions. Women are not going back to that - you hear me? WE ARE NOT GOING TO LET YOU DICTATE TO US WHAT WE DO WITH THE INSIDES OF OUR BODIES.
Hecate - Now, no one that I know enjoys abortions, but the reason for the aboriton is irrelevant. You don't get to control MY FUCKING BODY when I have unprotected sex but allow me to control MY FUCKING BODY if the condom breaks. That's because it's MY FUCKING BODY
I love you. I just love you. Because this is the entire argument right here. End of story.
It is MY FUCKING BODY! It is none of your fucking business what any woman does with her own goddamned body.
Men don't have to put up with idjits and assholes trying to control their most intimate physical functions. Women are not going back to that - you hear me? WE ARE NOT GOING TO LET YOU DICTATE TO US WHAT WE DO WITH THE INSIDES OF OUR BODIES.
You see, you do not like what I have to say about abortion, even if I did not say it should be illegal. However, you have been willing to debate other issues without it being personal and mean about it.
I don't understand what you have to say about abortion. I don't get the artificial distinction you've drawn between this medical procedure and other, analogous medical procedures. I think that perhaps you don't understand your position, either, and rather than conceding the basic flaws (and assumptions) in your stance, you're becoming angry and upset. If you can't handle having your views questioned and corrected, then why post them?
You see, you do not like what I have to say about abortion, even if I did not say it should be illegal. However, you have been willing to debate other issues without it being personal and mean about it.
I don't understand what you have to say about abortion. I don't get the artificial distinction you've drawn between this medical procedure and other, analogous medical procedures. I think that perhaps you don't understand your position, either, and rather than conceding the basic flaws (and assumptions) in your stance, you're becoming angry and upset. If you can't handle having your views questioned and corrected, then why post them?
"The choice of whether to have a baby or not began at conception, no?"
No.
"When then?"
Tell you what - I'll decide and you have to abide by my decision whether you like it or not. Failure to do so will result in your arrest.
Oh, you don't like those rules? Dearie, dearie me...
"The choice of whether to have a baby or not began at conception, no?"
No.
"When then?"
Tell you what - I'll decide and you have to abide by my decision whether you like it or not. Failure to do so will result in your arrest.
Oh, you don't like those rules? Dearie, dearie me...
Men don't have to put up with idjits and assholes trying to control their most intimate physical functions.
Actually we do. Think about anti-sodomy laws or laws against smoking marijuana.
Men don't have to put up with idjits and assholes trying to control their most intimate physical functions.
Actually we do. Think about anti-sodomy laws or laws against smoking marijuana.
Heck, it's been a few days now and I'm still waiting for answers to my questions...
Heck, it's been a few days now and I'm still waiting for answers to my questions...
Men don't have to put up with idjits and assholes trying to control their most intimate physical functions. Women are not going back to that - you hear me? WE ARE NOT GOING TO LET YOU DICTATE TO US WHAT WE DO WITH THE INSIDES OF OUR BODIES.
Tena
I am sick and tired, personally, of having so many laws passed about what I can do with my bollocks.
It's time for the Boston TeaBagging Party!!
Men don't have to put up with idjits and assholes trying to control their most intimate physical functions. Women are not going back to that - you hear me? WE ARE NOT GOING TO LET YOU DICTATE TO US WHAT WE DO WITH THE INSIDES OF OUR BODIES.
Tena
I am sick and tired, personally, of having so many laws passed about what I can do with my bollocks.
It's time for the Boston TeaBagging Party!!
"Women who give their children up for adoption never ever get over it - for the most part. It is a terribly cruel thing to do to a girl, in particular, to make her carry a baby, deliver it, and walk away from it."
I would have to agree here, and that's based on personal experience. I vote pro-choice, but when I had to make that choice...I chose to carry my pregnancy to term based on some pressures around me. I was in foster care.
In the second trimester, it was found that my child had a serious birth defect. No one was helping me with the decision to abort, but people connected to adoption agencies were encouraging me to carry the child. It wasn't hard, because I knew that an abortion was going to be a tough decision, and secretly, I felt I deserved to be punished.
My daughter was born and spent the first two months of her life going through 4 serious operations. When I signed her over at 6 months, after a failed attempt to raise her, she was at the developmental level of a 1 month old.
I went to a hospital after my suicide attempt. Now, I'm 33 and I cry for her about once every 2-3 months. She is 18 (you do the math) and may show up on my door any day. And what shape will she be in? What are all the ramifications of my choice? I have no clue, but I'm scared to neurosis about it.
"Women who give their children up for adoption never ever get over it - for the most part. It is a terribly cruel thing to do to a girl, in particular, to make her carry a baby, deliver it, and walk away from it."
I would have to agree here, and that's based on personal experience. I vote pro-choice, but when I had to make that choice...I chose to carry my pregnancy to term based on some pressures around me. I was in foster care.
In the second trimester, it was found that my child had a serious birth defect. No one was helping me with the decision to abort, but people connected to adoption agencies were encouraging me to carry the child. It wasn't hard, because I knew that an abortion was going to be a tough decision, and secretly, I felt I deserved to be punished.
My daughter was born and spent the first two months of her life going through 4 serious operations. When I signed her over at 6 months, after a failed attempt to raise her, she was at the developmental level of a 1 month old.
I went to a hospital after my suicide attempt. Now, I'm 33 and I cry for her about once every 2-3 months. She is 18 (you do the math) and may show up on my door any day. And what shape will she be in? What are all the ramifications of my choice? I have no clue, but I'm scared to neurosis about it.
GN, oh. Yes, they are both morally reprehesible.
Special Ed
Then why have you only attacked the destruction of fertilized eggs in a woman's womb? Where's your venom and outrage for unfertile couples and in vitro procedures? I don't think you're telling the truth here, frankly. I don't believe that you are just as morally outraged at both scenarios.
GN, oh. Yes, they are both morally reprehesible.
Special Ed
Then why have you only attacked the destruction of fertilized eggs in a woman's womb? Where's your venom and outrage for unfertile couples and in vitro procedures? I don't think you're telling the truth here, frankly. I don't believe that you are just as morally outraged at both scenarios.
SWR:
The point is good, except...
Anti-sodomy laws apply to women, too.
Marijuana laws apply to women, too.
SWR:
The point is good, except...
Anti-sodomy laws apply to women, too.
Marijuana laws apply to women, too.
Anti-sodomy laws apply to women, too.
Marijuana laws apply to women, too.
LJ | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 3:16 pm | #
Agreed. But I think the attempts to control abortion rights are part of a continum with attempts at social control in general. It's about power.
Anti-sodomy laws apply to women, too.
Marijuana laws apply to women, too.
LJ | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 3:16 pm | #
Agreed. But I think the attempts to control abortion rights are part of a continum with attempts at social control in general. It's about power.
Oh, Weblackey, how terrible for both of you. I'm so sorry about that. Hugs to you.
Oh, Weblackey, how terrible for both of you. I'm so sorry about that. Hugs to you.
weblackey - I'm so sorry.
I'm 53; I have a son who will be 38 in January. From the first time I felt him move I loved him. I let him be raised by strangers.
I never forgot him for one second. I'm lucky - we have a relationship now. But the family I gave my son to is a disgrace. His adoptive mother walked out on the family when my son was 4 years old.
His father is so possessive that when my son was 33 and wanted to get married, the man threw a fucking fit. I went to the wedding at my son's invitation. I was treated like shit by his fucked up adoptive family. His adoptive father asked me for the money the spent raising my son.
Men have no business getting involved in this argument. They just don't.
weblackey - I'm so sorry.
I'm 53; I have a son who will be 38 in January. From the first time I felt him move I loved him. I let him be raised by strangers.
I never forgot him for one second. I'm lucky - we have a relationship now. But the family I gave my son to is a disgrace. His adoptive mother walked out on the family when my son was 4 years old.
His father is so possessive that when my son was 33 and wanted to get married, the man threw a fucking fit. I went to the wedding at my son's invitation. I was treated like shit by his fucked up adoptive family. His adoptive father asked me for the money the spent raising my son.
Men have no business getting involved in this argument. They just don't.
Re:
it's my Fucking body.
IT IS...and I wish that was the message when I was 14!
Re:
it's my Fucking body.
IT IS...and I wish that was the message when I was 14!
I feel the need to repeat:
I am sick and tired, personally, of having so many laws passed about what I can do with my bollocks.
It's time for the Boston TeaBagging Party!!
I feel the need to repeat:
I am sick and tired, personally, of having so many laws passed about what I can do with my bollocks.
It's time for the Boston TeaBagging Party!!
that one of the reasons we lost is because of people like you, Hecate. >NOT< your views, your principles or your positions, but your smug fucking elitist (yeah, i said it) attitude
Joey,
We lost because (1) we were Diebolded in crucial counties in Ohio and Florida; (2) the corporate press used all its powers to elect Bush; and (3) dumb fucks in flyover country were quaking in their shoes that Osama would bomb their town halls.
If ugly attitudes lost elections, the Republicans wouldn't hold a single seat anywhere. Hello? SwiftBoats?
Now, my attitude about abortion is that it's MY FUCKING BODY and you don't get to decide what I do with it. And if that's elitist, smug, hateful, or icky, it's too goddamn bad.
that one of the reasons we lost is because of people like you, Hecate. >NOT< your views, your principles or your positions, but your smug fucking elitist (yeah, i said it) attitude
Joey,
We lost because (1) we were Diebolded in crucial counties in Ohio and Florida; (2) the corporate press used all its powers to elect Bush; and (3) dumb fucks in flyover country were quaking in their shoes that Osama would bomb their town halls.
If ugly attitudes lost elections, the Republicans wouldn't hold a single seat anywhere. Hello? SwiftBoats?
Now, my attitude about abortion is that it's MY FUCKING BODY and you don't get to decide what I do with it. And if that's elitist, smug, hateful, or icky, it's too goddamn bad.
SWR:
No doubt about the power aspect, but the one with women's sexuality has some uglier, deeper roots.
SWR:
No doubt about the power aspect, but the one with women's sexuality has some uglier, deeper roots.
I think the attempts to control abortion rights are part of a continum with attempts at social control in general. It's about power.
Agreed, but you still don't have the sex-specific laws against men, like, say, criminalizing masturbation because it's killing "potential humans".
Or no football watching on the Sabbath.
I think the attempts to control abortion rights are part of a continum with attempts at social control in general. It's about power.
Agreed, but you still don't have the sex-specific laws against men, like, say, criminalizing masturbation because it's killing "potential humans".
Or no football watching on the Sabbath.
His adoptive father asked me for the money the spent raising my son.
OH MY FUCKING GOD. How vulgar and insensitive can one person be?
His adoptive father asked me for the money the spent raising my son.
OH MY FUCKING GOD. How vulgar and insensitive can one person be?
Agreed, but you still don't have the sex-specific laws against men, like, say, criminalizing masturbation because it's killing "potential humans".
Or no football watching on the Sabbath.
dave | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 3:20 pm | #
I don't want to throw the thread off topic but I'd argue that hatred of male homosexuals is 100 times more vicious than hatred of lesbians.
Why?
The societal need to "prove" you're straight is essential to maintaining the kind of social structure we have.
If it were just OK to be gay we couldn't emotationally browbeat 19 year olds into kill towelheads by questioning their manhood.
Agreed, but you still don't have the sex-specific laws against men, like, say, criminalizing masturbation because it's killing "potential humans".
Or no football watching on the Sabbath.
dave | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 3:20 pm | #
I don't want to throw the thread off topic but I'd argue that hatred of male homosexuals is 100 times more vicious than hatred of lesbians.
Why?
The societal need to "prove" you're straight is essential to maintaining the kind of social structure we have.
If it were just OK to be gay we couldn't emotationally browbeat 19 year olds into kill towelheads by questioning their manhood.
I'd argue that hatred of male homosexuals is 100 times more vicious than hatred of lesbians.
I hear the point you're making, but I don't think that these sort of comparisons are useful.
I'd argue that hatred of male homosexuals is 100 times more vicious than hatred of lesbians.
I hear the point you're making, but I don't think that these sort of comparisons are useful.
weblackey - You and me both. You and me both.
You do what you think is the right thing. When you're 14 or 15 years old, what do you know? I wanted a family for my son. I thought I was doing the best thing for him. Maybe I did. But it has fucked up my whole life.
weblackey - You and me both. You and me both.
You do what you think is the right thing. When you're 14 or 15 years old, what do you know? I wanted a family for my son. I thought I was doing the best thing for him. Maybe I did. But it has fucked up my whole life.
Agreed, but you still don't have the sex-specific laws against men, like, say, criminalizing masturbation because it's killing "potential humans".
Dave... Do NOT tempt the fundies. DON'T.
Agreed, but you still don't have the sex-specific laws against men, like, say, criminalizing masturbation because it's killing "potential humans".
Dave... Do NOT tempt the fundies. DON'T.
I don't want to throw the thread off topic but I'd argue that hatred of male homosexuals is 100 times more vicious than hatred of lesbians.
Why?
The societal need to "prove" you're straight is essential to maintaining the kind of social structure we have.
Do you see that your last point in no way supports your first point?
I don't want to throw the thread off topic but I'd argue that hatred of male homosexuals is 100 times more vicious than hatred of lesbians.
Why?
The societal need to "prove" you're straight is essential to maintaining the kind of social structure we have.
Do you see that your last point in no way supports your first point?
I'm embarrassed and ashamed by the whole thing, but really, it needs to be known just how many women have tried the "conservative" solutions...and the horrible implications there as well.
Women will forever apologize on way or another if fundamentalist values are the norm
Don't apologize,women, that conceeds guilt.
I'm embarrassed and ashamed by the whole thing, but really, it needs to be known just how many women have tried the "conservative" solutions...and the horrible implications there as well.
Women will forever apologize on way or another if fundamentalist values are the norm
Don't apologize,women, that conceeds guilt.
SWR:
Your question about the hatred of males who love one another is about so many things.
But mostly it's about the every sperm is sacred.
