Amanpour forgot God's Rottweiler.
http://www.spiegel.de/img/ 0,1020...0,461726,00.jpg


Nigel Elliott | Homepage | 08.24.07 - 2:43 pm | #

Isn't Christiane Amanpour Iranian? Could this be what colors her look at other religions?
anonymous also | 08.24.07 - 2:43 pm | #

the whole christains trying to get into political and justice positions should make it clear they are trying to take over goverment, isnt this considered a coup or treason at best or conspiracy against the federal goverment of the u.s.

these people will destroy this country completely. congress needs to pass a constitutional ammendmant protecting all people against religous discrimination but with a twist to protect those who are not religous from discrimination based upon not believing in said religon, i wonder if gays wanting marriage can sue the church for discrimination already seeing as they themselves are commiting religous discrimination against gays think about it.
shawn | 08.24.07 - 2:45 pm | #

I thought this was a very good idea. I didn't get a chance to watch all of it. Just a few minutes each night. I watched more of the Larry King special with all sides represented. I think this is a conversation that needs to be had. There can never be any kind of peace until all sides understand each other a little better. I didn't much like the poll. I wouldn't have picked any of those choices out of all those possible. That's why I hate polls, they put words in your mouth. Most of the time the way they are worded messes up the true result.
Progressive Troll | 08.24.07 - 2:49 pm | #

"Pitbulls for christ"? Good Dog.

Excuse me from the human race.
scottinsf | 08.24.07 - 2:50 pm | #

LMAO @ the Wing Nut Daily "poll" questions.
What a bunch of reactionary, uninsightful whack jobs.
Pete | 08.24.07 - 2:52 pm | #

shawn, I think it's treason. I'm sick of all these liars saying the US is a Christian nation, founded upon the principles of Christ. Have these people every bothered to even read the Constitution or take a civics or American history class, or read the King James New Testament that they want the rest of us to live by? They don't live by it, so we do the rest of us??
Progressive Troll | 08.24.07 - 2:52 pm | #

I'm surprised one of the poll questions didn't call for violence.
Progressive Troll | 08.24.07 - 2:53 pm | #

Well Pam, all I can say for the WingNut folks is -- sometimes the truth hurts!

As for Christiane Amanpour, I've always found her very worthy of respect. That she's willing to put her reputation out there and call fundamentalism what it is is even more commendable.
TP | 08.24.07 - 2:54 pm | #

My Impressions from Documentary:

Jerry Farwell’s fat bloated neck bulging against his shirt collar and tie, with his expensive suite hiding his gluttonous waist line.

Suppressed materialism and sexuality expressed in an eating addiction.

Man of God my ass.




.
Keith | Homepage | 08.24.07 - 2:57 pm | #

Christiane's stories show that fundamentalism in all religion is potentially dangerous. Having myself lived in Israel for nearly a year, her story about the radical zionists who illegally occupy the West Bank was a topic most often suppressed by our MSM here.

Scary was the story of Rev. John Hagee, Rev. Rick Scarborough, and youth leader Ron Luce who wish to make our nation a theocracy.

Why was I not surprised by reich-wing religious WorldNut Daily's "poll". I wanted to vote but you have to register. At NewsMax, you not only have to register but have to tell them for whom you voted in 2004.

Grant in Houston | Homepage | 08.24.07 - 2:57 pm | #

Christiane was born in London, studied journalism in the US

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amanpour

I very much admired a very pregnant Amanpour reporting from Lebanon.
Dianne in DC | Homepage | 08.24.07 - 2:58 pm | #

That interview of Falwell by Amanpour was only a week before he keeled over and died! More than anyone, he can be blamed for the divisiveness that has become Amerika.

Grant in Houston | Homepage | 08.24.07 - 2:59 pm | #

welcome back Grant.
Steve in CNJ | Homepage | 08.24.07 - 2:59 pm | #

I watched all 3 parts...and find Ms Ammanpore's journalism insightful,and the woman has Integrity..which lacks too much nowadays on news/CNN...sure, there were times I could scream at the tv, and curse these bastards..especially the Christian Taliban. Any Gay person in the USA today..could mirror/liken thier existance to that of the Jews in early 1930's Germany...Demoinzed on a daily basis by thiese religious weirdos. They want to BAN Gay Marriage ie: Ammendment to OUR Constitution, BAN Civil Unions and any recognition of thier relationships,BAN any domestic partnerships...BAN Gay/Lesbian adoptions/Fostering...BAN any rights from discrimination....THEY STAND FOR EVERYTHING UN-AMERICAN..AND I'M SICKENED!
Disgusted American | 08.24.07 - 2:59 pm | #

It was nice to see some real journalism for a change. In many ways, the series is still very superficial in its topics, but at least they were addressed.
Garrett in SF | 08.24.07 - 3:01 pm | #

When in doubt ask Dr. Schlessinger! Just kidding of course.

