Gravatar It's not fair to say that Tim blames MS for all the web's problems.

BTW, he did what you asked use to do yesterday. You wanted to know where the problems are in MSIE. When I read that, as you know, I couldn't believe you guys didn't know how thoroughly you had screwed Web developers by leaving MSIE in such a buggy condition. It's almost as if you wanted to force people to switch to whatever you have coming next, but in the meantime suffer so thoroughly that somehow we'll thank you when the next client from MS comes along.

Unfortunately your response which I'd characterize as Poor Poor Pitiful Me (after the Linda Ronstadt song) is not realistic when coming from a company that dwarves everyone else in this space, and has been convicted, for real, not in our imaginations, of antitrust. I hate to have to keep reminding you of that, but you did wrong in the browser space, whether you want to acknowledge it or not.


Gravatar He's not blaming you for all the web's problems, he's just blaming IE for not supporting recent CSS specs. I build consult on commercial web sites, and lack of CSS 2 support is a real PITA. We can insist that other businesses that hit out site use a modern browser, but when the most popular web browser doesn't suport CSS properly, our workload goes up, and the user's satisfaction goes down. Of course, my consulting billing goes up, so it's not all bad


Gravatar I'll just add my agreement to the 2 voices above. MsIE has significant flaws in its standards compliance in CSS (and PNG).

My personal belief is that this is considered a "feature" inside MS because, given IE's dominance, it's a way of pushing designers to work to the "IE standard" rather than the actual CSS standard, thus gating the growth of competing browsers.


Gravatar ASP.Net's server control rendering just enforces the above by sending out high-level markup ONLY to IE5+ and sending out HTML that lacks much of the formatting to other browsers. .NET skips style markup as simple as setting the width of a button for browsers other than IE, so many .NET pages look bad in browsers other than IE and the natural assumption is that Netscape (mozilla, opera, etc) is the cause when, in fact, the .NET framework is designed to leave out those important attributes except for IE.
There are too many very smart people at MS for me to believe this is innocent or an accident.


Gravatar While we're all commenting on this... just how hard is it to build to a spec? Having been pushing the limits of what MSIE can do during the past 12 months, I have found a lot of very cool stuff that you can do inside of a browser. At the same time, I'm more than a little annoyed, as many folks are, at how MSIE's standards support is simply lacking. Now I won't go and knock MSIE completely, as I'm more than surprised at how the spec's never bothered to include the very cool CSS expressions syntax that MSIE has built into itself, but that's another discussion completely...


Gravatar sirshannon, if you're reading these comments, please email me. I just saw the MS ASP.NET presentation, and would like more info on the UI Component rendering for different browsers.


Gravatar "While we're all commenting on this... just how hard is it to build to a spec?"

Probably not as hard as building a distributable application.

Much less getting universal deployment for such a client-side application.

Then again, each is likely not as difficult as when another group simultaneously writes a functional "standard" that they want you to fulfill....

(For content development, it's more straightforward to develop against a known implementation than against a known specification which has a whole set of varying implementations -- regardless of the fidelity of each of those implementations, the spec will always be one more degree removed from what people are actually seeing.)


Gravatar I agree with sirshannon. ASP.NET server controls spew forth pitifull output at best, even to IE5+. Ever tried to output a W3C compliant page using a an run-at-server form? The VIEWSTATE can't be removed, even when view state is disabled. HTML is mostly there. XHTML is damn near impossible for any real set of pages.

The only real option of to not use server side controls at all, which shoots your devel efficiency in the foot, of spend a whole lot of time writing/inheriting/overloading all of the RendeR() functions to yield something usable.

For that matter, the fact that server controls spit out html to begin with is a bad idea from the MVC standpoint. It would've been better to have them all output XML and transform those snippets via XSLT.


Gravatar I always thought it would be nice if IE could actually support CSS1 properly before being folded away in favor of the Next Big Thing. I mean, that spec's only been official for seven years, now.
The nasty side of me has always wondered if MS was intentionally trying to subvert the standards. It gets harder and harder to explain to new web workers that what works in IE won't necessarily work in any other browser, because of IE's penchant for getting things wrong.


Gravatar If not, what were all the witch trials about? http://freeinternet.250free.com/


Gravatar Telefonsex Fetisch - Telefonsex Anal - Telefonsex mit Bild
rel


Name:

Email:

URL:

Comment:  ? 

 

Commenting by HaloScan