I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
Whaa? Aren't we talking about Survivor? War and the continuing co-option of the media is so passe!
(If it weren't Spikey, though, it would be easier to be outraged.)
Frist Bush, with a sponge and a rusty spanner.
Remembering is hard work!
They remember only the last thing this bunch of liars tell them.
Me First! Fush Buck!
GD MRNNG!
MPCH BSH!
FCK BSH!
FCK NWSWK!
FCK TH YNKS!
HV 
NC DY!
"Look! over there! Librul media sparking riots in which terr'ist Amurka-haters are killed over Koran-flushing outrage!"
(pay no attention to the Downing St. memo, Iraq violence, base closings/realignments, extremist judges controversy, etc., etc....)
The media seem too susceptible to Jedi Mind Tricks. Or Sith Mind Tricks, as the case may be...
The freepers who wander in here are pretty fun to watch. Their attitude toward the press makes me think their attitude toward warning lights on the dash is to yank the bulb. Pesky oil light! Wish it would go out. Guess I'll take the dash apart and pull the bulb. I might get my hands dirty if I checked the dipstick. 
I think the US has just about run out of ways to offend Muslims in the world at this point. Can bulldozing mosques be far behind?
Plausible deniability is now dead and buried next to irony.
"Hey, we may torture and kill Muslims and invade their countries and have our pundits advocate converting them all to Christianity, but we would NEVER desecrate their holy book. That would be going too far!"
Oy.
LOL! Now you guys know by now that you just can't go around hurting those poor Moslems feelings. That's just not nice!
HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA!!!!!
From the last thread - What are any of you here doing to prepare for the Peak Oil crisis?
I'll tell you this -- a source losing track of a report is NEWS NEWS NEWS!
A file showing Bush and P.M. Ears conspiring to go to war -- NOT NEWS!
48 hours? How about 48 minutes?
also from corrente, a daily stop of mine (scroll down for the whole thing):
"[SANTORUM] Now we are forced to do something that societies often do when people can't control their desires. We have to pass laws to stop their desires."
(via Times)
Or maybe we'll just get Sharon to march some of his armed men into another ancient mosque.
Erik Saar, the translator who wrote the expose about Gitmo interrogation techniques, was interviewed somewhere, can't find, can't remember where I read it, but he was asked about mistreatment of the Koran. He said the Pentagon had not cleared him to write about that--or words to that effect.
The point of the commentary was that, Wow, he could write about rubbing ersatz menstrual blood on a prisoner's face, but could not write about the Koran?
Anyone have access to that blog comment or whatever it was?
Thnx
Mornin', moonbats.
"Newsweek Lied, People Died" -- more manufactured outrage from the bullshit factory:
Beat The Press
From the last thread - What are any of you here doing to prepare for the Peak Oil crisis?
A free and Independent New England will have no use for that black mineral slime.
Newsweek shouldn't flatter itself. Since when was it ever this important? There's no way a story in an American newsmagazine sparked riots in Afghanistan. Really, how did the people there get a copy?
Everything would be just peachy if Newdweek would have kept their big mouth shut!
What are any of you here doing to prepare for the Peak Oil crisis?
Jeff in MI
"Gotta man of the people, says keep hope alive.
Got fuel to burn, got roads to drive--"
"LOL! Now you guys know by now that you just can't go around hurting those poor Moslems feelings. That's just not nice!"
--------------------
Good point! I mean, it's not like they do anything serious when provoked like, say, kill American soldiers or bomb embassies or crash jets into our buildings. Oh wait, I forgot, that's because they hate our freedom. Carry on.
Howard Kurtz, the conduit through which the Washington Times, NRO, and Drudge get access into the mainstream press.
"[SANTORUM] Now we are forced to do something that societies often do when people can't control their desires. We have to pass laws to stop their desires."
(via Times)
no way, he did not say that. of course i believe he did. more outrageous than man on dog.
on imus this morning he said even if the newsweek story was correct (and i bet in some form or another it is) if he was an editor he would not publish it. not that that surprises me.
I propose we send Avestus into Mecca to have him give the Moslem world a dressing down. How about it, who will pony up the airfare?
This is seriously insane.
Because Newsweek's anonymous government source for one tidbit of info in a much longer report backed off his earlier confirmation (didn't recant, mind you, just decided he couldn't confirm his second-hand knowledge), of one particular act that had been described by released prisoners years ago....this is now a searing indictment of the SCLM, and (apparently) a vindication of our torture mills?
Excuse me while I check whether the sky is blue on this planet.
But I guess when you're so cowed by the administration that your standard for whether something is true or not, is whether they will confirm it for you...you get what you deserve.
Which of these lessons do you suppose the SCLM will take from this incident?
a) Quit playing stenographer for the administration, and investigate and report facts on our own.
OR
b) Make super-duper-extra sure the administration says something is OK before we run it.
I'm preparing my best Nelson Muntz laugh for all those folks who drive 8 mpg monster SUVs in suburban areas. HA HA!
I'm not sure which is more preposterous, that they believe all this is the result of a Newsweek article, or that they expect the rest of us to believe it as well.
My Anus In The Morning makes funny noises too and I don't even hafta turn on the raydeeoh or teevee.
It's convenient of corse - or is it a set up!?
Until the entire press is as Fair N Balanced as Fox News, we will not be satisfied. That PBS is too pro-evolution biased.
It depends on the meaning of the word 'flush'.
They are not currently, at this infinitesimal
moment, flushing a Koran in a toilet so it
never happened. Now if the article said
'flushed' (past tense), that'd be diff'rent!
Funny, when Clinton pulled something like
that Baby Jeebus and George Washington
were weeping together up in Heaven, but
our lovely media, their subscriptions to
Lexis Nexus must've run out (or Winston
Smith finally got around to 'fixing' their
copies of random Washington Posts)...
Newsweek shouldn't flatter itself. Since when was it ever this important? There's no way a story in an American newsmagazine sparked riots in Afghanistan.
Yeah, there never were any riots over there until that story was printed.
Again, who are we are war with this week? Eurasia or Eastasia?
LOL! Now you guys know by now that you just can't go around hurting those poor Moslems feelings. That's just not nice!"
--------------------
Good point! I mean, it's not like they do anything serious when provoked like, say, kill American soldiers or bomb embassies or crash jets into our buildings. Oh wait, I forgot, that's because they hate our freedom. Carry on.
Samurai Sam
----------
And they were being such nice little dune apes before somebody flushed their holy book. Right?
I'm no proponent of Al Qaida, but at least they calls her like they sees her:
Purported al-Qaida Statement Blasts Rice
By RAWYA RAGEH, Associated Press Writer
(05-17) 04:58 PDT DUBAI, United Arab Emirates (AP) --
Al-Qaida in Iraq purportedly posted an Internet statement Tuesday blasting Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice's recent visit to Iraq and criticizing her calls to include Sunni Arabs in the political process.
(snip)
"The hag wants the participation of the apostates and secularists who are claiming to be Sunnis," the statement said about Rice. "You should know that our (the Sunni) way is fighting you."
(snip)
Yup. Winning hearts and minds. Maybe she could give a little piano recital or do an ice dance routine to Wagner or something.
Why doesn't Michael Isakoff write a blog to defend himself and his reporting?? If it were me, I'd write the story of my life, exposing all the lies, naming the sources (who have ditched him), naming the Senators who have seen the internal Pentagon reports of the Gitmo tactics/abuse, citing Gonzalez, Sanchez, et al, for their complicity/approval of such tactics, and listing (which Corrente does excellently) all the other news sources that have reported this abuse and Koran flushing. Isakoff could do it. Why doesn't he??? me, I'd have already exposed and burned all my weenie editors, faithless sources, and any and all WH or Senate bullshit of which I knew. I'd resign in a blazing flame out, burning everyone else I could.
But then again, I drink a little...
And they were being such nice little dune apes before somebody flushed their holy book. Right?