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them: When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them? I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her? I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself? A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die? I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted fan,
Chris
Andrew | 08.24.07 - 3:04 pm | #

I was actually stunned to see something so plainly candid and honest about all religious fundamentalism, including Christianism, on a corporate news network like CNN. Stunned.

Amanpour did an excellent job and really just showed it as plain and real as it is. I was disappointed she didn't hammer home more the point that the whole "Battlecry" thing was brought to San Francisco to give the City's LGBT community a big middle finger, but it was mentioned and I think she was as fair as she could be.

I also got to thinking about how we have an implicit censure policy about what's acceptable on American media and what is not, and this was one of the rare occasions that solid reporting broke through that policy.
Luke | 08.24.07 - 3:05 pm | #

"pit bulls for Christ;"




is there a law against forcing christians to fight to the death and betting on the winner?
Capt Howdy | 08.24.07 - 3:06 pm | #

Call me crazy, but I adore Christiane Amanpour.
Dave of the Jungle | Homepage | 08.24.07 - 3:08 pm | #

Did "anonymous" at the top of this thread just assume that since Christiane's father was Iranian that she is biased? Her mother was British and she was educated in Catholic schools in the UK, then has married a Jew. She couldn't have a more ecumenical background! At Brown University, she was a close personal friend of John F. Kennedy, Jr.

As for the American fundies interviewed, they knew they were going to be on CNN and took the opportunity to get out their messages to their flocks and probably hope to convert more in the television audience.

Grant in Houston | Homepage | 08.24.07 - 3:09 pm | #

Wow, look at the nutty results of that poll. Then realize that WingNutDaily has just hired ex-gay porn star Matt Sanchez to be their official reporter in Iraq.
Latrell | 08.24.07 - 3:09 pm | #

Great series I thought. I love myself some Amanpour.

OT - That killer of the little girl Jessica Lunsford just got the death sentence. You know, I am very much against capitol punishment, however, it is cases like these that make think that exceptions might just be in order.
proud hairy | 08.24.07 - 3:09 pm | #

Christiane Amanpour is a iranian christian married to a jew. what more do you want?
johnosahon | 08.24.07 - 3:10 pm | #

Wow, look at the nutty results of that poll. Then realize that WingNutDaily has just hired ex-gay porn star Matt Sanchez to be their official reporter in Iraq.
Latrell | 08.24.07 - 3:09 pm | #

######################################

they do, they want to eradicate him. that's why they sent him there.
johnosahon | 08.24.07 - 3:11 pm | #

"Isn't Christiane Amanpour Iranian? Could this be what colors her look at other religions?"

...or maybe she's female and that's what makes you think her 'look' at religions is colored.

Or maybe she's a professional journalist (no, Bill O'Reilly or Rush Limbaugh are not journalists) and *that* is what makes her look biased.

Needless to say, thinking that she's biased at one religion or another because she's Iranian is gettin' kinda racist.

Shame on you, anonymous.
Ben | 08.24.07 - 3:14 pm | #

johnosahon | 08.24.07 - 3:11 pm | #

Not at all. Sanchez is the gay bomb! LOL.

http://www.julescrittenden.com/2...06/10/gay-bomb/
Steve in CNJ | Homepage | 08.24.07 - 3:14 pm | #

Andrew | 08.24.07 - 3:04 pm |
------------------
That was hilarious Andrew (Chris?). I've never seen anybody ever before post that on the internets. I'm just wondering if that whore is a xtian or a jew ;)
scottinsf | 08.24.07 - 3:14 pm | #

it is clear that the dems are not going to impeach anyone. they are cowards. they want to get re-elected and the constitution does not mean anything. that is sick.

we keep electing the same persons time and time again and hope for a different result each time. they are all in bed with each other. vote a new person into the office each and every election.
bill in nj | 08.24.07 - 3:15 pm | #

Andrew | 08.24.07 - 3:04 pm |
------------------
That was hilarious Andrew (Chris?). I've never seen anybody ever before post that on the internets. I'm just wondering if that whore is a xtian or a jew ;)
scottinsf | 08.24.07 - 3:14 pm | #

Hahahaha......Your guess is as good as mine.
Andrew | 08.24.07 - 3:16 pm | #

Thanks Steve. Most of my vacation in northern Indiana was spoiled by nearly constant rain but it was good to visit all of my family and some high-school classmates mostly talking about our 50th class reunion coming up. Nearly everyone was Republican but I heard several bashing Bush/Cheney and those sitting close by kept their mouths closed for once. One of our dear classmates lost their son to the Bush war and his death shattered the community as he had been a beloved policeman called up twice for National Guard deployments! Somewhat different tone than just a few years ago when I last visited. The yellow ribbon car magnets and Bush/Cheney stickers were noticeably absent.