And it's about how women are supposed to love men, so, by their twisted logic, loving men makes a homosexual womanly. And if even one of you is a bit on the girly side, then it makes ALL of you look like the one so many men hate--women. How can men control those wimmenfolk if the men are actin' just like 'em?
It's twisted. But that's my take on just a few examples.
SWR:
Your question about the hatred of males who love one another is about so many things.
But mostly it's about the every sperm is sacred.
And it's about how women are supposed to love men, so, by their twisted logic, loving men makes a homosexual womanly. And if even one of you is a bit on the girly side, then it makes ALL of you look like the one so many men hate--women. How can men control those wimmenfolk if the men are actin' just like 'em?
It's twisted. But that's my take on just a few examples.
why or how should I believe anything written here about individuals and their experience unless I know them personally?
fuck, you're quite the philosopher, aren't you?
personally, I don't give a shit whether you believe me or not.
but since you seem to insist on not going away, and since you also insist on not saying anything interesting or relevant, I'm going to give you another answer to your question, then ignore you.
I was awakened at 4:30 this morning by my wife's niece, announcing that her water had broken and that she was en route to the hospital to give birth to twins.
My wife got up, packed her bag, kissed me goodbye, and embarked on her six-hour drive to the hospital, in a small mountain town. It snowed here for a while this morning, and they probably got even more snow the direction she's headed. I will not see her, or her mother, who normally doubles as my weekday landlady, until after Christmas. Meanwhile, I will keep our holiday appointment with my family, six hours away in another direction, by myself.
I'm not particularly happy about the situation, and my mother and father will be even more disappointed when they find out. They're not related to the mother, and will probably never meet either her or her children.
So yes, having a baby is a big deal.
It's a big enough deal that I have difficulty not thinking that someone who insists on going around anonymously dictating what other people should do with their bodies and babies is a fucking asshole.
why or how should I believe anything written here about individuals and their experience unless I know them personally?
fuck, you're quite the philosopher, aren't you?
personally, I don't give a shit whether you believe me or not.
but since you seem to insist on not going away, and since you also insist on not saying anything interesting or relevant, I'm going to give you another answer to your question, then ignore you.
I was awakened at 4:30 this morning by my wife's niece, announcing that her water had broken and that she was en route to the hospital to give birth to twins.
My wife got up, packed her bag, kissed me goodbye, and embarked on her six-hour drive to the hospital, in a small mountain town. It snowed here for a while this morning, and they probably got even more snow the direction she's headed. I will not see her, or her mother, who normally doubles as my weekday landlady, until after Christmas. Meanwhile, I will keep our holiday appointment with my family, six hours away in another direction, by myself.
I'm not particularly happy about the situation, and my mother and father will be even more disappointed when they find out. They're not related to the mother, and will probably never meet either her or her children.
So yes, having a baby is a big deal.
It's a big enough deal that I have difficulty not thinking that someone who insists on going around anonymously dictating what other people should do with their bodies and babies is a fucking asshole.
SWR - now to be fair when Cabot Lodge said that he believed that which originated in East and Southern Europe "unassimilable" he was referring to things like piroschki and dumplings, not to the people. This was a man who believed in 'white food' after all.
SWR - now to be fair when Cabot Lodge said that he believed that which originated in East and Southern Europe "unassimilable" he was referring to things like piroschki and dumplings, not to the people. This was a man who believed in 'white food' after all.
>>Do you actually vote based on whether or not you think "the elite" likes you personally?
>>Do you actually vote based on whether or not you think "the elite" likes you personally?
Tena:
Your story just staggered me.
However, for what its worth, this total
stranger thinks you're a hell
of a good person.
Tena:
Your story just staggered me.
However, for what its worth, this total
stranger thinks you're a hell
of a good person.
Do you see that your last point in no way supports your first point?
rorschach | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 3:26 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Yes. I see it. But women for whatever reason don't have to "prove" themselves as women the same way as men have to prove themselves men.
I think the anti-abortion movement is probably trying to set up a similar form of societal control for women. You have to "prove" yourself a woman by having children. And legal abortion threatens this attempt at control.
Do you see that your last point in no way supports your first point?
rorschach | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 3:26 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Yes. I see it. But women for whatever reason don't have to "prove" themselves as women the same way as men have to prove themselves men.
I think the anti-abortion movement is probably trying to set up a similar form of societal control for women. You have to "prove" yourself a woman by having children. And legal abortion threatens this attempt at control.
oops..
i think there are millions upon millions of intelligent people in this country, regardless of where they stand, who are so completely and utterly turned off by the way democrats talk about issues such as abortion. and i can't say definitively that that's what's costing us elections. but i can say that we just lost to george bush, so something is fucking wrong. and since, like we all say in puzzlement, MOST of the country actually AGREES with US on the ISSUES, so why don't they VOTE for US??? well what the fuck do we expect?
oops..
i think there are millions upon millions of intelligent people in this country, regardless of where they stand, who are so completely and utterly turned off by the way democrats talk about issues such as abortion. and i can't say definitively that that's what's costing us elections. but i can say that we just lost to george bush, so something is fucking wrong. and since, like we all say in puzzlement, MOST of the country actually AGREES with US on the ISSUES, so why don't they VOTE for US??? well what the fuck do we expect?
But women for whatever reason don't have to "prove" themselves as women the same way as men have to prove themselves men.
I just don't think that's true. But, then, we are both men, so what the fuck do we know about it?
But women for whatever reason don't have to "prove" themselves as women the same way as men have to prove themselves men.
I just don't think that's true. But, then, we are both men, so what the fuck do we know about it?
that is quite a story to share with us, theo, to prove that you don't give a shit about someone you don't know.
SWR - now to be fair when Cabot Lodge said that he believed that which originated in East and Southern Europe "unassimilable" he was referring to things like piroschki and dumplings, not to the people. This was a man who believed in 'white food' after all.
Not at all. The typical white anglo saxon liberal in 1890 actually believed southern and eastern europeans were racially inferior.
Hitler destroyed 800 years of Central European culture based on a logical fallacy and of Germany went along with him.
that is quite a story to share with us, theo, to prove that you don't give a shit about someone you don't know.
SWR - now to be fair when Cabot Lodge said that he believed that which originated in East and Southern Europe "unassimilable" he was referring to things like piroschki and dumplings, not to the people. This was a man who believed in 'white food' after all.
Not at all. The typical white anglo saxon liberal in 1890 actually believed southern and eastern europeans were racially inferior.
Hitler destroyed 800 years of Central European culture based on a logical fallacy and of Germany went along with him.
Tena, that's just a horrible story.
I love the way all the anti-choice assholes act like it's so easy to give up a child. I can imagine that it's a very painful experience, why can't they?
Or right. They're a bunch of lizard brained assholes.
My stance on abortion is never going to change and I'm never going to compromise. No one has the right to tell a woman what do with her body.
If women can't control their biological destiny, they simply aren't free.
And if they can control women's bodies that way, they can sure as fuck control the rest of us.
Tena, that's just a horrible story.
I love the way all the anti-choice assholes act like it's so easy to give up a child. I can imagine that it's a very painful experience, why can't they?
Or right. They're a bunch of lizard brained assholes.
My stance on abortion is never going to change and I'm never going to compromise. No one has the right to tell a woman what do with her body.
If women can't control their biological destiny, they simply aren't free.
And if they can control women's bodies that way, they can sure as fuck control the rest of us.
LJ - try to imagine the most incredibly selfish, insensitive, controlling asshole imaginable, and you still won't come close.
I tried so hard to show my son's family that I knew that my place in his life would never take their places - he was 21 when we communicated. I never would have interfered - I made that vow when I gave him up. I bent over backwards to let them know that they were his family.
His adoptive father is just not a nice person. and don't get me started on the mother. My son calls his parents by their names. The whole thing makes me sick, but there's nothing I can do about it now. My son is a sweet, loving, immature man. We can't tell his father when I visit. It's ok - I'm just a strange kind of shadow figure in the whole thing, but my son genuinely cares for me.
LJ - try to imagine the most incredibly selfish, insensitive, controlling asshole imaginable, and you still won't come close.
I tried so hard to show my son's family that I knew that my place in his life would never take their places - he was 21 when we communicated. I never would have interfered - I made that vow when I gave him up. I bent over backwards to let them know that they were his family.
His adoptive father is just not a nice person. and don't get me started on the mother. My son calls his parents by their names. The whole thing makes me sick, but there's nothing I can do about it now. My son is a sweet, loving, immature man. We can't tell his father when I visit. It's ok - I'm just a strange kind of shadow figure in the whole thing, but my son genuinely cares for me.
Hecate, diebold, touche. ok, it's been fun, but i have to go! sorry for saying "fuck you." i really do like you
Hecate, diebold, touche. ok, it's been fun, but i have to go! sorry for saying "fuck you." i really do like you
RE: hatred of gays/lesbians:
PG Wodehouse, who was a lovely decent
humane liberal guy, was once being
interviewed and they asked him, well,
you're a big shot in the theatre,
you must know a lot of homosexuals,
what do you think of them?
Wodehouse replied to the effect that
he knew he was being unreasonably
bigoted, but he just didn't like them,
they gave him the creeps.
The next question was What do you
think of lesbians?
He replied, oh, they're cute!
RE: hatred of gays/lesbians:
PG Wodehouse, who was a lovely decent
humane liberal guy, was once being
interviewed and they asked him, well,
you're a big shot in the theatre,
you must know a lot of homosexuals,
what do you think of them?
Wodehouse replied to the effect that
he knew he was being unreasonably
bigoted, but he just didn't like them,
they gave him the creeps.
The next question was What do you
think of lesbians?
He replied, oh, they're cute!
His adoptive father asked me for the money the spent raising my son.
Tena...I'm sorry for your experience too..and there are so many others that have our experience. Adoption is not the "cure."
His adoptive father asked me for the money the spent raising my son.
Tena...I'm sorry for your experience too..and there are so many others that have our experience. Adoption is not the "cure."
Joey:
How many progressives get a voice in the media?
Please tell me.
How many of them get a fair shot at presenting what they have to say?
:::crickets chirping:::
How are we supposed to get our message out when the few we DO have, like Michael Moore, get demonized the second they open their mouths? The media clowns talk about his weight. They talk about his slob clothes (which, personally, I find rather endearing). They accuse him of treason and God knows what else. They talk about EVERYTHING but what he's saying.
When our media whores interview someone like Rummy, they let him finish his sentences. Ever see Michael Moore interviewed? I have yet to see an interviewer let him answer in a complete sentence on a consistent basis. For instance, Charlie Rose spent more time defending journalists than letting Michael Moore speak. It was a fucking disgrace. But put Elijah Wood on there, and Rose can't let the boy talk enough. Not that there's anything wrong with Elijah Wood (there isn't), but it's the principle.
Joey:
How many progressives get a voice in the media?
Please tell me.
How many of them get a fair shot at presenting what they have to say?
:::crickets chirping:::
How are we supposed to get our message out when the few we DO have, like Michael Moore, get demonized the second they open their mouths? The media clowns talk about his weight. They talk about his slob clothes (which, personally, I find rather endearing). They accuse him of treason and God knows what else. They talk about EVERYTHING but what he's saying.
When our media whores interview someone like Rummy, they let him finish his sentences. Ever see Michael Moore interviewed? I have yet to see an interviewer let him answer in a complete sentence on a consistent basis. For instance, Charlie Rose spent more time defending journalists than letting Michael Moore speak. It was a fucking disgrace. But put Elijah Wood on there, and Rose can't let the boy talk enough. Not that there's anything wrong with Elijah Wood (there isn't), but it's the principle.
LJ - try to imagine the most incredibly selfish, insensitive, controlling asshole imaginable, and you still won't come close.
I don't have to imagine him. Why do you think Mr. LJ #1 (aka The BASTARD) is an ex-husband? Heck, even The Selfish Control Freak (ex-Mr LJ #2) paled in comparison to The BASTARD.
LJ - try to imagine the most incredibly selfish, insensitive, controlling asshole imaginable, and you still won't come close.
I don't have to imagine him. Why do you think Mr. LJ #1 (aka The BASTARD) is an ex-husband? Heck, even The Selfish Control Freak (ex-Mr LJ #2) paled in comparison to The BASTARD.
SWR -
I am aware of the rest.
SWR -
I am aware of the rest.
steve simels - thanks. I've been lucky, like I say. But that does not erase the pain and never will.
I can't describe it.
I wish to hell people would just leave women alone. We are constantly tormented by society. It seems as though we bear the brunt of whatever fucking outrage someone manufactures. I know that as a gay man, you have pretty much the same experience in a lot of ways, and I think you can understand in ways that straight men can't. I hate to say that - I love men. I know that hurts men to hear that. But the fact is it is just impossible to convey to someone what it is like to have your most intimate functions up for grabs in the courts and the pulpits.
steve simels - thanks. I've been lucky, like I say. But that does not erase the pain and never will.
I can't describe it.
I wish to hell people would just leave women alone. We are constantly tormented by society. It seems as though we bear the brunt of whatever fucking outrage someone manufactures. I know that as a gay man, you have pretty much the same experience in a lot of ways, and I think you can understand in ways that straight men can't. I hate to say that - I love men. I know that hurts men to hear that. But the fact is it is just impossible to convey to someone what it is like to have your most intimate functions up for grabs in the courts and the pulpits.
weblackey - No, adoption is not a cure. It creates more problems than it ever solves, and that's the truth in most instances I know about personally. I have a good friend who adopted a baby boy. He's grown now. She can't stand him. She tells him she wishes she hadn't adopted him. I've almost broken with her over it - it hurts me so. But everyone has this idea that little babies who are adopted fly into the arms of a loving family and all is well.
Sometimes it is a wonderful situation. But the woman who gives up her baby does not ever get over it. Not ever. And not all adoptive families are what they appear to be.
weblackey - No, adoption is not a cure. It creates more problems than it ever solves, and that's the truth in most instances I know about personally. I have a good friend who adopted a baby boy. He's grown now. She can't stand him. She tells him she wishes she hadn't adopted him. I've almost broken with her over it - it hurts me so. But everyone has this idea that little babies who are adopted fly into the arms of a loving family and all is well.