Dune Apes?
Dunes in Afghanistan?
Ha. Ha. Don't do any rock climbing. No wait. There are Dunes on top of Mt. Rainier.
Get your bathing suit ready and let's go climbing
Pentagon: We NEVER flushed Korans down the toilet and are offended by the accusation.
Q: What about electrocution?
Waterboarding?
Dog attacks?
Beatings?
Sexual humiliation?
Glowstick anal sodomy?
Pentagon: We NEVER flushed Korans down the toilet!
Press: Korans were never flushed down the toilet. Newsweek was wrong. Move along now.
Ignore the troll. He is blowing hot air, he hasn't convinced anyone here of anything with more than two years of trying.
Ignore him and he dies.
"Uh, er, ah oh yeah! They hate us because they read Newsweek."
From the last thread - What are any of you here doing to prepare for the Peak Oil crisis
Our nation has embarked upon an ambitious energy independence program which mostly involves blaming Newsweek for the problem.... oh, and coal.
I have an idea for all those goddamn Bibles that are handed out on college campuses at the beginning of the semester (here in Texas, anyhow).
Avestus tells us thar warn't be no problems with a mass flushing, 'cause Muricans wouldn't mind at tall...
little dune apes
Dare you to say this in a crowd of Moslems, Avestus (read Ted). Dare you to.
Our nation has embarked upon an ambitious energy independence program which mostly involves blaming Newsweek for the problem.... oh, and coal.
And the more ads we have with hot babes mining coal, the sooner we'll get it out there to the 'Murican people!
little dune apes
Dare you to say this in a crowd of Moslems, Avestus (read Ted). Dare you to.
Actually his knowledge of geography would probably have them laughing so hard they'd forget to kill him.
he hasn't convinced anyone here of anything with more than two years of trying.
===============
ROFLMAO!! I'm not here to convince you of anything. I'm here to laugh at you losers. It's like coming to a zoo of the developmentally disabled, a different variation of retard behind every post =D
i heart you, aquatigre: Yup. Winning hearts and minds. Maybe she could give a little piano recital or do an ice dance routine to Wagner or something.
watertiger | Email |
It's Gay Georgie and His Fag Hag "i'm descended from french aristocricy" Condi-boots! my, the parties they must have. they should invite some muslims, so they can see what really goes on in the bathroom stalls.
We would never treat the unnamed foreign individuals held indefinately without counsel in such an uncouth manner. For shame, Newsweek! Baby killers!
If I wasn't shamed by O>O's words (Incog?) I'd point out that Ted's a racist. Republicans are racists. He said a disgustingly racist thing...... But I won't.
I have an idea for all those goddamn Bibles that are handed out on college campuses at the beginning of the semester (here in Texas, anyhow).
Avestus tells us thar warn't be no problems with a mass flushing, 'cause Muricans wouldn't mind at tall...
jules
-----------
LOL! Here is where Jules discovers one of the problems with the Koran story, and gets his ass kicked by his dorm janitor for backing up the toilet at the same time =D
Preznit no giv me turkee.
Has Newsweak convicted Wacko Jacko yet?
Stop flushin' Korans, baby,
that's my philosophy . . .
If I wasn't shamed by O>O's words (Incog?) I'd point out that Ted's a racist.
Point of information. It's Toby, not Ted.
A couple of weeks ago, Toby forgot to clear his cookies and left that "flatasapancake" link as his homepage.
Not that it matters. But it's something to keep in mind when Toby pretends to be reasonable.
Maybe she could give a little piano recital or do an ice dance routine to Wagner or something.
She can play the piano? Get out. Next you're going to tell me her name means something in Italian!
(Media make happy cooing noises)
Wait, wait, wait. "French aristocracy?" You gotta fill us in on that one.
Preznit give him herpee.
Avestus tells us thar warn't be no problems with a mass flushing, 'cause Muricans wouldn't mind at tall...
julesi>
Ya gots ta get ya a big chipper/shredder and grind them babies up first. Shredded Bibles make great mulch for your victory garden!
Stop flushin' Korans, baby,
that's my philosophy . .
So far the wingnut reaction seems to have been "they didn't flush the Korans but so what if they did. We should be flushing Korans."
Very easy to say if you're not serving in the Middle East.
Honestly, if Bush cared about the lives of American soldiers he would have simply said "we're investigating these allegations and if someone flushed a copy of the Koran he will be prosecuted".
I'm not sure what all this media critcism is going to mean to anybody in the Middle East. In fact, most people in the Middle East expect the government to bully the press. This is only going to seem familiar to them. It's only going to make them more willing to believe they flushed Korans.
SWR, the troll(s) are such cowards, hiding and stealing names, that functionally they may as well be one person. Besides, it makes the Tedhead angry when you say it.
Avestus is the generic name of Enzyte, isn't it? Or is it just a knock-off?
Wow, I'm actually so mad at Newsweek right now, I don't mind that gas is up to $3/gallon, or that the small-government crusaders in my neighborhood slashed all the afterschool programs for the kids. Funny how that works.
Until told otherwise, it's DAMN YOU, NEWSWEEK!
.
is there going to be any live feed of the coleman/galloway smackdown?
Avestus is the generic name of Enzyte, isn't it? Or is it just a knock-off?
Dunno. But Avestus is definitely Toby. The key is to keep checking his homepage.
If you clear the homepage field but don't delete your cookies, the homepage you cleared will appear anyway.
Toby keeps making the same mistake. It's pretty funny. He doesn't understand how cookies work.
By the Boner Standards of the Bushies (the Medal Freedom, the Sec. of State, etc.), then Newspeak and Kissoff should be gittin' a Pulitzer or at least a Peabody or a Polk.
Ganin giv Preznit herpee.
Preznit giv me herpee.
"Avestus" is from Zoroastrianism; their central text was something like the "Zend Avesta."
Wait, wait, wait. "French aristocracy?" You gotta fill us in on that one.
B1 Bummer | Email
i read this in a print mag long ago, the nation or AtlMon or something. it was about how familiar and comfortable she feels with the boosh clan, and how they accept her as 'one of their own,' although i took that in a not so good (slavery) way. she supposedly used to like to chat it up with her other Hi Yeller wimmen friends in college about her background, which includes southern whites who fled the french revolution.
massah was more generous with his cock back then, i guess.
Isn't really THIS story from which they're trying to distract attention:
bbc: US ignored Iraq oil smuggling
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4554507.stm
Gay Georgie and His Fag Hag "i'm descended from french aristocricy" Condi-boots!
That's Mrs. Georgie W. Condi-boots. She calls him "My husband,".
Used to say that Collin the Compromised was too lazy to travel and so was a flop. It looks as if Condi would do well to follow his example for all the good it's done.
I suspect that Condi will go down as one of the most incompetent Secs. of State in history. Her place as the worst National Security Advisor up till now is certain.
I want to see her calandar for 2001, to check how many hours of her day was being spent at the piano instead of tracking that fussy little Richard Clark who was so annoyingly interfering with her accomplishments. I'm sure he caused her more than one wrinkle line in her pouty little face.
Toby keeps making the same mistake. It's pretty funny. He doesn't understand how cookies work.
SWR | Email | Homepage | 05.17.05 - 10:28 am
Musta fell fer one o' them spams fer learnin' computers at home.
see, Z ist vivant!
(If it weren't Spikey, though, it would be easier to be outraged.)
So, so true.
Sorry to disagree, but Assvestus has convinced me that his head is so far up his ass it looks like mAnn Coulter's adam's apple. And to prove his theory on a different variant of retard behind every post. The only question left is whether he takes his mother from behind or missionary.
So, were these real Korans, written in classical Arabic, or were they translations, or what?
Wait, the problem with the flushing story is that those babies are too big to flush?
Jeebus..anyone got a bucket?
"He (Toby) doesn't understand how cookies work."
oh, that is just the tip of the "not-understanding" iceberg that is Tovestus Smith.