Grant in Houston | Homepage | 08.24.07 - 3:17 pm | #

Dr. Laura is an orthodox Jew.

Grant in Houston | Homepage | 08.24.07 - 3:18 pm | #

Dr. Laura is a smelly shoe.
Pete | 08.24.07 - 3:23 pm | #

johnosahon | 08.24.07 - 3:11 pm | #

Not at all. Sanchez is the gay bomb! LOL.

http://www.julescrittenden.com/2...06/10/gay-bomb/
Steve in CNJ | Homepage | 08.24.07 - 3:14 pm | #

#########################3


LOL
johnosahon | 08.24.07 - 3:23 pm | #

my magnet says 'out of iraq, bring em back'.
Steve in CNJ | Homepage | 08.24.07 - 3:24 pm | #

Dr. Laura is an Odious Shrew.
Pete | 08.24.07 - 3:26 pm | #

Dr. Laura is a Retarded Kazoo.
Dave of the Jungle | Homepage | 08.24.07 - 3:28 pm | #

You people are silly nuts. I asked a simple question.
scottinsf | 08.24.07 - 3:29 pm | #

Dr. Laura elicits me to spew.
proud hairy | 08.24.07 - 3:30 pm | #

Dr. Laura has Republican family values. She had a bad relationship with her mother. Her 77-year-old mother was found on the floor of her condo after quietly decomposing into the carpeting for several months before being discovered. Her mother's home was not far from her famous daughter's radio studio.

http://www.bettybowers.com/laura.html

Grant in Houston | Homepage | 08.24.07 - 3:32 pm | #

Still doesn't answer my question Grant.
scottinsf | 08.24.07 - 3:36 pm | #

According to Wiki, Dr. Laura denounced her Orthodox Judaism in 2003 on the air.

The Betty Bowers site also lists some quotes from Dr. Laura about honoring our parents:

"God's commandment of honoring parents is basically the message that parents are a conduit of God. Any profanity or harm to the parent is as if we've profaned God."

"The commandment to honor parents was given to ensure that the elderly, although they may not feel wanted by family or society, are still given their appropriate reward."

"We honor parents today by making sure they are taken care of when they can no longer care for themselves."

"We honor parents by keeping them connected to family."

All the while her Momma died alone and slowly rotted away in her condo! Another instance of "do as I say, not as I do!"

Grant in Houston | Homepage | 08.24.07 - 3:41 pm | #

Andrew | 08.24.07 - 3:04 pm | #

where did you get that from? PLEASE LINK ME, I DEMAND IT, IT IS MY RIGHT.

LOL
johnosahon | 08.24.07 - 3:43 pm | #

Someone should tell Chimpy that if we "stayed in Viet Nam", we wouldn't be fighting in Iraq, because we'd still be in Viet Nam.

And they would have drafted his cheerleader ass long ago.

Joshua Norton | 08.24.07 - 3:46 pm | #

OK, let's put it this way, John took this witch down once already. He had help. Dr. Laura is a has-been.

Let's try to take John's (and our) fight to the next level. AMERICAblog 2.0 is looking better every day.
scottinsf | 08.24.07 - 3:48 pm | #

"God's Warriors" will be re-run on CNN on Saturday night from 9pm to 3am eastern time. The part on Christian fundamentalists will be at 1am-3am.

Set your VCRs!
Shirley Goodness N. Mercy | Homepage | 08.24.07 - 3:49 pm | #

We should start posting all over the WIngNutDaily message board. It assuradly will cause a shitstorm there.

And truthfully, it is really a fascinating look at (or scary reminder) that Born Again Christians have hijacked Christianity and this country.

You have to know what "the enemy" is thinking. And remember, we can get them "over there, so they don't get us here."
BScotP | 08.24.07 - 3:50 pm | #

Were Mormons mentioned or interviewed?

Mormons are among the worst of the gay hating religious right.

I'm so sick of people, especially from this blog, defending Mormons.

Michael Jensen is right on to say, "the documentary can be considered a success if even only a few Americans -- especially gay ones -- wake up to what these Christian fundamentalists aspire to."