Sometimes it is a wonderful situation. But the woman who gives up her baby does not ever get over it. Not ever. And not all adoptive families are what they appear to be.
SWR -
I am aware of the rest.
GWPDA | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 3:43 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Just clicked your homepage. Yeah, you probably are.
SWR -
I am aware of the rest.
GWPDA | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 3:43 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Just clicked your homepage. Yeah, you probably are.
there are millions upon millions of intelligent people in this country, regardless of where they stand, who are so completely and utterly turned off by the way democrats talk about issues such as abortion
Again, as with Amy Sullivan's post, not a single example of a prominent Democrat talking about things in a way that "turns people off".
.
there are millions upon millions of intelligent people in this country, regardless of where they stand, who are so completely and utterly turned off by the way democrats talk about issues such as abortion
Again, as with Amy Sullivan's post, not a single example of a prominent Democrat talking about things in a way that "turns people off".
.
Tena:
Actually, I'm not gay-- I just said
that to annoy Special Ed.
Of course, there's would be nothing
wrong with me if I was gay.
Or, as I've said here before, as
a very wise friend once told me,
given the right drug anybody will
sleep with anybody.
Tena:
Actually, I'm not gay-- I just said
that to annoy Special Ed.
Of course, there's would be nothing
wrong with me if I was gay.
Or, as I've said here before, as
a very wise friend once told me,
given the right drug anybody will
sleep with anybody.
steve simels - I didn't think you were, but then you said you were and I just accepted that. That's ok. Annoy the fuck out him, will you?
I enjoy it.
steve simels - I didn't think you were, but then you said you were and I just accepted that. That's ok. Annoy the fuck out him, will you?
I enjoy it.
Now, my attitude about abortion is that it's MY FUCKING BODY and you don't get to decide what I do with it. And if that's elitist, smug, hateful, or icky, it's too goddamn bad.
Apparently no one bothered to address the kidney donation issue. I guess if, on that, you took the position that "no one has the right to make me donate a kidney because it's MY FUCKING BODY," you'd be an icky, smug, hateful elitist too. ::sigh::
(Rx picked up. Damn, but traffic out there SUCKS today.)
{{{{{{Weblackey}}}}} Y'know, it would be really nice if we could get the message out to very young girls that they DO have a choice. Like we could buy ads for THAT, right? ::double sigh::
Now, my attitude about abortion is that it's MY FUCKING BODY and you don't get to decide what I do with it. And if that's elitist, smug, hateful, or icky, it's too goddamn bad.
Apparently no one bothered to address the kidney donation issue. I guess if, on that, you took the position that "no one has the right to make me donate a kidney because it's MY FUCKING BODY," you'd be an icky, smug, hateful elitist too. ::sigh::
(Rx picked up. Damn, but traffic out there SUCKS today.)
{{{{{{Weblackey}}}}} Y'know, it would be really nice if we could get the message out to very young girls that they DO have a choice. Like we could buy ads for THAT, right? ::double sigh::
Tena:
I don't know if you noticed, but
Special Ed took off after I called him
a liar.
Like most bullies, he's a coward.
Tena:
I don't know if you noticed, but
Special Ed took off after I called him
a liar.
Like most bullies, he's a coward.
Silleigh - that have that choice now. When I was pregnant, that choice didn't exist. It was still illegal.
We didn't know where to go. And then it got to be too late. That's another reason that young women need to know that there is the option so that they can take advantage of it before it is too late.
This whole debate just amazes me. Thirty years down the road and I cannot believe that we are fighting over this. I really can't.
Silleigh - that have that choice now. When I was pregnant, that choice didn't exist. It was still illegal.
We didn't know where to go. And then it got to be too late. That's another reason that young women need to know that there is the option so that they can take advantage of it before it is too late.
This whole debate just amazes me. Thirty years down the road and I cannot believe that we are fighting over this. I really can't.
Or, as I've said here before, as
a very wise friend once told me,
given the right drug anybody will
sleep with anybody.
I dunno... I used to go out drinking with my lesbian co-workers in Dallas all the time. Sometimes we went to straight bars. Sometimes we went to lesbian bars. I'd get 200 sheets to the wind just about every time, and never got it on with any of them. I did ask once why women didn't hit on me. I mean, sometimes lesbians hit on the other straight girls, but never me. I didn't care one way or another, I just noticed it and asked if I sent out some weird signal--if I seemed unfriendly or whatever. One woman shrugged and said, "We know you're straight." The other lesbians at the table kinda nodded in agreement, and that seemed to settle the matter.
Or, as I've said here before, as
a very wise friend once told me,
given the right drug anybody will
sleep with anybody.
I dunno... I used to go out drinking with my lesbian co-workers in Dallas all the time. Sometimes we went to straight bars. Sometimes we went to lesbian bars. I'd get 200 sheets to the wind just about every time, and never got it on with any of them. I did ask once why women didn't hit on me. I mean, sometimes lesbians hit on the other straight girls, but never me. I didn't care one way or another, I just noticed it and asked if I sent out some weird signal--if I seemed unfriendly or whatever. One woman shrugged and said, "We know you're straight." The other lesbians at the table kinda nodded in agreement, and that seemed to settle the matter.
LJ - None of the lesbians I've known have ever made a pass at me. I don't think that homosexuals go out of their way to come on to people whom they know to be straight - who likes rejection?
If the right wasn't so fucking paranoid...
LJ - None of the lesbians I've known have ever made a pass at me. I don't think that homosexuals go out of their way to come on to people whom they know to be straight - who likes rejection?
If the right wasn't so fucking paranoid...
LJ:
Like I said, given the
right drug.....
I recommend a qualude and a bottle
of mateus.
I'm kidding!!!!!
LJ:
Like I said, given the
right drug.....
I recommend a qualude and a bottle
of mateus.
I'm kidding!!!!!
This whole debate just amazes me. Thirty years down the road and I cannot believe that we are fighting over this. I really can't.
I can't believe we're fighting it still, either.
But then we've never stopped fighting the Civil War, either.
Or the Mexican-American War (ask some South Texans about that one).
Heck, sometimes, I think we haven't stopped fighting the Revolutionary War.
This whole debate just amazes me. Thirty years down the road and I cannot believe that we are fighting over this. I really can't.
I can't believe we're fighting it still, either.
But then we've never stopped fighting the Civil War, either.
Or the Mexican-American War (ask some South Texans about that one).
Heck, sometimes, I think we haven't stopped fighting the Revolutionary War.
God damn it, why can't we just hire
some Hessians to fight for us in
Iraq?
God damn it, why can't we just hire
some Hessians to fight for us in
Iraq?
Now who would say a woman's body is "Icky"?!?
~raises hand~
Now who would say a woman's body is "Icky"?!?
~raises hand~
steve - Um, I'd go with Ecstasy and tequila shots. I think that would do it.
steve - Um, I'd go with Ecstasy and tequila shots. I think that would do it.
Steve:
I would never be so cheap as to drink Mateus.
And who said I didn't have the Quaaludes with tequila?
Tena:
Oh, I wasn't implying that their being homosexual meant that they were so overcome with lust that they'd hit on anything that moved. I just wondered why I seemed to be different.
A gay friend of mine used to joke about the "trickables." They were mostly straight, but, as in Steve's scenario, under certain circumstances (curiosity, or being more bisexual than they revealed in public), they would let themselves be "tricked" into having homosexual sex. Of course, very few could be tricked unless they had the inclination already, and he knew this. But he liked stirring up people with inflammatory rhetoric. I watched some interesting exchanges over his use of that term at a polite dinner party.
Steve:
I would never be so cheap as to drink Mateus.
And who said I didn't have the Quaaludes with tequila?
Tena:
Oh, I wasn't implying that their being homosexual meant that they were so overcome with lust that they'd hit on anything that moved. I just wondered why I seemed to be different.
A gay friend of mine used to joke about the "trickables." They were mostly straight, but, as in Steve's scenario, under certain circumstances (curiosity, or being more bisexual than they revealed in public), they would let themselves be "tricked" into having homosexual sex. Of course, very few could be tricked unless they had the inclination already, and he knew this. But he liked stirring up people with inflammatory rhetoric. I watched some interesting exchanges over his use of that term at a polite dinner party.
Tena:
Alas, I'm too old to try Ecstasy.
But I like the way your mind works....
Tena:
Alas, I'm too old to try Ecstasy.
But I like the way your mind works....
I'd go with Ecstasy and tequila shots. I think that would do it.
Sounds like a date!
I'd go with Ecstasy and tequila shots. I think that would do it.
Sounds like a date!
steve simels, the liar, called me a liar. Oh, how silly of me to take him at his word!
And now I'm called a bully and a coward!
How to answer these attacks? What hope have I of defending against the Repository Of All Knowledge?
steve simels, the liar, called me a liar. Oh, how silly of me to take him at his word!
And now I'm called a bully and a coward!
How to answer these attacks? What hope have I of defending against the Repository Of All Knowledge?
I have to admit, if Antonio Banderas
hit on me, I might be persuaded.
I just wanna be loved -- IS THAT SO
WRONG??????
I have to admit, if Antonio Banderas
hit on me, I might be persuaded.
I just wanna be loved -- IS THAT SO
WRONG??????
LJ - I don't doubt that there are "trickables" around. And I don't doubt that under the right circumstances I would be tempted. The circumstances would have to be really really right. I like men. But sex is usually an attractive offer. And I'm a naturally curious person.
I didn't mean to imply that you were saying that lesbians will come on to anyone. I understand what you mean, too - you kind of feel like, Hey! what am I, chopped liver? On the other hand, if I was being propositioned steadily by lesbians I would really begin to wonder what kind of vibe I was creating.
LJ - I don't doubt that there are "trickables" around. And I don't doubt that under the right circumstances I would be tempted. The circumstances would have to be really really right. I like men. But sex is usually an attractive offer. And I'm a naturally curious person.
I didn't mean to imply that you were saying that lesbians will come on to anyone. I understand what you mean, too - you kind of feel like, Hey! what am I, chopped liver? On the other hand, if I was being propositioned steadily by lesbians I would really begin to wonder what kind of vibe I was creating.
steve simels, the liar, called me a liar. Oh, how silly of me to take him at his word!
And now I'm called a bully and a coward!
How to answer these attacks? What hope have I of defending against the Repository Of All Knowledge?
Well, now you just look silly, Specious Ed.
So don't bother.
steve simels, the liar, called me a liar. Oh, how silly of me to take him at his word!
And now I'm called a bully and a coward!
How to answer these attacks? What hope have I of defending against the Repository Of All Knowledge?
Well, now you just look silly, Specious Ed.
So don't bother.
GN, I am not outraged for or against abortion. We all live in the world, and while there are many simple answers, oftentimes those answers are very painful and difficult to implement.
For instance, is killing another person wrong?
GN, I am not outraged for or against abortion. We all live in the world, and while there are many simple answers, oftentimes those answers are very painful and difficult to implement.
For instance, is killing another person wrong?
I just have to say, it is glorious being bisexual.
I just have to say, it is glorious being bisexual.
Tena sez:
steve - Um, I'd go with Ecstasy and tequila shots. I think that would do it.
The tequila would moderate the Ex too much.
Not that I would know.
Oy. I'm in a ripping bad mood. I'm starting to think like Incog.
.
Tena sez:
steve - Um, I'd go with Ecstasy and tequila shots. I think that would do it.
The tequila would moderate the Ex too much.
Not that I would know.
Oy. I'm in a ripping bad mood. I'm starting to think like Incog.
.
Sorry, that last was pretty OT. Nevermind.
Sorry, that last was pretty OT. Nevermind.
You know, given the right drug,
I'd even blow Special Ed.
That's how democratic I am.....
You know, given the right drug,
I'd even blow Special Ed.
That's how democratic I am.....
BTW:
Last night I was talking to a good
liberal pal o mine, and he let drop
that he was a regular peruser of
Atrios/Eschaton, thought the site was
great (etc) but that he didn't post
comments.
If he turns out to be Special Ed,
I'm gonna be really bummed.
BTW:
Last night I was talking to a good
liberal pal o mine, and he let drop
that he was a regular peruser of
Atrios/Eschaton, thought the site was
great (etc) but that he didn't post
comments.
If he turns out to be Special Ed,
I'm gonna be really bummed.
steve simels - C'mon - beauty seduces everyone.
steve simels - C'mon - beauty seduces everyone.
But Rory... Weren't you the one who said you woke up with twice as many, "Oh God, what was I thinking???!!!" mornings?
But Rory... Weren't you the one who said you woke up with twice as many, "Oh God, what was I thinking???!!!" mornings?
But Rory... Weren't you the one who said you woke up with twice as many, "Oh God, what was I thinking???!!!" mornings?
The glory, and the horror...
All too true.
Damn your memory, LJ!
But Rory... Weren't you the one who said you woke up with twice as many, "Oh God, what was I thinking???!!!" mornings?
The glory, and the horror...
All too true.
Damn your memory, LJ!
For instance, is killing another person wrong?
Special Ed
A fetus is not a person.
Any Iraqi is.
answer your own question...
For instance, is killing another person wrong?
Special Ed
A fetus is not a person.
Any Iraqi is.
answer your own question...
I forget who said it, but the real
Indecent Proposal deal wouldn't be
would you sleep with Robert Redford
for a million dollars.
It would be, would you sleep with
Ernest Borgnine for ten grand.
I forget who said it, but the real
Indecent Proposal deal wouldn't be
would you sleep with Robert Redford
for a million dollars.
It would be, would you sleep with
Ernest Borgnine for ten grand.
steve simels - too old to try ecstasy -= what the hell does that mean?
If you never have, I'll tell you what, it is well worth it. Or it was, when it first was around and I did it. I loved it. I am assuming it is still they same shit.
steve simels - too old to try ecstasy -= what the hell does that mean?
If you never have, I'll tell you what, it is well worth it. Or it was, when it first was around and I did it. I loved it. I am assuming it is still they same shit.
Used to see Ernest Borgnine all the time, sitting at a back table at the House of Kwong in Woodland Hills - I think he was a partner.