Why doesn't he???
BIIIIIIIG mortgage, kids in college or private school (NOBODY in the plutocracy sends their kids to public school in NYC), skiing trips to Switzerland, snorkelling in the Bahamas?
shit like that's expensive as fuck...
IOW: just another co-opted, sold-out Corporate/State/Media asswipe???
yeah...
.
Wait, the problem with the flushing story is that those babies are too big to flush?
You should have gotten the new fax by now. The prisoners themselves (according to Fox News) were flushing the Korans.
Update your talking points please.
Au revoir, battes de lune!
a semi-busy day awaits...
much to do, many miles to cover...
i'll be following the festivities on AAR (th the extent that the fuckwitz at ClearChannel let me)...
later, gaiters...
flush bush
"Zend Avesta."
Then why does he serve the daevas?
Who set up Newsweek? Why doesn't Newsweek reveal the liar? Readers want to know.
Mad Bombers and the Men Who Love Them
May 17, 2005, 7:08AM
Democrats tie BayOil to Iraq's purchase of bombs
By DAVID IVANOVICH
Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle Washington Bureau
WASHINGTON - Houston's BayOil played a key role in helping Saddam Hussein's government purchase cluster bombs during Iraq's bloody war with Iran, Democrats on a Senate panel contend.
These oil-for-arms deals, Senate investigators say, helped cement a relationship that would later enable the little-known oil trader to emerge as the largest supplier of Iraqi crude to the U.S. market under the United Nation's oil-for-food program.
etc.
WASHINGTON - Houston's BayOil played a key role in helping Saddam Hussein's government purchase cluster bombs during Iraq's bloody war with Iran, Democrats on a Senate panel contend.
But that was back when they were our friends, and Rummy was just an asshole buddy of Saddam's.
No news here! Move along!
Without reading all the posts here, Media Whore Howard Kurtz is showing why he is at the front of the line when it comes to bowing and scraping at the altar of Dear Leader Bush. Read Kurtz's one sided take of the Newsweek story if you have the stomach for it here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/
wp...5041100587.html
EPTXoloitzcuintle: Even as the daleks think "philosophy" (academic masturbation) trumps all else, so they see the classics as a respect-commanding White Heritage. Also, they're no better at research than they are at making analogies. Thus the poor idiot probably just thought it was Greek or something (notice the modified, "masculinized" form). It could also be an oblique Nietzsche reference.
Poor Condi really needs to come back to earth every now and then.
Even as the daleks think "philosophy" (academic masturbation) trumps all else, so they see the classics as a respect-commanding White Heritage.
Yeah, I can see your point. They genuflect to Georgus W. "Light of the Aryans" Bush, so they'd get turned onto dime store Zoroastrian stuff.
Let's encourage them to play with fire. Might be worth a try.
Got a student driving in. Will be away the rest of the day so if you see one of my hats you'll know it's someone borrowing it. Hope it doesn't come back with lice this time.
Good morning.
Newsweek shouldn't flatter itself. Since when was it ever this important? There's no way a story in an American newsmagazine sparked riots in Afghanistan. Really, how did the people there get a copy?
stephen
It was reportedly reported by Al Jazeera (favorite whipping boy of this Administration, one has to note).
True? Not true? Who knows?
The whole thing reeks of post hoc reasoning, and the insane U.S. notion that we are the center of the universe. Whatever is reported here is known in the whole world; whatever is not reported here is not known anywhere.
How many people in this country, for example, know what the "Downing Street Memo" is?
What's wild is McClellan is pushing for Newsweek to do more than retract the story!
I have no idea what he has in mind - maybe Isiskoff going door-to-door in Afghanistan, personally apologizing to Afghans?
The White House is milking this - maximum punishment of the media (with bad information, no less) is Priority One. They suck
How many people in this country, for example, know what the "Downing Street Memo" is?
I'm ready to take to the streets over that one! Then they can blame the BBC for sparking protests in the US. Who's with me?!?!
Why doesn't someone just ask him what he thinks it means? Thermal insulation? Toothpaste? A kind of melon?
Wow, a post that proves the opposite of the intended point, thanks.
IT seems that there was an inquiry that report this sort of abuse of the Koran as well as an apology issued by a senior officer in the wake of riots at Gitmo.
An article was published in the NY Times on May1,2005 (link via Antiwar.com:
"One such incident (during which the Koran was allegedly thrown in a pile and stepped on) prompted a hunger strike among Guantanamo detainees in March 2002. Regarding this, the New York Times in a May 1, 2005, article interviewed a former detainee, Nasser Nijer Naser al-Mutairi, who said the protest ended with a senior officer delivering an apology to the entire camp. And the Times reports: "A former interrogator at Guantanamo, in an interview with the Times, confirmed the accounts of the hunger strikes, including the public expression of regret over the treatment of the Korans." (Neil A. Lewis and Eric Schmitt, "Inquiry Finds Abuses at Guantanamo Bay," New York Times, May 1, 2005.)"
Sorry for not posting directly to the NYT article and giving full context. I don't have axis to LexisNexis.
"Zend Avesta."
I say zend avestus right over to Afghanistan. Seriously, I'd volunteer to drive to whatever city he lives in and escort him directly to a military recruiter so he could sign up. I'd even treat him to lunch at Denny's on the way, as long as he promised not to talk.
BIIIIIIIG mortgage, kids in college or private school (NOBODY in the plutocracy sends their kids to public school in NYC), skiing trips to Switzerland, snorkelling in the Bahamas?
shit like that's expensive as fuck...
see, sometimes i forget, people will actually sell out just for money. in music,art, business, maybe that's ok. in journalism and government it should be fuck'n unacceptable. tho i realize it's standard operating procedure.
Doesn't it mean anything to you clowns that flushing Korans down the toilet is actually (like flag burning) a cliche? That Corrente's reports (many of which don't concern the US at all) proves how likely the idea is to have originated elsewhere?
I'm still confused is pudgy, pastey Scotty callin' Meyers a liar or a dumbass? How long will it Scotty to recoup after they surgically remove Meyers' boot from his pudgy, flabby ass?
The White House is milking this - maximum punishment of the media (with bad information, no less) is Priority One. They suck
stranger
They see their opportunity, they're taking it.
Nixon is jealous, somewhere in hell.
This Administration will silence the press. Entirely. Newsweek buckled because it's a corporation first, a news outlet second. Anyone remember the pressure put on Ben Bradlee during Watergate, when it wasn't at all clear Woodstein were being duped? Hell, some of their info came from Deep Throat, the original "anonymous source." They made mistakes in their reporting, but they never backed down, and the story over all was corroborated. Finally.
As a journalism professor said on NPR this morning: this story was out there for 11 days, and it wasn't a problem. Now, it has to be retracted?
We are one our own. Time to ignore all domestic media and pay more attention to the truly free press in the rest of the world.
One page at a time, one page at a time.
No back-up, no fuss, no muss.
(Oh, but I'll save the Sermon on the Mount sections and mail them en masse to a fundy church, as that's apparently the part they NEVER read.)
You're so square, baby,
I don't care . . .
Doesn't it mean anything to you clowns that flushing Korans down the toilet is actually (like flag burning) a cliche?
So people don't burn flags or flush Korans because people, um, burn flags and flush Korans all the time.
Gotcha.
I also love the fake reverence for holy books over here. Like you give a shit about the sacred Koran and keeping it clean. Like you SHOULD give a shit. Imagine if someone in the US burned a Bible, or an American flag, or used one or the other for toilet paper. Big whoop. Such sudden reverence for the superstitions of the irrational and the crazy-religious.
Doesn't it mean anything to you clowns that flushing Korans down the toilet is actually (like flag burning) a cliche? That Corrente's reports (many of which don't concern the US at all) proves how likely the idea is to have originated elsewhere?