People need to understand that Mormons are the worst, and in many ways, best organized and most powerful, of "Christian fundamentalists."
Timmy T | 08.24.07 - 3:53 pm | #

You'll never catch me defending Mormons, or Scientologists either. Both are cults.

But then so are all religions.
Shirley Goodness N. Mercy | Homepage | 08.24.07 - 4:02 pm | #

I'm not seeing a whole lot of folks here defending Mormons Timmy T. If anything, the most powerful Mormon in the whole wide world is getting pummeld. As well he should.
scottinsf | 08.24.07 - 4:03 pm | #

Andrew | 08.24.07 - 3:04 pm | #

where did you get that from? PLEASE LINK ME, I DEMAND IT, IT IS MY RIGHT.

LOL
johnosahon | 08.24.07 - 3:43 pm | #

I wish I could link it. I saw it several years ago but for the life of me can't remember where. So I just cut and pasted itback then and kept it in storgae for the right occasion.
I haven't got any problem with anyones beliefe system. Live and let live, but this piece really was an eye opener not just with regard to jewish beliefs, but the belief of all organized religion.
Just my opinion. Now, I have to go find a bull to sacrifice on an altar....lol
Andrew | 08.24.07 - 4:07 pm | #

-ALERT-

Bill Maher's show is on tonight at 11 pm on HBO!

Don't miss it.
LookDeeper | 08.24.07 - 4:19 pm | #

I saw no difference between the radical Christians, Jews and Muslims. Each want to annihilate those who do not agree their beliefs.
DemInOC | 08.24.07 - 4:22 pm | #

Not a good idea to mess with the Wingnut's message boards. It's really not as fun as it sounds anyway as most don't have the mental capicity to put up a good fight.

We could play with their silly little poll though...
TG | Homepage | 08.24.07 - 4:28 pm | #

Andrew | 08.24.07 - 3:04 pm | #

where did you get that from? PLEASE LINK ME, I DEMAND IT, IT IS MY RIGHT.

LOL
johnosahon | 08.24.07 - 3:43 pm | #

I wish I could link it. I saw it several years ago but for the life of me can't remember where. So I just cut and pasted itback then and kept it in storgae for the right occasion.
I haven't got any problem with anyones beliefe system. Live and let live, but this piece really was an eye opener not just with regard to jewish beliefs, but the belief of all organized religion.
Just my opinion. Now, I have to go find a bull to sacrifice on an altar....lol
Andrew | 08.24.07 - 4:07 pm | #

##################################

LOL, i am a christian myself, BUT I AM NOT A BIBLE CHRISTAIN. LOL

if you believe EVERYTHING in the bible, we ALL SHOULD BE KILLED.
johnosahon | 08.24.07 - 4:34 pm | #

Isn't Christiane Amanpour Iranian? Could this be what colors her look at other religions?
anonymous also | 08.24.07 - 2:43 pm

Try Lebanese.

'colors her look at other religions?' What "other religions?" Christianity, Judaism? Islam? Did you watch the show?

How about her observations of patriarchal, monotheistic religions?
Wordsmith @ work | Homepage | 08.24.07 - 4:47 pm | #

She held up Ralph Reed as the Christian poster boy WITHOUT mention of his ties to Abramhoff and corruption.

She let John Hagee pontificate about how be believed in the Torah without explaining that this included murdering gays.
Anonymous | 08.24.07 - 4:51 pm | #

She didn't once mention the word Dominionism.
Anonymous | 08.24.07 - 4:51 pm | #

I can't wait for 'iphone warriors'


Gonzo Ghost | Homepage | 08.24.07 - 5:05 pm | #

Pitbulls for christ.
Yeah. That Jesus dude was all about attacking people like pitbulls.
John Nation | 08.24.07 - 5:10 pm | #

A bit of anecdotal feedback. Encouraged my nephew (a fundie minister) to watch. He missed the first two parts but swears he'll watch the repeat. His e-mail on the Christian Warrior part (I quote):

"I enjoyed Amanpour's report on "Christian Warriors" and thought she did a good job reporting the diverse range of opinions in evangelical Christianity."

Knocked my socks off until I realized he probably considers himself to be in the "moderate" (i.e., not completely insane) subdivision of the right.
Psyche | 08.24.07 - 5:11 pm | #

Psyche | 08.24.07 - 5:11 pm |

Sadly, he probably is a moderate -- by their standards. The far-right ones are positively frightening.
nicho | 08.24.07 - 5:12 pm | #

You'll never catch me defending Mormons, or Scientologists either. Both are cults.