I think I -would- be prepared to give Ernest Borgnine $10,000 never to ask me that question or, in fact, never to come within eye view of me again. Altho, I really do think Marty was terrific.
Used to see Ernest Borgnine all the time, sitting at a back table at the House of Kwong in Woodland Hills - I think he was a partner.
I think I -would- be prepared to give Ernest Borgnine $10,000 never to ask me that question or, in fact, never to come within eye view of me again. Altho, I really do think Marty was terrific.
Tena:
I'm so old that I quit smoking pot
before the invention of the bong.
Really.
Tena:
I'm so old that I quit smoking pot
before the invention of the bong.
Really.
Tena:
Yeah, I hear ya. I mean, if I'm getting hit on by more women than men, well, maybe I need to re-examine my orientation.
And I suppose there could be a situation where I could be induced to consider doing a chick. I'm trying to think of one, since I know drugs/alcohol didn't work.
Maybe somebody really hot hitting on me. I look for beauty in a partner--looks and behavior. So that would probably be the in for me.
Tena:
Yeah, I hear ya. I mean, if I'm getting hit on by more women than men, well, maybe I need to re-examine my orientation.
And I suppose there could be a situation where I could be induced to consider doing a chick. I'm trying to think of one, since I know drugs/alcohol didn't work.
Maybe somebody really hot hitting on me. I look for beauty in a partner--looks and behavior. So that would probably be the in for me.
It would be, would you sleep with
Ernest Borgnine for ten grand.
No.
It would have to be the million. At least.
I'd sleep with Redford for free.
It would be, would you sleep with
Ernest Borgnine for ten grand.
No.
It would have to be the million. At least.
I'd sleep with Redford for free.
still the same shit.
I didn't realize that tequila would moderate it. I think I was drinking scotch, since that's what I used to drink.
Ex was actually still legal when I got ahold of some. That's how long ago it was - Mr. Tena and I were still newlyweds.
still the same shit.
I didn't realize that tequila would moderate it. I think I was drinking scotch, since that's what I used to drink.
Ex was actually still legal when I got ahold of some. That's how long ago it was - Mr. Tena and I were still newlyweds.
LJ - yeah, when I said the situation would have to be right, I meant the whole situation - a beautiful woman and some chemistry. Since I like men, the chemistry is not likely to be there. But nothing is impossible.
LJ - yeah, when I said the situation would have to be right, I meant the whole situation - a beautiful woman and some chemistry. Since I like men, the chemistry is not likely to be there. But nothing is impossible.
WGG, it depends on your point of view.
I used to know a Bhuddist who refused to kill anyone for any reason, and he was in the military. Drafted, of course, but he didn't whine about it.
I personally believe that it is okay to kill:
1. In defense of myself or others when in danger of grievous bodily harm or death.
2. To stop the escape of someone who has just killed, raped, or grieviously injured me or another, and when killing him would pose little or no risk to others in the area.
3. When engaged in warfare, it's okay to kill enemy combatants, unless they are surrendering or otherwise pose no danger to me or others (as in being too physically injured to pose a danger, not merely out of range).
4. When, if not killed, the bad guy presents a potential for lethal danger to me and others in the future, (ie, some guy writes a last will and testament appended to his manifesto that explains his intent to blow up a public venue, and you see that he has the explosives with him.) and there is no other reasonable way to stop him.
There may be more, but this covers most instances.
WGG, it depends on your point of view.
I used to know a Bhuddist who refused to kill anyone for any reason, and he was in the military. Drafted, of course, but he didn't whine about it.
I personally believe that it is okay to kill:
1. In defense of myself or others when in danger of grievous bodily harm or death.
2. To stop the escape of someone who has just killed, raped, or grieviously injured me or another, and when killing him would pose little or no risk to others in the area.
3. When engaged in warfare, it's okay to kill enemy combatants, unless they are surrendering or otherwise pose no danger to me or others (as in being too physically injured to pose a danger, not merely out of range).
4. When, if not killed, the bad guy presents a potential for lethal danger to me and others in the future, (ie, some guy writes a last will and testament appended to his manifesto that explains his intent to blow up a public venue, and you see that he has the explosives with him.) and there is no other reasonable way to stop him.
There may be more, but this covers most instances.
What I don't fucking understand is why the nutcase who killed a pregnant lady to steal her fetus is not even being charged with murder!!
"Kidnapping resulting in death" is what she's facing, because after all, the fetus didn't die.
No one gives a shit about the pregnant woman.
What I don't fucking understand is why the nutcase who killed a pregnant lady to steal her fetus is not even being charged with murder!!
"Kidnapping resulting in death" is what she's facing, because after all, the fetus didn't die.
No one gives a shit about the pregnant woman.
For instance, is killing another person wrong?
In an abortion thread, this assumes the answer. Now, next time Atrios posts a thread on the Iraq war, I definitely expect to see you show up and argue as strenuously against that war as you've argued against abortion.
For instance, is killing another person wrong?
In an abortion thread, this assumes the answer. Now, next time Atrios posts a thread on the Iraq war, I definitely expect to see you show up and argue as strenuously against that war as you've argued against abortion.
Damn your memory, LJ!
Amazing the goofy things I can remember. It's driven every single man in my life crazy. I especially love the things I remember when they think I wasn't paying attention. Usually I wasn't, to be honest (so many people bore me, so easily). But I picked up on it.
Damn your memory, LJ!
Amazing the goofy things I can remember. It's driven every single man in my life crazy. I especially love the things I remember when they think I wasn't paying attention. Usually I wasn't, to be honest (so many people bore me, so easily). But I picked up on it.
LJ, Tena:
Konopelli's Maxim:
There's really only 'sex.' Anything else is just adjectives...
LJ, Tena:
Konopelli's Maxim:
There's really only 'sex.' Anything else is just adjectives...
Stinky:
I'm not a lawyer, but I think it's the prosecutor's in that can get her convicted better at the federal level.
And I think the wording is a bit clumsy, but it's a way to join the crimes of kidnapping AND murder. An all-in-one, so to speak.
Stinky:
I'm not a lawyer, but I think it's the prosecutor's in that can get her convicted better at the federal level.
And I think the wording is a bit clumsy, but it's a way to join the crimes of kidnapping AND murder. An all-in-one, so to speak.
Usually I wasn't, to be honest (so many people bore me, so easily). But I picked up on it.
Well, I certainly hope I don't fall into that category!
Usually I wasn't, to be honest (so many people bore me, so easily). But I picked up on it.
Well, I certainly hope I don't fall into that category!
Wow, I'm really sorry I called Special
Ed a liar, a coward, and a bully.
Turns out he's actually clinically
insane.
Wow, I'm really sorry I called Special
Ed a liar, a coward, and a bully.
Turns out he's actually clinically
insane.
I'm awfully straight, but I'd do Emma Thompson or Judy Dench in a heartbeat -- no drugs. Can't say why, but I've always found both of them incredibly sexy.
I'm awfully straight, but I'd do Emma Thompson or Judy Dench in a heartbeat -- no drugs. Can't say why, but I've always found both of them incredibly sexy.
great, you go on believing that, and meanwhile making abortion illegal means forcing poor women into dangerous and at best deadly situations (the worse end involves living the rest of one's life in torture) while doing absolutely nothing for the wealthy bitches. So the illegality thing is beside the question of life and the only people pursuing it are conciously or not into sexual and class warfare.
And it gonna be hard to get us back into corsets, dear...
great, you go on believing that, and meanwhile making abortion illegal means forcing poor women into dangerous and at best deadly situations (the worse end involves living the rest of one's life in torture) while doing absolutely nothing for the wealthy bitches. So the illegality thing is beside the question of life and the only people pursuing it are conciously or not into sexual and class warfare.
And it gonna be hard to get us back into corsets, dear...
Kono:
I believe it's a bit more complicated than that, since "sex" is a catch-all term for a broad range of behaviors.
Kono:
I believe it's a bit more complicated than that, since "sex" is a catch-all term for a broad range of behaviors.
Rory:
You're not. You poor man.
Rory:
You're not. You poor man.
kei & yuri- How the hell will we even begin to get you into corsets when we're not sure of the correct pronoun for you?
kei & yuri- How the hell will we even begin to get you into corsets when we're not sure of the correct pronoun for you?
Special Ed believes that it is ok to kill someone who is a fully aware human being, but has a problem with ending a pregnancy that hasn't advanced beyond the cellular stage?
He is clinically insane.
Special Ed believes that it is ok to kill someone who is a fully aware human being, but has a problem with ending a pregnancy that hasn't advanced beyond the cellular stage?
He is clinically insane.
I'm awfully straight, but I'd do Emma Thompson or Judy Dench in a heartbeat
Honestly, I believe that any straight man who says he wouldn't do Johnny Depp is a liar or a fool. Most likely a liar.
I'm awfully straight, but I'd do Emma Thompson or Judy Dench in a heartbeat
Honestly, I believe that any straight man who says he wouldn't do Johnny Depp is a liar or a fool. Most likely a liar.
Hecate:
Try to find a video copy of the mid
sixties Sherlock Holmes vs Jack the
Ripper film "A Study in Terror."
A very young Judy Dench plays the
ingenue and she's a knockout.
Hecate:
Try to find a video copy of the mid
sixties Sherlock Holmes vs Jack the
Ripper film "A Study in Terror."
A very young Judy Dench plays the
ingenue and she's a knockout.
Hecate - I'd so Selma Hayek in a second, no drugs. I think she's luscious. I bet she smells as luscious as she looks.
Hecate - I'd so Selma Hayek in a second, no drugs. I think she's luscious. I bet she smells as luscious as she looks.
Tena, I don't have a prolem with it. I said I think it's wrong, but legal, and I'm not going to try to change the law.
I also said I don't have a better solution to the whole social problem of unwanted pregnancies.
Tena, I don't have a prolem with it. I said I think it's wrong, but legal, and I'm not going to try to change the law.
I also said I don't have a better solution to the whole social problem of unwanted pregnancies.
rorschach - Anyone who is going to do Johnny Depp is going to have to climb over me first.
He is just so sexy. He is gorgeous, but undeniably male. Oy - he should be illegal.
rorschach - Anyone who is going to do Johnny Depp is going to have to climb over me first.
He is just so sexy. He is gorgeous, but undeniably male. Oy - he should be illegal.
Besides, the "fully aware human being" knows the risks and chooses them. A fetus doesn't.
Besides, the "fully aware human being" knows the risks and chooses them. A fetus doesn't.
We were just thinking the murderer--who is a murderer per se and not some sort of contrived arguable "kidnapper"--should be bled to death while we cut out his testicles, when we realized that even this midaeval bs would not be comparable to what he did.
We recall seeing Caligula (John Hurt) do this in I, Claudius, and besides the horror you're like, well, this is not something that would be seen in real life since that crazy monster, and here it is in the USA.
(gawpd--we were speaking for the Gender, as is our right [or was it wont?] Or maybe for "speaking for the gender" we meant "asking for the sex"...)
I don't have a prolem with it. I said I think it's wrong
Cognitive dissonance, anyone?
We were just thinking the murderer--who is a murderer per se and not some sort of contrived arguable "kidnapper"--should be bled to death while we cut out his testicles, when we realized that even this midaeval bs would not be comparable to what he did.
We recall seeing Caligula (John Hurt) do this in I, Claudius, and besides the horror you're like, well, this is not something that would be seen in real life since that crazy monster, and here it is in the USA.
(gawpd--we were speaking for the Gender, as is our right [or was it wont?] Or maybe for "speaking for the gender" we meant "asking for the sex"...)
I don't have a prolem with it. I said I think it's wrong
Cognitive dissonance, anyone?
rorschach - Anyone who is going to do Johnny Depp is going to have to climb over me first.
Now THAT sounds like a date, especially if we throw in some tequila and ecstasy.
Oy!
rorschach - Anyone who is going to do Johnny Depp is going to have to climb over me first.
Now THAT sounds like a date, especially if we throw in some tequila and ecstasy.
Oy!
Special Ed - Besides, the "fully aware human being" knows the risks and chooses them. A fetus doesn't.
I don't know where to begin with everything that is wrong with this statement.
Special Ed - Besides, the "fully aware human being" knows the risks and chooses them. A fetus doesn't.
I don't know where to begin with everything that is wrong with this statement.
Actresses... Um...
Who's hot?
Um...
I'm drawing a blank.
Maybe Kate Winslet. She has curves. If I'm gonna do a chick, ever, she has to feel like a girl, rather than a castrated man (Ann Coulter probably fits that description; if she had a dick, she'd wag it in our faces).
Actresses... Um...
Who's hot?
Um...
I'm drawing a blank.
Maybe Kate Winslet. She has curves. If I'm gonna do a chick, ever, she has to feel like a girl, rather than a castrated man (Ann Coulter probably fits that description; if she had a dick, she'd wag it in our faces).
but i can say that we just lost to george bush, so something is fucking wrong. and since, like we all say in puzzlement, MOST of the country actually AGREES with US on the ISSUES, so why don't they VOTE for US??? well what the fuck do we expect?
Well, it might help if we actually addressed the main attacks against abortion, which are the fetus' ability to feel pain and the supposed lack of restrictions on third-trimester abortions.
Why is it so hard to say "no, in fact, a fetus can't feel any pain until the third trimester, at which point abortions are performed only in extreme cases"?
but i can say that we just lost to george bush, so something is fucking wrong. and since, like we all say in puzzlement, MOST of the country actually AGREES with US on the ISSUES, so why don't they VOTE for US??? well what the fuck do we expect?
Well, it might help if we actually addressed the main attacks against abortion, which are the fetus' ability to feel pain and the supposed lack of restrictions on third-trimester abortions.
Why is it so hard to say "no, in fact, a fetus can't feel any pain until the third trimester, at which point abortions are performed only in extreme cases"?
rorschach - Anyone who is going to do Johnny Depp is going to have to climb over me first.
Now THAT sounds like a date, especially if we throw in some tequila and ecstasy
Now me and Johnny Depp and Aragorn--that would be a swinging party. You can tag along if you like, Rory. I'll share.
rorschach - Anyone who is going to do Johnny Depp is going to have to climb over me first.