Phlaetus
The statement in Newsweek was ten lines long, an aside, practically. It was out for 11 days before it was blamed for the riots in Afghanistan, riots even the military commander in that country says were unrelated to the article. The veracity of the claim is based solely on: did the military find evidence of this, and not reveal it?
Considering how they've handled the investigations into prisoner abuse (yesterday they convicted a soldier who went from delivering pizzas to guarding prisoners within 6 months. But no one in the chain of command is criminally liable, just this poor schmuck.), the credibility of the Pentagon is dubious, at best.
Phlaetus, maybe the U.S. military has special toilet paper with the Koran printed on it? Also, don't the military have $600 toilet seats. Can you imagine what awsome shitters they have if just the toilet seats cost $600? It hain't called MIL-SPEC fer nuthin'
So people don't burn flags or flush Korans because people, um, burn flags and flush Korans all the time.
No dumbass. As corrente's piece shows, koran flushing is a staple of the mythology of crusader-minded religious zealots. An indignation fit for any occasion.
I also love the fake reverence for holy books over here. Like you give a shit about the sacred Koran and keeping it clean. Like you SHOULD give a shit. Imagine if someone in the US burned a Bible, or an American flag, or used one or the other for toilet paper. Big whoop. Such sudden reverence for the superstitions of the irrational and the crazy-religious.
Phlaetus | Email | Homepage | 05.17.05 - 10:55 am | #
Once again, nobody really cares that someone's flushing a Koran.
What they care about is the fact that the government would be stupid enough to do it without considering the consequences.
But you're talking points are flying so fast it's hard to keep up.
1.) Nobody flushed a Koran. Newsweek lied.
2.) The fact that there are other sources saying they flushed the Koran only proves they didn't.
3.) Even if they did. It didn't matter. They should be flushing Korans.
RMJ - Well, on the positive side, the rest of the media is questioning the WH stand on this thing, unlike the Dan Rather situation, in which Rather and Mapes were on their own.
I don't know for certain, RMJ, but I think maybe this time it isn't going quite as smoothly as Rather's crucifixion went.
I mean, there's a journalism prof. on NPR taking issue with the WH over this - I honestly don't recall those kinds of things happening with Rather.
This is a different kind of story - this isn't personal, like Bush's TANG records.
I also love the fake reverence for holy books over here. Like you give a shit about the sacred Koran and keeping it clean.
Apparently that "fake reverence" begins in the White House, as the commander in the field in Afghanistan says there is no connection between the ten lines in the Newsweek article, and the situation in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
But Scotty insists Newsweek is responsible for those riots. Right. Once again, no one in this Administration is responsible for anything. Scapegoats are so convenient that way.
No dumbass. As corrente's piece shows, koran flushing is a staple of the mythology of crusader-minded religious zealots. An indignation fit for any occasion.
So this must mean that people don't burn flags!!!
Ha. Ha. Ha.
It's such a cliche, after all.
Where's my knife. I'm going to stab me a troop in the back.
"In Jibla, there is the Baptist hospital, which is the source of Christian activities in the province," Mr. Jarallah said. Muslims converted to Christianity at this hospital, he charged, and even "stuff the Holy Koran into toilets of mosques."
Do you suppose this guy read the Newsweek piece? Do you think the described Koran flushing really occurred?
Note that this example concerns muslims stuffing Korans into mosque toilets.
Tena-
I heard that journalism professor, too, and frankly wished NPR had spent more time on him, and less on "balancing" the story.
But perhaps that will be picked up. Surely the remaining "real" journalists in this country see the dagger being held to their throats, and will realize they, too, have power, and it doesn't stem from the corporate balance sheet.
So I hope you are right. When I put this in the context of Watergate, and consider how much further the White House now insists on going, well...the gaggles this week should be interesting.
This from a Lexis-Nexis search-
The Denver Post, January 9
HEADLINE: Nightmare of Guantanamo.... U.S. prison camp in Cuba has become legal black hole, reporter says:
"They were punched, slapped, denied sleep, had seen other prisoners sexually humiliated, hooded and forced to watch copies of the Koran being flushed down toilets. Eventually the pressure proved too much - they gave false confessions that the British intelligence service, MI5, later showed to be untrue. Upon their return to the United Kingdom they were released without being charged."
Herald Sun (Melbourne, Australia), January 3, 2005
HEADLINE: Koran prayer torture claim
LONDON -- A British detainee claims he was tortured at Guantanamo Bay for reciting the Koran when talking was banned.
Moazzam Begg told lawyers he was tortured using the strappado, in which a prisoner is suspended from a bar with handcuffs, Britain's Observer newspaper said.
Mr Begg alleged he had been shaven several times against his will and a guard had said on one such occasion: "This is the part that really gets to you Muslims isn't it?""
Financial Times (London, England), Oct 28, 2004
HEADLINE: Four Britons held at Guantanamo sue US government
In August Mr Ahmed, Mr Rasul and Mr Iqbal issued a 115-page dossier accusing the US of abuse, including allegations that they were beaten and had their Korans thrown into toilets.
USA TODAY, October 18, 2004
HEADLINE: Spy case was a 'life-altering experience' for airman
Al Halabi says he did not witness any treatment of prisoners that has now been called into question as abusive. But he says he saw things at Guantanamo that disturbed him. He says guards would purposely mishandle the Koran "just to see the detainees' reaction."
Daily News (New York), August 5, 2004
HEADLINE: ABUSED AT GITMO, FREED BRITS CHARGE
"They would kick the Koran, throw it into the toilet and generally disrespect it," Asif Iqbal wrote.
The Independent (London), August 5, 2004
HEADLINE: FATHER CALLS FOR SON'S RELEASE AFTER CAMP DELTA TORTURE CLAIMS BEGG DEMANDS SON'S RELEASE AFTER TORTURE CLAIMS AT CAMP DELTA TORTURE
In the report, released in New York, Asif Iqbal, Rhuhel Ahmed and Shafiq Rasul - the so-called Tipton Three - said one inmate was threatened after being shown a video in which hooded inmates were forced to sodomise each other. Guards allegedly threw prisoners' Korans into toilets, while others were injected with drugs, it was claimed.
The San Francisco Chronicle, JUNE 20, 2004
HEADLINE: THE FILE: PRISON ABUSE;
Prisoners have been forced to strip naked -- nudity is a violation of Muslim principles; forced to commit actual or simulated sex acts; prevented from sleeping; threatened with dogs; hooded; given electric shocks; beaten with fists, chains, boots and other objects; forced to maintain painful positions for hours; kept in frigid isolation rooms; subjected to loud music, strobe lights and diets of bread and water; urinated on and prevented from praying or reading the Koran.
The Observer, May 16, 2004
HEADLINE: Inside Guantanamo Bay
'THEY HAD already searched me and my cell twice that day, gone through my stuff, touched my Koran, felt my body around my private parts. And now they wanted to do it again, just to provoke me, but I said no, because if you submit to everything you turn into a zombie.
The Guardian (London) - Final Edition, May 14, 2004
HEADLINE: Guantanamo abuse same as Abu Ghraib, say Britons
According to a source, who has interviewed them in secret since their release, they were initially too ashamed to talk about it, and are only now starting to give details. The source said: "They are embarrassed about talking about it because they feel humiliated. We have had an account that their religion was used against them, that a copy of the Koran was brought in front of them and pages torn out."
The Observer, March 14, 2004
HEADLINE: World Exclusive: Inside Guantanamo: How we survived jail hell
As Muslims, they were shocked when in repeated 'shakedown' searches of the sleeping tents, copies of the Koran would be trampled on by soldiers and, on one occasion, thrown into a toilet bucket. Throughout their stay at Kandahar the guards carried out head-counts every hour at night to keep the prisoners awake.
The Washington Post, March 26, 2003
HEADLINE: Returning Afghans Talk of Guantanamo; Out of Legal Limbo, Some Tell of Mistreatment
The men, the largest single group of Afghans to be released after months of detainment at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, gave varying accounts of how American forces treated them during interrogation and detainment. Some displayed medical records showing extensive care by American military doctors, while others complained that American soldiers insulted Islam by sitting on the Koran or dumping their sacred text into a toilet to taunt them.