But then so are all religions.
Shirley Goodness N. Mercy | Homepage | 08.24.07 - 4:02 pm |

That's really a lazy statement and ignores the very sharp differences that exist. It also masks the dangerous elements of the cults.

It's like when people say "All politicians are alike."
nicho | 08.24.07 - 5:15 pm | #

Anonymous | 08.24.07 - 4:51 pm

Yeah, and? It wasn't meant to be THE all-encompassing, all inclusive exposure piece.

With my degrees in Religious Studies, Theology & History, she did a good enough job. But I know a helluva lot more than the average person, the average Catholic.

Evangelical Christians are not necessarily synonymous with fundamentalists and dominionists.
Wordsmith @ work | Homepage | 08.24.07 - 5:21 pm | #

Isn't Christiane Amanpour Iranian? Could this be what colors her look at other religions?
anonymous also | 08.24.07 - 2:43 pm]

You're right - sorry about that. She is Iranian. This I did know, however; she's Christian.
Wordsmith @ work | Homepage | 08.24.07 - 5:24 pm | #

'Sharp differences" among religions may exist but the truth is none of us knows the how or why of our being. No matter how firm "beliefs" are, no one "knows" what we are doing here and the collective certainty of religion takes on a "cult-like" quality.
NanaT | 08.24.07 - 5:41 pm | #

I wish Amanpour would have asked the findies (who claimed they weren't anti-gay, just pro-marriage) if they wanted to see sodomy laws back on the books. I thought the three-part series was a balanced approach and she tried to present opposing viewponts.
Nurse Mildred Rached | 08.24.07 - 5:49 pm | #

the collective certainty of religion takes on a "cult-like" quality.
NanaT | 08.24.07 - 5:41 pm |

I don't think it's collective certainty that defines a cult -- at least in the pejorative sense of cult.

It's the exclusiveness, extreme secrecy, marginalization of outsiders, mechanisms of control to keep members from leaving, isolation of members, and thought control that results from the isolation.

With the Mormons, for example, only Mormons can witness the secret temple ceremonies, and not even all Mormons. Those who are allowed to participate must take a blood oath of secrecy under pain of being disemboweled and having their throats slashed if they reveal the cult secrets. There is nothing like that in most other religions. Non-Catholics are perfectly free to wander into the Vatican or any church for any of the church services.

Those who are excommunicated by the Mormons, which can happen from merely questioning church teachings, essentially cuts you off from your family, friends, home town, etc. Leaving of your own volition can have the same effect.

And in heavy Mormon areas, they tend to spy on members they suspect of being in violation of church teaching. I know one person who is going through this right now.
nicho | 08.24.07 - 6:08 pm | #

I'm so tired of biblical bullshit. These people want to govern based on fairy tales.
Amerikagulag | 08.24.07 - 6:27 pm | #

Luce's ministry is called "Teen Mania".

Mania....Indeed.

So this is like Jesus Camp. some crazy foreign exchange program where you send you child off for a year. Can't wait for the crap to hit the fan in a few years when the kids start telling the truth about how the elder couldn't keep their hands off of them.
more lee safer | Homepage | 08.24.07 - 6:28 pm | #

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I love the cross.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want the cross.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want the cross.

------------
I think we all know what he really wants here...and it aint no cross!
more lee safer | Homepage | 08.24.07 - 6:31 pm | #

Nicho ....I agree and did not mean to imply that "collective certainty" was the only hallmark of a cult....just one of many.
NanaT | 08.24.07 - 9:15 pm | #

Bible Thumpers Yes We Are! Killin and Hating to The Farthest Star! War and Blood our Daily Bread - Till All in Our Path are Surely Dead!

Constitutions We Don't Need! Bill of Rights Won't Hold Our Greed! War's Our God; and Peace for Chumps! Our National Standing in The Dumps!

Jesus Was Our King of Old! But We Can't Do As We're Told! Behind Our Pulpits We Can't Stay! 'Till We Ruin Everyone's Day!

In The Word We've Never Read, What It Very Clearly Said! To the Humble Goes The Earth! We Were Fools for All We're Worth!

They Lied to Us, Those Men in Cloth! Fomenting Strife in Holy Wroth! Our Pockets Bare, Our Cupboard Clean! Such Woe and Pain We've Never Seen!

God in Heaven Knows Our Frame! Yes We'll Turn and He We'll Blame! No Gratitude, No Thanks This Day! To The Devil We Shall Pray!