Now THAT sounds like a date, especially if we throw in some tequila and ecstasy
Now me and Johnny Depp and Aragorn--that would be a swinging party. You can tag along if you like, Rory. I'll share.
rorschach, it's not a cognitive dissonance as much as accepting a necessary evil.
Is there nothing you find wrong, yet support for the greater good?
rorschach, it's not a cognitive dissonance as much as accepting a necessary evil.
Is there nothing you find wrong, yet support for the greater good?
Honestly, I believe that any straight man who says he wouldn't do Johnny Depp
is a liar or a fool. Most likely a liar.
rorschach | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 5:01 pm | #
Dude -- ditto for any gay woman.
Honestly, I believe that any straight man who says he wouldn't do Johnny Depp
is a liar or a fool. Most likely a liar.
rorschach | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 5:01 pm | #
Dude -- ditto for any gay woman.
Actresses... Um...
Who's hot?
Um...
I'm drawing a blank.
Isabella Rossellini. No doubt about it.
Actresses... Um...
Who's hot?
Um...
I'm drawing a blank.
Isabella Rossellini. No doubt about it.
My right to free speech, for instance?
My right to free speech, for instance?
She doesn't do it for me, Rory. She's lovely--I can see that. But she couldn't induce me to go down on her.
She doesn't do it for me, Rory. She's lovely--I can see that. But she couldn't induce me to go down on her.
LJ--Aragorn's pretty hot, but give me the elf any day. He's just so pretty!
LJ--Aragorn's pretty hot, but give me the elf any day. He's just so pretty!
kei & yuri -
You are the very meaning of evanescence to me. Carry on.
kei & yuri -
You are the very meaning of evanescence to me. Carry on.
My right to free speech, for instance?
Why on earth would I find that wrong? Annoying, sure. Irritating, you bet. Inane, no doubt.
But wrong? No.
My right to free speech, for instance?
Why on earth would I find that wrong? Annoying, sure. Irritating, you bet. Inane, no doubt.
But wrong? No.
Cognitive dissonance, anyone?
rorschach
That's what's on the canapé trays at ALL the hottest GOP parties this year.
Cognitive dissonance, anyone?
rorschach
That's what's on the canapé trays at ALL the hottest GOP parties this year.
Rory:
At first, I liked Legolas. But it was shallow. He was cute. But not cute enough.
Aragorn grew on me, until he became my obsession. Viggo Mortensen grows that hair and beard again, looks my way, I will be ALL over him. And I might never unwrap my thighs from his face.
Rory:
At first, I liked Legolas. But it was shallow. He was cute. But not cute enough.
Aragorn grew on me, until he became my obsession. Viggo Mortensen grows that hair and beard again, looks my way, I will be ALL over him. And I might never unwrap my thighs from his face.
I believe it's a bit more complicated than that, since "sex" is a catch-all term for a broad range of behaviors.
LJ
That's as may be, lj; still i maintain, no matter the range of behaviors (the adjectives, in my formulation), the underlying motive (scratching that itch) is the same across cases...mebbe that's just me...
I believe it's a bit more complicated than that, since "sex" is a catch-all term for a broad range of behaviors.
LJ
That's as may be, lj; still i maintain, no matter the range of behaviors (the adjectives, in my formulation), the underlying motive (scratching that itch) is the same across cases...mebbe that's just me...
I just want to go on record as saying
that I think Judy Davis is the hottest
woman who ever lived.
I also want to add that I'm incredibly
proud to have dragged this serious
thread into the gutter.
I just want to go on record as saying
that I think Judy Davis is the hottest
woman who ever lived.
I also want to add that I'm incredibly
proud to have dragged this serious
thread into the gutter.
And I might never unwrap my thighs from his face.
Mercy! I wish you all the best with that. But I saw an interview with him clean-shaven and in a most unfortunate sweater, and the magic was gone. Legolas, meanwhile, is just hot, and was also hot and cute in Pirates of the Caribbean (with the hotter and cuter Johnny Depp).
And I might never unwrap my thighs from his face.
Mercy! I wish you all the best with that. But I saw an interview with him clean-shaven and in a most unfortunate sweater, and the magic was gone. Legolas, meanwhile, is just hot, and was also hot and cute in Pirates of the Caribbean (with the hotter and cuter Johnny Depp).
"That's what's on the canapé trays at ALL the hottest GOP parties this year."
Yeah and someone's going to take offense because I disbelieved in their educational accomplishments and then where will I be? An icebox stuffed with every kind of muffin, fruitcake, little pink cakes, cookies, tamale, posole, cheese sticks, smashed shrimp, burrito, mole' - and no one asking me to the party.
"That's what's on the canapé trays at ALL the hottest GOP parties this year."
Yeah and someone's going to take offense because I disbelieved in their educational accomplishments and then where will I be? An icebox stuffed with every kind of muffin, fruitcake, little pink cakes, cookies, tamale, posole, cheese sticks, smashed shrimp, burrito, mole' - and no one asking me to the party.
Cognitive dissonance, anyone?
rorschach
That's what's on the canapé trays at ALL the hottest GOP parties this year.
Now that is hilarious.
Cognitive dissonance, anyone?
rorschach
That's what's on the canapé trays at ALL the hottest GOP parties this year.
Now that is hilarious.
Oh, and to weigh in, NOTHING was sexier than Emma Thompson as The Angel in Angels in America.
If I had to choose between her and Justin Kirk, who played Prior Walter... I'd just go shopping for a bigger bed.
Oh, and to weigh in, NOTHING was sexier than Emma Thompson as The Angel in Angels in America.
If I had to choose between her and Justin Kirk, who played Prior Walter... I'd just go shopping for a bigger bed.
steve simels - Happy Christmas.
steve simels - Happy Christmas.
I just want to go on record as saying
that I think Judy Davis is the hottest
woman who ever lived.
I am utterly horrible with names, but I think this is the actress who plays the lover of the William Faulkner character in "Barton Fink." And if so, oh my God and hell yes. Extraordinarily sexy.
I just want to go on record as saying
that I think Judy Davis is the hottest
woman who ever lived.
I am utterly horrible with names, but I think this is the actress who plays the lover of the William Faulkner character in "Barton Fink." And if so, oh my God and hell yes. Extraordinarily sexy.
a most unfortunate sweater
Yeah, Viggo does kinda lack in the fashion sense department, most unusual for a Libra. Man, all the ones I ever knew were really spiffy dressers, no matter their income level. Always knew the right thing to wear, for any occasion. But I can fix that. Viggo just needs the LJ image consulation. "Grow the beard. Grow the hair. Wear leather. It's your look, baby."
And Orlando Bloom isn't quite so handsome to me most of the time, especially without that beautiful blonde wig. He's handsome enough. But not enough for me to put a thighlock on his face.
You say tomato...
a most unfortunate sweater
Yeah, Viggo does kinda lack in the fashion sense department, most unusual for a Libra. Man, all the ones I ever knew were really spiffy dressers, no matter their income level. Always knew the right thing to wear, for any occasion. But I can fix that. Viggo just needs the LJ image consulation. "Grow the beard. Grow the hair. Wear leather. It's your look, baby."
And Orlando Bloom isn't quite so handsome to me most of the time, especially without that beautiful blonde wig. He's handsome enough. But not enough for me to put a thighlock on his face.
You say tomato...
QL in NY:
What state was this that wanted hubby's consent in 1981? (please don't say NY...)
QL in NY:
What state was this that wanted hubby's consent in 1981? (please don't say NY...)
Johnny Depp has just never done it for me; I know I'm in the minority.
Johnny Depp has just never done it for me; I know I'm in the minority.
Johnny Depp has just never done it for me; I know I'm in the minority.
You are, quite frankly, mad. Not in the Special Ed sense, of course. But still...it is most unseemly...
Johnny Depp has just never done it for me; I know I'm in the minority.
You are, quite frankly, mad. Not in the Special Ed sense, of course. But still...it is most unseemly...
rorschach:
that's her indeed.
And she's an ex-rock and roller.
rorschach:
that's her indeed.
And she's an ex-rock and roller.
Yeah, maybe Selma, too.
Yeah, maybe Selma, too.
When I wanted my tubes tied in 1981, my gyno was gleeful that the law had just changed and I didn't need to get a permission slip from my husband. 19 fucking 81!
Hell, I went in to have mine tied in 1992 (CALIFORNIA), and the doctor argued with me not to have it all the way INTO THE OPERATING ROOM. He wanted my husband's permission! I was 30 years old, separated from Mr. LJ#2, and I needed that SOB's PERMISSION to have my tubes fucking tied?
And do you want to know the sicko, lame argument this doctor tried to use with me, after I explained my medical history, after I explained that I could not, would not, go through yet another miscarriage, that I was still amazed I'd had my one child?
"Well, what if your child dies?"
I was so fucking furious I told him that only a man would be so goddamned stupid as to ask a woman a question like that. I already knew what it was like to have a child die, first of all. I'd been through it four goddamned times, but even if I hadn't, what a sick question!
Only a man would even THINK that kids were something you just got a replacement for if something happened to 'em, like getting another Caddillac if yours was destroyed. Only a man would be so stupid as to think that another child could ever EVER replace the LJ spawn in my heart. I would die every day if anything ever happened to him, and that bastard asked me a question like that, as if it were a VALID way to make me reconsider not seeking sterilization?
FUCKING FUCKERS!
And I told him to take it back, that that was like hexing my beautiful child.
When I wanted my tubes tied in 1981, my gyno was gleeful that the law had just changed and I didn't need to get a permission slip from my husband. 19 fucking 81!
Hell, I went in to have mine tied in 1992 (CALIFORNIA), and the doctor argued with me not to have it all the way INTO THE OPERATING ROOM. He wanted my husband's permission! I was 30 years old, separated from Mr. LJ#2, and I needed that SOB's PERMISSION to have my tubes fucking tied?
And do you want to know the sicko, lame argument this doctor tried to use with me, after I explained my medical history, after I explained that I could not, would not, go through yet another miscarriage, that I was still amazed I'd had my one child?
"Well, what if your child dies?"
I was so fucking furious I told him that only a man would be so goddamned stupid as to ask a woman a question like that. I already knew what it was like to have a child die, first of all. I'd been through it four goddamned times, but even if I hadn't, what a sick question!
Only a man would even THINK that kids were something you just got a replacement for if something happened to 'em, like getting another Caddillac if yours was destroyed. Only a man would be so stupid as to think that another child could ever EVER replace the LJ spawn in my heart. I would die every day if anything ever happened to him, and that bastard asked me a question like that, as if it were a VALID way to make me reconsider not seeking sterilization?
FUCKING FUCKERS!
And I told him to take it back, that that was like hexing my beautiful child.
Terry Gilliam, talking about Kim (Pam?) Griest in Brazil, who was playing this sort of dyke trucker knock your teeth out suspected terrorist, put her in boots, very short hair, brown scruffy bomber jacket, blue 1984 coveralls, and "make-up" facial dirt and noted that the more masculine he tried to make her the hotter she got. She later played this very feminine (and largely absent) character in Manhunter (this was before her dropping off the face of the Earth), so you could compare that.
Terry Gilliam, talking about Kim (Pam?) Griest in Brazil, who was playing this sort of dyke trucker knock your teeth out suspected terrorist, put her in boots, very short hair, brown scruffy bomber jacket, blue 1984 coveralls, and "make-up" facial dirt and noted that the more masculine he tried to make her the hotter she got. She later played this very feminine (and largely absent) character in Manhunter (this was before her dropping off the face of the Earth), so you could compare that.
I am of a somewhat different generation, apparently. For me the sexiest woman on earth in her time was Cyd Charisse; after her, chronologically, at least, Isabelle Huppert; Faye Dunaway as Bonnie Parker could have led me cheerfully into the maw of death;
I think the reason Johnny Depp's thought universally hot may be that he exudes such an attractively ambiguous sexuality--he just twinkles...and not in a bad way
I am of a somewhat different generation, apparently. For me the sexiest woman on earth in her time was Cyd Charisse; after her, chronologically, at least, Isabelle Huppert; Faye Dunaway as Bonnie Parker could have led me cheerfully into the maw of death;
I think the reason Johnny Depp's thought universally hot may be that he exudes such an attractively ambiguous sexuality--he just twinkles...and not in a bad way
And do you want to know the sicko, lame argument this doctor tried to use with me, after I explained my medical history, after I explained that I could not, would not, go through yet another miscarriage, that I was still amazed I'd had my one child?
"Well, what if your child dies?"
Fuck him.
Rest assured that he lives or lived the miserable life that's due him.
And do you want to know the sicko, lame argument this doctor tried to use with me, after I explained my medical history, after I explained that I could not, would not, go through yet another miscarriage, that I was still amazed I'd had my one child?
"Well, what if your child dies?"
Fuck him.
Rest assured that he lives or lived the miserable life that's due him.
"When I wanted my tubes tied in 1981, my gyno was gleeful that the law had just changed and I didn't need to get a permission slip from my husband.
19 fucking 81!"
Yeah......ya like that shit?
Like they fucking OWNED us!
"When I wanted my tubes tied in 1981, my gyno was gleeful that the law had just changed and I didn't need to get a permission slip from my husband.
19 fucking 81!"
Yeah......ya like that shit?
Like they fucking OWNED us!
Cyd Charisse - yes.
Capuchine. Heartbreaking. Funny.
Cyd Charisse - yes.
Capuchine. Heartbreaking. Funny.
steve simels - O my god - I love Judy Davis. I just love her. Great pick.
LJ - My thing about Viggo is that I love him as Aragorn, and that's it. Same way with Daniel Day-Lewis - I would do anything for him as Hawkeye. Otherwise, not so much.
Johnny Depp, on the other hand - he can do no wrong. In character or not, he is just unbelievably sexy.
steve simels - O my god - I love Judy Davis. I just love her. Great pick.
LJ - My thing about Viggo is that I love him as Aragorn, and that's it. Same way with Daniel Day-Lewis - I would do anything for him as Hawkeye. Otherwise, not so much.
Johnny Depp, on the other hand - he can do no wrong. In character or not, he is just unbelievably sexy.