SWR, for one thing, you and I don't care about flag burning. We dont care about Bible burning. Don't play like you do. So why do you care about Koran burning, even if it took place (which I doubt.)
The second point is, stories about Koran flushing , especially stories not involving Guantanamo such as the one above, prove merely that indignation over "offenses to islam" like Koran flushing is a staple rallying cry of politico-religous zealots.
"In Jibla, there is the Baptist hospital, which is the source of Christian activities in the province," Mr. Jarallah said. Muslims converted to Christianity at this hospital, he charged, and even "stuff the Holy Koran into toilets of mosques."
Do you suppose this guy read the Newsweek piece? Do you think the described Koran flushing really occurred?
A clearly established causal connection.
I'm convinced. All stories about desecration of religious objects are hereafter ipso facto false. Got it.
Good grief.
Note that this example concerns muslims stuffing Korans into mosque toilets.
Nooo, your example clearly refers to allegations made by Muslims that Baptists cram Qurans into Mosque "toilets," which might not be what you think. Mosques have special plumbing for ritual ablution, and the Arab toilet proper is a porcelain hole in the floor that is squatted over. Indeed, everything in your example cries out for more context.
Remember how the MBSMF useta yabber about how more people were murdered in Detroit (or insert your favorite city here) than in Baghdad? By that standard the Newspeak riots in the "stans" is just a fair-to-middlin' South or Central Amurrican Soccer War.
Do you suppose this guy read the Newsweek piece? Do you think the described Koran flushing really occurred?
So all I have to do is find some outlandish story that resembles the story in question and I'll disprove it.
For example, pedophile priests. All I have to do to disprove that is to find another story about pedophilia that might not be true.
And it's disproved.
This is a very common wingnut talking point, btw. Look at half the conspiracy theories on Indymedia and you'll find they were posted by wingnut trolls like Mr. Philaetus.
But let's for a moment assume that his theory is true. There are so many stories about Koran flushings out there that none of them can be true. After a point, say 100 Koran flush stories, they're all cancelled out automatically.
They still doesn't address the real issue. If the American occupation of Iraq were going well, if Afghanistan were really developing into a democracy, why are people still so angry that they'll believe these stories.
Look at the tinderbox and not the match. Then maybe you'll find the truth. But that would involve reading a bit of history and looking at class and economics and real hard information and not just spouting right-wing ideology.
The real concern is the way the mainstream media continue to grovel when the administration attacks them, which allows the administration to have increasing control over the news.I havent seen anyone here displaying reverence for the Koran, fake or otherwise. So, flatulus, why don't you jam a Bible up your butt so your head will have something to read?
SWR, for one thing, you and I don't care about flag burning. We dont care about Bible burning. Don't play like you do.
I don't care for my grandmother's cooking either. But I'm not going to visit her house and tell her it sucks.
I don't believe in Judaism either. But I'm not going to accept an invite to a girlfriend's family's seder and shout out "oh God this is all crap".
Somehow you wingnuts think it's cool to insult another culture. I don't.
Now as to burning a flag, I've never done it, but if I did, I would do so in the full knowledge that it's going to outrage people and that's why I'd do it. I wouldn't be stupid enough to plead innocent when the shit hits the fan.
The second point is, stories about Koran flushing , especially stories not involving Guantanamo such as the one above, prove merely that indignation over "offenses to islam" like Koran flushing is a staple rallying cry of politico-religous zealots.
Which establishes that the White House is using this claim (which may or may not have any basis in facts on the ground in Afghanistan and Pakistan) for its own purposes, and the issue is not: Did this happen, but: should the White House be allowed to cow the press in this manner?
There are, by the way, numerous reports, some of which I've heard in interviews from witnesses, of women interrogators in Gitmo trying to make Muslim men "unclean" so they cannot perform their daily prayersp in their cells. So stories of flushing the Koran have more than an aura of credibility, in light of that and of the confirmed and acknowledged stories of abuse of prisoners.
Is it true? It hasn't been proven. Is it false, as the White House and Pentagon insist? Well, considering they are the ones insisting it is, I remain skeptical, at least.
Apparently that "fake reverence" begins in the White House,
It doesnt begin there, but it's there, and it's defnitely fake.
"Nobody flushed a Koran. Newsweek lied. " Unknown, but flushing Korans is part of the folklore; ex-gitmo examples like the one above prove that. treating folklore as established fact is dumb.
OK, let's say al-Jazeera picked the story up and that caused the riots. Why didn't their eralier stories on "Koran abuse" spark riots? This isn't the first time we've heard the story. Or people watching al-Jazeera.
This whole story requires us to have the cognitive skills of a gnat. I mean, the Bush administration is telling people they should be careful about saying things that aren't true? Where do they get off?
"Nobody flushed a Koran. Newsweek lied. " Unknown, but flushing Korans is part of the folklore; ex-gitmo examples like the one above prove that. treating folklore as established fact is dumb.
Good. So no hippie ever spit on a returnig vet. Gotcha.
When are you writing the press?
should the White House be allowed to cow the press in this manner?
"be allowed to?" no guns to the editors head at newsweek. If they had faith in their story they'd stick to it, cowing be damned.
Actually, if Newsweek guys could produce a named source, they'd stick to it. Which only speaks to the creeping relince on unnamed/weak sources, which is the same thing as bad journalism. no news is better than folklore.
made by Muslims that Baptists cram Qurans into Mosque "toilets,"
WRONG! read , fucker!
MUSLIMS do the cramming! Or not.
Folklore.
That the Bush Administration would go to the pains they did to admonish Newsweek is telling. Normally, theyd just ignore the fuss and downplay the situation, rather than highlight it.
Does anyone else detect the reek of desperation?
And I, for the record, have no problem believing this took place. Whoever blabbed to Newsweek got scared and backed away when their testes shrank.
no guns to the editors head at newsweek. If they had faith in their story they'd stick to it, cowing be damned.
Conditions are not nearly so black and white, or mutually exclusive, as that.
Newsweek buckled. The White House put a figurative gun to their head. Newsweek blinked.
Ben Bradlee faced a serious shit-storm over Watergate, and Woodward and Bernstein actually published inaccurate reports at times. They made mistakes. Bradlee never ordered a retraction. He told them to be more careful.
Newsweek blinked. Should the focus be on Newsweek, or on how the White House drummed up this story (which may have no basis in reality; it may well be true the article had nothing to do with the riots in two countries), which means they are lying in order to maintain political power.
Should the White House be punished, politically, for that? Should the White House "be allowed" to get away with it?
That's the pertinent question.
Folklore.
Phlaetus | Email | Homepage | 05.17.05 - 11:15 am | #
So the Swift Boat guys were all lying about spitting on vets?
They're lying, right?
Let's get that clear before we move on.
BTW SWR, stories about vets being spit on are good for a local police blotter (maybe), not a major newsweekly. ditto flagburning bible-asswiping, etc.
Should the focus be on Newsweek
Newsweek dug their hole when they used their "unnamed source" to write about a non-newsworthy maybe-event. time to hop in.
BTW SWR, stories about vets being spit on are good for a local police blotter (maybe), not a major newsweekly.
So you're saying that Chris Mathews shouldn't have had Norman Schwarzkopf on his show talking about spitting on returning Vietnam vets.
Excellent. We agree.
Now if you're kindly point out the local police force that has jurisdiction over Gitmo, I'd gladly check their blotter.
"[SANTORUM] Now we are forced to do something that societies often do when people can't control their desires. We have to pass laws to stop their desires."
(via Times)
no way, he did not say that. of course i believe he did. more outrageous than man on dog.
The only thing worse that I can think of, of course, is man on horse.
made by Muslims that Baptists cram Qurans into Mosque "toilets,"
WRONG! read , fucker!