Alas, in him - No Empathy! "Why, You've Done My Work for Me!"
Anonymous | 08.24.07 - 9:31 pm | #

Um, I'm a member of the first graduating class of Liberty University's new school of law. Having been inside this "pit bull training camp" for three years, I can tell you that we have more diversity of thought than your classic rabid-religious-right stereotypes support. The relationship of religious moral principles to the governance of society is a tough problem and requires a nuanced analysis. Every religious group has its extreme elements. Roman Catholicism had its Inquisition. Islam has its Jihad. Atheism has Stalinist purges. Incidentally, by the numbers, the atheists are the second most murderous group in the bunch: 31,519,000 Christians killed. See World Christian Encyclopedia: A comparative survey of churches and religions in the modern world, 2nd Ed., David B. Barrett, George T. Kurian, Todd M. Johnson Oxford University Press, 2001., page 11. The most murderous group? Not Muslims. Not Jews. Not Christians. The winner is … secular governments, coming in at a resounding 55,597,000 Christians killed. Amanpour really should have done a fourth segment entitled “Secularism’s Holy Warriors.,” but as that would strike too close to home, perhaps not.

What does each of these manifestations of “holy terror” have in common? A view that they have both the right and the duty to use force to impose their entire schema of reality on the entire human race whether it fits or not. However, in my Bible, which I do read (religiously, one might say), Jesus came to bring a law for the heart, communicated to individuals by spiritual, supernatural means. He taught that you can’t just join Christianity like you join a health club. You have to be invited. He explicitly rejected the use of "the sword" as a tool of conversion. He said we should honor earthly political authority when it operates in its proper domain, and we should honor God in those things specific to God. This was perhaps the first time the ancient world had ever heard of or considered the concept of separation of the religious and the political powers, and we have all since benefited greatly from it, don’t you think? Yet it came from Jesus, or if you reject that he originated it, at least you must admit he supported it. Would you reject an innovation like separation of the religious and political powers just because a religious person advanced the idea? I hope not.

Likewise, there are many other difficult issues in setting the boundaries implied in civilized behavior. Sometimes these boundaries are simply an unspoken social consensus. Sometimes they are so important society writes them down as laws. For example, we will probably all agree that murder is wrong, I hope (although some of you put me in doubt of that premise, but we will hope for the best). Yet such a law imposes on the freedom of would-be murderers, most of which I am sure want to kill because they think they gain something from it. To them, it is an exercise of their personal freedom, and the law against murder robs them of that freedom. We reject that “exercise of freedom” because it imposes the ultimate limitation on their victim. Therefore, law is really about trying to find the right balance in setting boundaries on personal freedoms. Nobody is absolutely free.

But people disagree about where those boundaries should be. Consider sexuality. Christians and other traditional theists see sex as a design of God for sustaining the race through procreation and its incident benefits. Consequently, those who defy the design are, in this view, defying God’s role as Creator. As a matter of remaining faithful to the Master Designer, Christians cannot embrace non-heterosexuality as valid. Therefore, while the freedom to privately engage in a wide range sexual activity may be a workable boundary for civilized society, forcing Christians and other dissenters to embrace such behavior as normative is to do violence to their conscience. It is in effect a kind of spiritual rape. This introduces such instability to society as to threaten the basic nature of our civilization. We must find mutually acceptable boundaries. The absence of stable boundaries is the very essence of war.

Therefore, much of the legal effort to be undertaken by the so-called rabid-right is really defensive in nature. We seek the freedom to be who God called us to be within a reasonable sphere of normal human activity. If we have a church that honors God’s design for sexuality, we think it is wrong for gay activists to assault the conscience of that church by forcing it to perform gay weddings, against it’s will and contrary to its own teaching. See New Jersey’s effort to force Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association into just such an event. In effect, such activists are jihadists themselves, forcing unwilling persons into conduct not of their own choosing. Lack of conformity will be punished, and no reasonable stopping point will be admitted. There is no sense of seeking reasonable boundaries here. This is what we see as a threat to civilized behavior. The more extreme groups have reacted with equal and opposite energy. This is unfortunate, but predictable. To circumvent the entire collapse of our delicately balanced social tensions, we must seek reasonable boundaries. That must begin with dialogue that gives a fair view of the legitimate needs and interests of the parties in conflict. From what I have read here, I doubt this was accomplished by the Amanpour documentary.
Lynchburger | 08.24.07 - 11:03 pm | #

Well, I voted in that poll.