Now, ask yourself if any doctor would require a permission slip from a man's wife before giving the man a vasectomy?
Now, ask yourself if any doctor would require a permission slip from a man's wife before giving the man a vasectomy?
"You read about this stuff. It blows you away when it's here. This stuff is supposed to happen in New York City and Los Angeles."
Some dumb bitch in Melvern, Kansas, where psycho Lisa Montgomery murdered Bobbie Jo Stenett and took her 8-months-along fetus out of her.
Oh, yeah - cuz we all know them there blue state libruls have horns and tails and they eat unborn babies.
Stupid, ignorant c**t.
"You read about this stuff. It blows you away when it's here. This stuff is supposed to happen in New York City and Los Angeles."
Some dumb bitch in Melvern, Kansas, where psycho Lisa Montgomery murdered Bobbie Jo Stenett and took her 8-months-along fetus out of her.
Oh, yeah - cuz we all know them there blue state libruls have horns and tails and they eat unborn babies.
Stupid, ignorant c**t.
Daniel Day-Lewis - I would do anything for him as Hawkeye. Otherwise, not so much.
Urgh. That movie is so racist. But him in In the Name of the Father.
That, I can get behind.
Daniel Day-Lewis - I would do anything for him as Hawkeye. Otherwise, not so much.
Urgh. That movie is so racist. But him in In the Name of the Father.
That, I can get behind.
Hell, DDL in ANYTHING. My God, the fantasies I've had about him ever since I first saw him...
You can be behind him, Rory. I'll take the front view, thanks.
Hell, DDL in ANYTHING. My God, the fantasies I've had about him ever since I first saw him...
You can be behind him, Rory. I'll take the front view, thanks.
You can be behind him, Rory. I'll take the front view, thanks.
Deal.
You can be behind him, Rory. I'll take the front view, thanks.
Deal.
rorschach - Oh shit - I wasn't attracted to the moral values of the movie - it was Daniel with that hair, those tattoos, that body and that attitude. He was stunning.
I've always been deeply attracted to Sam Shepard, too. I think he is aging well, though I've read interview in which he disagrees with that assessment. I think he's wonderful looking, very sexy and I love the man's mind.
rorschach - Oh shit - I wasn't attracted to the moral values of the movie - it was Daniel with that hair, those tattoos, that body and that attitude. He was stunning.
I've always been deeply attracted to Sam Shepard, too. I think he is aging well, though I've read interview in which he disagrees with that assessment. I think he's wonderful looking, very sexy and I love the man's mind.
"You read about this stuff. It blows you away when it's here. This stuff is supposed to happen in New York City and Los Angeles."
Some dumb bitch in Melvern, Kansas, where psycho Lisa Montgomery murdered Bobbie Jo Stenett and took her 8-months-along fetus out of her.
Oh, yeah - cuz we all know them there blue state libruls have horns and tails and they eat unborn babies.
Stupid, ignorant c**t.
"You read about this stuff. It blows you away when it's here. This stuff is supposed to happen in New York City and Los Angeles."
Some dumb bitch in Melvern, Kansas, where psycho Lisa Montgomery murdered Bobbie Jo Stenett and took her 8-months-along fetus out of her.
Oh, yeah - cuz we all know them there blue state libruls have horns and tails and they eat unborn babies.
Stupid, ignorant c**t.
Ann Coulter probably fits that description; if she had a dick, she'd wag it in our faces
What do you mean "if"?
.
Ann Coulter probably fits that description; if she had a dick, she'd wag it in our faces
What do you mean "if"?
.
Orlando Bloom is pretty. But he's almost too pretty. He doesn't have Johnny Depp's animal magnetism to offset his looks.
I like him, but not that way.
Orlando Bloom is pretty. But he's almost too pretty. He doesn't have Johnny Depp's animal magnetism to offset his looks.
I like him, but not that way.
Terry C - Exactly like they owned us. Like they own our insides. I DON'T FUCKING THINK SO.
Terry C - Exactly like they owned us. Like they own our insides. I DON'T FUCKING THINK SO.
Yeah......ya like that shit?
Like they fucking OWNED us!
1992, folks. I had to have my husband's permission to get a frickin' tubal ligation! Yes, the hospital DID call my husband. He had no idea I was contemplating it, but he answered, "Christ, you're just asking her to sue your sorry assses, aren't you?"
Yeah......ya like that shit?
Like they fucking OWNED us!
1992, folks. I had to have my husband's permission to get a frickin' tubal ligation! Yes, the hospital DID call my husband. He had no idea I was contemplating it, but he answered, "Christ, you're just asking her to sue your sorry assses, aren't you?"
Tena--I've always had mixed feelings about Sam Shepard. Some genius, I think, mixed with much ego. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it never quite sparked me...
Tena--I've always had mixed feelings about Sam Shepard. Some genius, I think, mixed with much ego. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it never quite sparked me...
Grey:
She's a eunuch. It explains the anger. Think about it.
Grey:
She's a eunuch. It explains the anger. Think about it.
Christ, you're just asking her to sue your sorry assses, aren't you?"
Good for Mr. LJ!
Christ, you're just asking her to sue your sorry assses, aren't you?"
Good for Mr. LJ!
Too many posts to read to catch up. Just found this on topic from the Boston Globe.
Leading Democrats, stung by election losses, are signaling they want the party to embrace antiabortion voters and candidates, softening the image of the party from one fiercely defensive of abortion rights to one that acknowledges the moral and religious qualms some Americans have about the issue.
House minority leader Nancy Pelosi, a California Democrat who is one of the most ardent supporters of abortion rights in Congress, has encouraged Tim Roemer, a former representative with a strong voting record against abortion, to run for the chairmanship of the Democratic National Committee.
"We're very encouraged. I think people are starting to wake up and say we can't alienate this whole wing of our party," she said. The group points to a Zogby poll indicating 43 percent of Democrats surveyed said they think abortion is manslaughter, a finding Day said shows the Democratic party leadership is out of synch with its members.
Too many posts to read to catch up. Just found this on topic from the Boston Globe.
Leading Democrats, stung by election losses, are signaling they want the party to embrace antiabortion voters and candidates, softening the image of the party from one fiercely defensive of abortion rights to one that acknowledges the moral and religious qualms some Americans have about the issue.
House minority leader Nancy Pelosi, a California Democrat who is one of the most ardent supporters of abortion rights in Congress, has encouraged Tim Roemer, a former representative with a strong voting record against abortion, to run for the chairmanship of the Democratic National Committee.
"We're very encouraged. I think people are starting to wake up and say we can't alienate this whole wing of our party," she said. The group points to a Zogby poll indicating 43 percent of Democrats surveyed said they think abortion is manslaughter, a finding Day said shows the Democratic party leadership is out of synch with its members.
You can be behind him, Rory. I'll take the front view, thanks.
Deal.
Now we're talking!
You can be behind him, Rory. I'll take the front view, thanks.
Deal.
Now we're talking!
Next time she's advocating murder and torture somebody should ask her to sing a few bars. She won't get it and the damage will be done.
Next time she's advocating murder and torture somebody should ask her to sing a few bars. She won't get it and the damage will be done.
Leading Democrats, stung by election losses, are signaling they want the party to embrace antiabortion voters and candidates, softening the image of the party from one fiercely defensive of abortion rights to one that acknowledges the moral and religious qualms some Americans have about the issue.
Oh good grief. Folks, here it comes. Greens, here I come.
Family's been with the Democratic Party since Jefferson, growing and changing with it, but I will be out of this fucking party if they cave to this bullshit.
Leading Democrats, stung by election losses, are signaling they want the party to embrace antiabortion voters and candidates, softening the image of the party from one fiercely defensive of abortion rights to one that acknowledges the moral and religious qualms some Americans have about the issue.
Oh good grief. Folks, here it comes. Greens, here I come.
Family's been with the Democratic Party since Jefferson, growing and changing with it, but I will be out of this fucking party if they cave to this bullshit.
steve simels - Happy Christmas.
GWPDA | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 5:22 pm | #
Thank you. Right back at ya.
steve simels - Happy Christmas.
GWPDA | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 5:22 pm | #
Thank you. Right back at ya.
Speaking of Cyd Charisse (and isn't
that the greatest woman's name ever?)
Turner Classic Movies is running some
promo this month with a brief flash
of her and it makes me weak in the
knees. Lordy, those legs!!!!
Speaking of Cyd Charisse (and isn't
that the greatest woman's name ever?)
Turner Classic Movies is running some
promo this month with a brief flash
of her and it makes me weak in the
knees. Lordy, those legs!!!!
Truly, an extra-ordinary Gift, is Cyd. Amarillo's finest.
Truly, an extra-ordinary Gift, is Cyd. Amarillo's finest.
Terry C - Exactly like they owned us. Like they own our insides. I DON'T FUCKING THINK SO.
Tena
And they'll drag us back to those times over MY dead body!
Terry C - Exactly like they owned us. Like they own our insides. I DON'T FUCKING THINK SO.
Tena
And they'll drag us back to those times over MY dead body!
This thread is so long, every time I get through reading the posts that "were" and refresh to make a comment, I have to read through 15 more.
If you don't want an abortion, don't have one.
An aside,
If men had periods, tampons would be free.
This thread is so long, every time I get through reading the posts that "were" and refresh to make a comment, I have to read through 15 more.
If you don't want an abortion, don't have one.
An aside,
If men had periods, tampons would be free.
I was in my gyno's last week.
A gal was sitting there talking about getting a tubal ligation.
Her mother said "You're too young and you only have ONE child!"
I wanted to say "What the hell do either have to do with it? It's HER body!"
I was in my gyno's last week.
A gal was sitting there talking about getting a tubal ligation.
Her mother said "You're too young and you only have ONE child!"
I wanted to say "What the hell do either have to do with it? It's HER body!"
If men had periods, there would be a monthly week off from work.
If men had periods, there would be a monthly week off from work.
The group points to a Zogby poll indicating 43 percent of Democrats surveyed said they think abortion is manslaughter, a finding Day said shows the Democratic party leadership is out of synch with its members.
Abortion of what? I'm really beginning to hate that word, abortion.
The group points to a Zogby poll indicating 43 percent of Democrats surveyed said they think abortion is manslaughter, a finding Day said shows the Democratic party leadership is out of synch with its members.
Abortion of what? I'm really beginning to hate that word, abortion.
And if men got pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.
I think Germaine Greer said that.
And if men got pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.
I think Germaine Greer said that.
"Well, you know what? I refuse to be dragged into this stupid, asinine battle between two groups with unreasonable positions. If this means I'm unwelcome in the Democratic party, well then I will happily go join a party that takes a position that reflects reality."
Oh, wanting women have control over their own reproductive systems is an "unreasonable position"
Keep off the Kool-Aid!
"Well, you know what? I refuse to be dragged into this stupid, asinine battle between two groups with unreasonable positions. If this means I'm unwelcome in the Democratic party, well then I will happily go join a party that takes a position that reflects reality."
Oh, wanting women have control over their own reproductive systems is an "unreasonable position"
Keep off the Kool-Aid!
"The group points to a Zogby poll indicating 43 percent of Democrats surveyed said they think abortion is manslaughter"
Who the hell are they polling?????
A meeting of the Knights of Columbus?
"The group points to a Zogby poll indicating 43 percent of Democrats surveyed said they think abortion is manslaughter"
Who the hell are they polling?????
A meeting of the Knights of Columbus?
So you're pro-life?
Good....now GET one and stay OUT of other people's!
So you're pro-life?
Good....now GET one and stay OUT of other people's!
Oh good grief. Folks, here it comes. Greens, here I come.
Seriously, at what point does it become our obligation to abandon the Democratic party?
For years people have been telling us to stay and try to change the party, but if this rightward drift on abortion and other issues is more than just rhetoric, at what point do we say, Enough's enough?
The Dem. party has never bent over backwards to please progressives, but it almost seems like now they are trying to piss us off. What the hell are we supposed to do?
.
Oh good grief. Folks, here it comes. Greens, here I come.
Seriously, at what point does it become our obligation to abandon the Democratic party?
For years people have been telling us to stay and try to change the party, but if this rightward drift on abortion and other issues is more than just rhetoric, at what point do we say, Enough's enough?
The Dem. party has never bent over backwards to please progressives, but it almost seems like now they are trying to piss us off. What the hell are we supposed to do?
.
I think Germaine Greer said that.
Hecate | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 6:33 pm | #
Yes! Thank you. It's been driving me
crazy.
I think Germaine Greer said that.
Hecate | Email | Homepage | 12.19.04 - 6:33 pm | #
Yes! Thank you. It's been driving me
crazy.
Grey:
We hunker down and hope that something of the Constitution holds together long enough for us to build a truly liberal party in this country.
We're talking 10, 20 years of work. We have to infiltrate from the bottom up, just like the Christian Coalition did. There is absolutely ZERO reason for the Democratic party not to have a candidate running in every fucking election in America. Dog catcher, school board, precinct chairman--you name it, the party, big and powerful and RICH as it is, ought to have a candidate in there, siphoning off money from the top races of the Repub ticket and keep them from building candidates for the future.
Grey:
We hunker down and hope that something of the Constitution holds together long enough for us to build a truly liberal party in this country.
We're talking 10, 20 years of work. We have to infiltrate from the bottom up, just like the Christian Coalition did. There is absolutely ZERO reason for the Democratic party not to have a candidate running in every fucking election in America. Dog catcher, school board, precinct chairman--you name it, the party, big and powerful and RICH as it is, ought to have a candidate in there, siphoning off money from the top races of the Repub ticket and keep them from building candidates for the future.
Ah, Zogby whose electoral polls were so obviously flawed? Who was so incapable of understanding that sometimes people just lied to pollsters? That Zogby?
Games, games. Hecate, you got everything ready for to-morrow? Grace a Dieu, it seems to me every year getting to this day takes longer - those of us near the equator don't do well with these long nights of the soul (or long knives, either one). Maybe I'll build a nice fire tonight to keep out the de'il.
Tena, the party was nice? I always love day afters, the icebox filled with unexpected little dabs of treats. The good silver and china still out.