MUSLIMS do the cramming! Or not.
Folklore.
Phlaetus
Ummm...if they are converted to Christianity, and thereafter cram Korans down a toilet, they are no longer Muslims.
If they are doing this as Muslims, well...I know Christians who would gladly destroy a crucifix, being convinced as Protestants that it is an 'idol.' Would probably tear up a copy of the Vulgate, too, as it includes books not in the "Protestant" bible. Or simply because it was "Catholic."
Folklore? Not on the basis you've asserted. And just because it is folklore (assuming arguendo), doesn't mean it has no basis in fact, or that other incidents are not, therefore, true.
But SWR has pointed that out many times now, and you haven't rebutted it.
So who's at the top of Newsweek's corporate food chain that decided they would capitulate to the White House? Are those people supporters of Bush?
This decision was not made by the magazine's editors, but from above. The real story is not in the retraction, but in the connecions that can get a retraction made. Did Newseek "take one for the team" in order to diminish the veracity of all Gitmo torture allegations? Or were they themselves threatend with something?
There have been lots of mentions of vets being spit on in major magazines over the years. So what the fuck is your point?
Newsweek dug their hole when they used their "unnamed source" to write about a non-newsworthy maybe-event. time to hop in.
Phlaetus
Funny it took the White House 11 days to decide there was a hole there at all.
And round and round it goes.
This is where I get off the merry-go-round.
A History teacher at Woodworth Middle School has been suspended for saying that Betawin Arab's use the Koran as toilet paper.
This one is pretty interesting. I see now how stories are written on the internet. Google "toilet" and "Koran."
There have been lots of mentions of vets being spit on in major magazines over the years. So what the fuck is your point?
1.) If something reaches the status of "folklore" it's by definition not true.
2.) The folklore about Vietnam vets being spit on is different because it shouldn't be covered as a national story.
Or something like that. But I'm betting he won't come out and apply the same logic he's using about the Korans to the vets being spit on.
So I ask again. The story about returning vets being spit on is folklore. Does that mean it never happened?
doesn't mean it has no basis in fact, or that other incidents are not, therefore, true.
I am not arguing for their truth or falsehood (but expressing my own doubt.) rather for their irrelevance to the purposes of good journalism.
If something reaches the status of "folklore" it's by definition not true.
Again, no, but folklore is no basis for responsible journlism.
The folklore about Vietnam vets being spit on is different because it shouldn't be covered as a national story.
Folklore, not newsworthy, not responsible journalism.
But I'm betting he won't come out and apply the same logic he's using about the Korans to the vets being spit on.
Wrong. Pay up.
Does that mean it never happened?
Different conclusion, and no.
Does that mean it never happened?
also ad ignorantium.
"In Jibla, there is the Baptist hospital, which is the source of Christian activities in the province," Mr. Jarallah said. Muslims converted to Christianity at this hospital, he charged, and even "stuff the Holy Koran into toilets of mosques."
No, we were right, "fucker." Do you not know how to read? This is your example, man.
also ad ignorantium.
Phlaetus | Email | Homepage | 05.17.05 - 11:28 am | #
But you KNOW that the Koran stories didn't happen.
Anyway troll, you're busted and you know it. You're not going to come out and say "no. No Vietnam vets were spit on because that's your side's bread and butter story.
So you look like a hypocritical jackass.
Here's a good summary in Slate.
Last week, both the New York Times and U.S. News & World Report reprised the horrific accounts of Vietnam War protesters spitting on returning servicemen. In a piece about West Point's post-Vietnam mood (April 2
, timed to coincide with the 25th anniversary of the fall of Saigon, Times reporter John Kifner writes:
Much has changed since Lt. Col. Conrad C. Crane ('74) watched on television here as the war wound down, a time he remembers as "almost a siege mentality" at West Point, when cadets could not wear their uniforms off campus for fear of being spat on.
Amanda Spake of U.S. News quotes (May 1) Terry Baker of the Vietnam Veterans Association about the disgraceful behavior:
"When the WWII guys came back," Baker adds, "they were able to talk about the war. With Vietnam, vets had to change their clothes in the bus station because people would spit on them."
Nope. No major newsmagazine ever covered that. Nope. No siree.
Sigh. It seems like the only posting I ever do is to remind people NOT TO FEED THE FUCKING TROLLS!
Thank you, and good day.
Also, Bedu are thought of by Arabs as disgusting redneck inbred dirty morons ("Bedu" itself is not something you want to be called), so the teacher was in line with "mainstream thinking" of a sort.
fine, converted muslims, I apologize for calling you fucker and saying you need to learn how to read. Now re-read that piece fucker, and explain to me how it relates to Gitmo and an established history among the USMC of flushing "holy books" down the shitter.
Mr. Jarallah said. Muslims converted to Christianity at this hospital, he charged, and even "stuff the Holy Koran into toilets of mosques."
No, we were right, "fucker." Do you not know how to read? This is your example, man.
The LGF mantra on this is "Islam's not a race".
Looks like the troll doesn't accept it when they convert.
Muslims converted to Christianity at this hospital, he charged, and even "stuff the Holy Koran into toilets of mosques."
And I, for the record, have no problem believing this took place. Whoever blabbed to Newsweek got scared and backed away when their testes shrank.
Pollen Boy-
That is the most plausible reason the story got published and the shitstorm ensued.
And as far as desecration of the Koran, there were numerous reports of this act independent of this instance.
Many of them have been cited here.
As with the Rather/AWOL Bush story, the underlying story actually happened. Both have been dismissed on a technicality. The people that are being played to (besides the press) are the Bush base.
Keep the bastards riled up and angry.
And the attention off of the Bushies.
fine, converted muslims, I apologize for calling you fucker and saying you need to learn how to read. Now re-read that piece fucker, and explain to me how it relates to Gitmo and an established history among the USMC of flushing "holy books" down the shitter.
Phlaetus | Email | Homepage | 05.17.05 - 11:32 am | #
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
By your logic, no Vietnam vets were spit on.
At least admit this conclusion follows from your logic.
By your logic, no Vietnam vets were spit on.
You are really a fucking idiot, arent you?
By your logic, George Bush is a genius and should be re-elected to a third time. You like that? "By your logic, we should bomb Mecca" "By your logic, we should invade Iran"
Marines? Established history? Like the "history" of Marines nerver leaving wounded behind (the French Foreign Legion has the same stock myth by the way)? Do you know who you're talking to?
At least admit this conclusion follows from your logic.
Saying a specific incident hasn't been proven to have occurred isn't the same thing as saying it never happened. Saying that same undocumented incident isnt newsworthy isnt the same as saying it hasn't happened. Thats what ignorantium means, ignoramus.
By your logic, no Vietnam vets were spit on.
You are really a fucking idiot, arent you?
Phlaetus | Email | Homepage | 05.17.05 - 11:35 am | #
Answer the question.
Your argument is that once a practice reaches the status of folklore or cliche, no individual instance of it can be true.
So answer the question. In your opinion, were there any Vietnam vets spit on by hippies?
By your logic, no Vietnam vets were spit on.
"Logic"? There is no evidence that they were.
.
Your argument is that once a practice reaches the status of folklore or cliche, no individual instance of it can be true.
I am saying nothing of the kind. You are saying Geroge Bush is a super genius and should be crowned emporer. Why?
To their credit, the Newshour w/ Jim Lehrer led with the Newsweek story and included video of Myers giving his "nothing to do with" statement at the top of the story.
Do you know who you're talking to?
Are you in the foreign legion? The marines? I'm impressed, guy. Flush some korans down the crapper in your day, I bet. I hear they teach that in basic training.
I am saying nothing of the kind. You are saying Geroge Bush is a super genius and should be crowned emporer. Why?
Phlaetus | Email | Homepage | 05.17.05 - 11:39 am | #
In your opinion, were there any Vietnam vets spit on?
Just answer the fucking question.
Logic"? There is no evidence that they were.