I voted for: Finally, someone in the U.S. media has revealed the kinder, gentler side of Islam and what jihad really is

and the count hasn't gone up since the screen shot of the earlier poll was posted.
marnie | 08.24.07 - 11:58 pm | #

Lynchburger,

You are full of shit.... I think we ALL know enough history to know that religions are the cause of most of the wars in history not to mention the justification for killing native peoples around the earth and stealing their resources....grow the fuck up and take some responsibility for your crazy shit religion.
Shannon | 08.25.07 - 3:13 am | #

Shannon, Lynchburger is a Liberty University Student. Did you expect an intelligent conversation? I highly doubt there is any "diversity" of though at that "university."

These "Christians" live in denial of their history - or just whitewash it all together.

There is no such thing as killing for "secularism." That has to be the most absurd thing I've read all night. Stalin had his own wacked out ideas which led to such bloodshed - it has absolutely nothing to do with atheism or any secular beliefs he might have held. Maybe you should do a little research before making a fool of yourself.

It's pretty embarrassing that a religion which preaches such love for its fellow man is so guilty of the worst crimes against humanity. Here is just a small sample.
Sarah | 08.25.07 - 4:22 am | #

By the way, check the prison population and how many atheists you'll find locked up. About 0.2% Check the divorce rates - guess who has the lowest rates? Atheists - and Catholics.

And guess which group of women seek out abortion at the lowest rates? You guessed it, non-theists. And I got that stat from the Washington Times, of all places.

But if you are looking for the highest prison population, the highest divorce rate, and the highest number of women who seek abortion by religion - it's conservative Christianity, hands down, by a landslide.

So, what were you saying about morals?
Sarah | 08.25.07 - 4:28 am | #

The unanswered question is what is it that is impelling the fundementalist impulse world wide, and here in America. At the rank and file level, I believe it has to do with the idea of traction, a sense of being empowered, of control, traction and the need for organic, natural sense of community. The pace of change in the modern world leaves many feel like they have jumped out of an airplane, and they've got no traction, no parachute's, no sense of control.

It's a bi-product of modernism, which is most pronounced in this country. Middle Eastern populations are highly dis-empowered. They'll reach for anything that gives them a sense of empowerment - not just Islam, but suicide in the name of Islam, because at the moment they pull the trigger, there is a sense, however brief, of traction or control or power. Keep in mind that Palestinian per capita income is $1,800 per year.

In the United States its a decline of the middle class. Morality is a middle class issue - poor can't afford it, and the rich don't need it. When the middle class is threatened, the first instinct is a surge in concern for morality issues. The solution is, of course, empowering these groups with greater bargaining power. And here comes the crux. At the rank and file level the issue is empowerment/disempowerment factors. At the leadership level, its simply a matter of pure power, political in nature, and control over others. The wealthy are winning the class wars because they have excessive bargaining power - And are using that to gain ever greater bargaining power still.

On an international level, the Middle Eastern masses lack bargainign power, and that forces them to seek traction in Islam, and increasingly fundementalist Islam.

It is economic elites in the republican party who funded the seed money for the emergence of Fundementalism in this country. Their grabbing ever greater wealth, power and bargaining power, triggers an ever greater fundementalist surge. This is, in essence, the Neocon theory in practice, courtesy of Leo Strauss.

God's Warriors is intersting stuff, but figuring out what impells this surge in rightwing reactionary religion would be most interesting.

One other thing - pointing out how fundementalist Christians, aren't often anti-thetical to Christ's teaching would be helpful too. Christ replaced the 10 commandments with two. He then went on to give a few of his own unique commandments, such as, separate Religion from Civics, when you pray, pray in private, don't recognize hierarchy or titles, gather in small numbers (2 or 3; why? because 2 or 3 is a discussion, much more is a lecture), that his kingdom wasn't of this world. They also could have pointed out that the God of the New Testament relies heavily on use of parables to describe complex issues and theology, why would the God of the old testament not do the same, and if so, then literal biblical understanding is antithetical to Christianity.

Finally, Sex is important to humans. Given that, it should be very telling to Christians that Christ speaks so little of that, and so much against politics and politics in religion. Christ did cared little about sex, gay or otherwise. He seems to have had bigger fish to fry, like the misuse of power and prestige. Hmmmm.

Fundementalism is all about power first, traction second, and it uses ethics and morality they way the Wolf uses sheeps clothes. In the end, we see what we want to see. And so called fundementalist see right past the more obvious messages of the new testaments gnostic gospels, and instead looking straight into the book of genesis and other books of the old testament, simply because they are filled with fear and fear mongering.
Bubbles | 08.25.07 - 5:27 am | #

FALWELL: We have an alcohol-free zone, we have a tobacco-free zone, we have no co-ed dorms. If we catch a boy in a girl's dorm, we think about shooting him. We don't, but we think about it.