Ah, Zogby whose electoral polls were so obviously flawed? Who was so incapable of understanding that sometimes people just lied to pollsters? That Zogby?
Games, games. Hecate, you got everything ready for to-morrow? Grace a Dieu, it seems to me every year getting to this day takes longer - those of us near the equator don't do well with these long nights of the soul (or long knives, either one). Maybe I'll build a nice fire tonight to keep out the de'il.
Tena, the party was nice? I always love day afters, the icebox filled with unexpected little dabs of treats. The good silver and china still out.
Oh--and abortion is my issue, since it ties into so many other important issues, like women's rights and privacy, etc. If the party rolls over on abortion, I'm through with it. I will not compromise on this one. Ever.
Oh--and abortion is my issue, since it ties into so many other important issues, like women's rights and privacy, etc. If the party rolls over on abortion, I'm through with it. I will not compromise on this one. Ever.
GWPDA,
Winter Solstice is Tuesday this year. I'm almost ready for Tuesday evening. Build a big warm fire and go out at sunrise and make noise to wake the sun back up. Helps to feed the birds then, too, because they'll chirp all morning and keep the sun from going back to sleep. And maybe Arthur could bark some, too.
GWPDA,
Winter Solstice is Tuesday this year. I'm almost ready for Tuesday evening. Build a big warm fire and go out at sunrise and make noise to wake the sun back up. Helps to feed the birds then, too, because they'll chirp all morning and keep the sun from going back to sleep. And maybe Arthur could bark some, too.
Robert Novak is claiming that many "top Democrats" tell him privately that they are scared to death of Dean as DNC chair, preferring a more "pragmatic" choice. And Bob Kerrey has apparently said that a Dean chairmanship would be "disastrous" (again acc. to Novak).
This is reason enough for me to hope that Dean gets it.
If Bob Novak says that something would be bad for the Democratic party, then it's probably a good idea. Same goes for all on the Right. Do Kevin Drum, Amy Sullivan, Peter Beinart, et al ever stop to wonder why the "advice" that Republicans give the Democrats so closely resembles their own?
.
Robert Novak is claiming that many "top Democrats" tell him privately that they are scared to death of Dean as DNC chair, preferring a more "pragmatic" choice. And Bob Kerrey has apparently said that a Dean chairmanship would be "disastrous" (again acc. to Novak).
This is reason enough for me to hope that Dean gets it.
If Bob Novak says that something would be bad for the Democratic party, then it's probably a good idea. Same goes for all on the Right. Do Kevin Drum, Amy Sullivan, Peter Beinart, et al ever stop to wonder why the "advice" that Republicans give the Democrats so closely resembles their own?
.
If Bob Novak says that something would be bad for the Democratic party, then it's probably a good idea
Amen to that.
If Bob Novak says that something would be bad for the Democratic party, then it's probably a good idea
Amen to that.
GWPDA - The party was one of the best of the series. It really was nice. I had done almost everything on Friday, so I didn't have much to do on Saturday - and that was great. The meal came together and was really good. And I wore probably the hottest outfit I've ever owned. My feet are not happy with me today. But it was worth it.
It was all around wonderful, because starting yesterday, my mother in law began improving really well. Friday was a bad day and we were all worried. But it turned around on Saturday. So we really were in the mood for a party.
GWPDA - The party was one of the best of the series. It really was nice. I had done almost everything on Friday, so I didn't have much to do on Saturday - and that was great. The meal came together and was really good. And I wore probably the hottest outfit I've ever owned. My feet are not happy with me today. But it was worth it.
It was all around wonderful, because starting yesterday, my mother in law began improving really well. Friday was a bad day and we were all worried. But it turned around on Saturday. So we really were in the mood for a party.
"improving really well"? That is one of the most incredibly lame things I have ever written down. Jebus - maybe the trolls have an adverse affect on our grammar. Yeah, that's it...
"improving really well"? That is one of the most incredibly lame things I have ever written down. Jebus - maybe the trolls have an adverse affect on our grammar. Yeah, that's it...
Tuesday, of course. I lose track easily. But what you describe pretty much is my morning routine. I get up, trip over Arthur, start the coffee, go outside, Arthur wakes up the Inca doves who get very coo'ey, we bark at the day til it gets light, drink coffee and make fun of the newspaper.... Our personal responsibility has been to make sure that Mercury, Venus and Mars make it thru til dawn. Everyone has responsibility for something these days.
Tuesday, of course. I lose track easily. But what you describe pretty much is my morning routine. I get up, trip over Arthur, start the coffee, go outside, Arthur wakes up the Inca doves who get very coo'ey, we bark at the day til it gets light, drink coffee and make fun of the newspaper.... Our personal responsibility has been to make sure that Mercury, Venus and Mars make it thru til dawn. Everyone has responsibility for something these days.
Tena,
Good news about your m-i-l. Hope she continues to recover.
Tena,
Good news about your m-i-l. Hope she continues to recover.
Same goes for all on the Right. Do Kevin Drum, Amy Sullivan, Peter Beinart, et al ever stop to wonder why the "advice" that Republicans give the Democrats so closely resembles their own?
Why do you think I'm on the Hillary thread reminding people that the Republicans are just "so sure" that we'll put HRC on a national ticket?
They WANT her there. THEY NEED HER THERE. They have the strategy for kicking Dem ass to kingdom come with her there.
Anything they think WE need to do, just do the opposite.
Same goes for all on the Right. Do Kevin Drum, Amy Sullivan, Peter Beinart, et al ever stop to wonder why the "advice" that Republicans give the Democrats so closely resembles their own?
Why do you think I'm on the Hillary thread reminding people that the Republicans are just "so sure" that we'll put HRC on a national ticket?
They WANT her there. THEY NEED HER THERE. They have the strategy for kicking Dem ass to kingdom come with her there.
Anything they think WE need to do, just do the opposite.
Tena - you're quite correct tho. In the hospital, one can be improving, improving well, improving really well... It's good. Have they determined the cause?
My people went thru TIA rather a lot - it was interesting, but not the same as a stroke-stroke. Still, I'll never forget doing a fifty year comparative of the Australian sheep trade at the kitchen table whilst ever twenty minutes or so checking on the progress of a TIA. I'm pretty sure my analysis on both fronts was correct tho. Don't ever try to out-argue me about sheep crutches tho.
Tena - you're quite correct tho. In the hospital, one can be improving, improving well, improving really well... It's good. Have they determined the cause?
My people went thru TIA rather a lot - it was interesting, but not the same as a stroke-stroke. Still, I'll never forget doing a fifty year comparative of the Australian sheep trade at the kitchen table whilst ever twenty minutes or so checking on the progress of a TIA. I'm pretty sure my analysis on both fronts was correct tho. Don't ever try to out-argue me about sheep crutches tho.
If Bob Novak says that something would be bad for the Democratic party, then it's probably a good idea. Same goes for all on the Right. Do Kevin Drum, Amy Sullivan, Peter Beinart, et al ever stop to wonder why the "advice" that Republicans give the Democrats so closely resembles their own?
Sullivan said:
No one is suggesting that the Democratic Party change its platform or abandon the pro-choice cause or become, as one congresswoman mischaracterized Kerry's advice, "fake Republicans." That would be stupid and, even worse, wrong.
She also said:
I'm not saying Democrats should back down from protecting girls in extraordinary circumstances who need to get abortions on their own. But they don't need to frame the argument in a way that implies that those who disagree with them are stone-age misogynists.
Sullivan is talking about framing and compassion, not being more Republican. Lakoff has two principles for reframing – use an alternate frame AND be respectful in your response. Dean is a follower of framing-meister Lakoff. Dean is about reform, and so is Sullivan.
Novak is talking about ‘pragmatic choices’ (whatever the heck that is). Why anyone would listen to anything he has to say regarding what we Dems should do is frankly beyond me.
Clinton introduced ‘safe, legal and rare.’ Saying you want it to be rare means you want fewer of them, because they’re certainly not rare right now. Are we abandoning this ideal? So now when someone brings up the issue of how to make abortion more rare - and by framing the issue in this way opening dialogue with other moderates – she is lambasted as a fundie and secret GOP agent. It’s ridiculous. It lacks compassion for people struggling in the middle ground of this moral question, and yes, it is a moral question. Compassion used to be one of the hallmarks of being a Democrat, according to Lakoff. Acknowledging the importance of this issue (the high number of unwanted pregnancies in this country) and outlining how Democratic policies respond better to this issue is compassionate, and respects our ideals as Democrats.
If Bob Novak says that something would be bad for the Democratic party, then it's probably a good idea. Same goes for all on the Right. Do Kevin Drum, Amy Sullivan, Peter Beinart, et al ever stop to wonder why the "advice" that Republicans give the Democrats so closely resembles their own?
Sullivan said:
No one is suggesting that the Democratic Party change its platform or abandon the pro-choice cause or become, as one congresswoman mischaracterized Kerry's advice, "fake Republicans." That would be stupid and, even worse, wrong.
She also said:
I'm not saying Democrats should back down from protecting girls in extraordinary circumstances who need to get abortions on their own. But they don't need to frame the argument in a way that implies that those who disagree with them are stone-age misogynists.
Sullivan is talking about framing and compassion, not being more Republican. Lakoff has two principles for reframing – use an alternate frame AND be respectful in your response. Dean is a follower of framing-meister Lakoff. Dean is about reform, and so is Sullivan.
Novak is talking about ‘pragmatic choices’ (whatever the heck that is). Why anyone would listen to anything he has to say regarding what we Dems should do is frankly beyond me.
Clinton introduced ‘safe, legal and rare.’ Saying you want it to be rare means you want fewer of them, because they’re certainly not rare right now. Are we abandoning this ideal? So now when someone brings up the issue of how to make abortion more rare - and by framing the issue in this way opening dialogue with other moderates – she is lambasted as a fundie and secret GOP agent. It’s ridiculous. It lacks compassion for people struggling in the middle ground of this moral question, and yes, it is a moral question. Compassion used to be one of the hallmarks of being a Democrat, according to Lakoff. Acknowledging the importance of this issue (the high number of unwanted pregnancies in this country) and outlining how Democratic policies respond better to this issue is compassionate, and respects our ideals as Democrats.
Raisin, look dammit. The Democratic party is a pro-choice party. We are pro-choice because abortion is a reproductive health issue. Anti-choice Democrats should deal with this reality. Anyone who feels strongly that the destruction of fertilized eggs is immoral can pursue their agenda in myriad non-party contexts, such as volunteering with Planned Parenthood, mentoring teenagers, or campaigning for advances in medical science, particularly further advances in pre-fertilization birth control. The GOP is dead wrong in its attempt to exert control over women's reproduction. Democrats are not going to follow them over the cliff.
Raisin, look dammit. The Democratic party is a pro-choice party. We are pro-choice because abortion is a reproductive health issue. Anti-choice Democrats should deal with this reality. Anyone who feels strongly that the destruction of fertilized eggs is immoral can pursue their agenda in myriad non-party contexts, such as volunteering with Planned Parenthood, mentoring teenagers, or campaigning for advances in medical science, particularly further advances in pre-fertilization birth control. The GOP is dead wrong in its attempt to exert control over women's reproduction. Democrats are not going to follow them over the cliff.
So now when someone brings up the issue of how to make abortion more rare - and by framing the issue in this way opening dialogue with other moderates – she is lambasted as a fundie and secret GOP agent. It’s ridiculous. It lacks compassion for people struggling in the middle ground of this moral question,
The fundamental flaw in all this is that by focusing on how abortion should be "rare", we just reinforce the notion that there is something wrong with abortion, that it is something to be ashamed of and should only be resorted to in "extraordinary circumstances". That doesn't sound like pro-choice to me; that sounds like dictating the terms of someone else's reproductive rights.
The reason Sullivan and co. are lambasted as "fundies" and GOP moles is because (a) they are, in effect, urging us to be more like Republicans, whether they admit it or not; they discourage us from standing proud as supporters of abortion rights; and (b) they have fucking destroyed the party. The Dem. party is on the verge of an outright rebellion from its progressive wing, and frankly the party cannot survive any more of the 'advice' of Sullivan and her friends.
We aren't "compassionate" to Sullivan because we've heard her bullshit before and we are tired of being told that we, and not the Republican-pleasing capitulators, are the reason why the party is in such bad shape.
.
So now when someone brings up the issue of how to make abortion more rare - and by framing the issue in this way opening dialogue with other moderates – she is lambasted as a fundie and secret GOP agent. It’s ridiculous. It lacks compassion for people struggling in the middle ground of this moral question,
The fundamental flaw in all this is that by focusing on how abortion should be "rare", we just reinforce the notion that there is something wrong with abortion, that it is something to be ashamed of and should only be resorted to in "extraordinary circumstances". That doesn't sound like pro-choice to me; that sounds like dictating the terms of someone else's reproductive rights.
The reason Sullivan and co. are lambasted as "fundies" and GOP moles is because (a) they are, in effect, urging us to be more like Republicans, whether they admit it or not; they discourage us from standing proud as supporters of abortion rights; and (b) they have fucking destroyed the party. The Dem. party is on the verge of an outright rebellion from its progressive wing, and frankly the party cannot survive any more of the 'advice' of Sullivan and her friends.
We aren't "compassionate" to Sullivan because we've heard her bullshit before and we are tired of being told that we, and not the Republican-pleasing capitulators, are the reason why the party is in such bad shape.
.
So, raisin, how do you stop the unwanted pregnancies?
By rare, Clinton meant a solution that people rarely had to rely on. He's right. But it's an IDEAL. Reality has something different to say.
They would be truly rare if people had certain things:
1) Adequate access to effective birth control. But birth control fails, and not everyone can use every method. Hm. Strikeout there.
2) If everyone felt reasonably certain that they wouldn't have to worry about losing their job or how they would otherwise support themselves and a child if they had said child (Adequate access to food, shelter, clothing, and etc). Hm. That's probably doesn't have any panaceas in the near future, either.
3) If no woman was ever raped again. Possible, but only if we cut off all men's dicks and harvested their testicles for sperm as we needed children. Me, I'm a flaming hetero. I'd miss dicks. A lot.