.
Grand Moff Texan | Email | Homepage | 05.17.05 - 11:39 am | #
So then is US News and World Report going to issue a retraction?
Because according to Philaetus dude, once something becomes a cliche that's enough to disprove it happens.
Because according to Philaetus dude, once something becomes a cliche that's enough to disprove it happens.
It doesnt get any truer the fiftieth time you type it imbecile. Were you dropped on your head as a child?
Reporting folklore and hearsay as fact = bad journalism.
In your opinion, were there any Vietnam vets spit on?
Sure, probably. Not sure its newsworthy. Not sure I would write about it happening without documentation or evidence (or even with documentation!)
msnbc is really pushing the disinformation campaign from the white house.
chris whitcomb(?), former fbi, actually got on camera and said the koran story couldn't possibly be true, because when he toured gitmo, he didn't see any mistreatment by the guards. he didn't see any mishandling of the koran. why, the u.s. is so sensitive to muslim sensibilities that special meals are served.
the newsreader host then chimed in with this new spin: previous reports of detainees ripping pages from the koran and flushing down the toilet (punishable by death), would actually be acceptable if done in service of a higher goal (propaganda against the u.s.).
apparently, the former fibbie is unaware of his former colleagues' alerts to hq about mistreatment of prisoners. i guess once you accept the msnbc paycheck, all allegiance is transferred to g.e.
But I'm betting he won't come out and apply the same logic he's using about the Korans to the vets being spit on.
Wrong. Pay up.
Hey look, I made this stunning admission four or five posts ago!
=Your argument is that once a practice reaches the status of folklore or cliche, no individual instance of it can be true. (11:3
-I am saying nothing of the kind. (11:39)
Phlaetus did earlier compare Quran desecration to flag burning, which of course happens, but which more importantly is meaningless. Nobody does anything different because a flag was burned in a country that happily makes American flags into doormats, tissue and Patriot Diapers.
Sure, probably. Not sure its newsworthy.
So should ever major news organization that printed the stories retract it?
Should they have given time to the Swiftboat group who made that very accuation every time they were interviewed?
Hey look, I made this stunning admission four or five posts ago!
Phlaetus | Email | Homepage | 05.17.05 - 11:47 am | #
Nope. You said "sure. Probably."
That's not an admission.
Were the Swift Boat people lying?
"some of the Vietnam vets at the pro-Iraq war protest were said to have been spit on by pacifists in the crowd."
If the NYT wrote something like this you'd have a shit fit.
That's not an admission.
'Sure' is me agreeing that it probably happened. I didn't follow the swift boat story at all, because it is boring and ad hominem, as is calling GWB a coward.
'Sure' is me agreeing that it probably happened. I didn't follow the swift boat story at all, because it is boring and ad hominem, as is calling GWB a coward.
Phlaetus | Email | Homepage | 05.17.05 - 11:50 am | #
So are you saying that vets were spit on by hippies or not?
And if they were, doesn't this disprove your argument that once something becomes folklore it becomes of it's very nature untrue?
Galloway hearing can be blogified at the top post.
Nobody does anything different because a flag was burned in a country that happily makes American flags into doormats, tissue and Patriot Diapers.
correct, not caring so much about a piece of paper with some ink on it. unlike the readers of merkin patriot digest or god bless USA times-herald. So why is newsweek pandering to religious zealots by irresponsibly parroting folkloric religious propaganda ??????
So why is newsweek pandering to religious zealots by irresponsibly parroting folkloric religious propaganda ??????
Why was the entire corporate media pandering to right-wing zealots by parroting folkloric propaganda about the anti-war movement?
So are you saying that vets were spit on by hippies or not?
And if they were, doesn't this disprove your argument that once something becomes folklore it becomes of it's very nature untrue?
for themillionth time, probably at some time in history, and 'folkore' doesn't make every reported instance false, unbelievable super-moron.
Phlaetus did earlier compare Quran desecration to flag burning, which of course happens, but which more importantly is meaningless. Nobody does anything different because a flag was burned in a country that happily makes American flags into doormats, tissue and Patriot Diapers.
correct in every particular.
I hear they teach that in basic training.
Actually, there is a lot of wierd shit that goes on there, and then there is the infamous SERE school where Bible desecration (scroll down to with the bible) is a kind of final exam, but what we were getting at was that governments lie and official Marine sources more so.
for themillionth time, probably at some time in history, and 'folkore' doesn't make every reported instance false, unbelievable super-moron.
Phlaetus | Email | Homepage | 05.17.05 - 11:56 am | #
So you're saying that:
1.) The folkloric nature of hippies spitting on vets doesn't necessarily prove it's false.
2.) The folkloric nature of flushing Korans does in fact prove it's false
1.) Newsweek should retract a story because according to you it's folklore
2.) The 10000000000000 or so news outlets that gave free space to the Swift boat guys shouldn't because, um, you weren't paying attention to it.
Got it.
(aside: Jeez. Is it any wonder why this country is fucked).
So why is newsweek pandering to religious zealots by irresponsibly parroting folkloric religious propaganda ??????
perhaps because it affects its targets differently and because there is good reason to expect that it's true.
Oh man, I regret writing this already, BUT...this troll is being a little bit more sensible than you folks are giving him credit for.
I mean...we -don't- know for sure if all this sacred-text-flushing really happened. He's saying it might not have, because koran-flushing is a boogeyman, sort of. And it sort of is. He's also acknowledging that's not proof that it didn't happen.
What he has said, several times, is that Newsweek were fools for relying on an anonymous government source to establish their story as fact. Well...he's right. They decided their "truth" began and ended with what anonymous, probably unaccountable administration folks told them was the truth, and now they're paying for it. It's a lesson they should have learned long ago.
I won't speak for the rest of you, but I'm offended less by potential koran-flushing than the other abuses we know happened in these torture mills...although if the flushing happened, it was more stupid than evil, since of course it's just going to piss people off and make the jailors look even worse.
Newsweek's laziness doesn't resolve whether or not any koran-flushing happened. I think it probably did. Trollboi thinks it probably didn't, but he's not stating it as a fact, as far as I can tell.
I dunno, I'll save my flames for the real "Newsweek lied, people died" blowhards. Those are the really delusional ones.
I won't speak for the rest of you, but I'm offended less by potential koran-flushing than the other abuses we know happened in these torture mills...
And the sheer stupidity of doing it knowing what a tinderbox the Middle East is doesn't bother you?
2.) The folkloric nature of flushing Korans does in fact prove it's false
No, for the zillionth time. Until you acknowledge that unproven := false, I must conclude you have a brain injury or aspergers syndrome or some other impairment.
1.) Newsweek should retract a story because according to you it's folklore
Newsweek should retract the story because its undocumented. The story shouldnt need retraction because its also not newsworthy.
Swift boat blahblah is completely irrelevant to me.
Swift boat blahblah is completely irrelevant to me.
Phlaetus | Email | Homepage | 05.17.05 - 12:06 pm |
Of course. Becuase you're a hypocrite.
You ignore the media's barrage of folklore about hippies spitting on Vietnam vets even though it influenced a presidential election.
No calls for retraction here.
Yet you argue that the Koran's story's folkloric status is false and is proven false by its very folkloric status.
Double standard. And cognitive dissonance.
"And the sheer stupidity of doing it knowing what a tinderbox the Middle East is doesn't bother you?"
Sure it does. It's abysmally stupid. And if it happened, I'd like to see the higher-ups held accountable for not making clear to their little Torturelings that it abysmally stupid.
Sadly enough, though, I think it pales in comparison to the much more obvious crimes going on over there, like...killing tens of thousands of civilians.
If it happened, it was really stupid. And I wish the folks in our government would start acting like civilized adults. But I can't pretend to be offended for their rude treatment of religious symbols. It may make them assh0les, but ... a lot of the other stuff going on makes them criminals.