God works in mysterious but very timely ways.
jurassicpork | Homepage | 08.25.07 - 10:42 am | #

I was so glad to see this on CNN, and Amanpour is one of the few I respect.
Fundamentalism of ALL stripes are THE Problem fueling so much of the strife in the world.
And when Bush says he "Speaks to God", you have to realize that it's NOT the Christian God he's talking to, or even the vengeful Old Testament God who wants an eye for an eye (or twenty, as with the Jewish Fundies) and plays mean tricks on Man, like with poor Job, but considering how Bush is probably dyslexic, and has his directions backwards (Up is Down, etc.) he's probably kvetsching with Satan himself!
Bia | Homepage | 08.25.07 - 11:07 am | #

Lynchburger | 08.24.07 - 11:03 pm | #

...How come Lynchburger gets to post all that, and when I try I get a "Too many Line Breaks" message?

....Just wondrin'.
Bia | Homepage | 08.25.07 - 11:20 am | #

Lynchburger,

You are full of shit.... I think we ALL know enough history to know that religions are the cause of most of the wars in history not to mention the justification for killing native peoples around the earth and stealing their resources....grow the fuck up and take some responsibility for your crazy shit religion.
Shannon | 08.25.07 - 3:13 am | #

AMEN, AND AMEN!
Anonymous | 08.25.07 - 8:56 pm | #

The "Christian Right" are violent and justify violence to their ends. It is just that the violence done on a daily basis from coercion, blackmail, threatening, and outright violence is NOT COVERED By the News Media in America. There are books out there about the violence and crimes committed by those wo call themselves the "Christian Right." Yes, the "Christian Right" can justify just about any violent act and use the Bible to rationalize their inner violence. Tell me a "Christian" who is not violent, somehow or somewhere, and one will be talking to a liar!
Irish Gypsy | 08.25.07 - 9:44 pm | #

"...I am curious how the documentary is being received by fundamentalists.."

doh! Well, AIPAC and CAMERA's internet Israel attack squad are on to it:

CAMERA CNN ACTION ALERT...
http://www.standwithus.com/app/i...view.asp? ID=175
Anonymous | 08.25.07 - 9:45 pm | #

The "Christian Right" are crazies and wackos and are indeed responsible for most of the violence throughout the world. The "Christian Right" advocate that Israel NOT SEEK PEACE with its neighbors and Pat Robertson enjoyed going around killing people with the military in Latin America during the 1980s. Prime Minister Menachem Begin of the Israeli Government bought Falwell a jet in the 1980s and they were close allies as Falwell also preached the wiping out of the Palestinians. It is ironic how the secularists and the right-wing fundies see almost identically about the Zionist cause of Israel, and one wonders why Joe Lieberman is so loved by the Evangelicals down South? Yes, the "Christian right" advocate the killing and pillaging of people, the earth, and wiping out of civilization with nukes as we know it now. These crazies want an armageddon and an attack on Iran is about to bring the world to a close. I hope you are all happy with this sort of thinking that permeates American life.
Irish Gypsy | 08.25.07 - 9:52 pm | #

Lynchburger: if you limited your bible study to the three gnostic Gospels, excluding the fanciful Gospel of John which does agree with the other three, and the old testement, which Jesus overturned, and the rest of the new testement which was written by men, then you will find that right-wing-religious fundementalism has little basis or tie to Christ.

It is hate dressed up in religious clothes. The obsession with the old testement, and the oldest party of the old testement, is that's where you have to go in the bible in order to find justifications for fear and hate.

It is politics dressed up in the clothes of moralism. Your 'pastors' are buying, they are selling.

It is sheep dressed up in wolf's clothes.
Bubbles | 08.25.07 - 9:58 pm | #

typo:
I said: "the fanciful Gospel of John which does agree with the other three,..."

I meant to say: "the fanciful Gospel of John which does NOT agree with the other three..."
Bubbles | 08.25.07 - 10:00 pm | #

The one thing that just gnaws at me about the God's Warriors series is that Christiane Amanpour pronounces it "Moslem." WTF?? I'm of no religion at all, but I'm kinda scholarly fascinated by Islam, and the word "Moslem" is like fingers on a chalkboard to me. It's so 19th century or something. I mean, where did Amanpour pick up the pronunciation "Moslem"? The woman grew up in Iran for godsakes.
Corey | 08.26.07 - 1:03 am | #

The problem isn't religion. The problem is the churches.
Ach | 08.27.07 - 6:28 pm | #