4) If no woman ever had to live in an abusive relationship again. Which is another never gonna happen.
Until we can fix all of these things, abortion will be a reality. Legal or not. Take your pick. You can have abortions as they are now. Or you can have this. You tell me which one seems more humane.
So, raisin, how do you stop the unwanted pregnancies?
By rare, Clinton meant a solution that people rarely had to rely on. He's right. But it's an IDEAL. Reality has something different to say.
They would be truly rare if people had certain things:
1) Adequate access to effective birth control. But birth control fails, and not everyone can use every method. Hm. Strikeout there.
2) If everyone felt reasonably certain that they wouldn't have to worry about losing their job or how they would otherwise support themselves and a child if they had said child (Adequate access to food, shelter, clothing, and etc). Hm. That's probably doesn't have any panaceas in the near future, either.
3) If no woman was ever raped again. Possible, but only if we cut off all men's dicks and harvested their testicles for sperm as we needed children. Me, I'm a flaming hetero. I'd miss dicks. A lot.
4) If no woman ever had to live in an abusive relationship again. Which is another never gonna happen.
Until we can fix all of these things, abortion will be a reality. Legal or not. Take your pick. You can have abortions as they are now. Or you can have this. You tell me which one seems more humane.
Well, since 2/3 of all women who have abortions state financial reasons as the primary factor, economic policies that support women, provide a living wage, and offer tangible support for family leave are important in preventing unwanted pregnancies. These policies and programs were cut under Bush, and the number of abortions increased.
Easy availability of contraception has been demonstrated to reduce unwanted pregnancy in other countries. Criminalizing abortion does not.
This is not an anti-abortion position. Gloria Feldt said "Putting prevention [of unwanted pregnancies] first is a great vehicle to force the discussion. It will bring the conservative Democrats and many moderates together, and it will make the extreme right look as extreme as it is." She's talking about reducing unwanted pregnancy. Is Feldt an extremist? Is she gunning to make Democratic abortion policies more Republican?
Again, this is about reframing, and responding with compassion. I reject the argument that expressing concerns about the high rate of unwanted pregnancy in this country is part of a slippery slope. It's a public health issue, and a community issue. Contraception is always preferable to unwanted pregnancy. Living wages that allow people to raise families are always preferable to unwanted pregnancy.
The Democratic position is safe, legal and rare.
Well, since 2/3 of all women who have abortions state financial reasons as the primary factor, economic policies that support women, provide a living wage, and offer tangible support for family leave are important in preventing unwanted pregnancies. These policies and programs were cut under Bush, and the number of abortions increased.
Easy availability of contraception has been demonstrated to reduce unwanted pregnancy in other countries. Criminalizing abortion does not.
This is not an anti-abortion position. Gloria Feldt said "Putting prevention [of unwanted pregnancies] first is a great vehicle to force the discussion. It will bring the conservative Democrats and many moderates together, and it will make the extreme right look as extreme as it is." She's talking about reducing unwanted pregnancy. Is Feldt an extremist? Is she gunning to make Democratic abortion policies more Republican?
Again, this is about reframing, and responding with compassion. I reject the argument that expressing concerns about the high rate of unwanted pregnancy in this country is part of a slippery slope. It's a public health issue, and a community issue. Contraception is always preferable to unwanted pregnancy. Living wages that allow people to raise families are always preferable to unwanted pregnancy.
The Democratic position is safe, legal and rare.
You and Mrs. Atrios need to have you a couple of kids, methinks. I used to be one of those "damn screaming kids" people - upset that someone else's child in mid-tantrum might deflate the foam on their latte or ruin the afterglow from their accupressure session or whatever. But after having children of my own, I can tell you that there is no more soothing sound in the world than the sound of SOMEONE ELSE'S children melting down. You can listen, stretch, relax, and think "I don't have to deal with that at all!"
Perspective is all, Atrios.
You and Mrs. Atrios need to have you a couple of kids, methinks. I used to be one of those "damn screaming kids" people - upset that someone else's child in mid-tantrum might deflate the foam on their latte or ruin the afterglow from their accupressure session or whatever. But after having children of my own, I can tell you that there is no more soothing sound in the world than the sound of SOMEONE ELSE'S children melting down. You can listen, stretch, relax, and think "I don't have to deal with that at all!"
Perspective is all, Atrios.
Raisin:
We on the choice side already ARE saying those things. Your point?
Raisin:
We on the choice side already ARE saying those things. Your point?
Democrats don’t (at least nowadays) consistently link the issue of unwanted pregnancy to the broader issue of social supports and social rights, perhaps because the GOP has pushed us back onto a defensive position. We’re so busy protecting the basic right of a woman to choose we have stopped talking about how our broader social agenda actually reduces unwanted pregnancy.
When Kerry said he’d offer tax credits for stay-at-home parents of infants, he didn’t mention this. He never mentioned a link between access to contraception and unwanted pregnancy, or a link to economic justice and abortion rates. He never mentioned reducing unwanted pregnancy as far as I know, and I followed him on this issue pretty closely.
If we don’t link the abortion question to the broader issue of social supports and social rights, we are in effect simply making the same sort of argument that the Republicans are making, which is of an individual woman hanging out there alone in the breeze, unconnected to anyone or anything else. In truth Democrats believe our domestic policies do a better job because we believe in the responsibility we have to each other as members of a society, but we’ve been forced back upon this hyper-individualistic one-lone-moral-actor position, and keep falling for it. Feldt is talking about re-asserting our vision for creating a mutual-responsibility society (in Lakoff’s terms). So is Sullivan. So is Dean. And I agree.
Democrats don’t (at least nowadays) consistently link the issue of unwanted pregnancy to the broader issue of social supports and social rights, perhaps because the GOP has pushed us back onto a defensive position. We’re so busy protecting the basic right of a woman to choose we have stopped talking about how our broader social agenda actually reduces unwanted pregnancy.
When Kerry said he’d offer tax credits for stay-at-home parents of infants, he didn’t mention this. He never mentioned a link between access to contraception and unwanted pregnancy, or a link to economic justice and abortion rates. He never mentioned reducing unwanted pregnancy as far as I know, and I followed him on this issue pretty closely.
If we don’t link the abortion question to the broader issue of social supports and social rights, we are in effect simply making the same sort of argument that the Republicans are making, which is of an individual woman hanging out there alone in the breeze, unconnected to anyone or anything else. In truth Democrats believe our domestic policies do a better job because we believe in the responsibility we have to each other as members of a society, but we’ve been forced back upon this hyper-individualistic one-lone-moral-actor position, and keep falling for it. Feldt is talking about re-asserting our vision for creating a mutual-responsibility society (in Lakoff’s terms). So is Sullivan. So is Dean. And I agree.
You know, raisin, I see your point, but...
We ARE linking these things in our policies. WHEN THE MEDIA LETS US. But, right now, the progressive side is operating in a vacuum. See the posts all over these threads--every single one of them discuss the media's stranglehold on not only the information, but the very presentation of it. Earlier, I pointed out how Michael Moore is rarely allowed to finish a sentence before he's interrupted in an interview, but someone like, oh, Ann Coulter, are allowed to rave forever.
We discuss these issues, and discuss them. But if a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound?
More and more, progressives are operating in a vacuum, and we're gonna have to do what it takes to change that.
You know, raisin, I see your point, but...
We ARE linking these things in our policies. WHEN THE MEDIA LETS US. But, right now, the progressive side is operating in a vacuum. See the posts all over these threads--every single one of them discuss the media's stranglehold on not only the information, but the very presentation of it. Earlier, I pointed out how Michael Moore is rarely allowed to finish a sentence before he's interrupted in an interview, but someone like, oh, Ann Coulter, are allowed to rave forever.
We discuss these issues, and discuss them. But if a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound?
More and more, progressives are operating in a vacuum, and we're gonna have to do what it takes to change that.
Abortion will become a non-issue the day we develop the Embryadopt technology seen in Niven and Barnes's series of DREAM PARK novels.
Abortion will become a non-issue the day we develop the Embryadopt technology seen in Niven and Barnes's series of DREAM PARK novels.
This thread is regrettable, if only because it's distressing that as progressive beliefs are getting hammered at every level of governments, some folks are willing to purge progressives who have even the remotest qualms about unrestricted abortion. What depresses me more is to see, again, that pro-lifers and pro-choicers don't argue with each other, but instead with their personal strawmen.
I'm weary of debating and the insomnia holds tonight, so I want to limit myself to some verifiable points. The majority of pro-lifers support abortion in the case of dangers to the mother's health, rape and incest - Rick Santorum, creepy insane brought-his-dead-baby-home-for-the-kids -to-meet Rick Santorum supported that in his 1994 NPAT (for the record, Santorum and his wife had to decide whether to terminate a pregnancy and he said that if it came down to it, he would have. I don't come to praise Santorum, but he's an extremist and he's more moderate than the mythical pro-lifers discussed above.)
Which brings up the second issue - Roe establishes that abortions after the second trimester are allowable only in the case of threats to the mother's health. However, the companion decision of the same day - Doe V. Bolton, establishes that any condition - physical, emotional, psychological, familial, age, can be considered part of health. The result is that on paper, the United States has some of the most laissez-faire abortion laws in the world (Canada's are equivalent). France restricts heavily after about the fourth month, Britain after the sixth. Restricting third trimester abortions will not turn the U.S. into Caucescu's Romania.
Finally, I strongly suggest that people read Amy Sullivan's experience
trying to develop compromise legislation in 1997 with Tom Daschle. She's trying to develop a compromise because she has first hand experience about what it's costing the Democrats.
This thread is regrettable, if only because it's distressing that as progressive beliefs are getting hammered at every level of governments, some folks are willing to purge progressives who have even the remotest qualms about unrestricted abortion. What depresses me more is to see, again, that pro-lifers and pro-choicers don't argue with each other, but instead with their personal strawmen.
I'm weary of debating and the insomnia holds tonight, so I want to limit myself to some verifiable points. The majority of pro-lifers support abortion in the case of dangers to the mother's health, rape and incest - Rick Santorum, creepy insane brought-his-dead-baby-home-for-the-kids -to-meet Rick Santorum supported that in his 1994 NPAT (for the record, Santorum and his wife had to decide whether to terminate a pregnancy and he said that if it came down to it, he would have. I don't come to praise Santorum, but he's an extremist and he's more moderate than the mythical pro-lifers discussed above.)
Which brings up the second issue - Roe establishes that abortions after the second trimester are allowable only in the case of threats to the mother's health. However, the companion decision of the same day - Doe V. Bolton, establishes that any condition - physical, emotional, psychological, familial, age, can be considered part of health. The result is that on paper, the United States has some of the most laissez-faire abortion laws in the world (Canada's are equivalent). France restricts heavily after about the fourth month, Britain after the sixth. Restricting third trimester abortions will not turn the U.S. into Caucescu's Romania.
Finally, I strongly suggest that people read Amy Sullivan's experience
trying to develop compromise legislation in 1997 with Tom Daschle. She's trying to develop a compromise because she has first hand experience about what it's costing the Democrats.
Mike Collins has a working brain; the rest of you don't. I suggest you lot just shut up, because you have not a fucking clue what you're talking about. As long as you keep talking as you are here, the Republicans will be in charge. You are killing all hope for good policy, and you don't even know it.
Mike Collins has a working brain; the rest of you don't. I suggest you lot just shut up, because you have not a fucking clue what you're talking about. As long as you keep talking as you are here, the Republicans will be in charge. You are killing all hope for good policy, and you don't even know it.
In Mississippi (I think it was), after the legislature affirmed that "life begins at conception," a legislator on the left introduced a bill mandating prenatal care in the state penal system: The pre-born were forced into these places by the government through no fault of their own, then subjected to bad medical treatment, inadequate nutrition, etc. So if they're people, the government is obligated to fix this.
Of course the legislature had no interest in doing anything of the sort. I think there's a germ of an idea in all this.
In Mississippi (I think it was), after the legislature affirmed that "life begins at conception," a legislator on the left introduced a bill mandating prenatal care in the state penal system: The pre-born were forced into these places by the government through no fault of their own, then subjected to bad medical treatment, inadequate nutrition, etc. So if they're people, the government is obligated to fix this.
Of course the legislature had no interest in doing anything of the sort. I think there's a germ of an idea in all this.
This thread is one reason I stay out of the abortion 'discussion'.
I'm not sure that 'anti' and 'pro' are really anodynes. I'm also sure that there is some room for another position that might be a little more nuanced, shall we say, along the lines of what Kerry originally said: the Democratic Party can remain/become adamant about having no room for pro-life/anti-abortion voters, but be sure you're willing to lose elections because you exclude people who might disagree on one issue but agree on many others, like gun control, civil rights, foreign policy, and the like.
The really strident one-issue voters will remain with the GOP, although I'm also wondering if there are "log cabin pro-lifers' who will join the Democratic party in order to change it.
Excuse my naivite, but I'm still trying to understand how the GOP won the south back after the Civil War when their President had just commanded an army that beat them back into the Union and then imposed Reconstruction complete with voting rights for Blacks, who then won seats in the House and Senate, from which they weren't banished politically until 1901.
This thread is one reason I stay out of the abortion 'discussion'.
I'm not sure that 'anti' and 'pro' are really anodynes. I'm also sure that there is some room for another position that might be a little more nuanced, shall we say, along the lines of what Kerry originally said: the Democratic Party can remain/become adamant about having no room for pro-life/anti-abortion voters, but be sure you're willing to lose elections because you exclude people who might disagree on one issue but agree on many others, like gun control, civil rights, foreign policy, and the like.
The really strident one-issue voters will remain with the GOP, although I'm also wondering if there are "log cabin pro-lifers' who will join the Democratic party in order to change it.
Excuse my naivite, but I'm still trying to understand how the GOP won the south back after the Civil War when their President had just commanded an army that beat them back into the Union and then imposed Reconstruction complete with voting rights for Blacks, who then won seats in the House and Senate, from which they weren't banished politically until 1901.
Characters Remaining:
Commenting by HaloScan