Yet you argue that the Koran's story's folkloric status is false and is proven false by its very folkloric status.
are you autistic?
" unproven := false,"
"and 'folkore' doesn't make every reported instance false"
"I am not arguing for their truth or falsehood"
SWR, I think judge WAPNER is on, WAPNER is on.. WAPNER... WAPNER
But I can't pretend to be offended for their rude treatment of religious symbols.
Someone shoots Dennis Kucinich. It's linked to the JDL.
We imprison a bunch of Jewish extremists.
There are reports of guards desecrating Jewish religious symbols. What happens?
are you autistic?
" unproven := false,"
"and 'folkore' doesn't make every reported instance false"
"I am not arguing for their truth or falsehood"
Phlaetus | Email | Homepage | 05.17.05 - 12:15 pm | #
So you're saying that you have a double standard.
1.) Folklore in the instance of the Koran flushing in and of itself proves it's not true.
2.) Folklore in the instance of the spitting on the vets doesn't.
Gotcha.
You ignore the media's barrage of folklore about hippies spitting on Vietnam vets even though it influenced a presidential election.
no fallacy left unexplored. yet another tu quoque irrelevance.
Folklore in the instance of the Koran flushing in and of itself proves it's not true.
WAPNER...WAPNER
not what I said at all. WAPNER is on.
SWR, in between telling us how you had to see WAPNER, you were telling us why George Bush is a super genius and should be crowned emperor. Why? Cognitive dissonance! It makes no sense, man!
" unproven := false," {read DOES NOT EQUAL}
"and 'folkore' doesn't make every reported instance false"
"I am not arguing for their truth or falsehood"
WAPNER.
Newsweek's laziness doesn't resolve whether or not any koran-flushing happened. I think it probably did. Trollboi thinks it probably didn't, but he's not stating it as a fact, as far as I can tell.
no, and I'm not stating with certainty it didnt happen either, no matter how many times SWR clicks his red slippers and murmurs it to himself.
SWR, I'm not arguing that flushing a koran in front of muslim POWs wouldn't be a phenomenally dumb thing to do. Or that a predictable result wouldn't be righteous indignation, and possibly violence, by devout Muslims.
Obviously, religious symbols can be very important to members of those religions. And it would be foolish to desecrate those symbols, to try to extract information from a "faith-based POW."
All I'm saying is, it's only offensive to me because of its stupidity and the inevitable backlash. Not because I care about the respectful treatment of the Koran, or the Bible, or whatever icon of faith is at issue. On the other hand, the actual physical torture that happens there...that offends me on its face.
Forcible glowstick sodomy is an evil act in just about any context.
Flushing a holy book is not. It's evil if you do it in front of a devout person with the intent to cause them psychological pain. But I don't give a damn about the book itself. I just don't =
Let's change the terms of the debate a bit since I've already proven that Philaetus is a hypocrite for his double standard on the folklore standard of proof.
Let's talk about desecration of religious symbols.
He says we shouldn't care.
Yet the FBI reports vandalism of synagogues and Jewish cemetaries as "hate crimes".
Is he saying this should stop?
Are you saying the FBI is wasting resources worrying about the desecration of Jewish religious symbols?
There are reports of guards desecrating Jewish religious symbols. What happens?
then the black helicopters land and send you to ZOG prison camps in Alaska, mr. mcveigh.
Flushing a holy book is not.
So what about the FBI's listing vandalism of a Jewish cemetary as a "hate crime"?
Are you in favor of this? Or do you think that it should be considered simple vandalism?
then the black helicopters land and send you to ZOG prison camps in Alaska, mr. mcveigh.
Phlaetus | Email | Homepage | 05.17.05 - 12:25 pm | #
So do you think that vandalizing a Jewish cemetary is a "hate crime"?
Or is it simple vandalism?
Or is it only Islamic symbols you have no trouble seeing desecrated?
SWR, I believe that world jewry is out to get us all. the jew is using the black man for muscle!
SWR, I believe that world jewry is out to get us all. the jew is using the black man for muscle!
Phlaetus | Email | Homepage | 05.17.05 - 12:30 pm | #
Do you agree with prosecuting vandalism of a synagogue as a "hate crime"?
Do you think hate crimes laws should exist?
is this really SWR?
http://
hurryupharry.bloghouse.ne...ldom_pretty.php
Galloway is a perjurer.
hate crime! jewry! jew hypocrisy! quack!
ISRAEL! what was the question!?
hate crime! jewry! jew hypocrisy! quack!
ISRAEL! what was the question!?
Phlaetus | Email | Homepage | 05.17.05 - 12:50 pm | #
I'm going to keep asking the question until you answer it.
You're arguing that it should be no big deal to any of us if someone desecrates a Koran.
And yet the FBI keep statistics for hate crimes and one thing they consider a hate crime is vandalizing a Jewish cemetary.
Are you saying that the FBI should stop keeping hate crimes statistics?
So, where to interrogators get these ideas...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focu...ws/917300/
posts
""But when you want to interrogate a fundamentalist, it is not easy to get into his mind when he considers you an infidel . . ."
Easy solution . . . Confuscius say, turn Abdullah into a big fat infidel . . . "Abdullah, sweetie . . . Now, if you don't want to spend any more time with your head held under water, you WILL look into that there camera over there, you WILL crap on this here Koran, you WILL curse Allah's name, you WILL piss on Mohammad's memory, and you WILL drink this here big glass of pig piss, blood and poop -- five times every day, for the rest of your life. Got me, sweetie? . . . Or . . . We can hold your head under water again. Your choice.
I guarantee you, Abdullah will become the biggest infidel you've ever met and will eagerly spill his guts, infidel to infidel (you just won't want to have him over for dinner, what with all that pig piss, blood and poop on his breath).
12 posted on 05/24/2003 11:29:16 PM PDT by LibWhacker"
The outrage.
Okay. So we now know the Newsweek story had nothing to do with the rioting.
What I want to know is...who first reported that it DID have a connection?
Long posting -- but relevant to the issue of doublethink on the NEWSWEEK ISSUE
Here is a source reporting the kinds of practices that are
reported in NEWSWEEK going on routinely. This is a
NONanonymous source (see web citation)and extremely
credible. Let's see if this info gets its proper attention
in the mass media, now that the doctrine of seditious
libel (libel against the state where the greater the
truth the greater the libel) is going full force,
not that it has been unenforced throughout the past half
century and more.
It is interesting that the issues of condemning NEWSWEEK are
taken so virulently by the right. This is NOT like the
"Rathergate" issue as that merely was reporting something
everyone knew and no one cared about. This is a real story
of great importance that it is clear the powers that pee
are seeking to suppress. The reaction should be to bombard
the mainstream media with this kind of info, and press
it on call-in radio (especially to mainstream stations),
letters to the editor, blogging sites, and of course,
protests targeting the mass media for its servility.
It is a very good illustration of how news is suppressed,
something even more repugnant as a desecration than the
original. After all, it is bad enough to repress someone's
religion or ideology, and another not to come clean about
it and admit the particular acts or practices involved;
then the public can determine the proper response, rather
than have the powerful determining everything according
to their own whims and predilictions:
http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/reports...rts/docs/Gitmo-
compositestatementFINAL23july04.pdf
Asif says that `"it was impossible to pray because initially
we did not know the direction to pray, but also given that
we couldn't move and the harassment from the guards, it was
simply not feasible. The behaviour of the guards towards our
religious practices as well as the Koran was also, in my
view, designed to cause us as much distress as possible.
They would kick the Koran, throw it into the toilet and generally
disrespect it."
The fence mending has to come to from the top, not from Newsweek. President Bush needs to show accountability for American missteps large and small, from the hate speech of Crusader-General William Boykin to Abu Ghraib and the Iraq war rationale.
Until that happens, Scott McClellan et al should follow Dick Cheney's unapologetic admonition to Pat Leahy on the Senate floor...
For more, see:
"The Pot Calls the Kettle Irresponsible"
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