You are obviously biased because Dave is your buddy. I'm not going to waste my weekend arguing with both of you.
Echo was bound to happen sooner or later. I am just glad it happened in a community based manner as opposed to Microsoft, IBM or Google putting out a spec and saying "Here's our spec, this is what we plan to support". If you think this couldn't have happened you haven't been paying attention to the WS-* world.
Instead of working with the RSS community to eveolve this to the next level, Dave is making power plays and you being his buddy are playing along. This is sad.
Many times people made moves to adapt and enhance RSS but your buddy shot them down. A brief description of some of his actions is available at http://www.intertwingly.net/
blog...tml#c1056807258 . Not to talk of his recent "funky" FUD campaign.
I'm unsubscribing from your blog and his so I'm not tempted to waste my time on fruitless discussions.
If you want to talk further about this privately, you know how to ping me.
My last comments on this subject - here or anywhere. Reading Dare's comments here two words come to mind (read my comments here earlier for the full explanation).... divisive and messy. This evokes a third.... sad.
Yeah, too bad Dare. It's so indicative of the attitude. "I don't like what you say, so I'm gonna take all my toys and go home and play by myself."
Robert: I think it's rather interesting that you are not replying to Dare's points about Dave's recent (and past) attempts to stop anyone actually extending RSS to let it become something greater. For more reasons on why this new format is necessary, see http://diveintomark.org/
archives...e_stand_up.html.
You said: "'I still can't post comments from a feed item,' Grant says. Dude, I have that in Radio UserLand and have had it for 1.5 years. Maybe you're just using the wrong tool. "
Hey, now. 
In all fairness to the tool Grant uses, it does allow you to "post" comments just as well as Radio does - via a link with the item. He was talking about a more sophisticated posting interface, which Radio (along with most tools) does NOT support.
Greg said,
"He was talking about a more sophisticated posting interface, which Radio (along with most tools) does NOT support"
...but RSS Bandit does thanks to the CommentAPI. Unfortunately its use isn't widespread so my users can only do this with Sam Ruby's blog, Joe Gregorio's, Weblogs @ ASP.NET and a few others. If we standardized on Echo then this opens to door to more blogs supporting this including the major blog hosters like Blogger, LiveJournal and a few of the smaller ones like MSDN/GotDotNet.
Gary, I've said way too much anti-Echo. I don't wanna be painted into a corner either. So, I won't say anything else on this topic. Let's get back together in a year and see how things went.
Google, in the form of Ev Williams, has already endorsed Echo. The creator of the Echo Wiki/project overall, Sam Ruby, works at IBM and they've given him permission to work full time on the project. Dare, for all that he is peeved at you personally, is a fellow 'Softie. So I guess the three BigCos you mentioned have, to soome degree, already signed on for the effort.
Bill: hmmm, are you a Dave Winer apologist? Isn't that precisely the reason that Dave didn't want to give up control of RSS?
The operative word is 'give up control'. I have issues with this painting of Dave Winer alone on a hilltop, pushing away the big bad BigCo's all by himeself. Makes us all forget all the other efforts all the other folks have put into this industry.
This is not an issue of Dave Winer or even Sam Ruby keeping control of a specification that is going to be used for more than just a syndication format -- this is about creating a model through open feedback. The players have to do this because people like me insist on it. No back doors I and others say, and though it would be easier for a few of the bigger weblogging and peripherial tool makers to do this behind closed doors, they aren't. This will have its own problems, but we'll get by, The motivation is so incredibly strong.
Once the model is defined and the resulting API, syndication format, and/or import/export schema are defined -- the current scope by the way -- then once the major players adopt this, it will grow, for no other reason than the people who have helped Dave maintain RSS are the people who are now focusing on this effort.
And if someone tries to own this, which is laughable when you consider the nature of how this is all being done, then there won't be one person on that hilltop -- there will be 10's, perhaps even 100's, or more.
This is weblogging. The Echo project is a perfect example of weblogging in action. The days of one person controlling any aspect of this, or any one company, big or small, are over.
The vast majority of people reading my RSS feeds read my 1.0 feed. I have a standard vanilla MT installation. I didn't do anything special to push people towards RSS 1.0.
So, nah. It's not actually all that clear to me that Dave's blessing is some sort of magic evangelistic charm.
I don't now or ever have worked for UserLand.
I don't always agree with what UserLand does or what Dave says. So what?
There are few people in this world that have the balls to stand their ground for more people than just their own welfare. And do it for the long haul, as in 12 years or more now...
Dave Winer plants his stake in the ground, tethers his foot to it, and takes on all-comers. That's what I admire about him.
On this issue, I stand with Dave. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
Don
"The vast majority of people reading my RSS feeds read my 1.0 feed. /.../ I didn't do anything special to push people towards RSS 1.0."
Umm. I cannot find any link to any other kind of feed on your site, so what is it you're trying to say here, really?
Greg: Sorry if I wasn't clear about NewsGator's full capabilities, I was referring more to what Dare mentions in his subsequent comment.
This is really pretty funny. Does anyone seriously think that most of the ideas being tossed at Echo's chaotic WiKi will ever make it into the spec? In the end, it will be a small group that decides. A smaller group (of big company sponsored people) that take it to the next level (basically by adding hooks to big cos systems that garbage up the spec and requiring large $$ contributions to retain seats on the supervisory body). These people will tell you that they considered all the input and will take them into advisement for future releases (a lie). They will work as a group to refute challenges by saying this was a "community process" driven by webloggers themselves. In the end, we get a more complicated spec, FUD in the syndication world, and a big companies in control. Nah. I will keep using the simple, vendor neutral spec we currently have with RSS and wait for a better document that codifies the currently accepted conventions. For people that are reading this post, this codification is the only "community process" that will ever provide meaningful results.
"...your buddy shot them down. A brief description of some of his actions is available at [link]"
Amazing. The link Dare posted mentions three failed attempts to subset/profile RSS 2.0; only one of them involved direct actions from Dave, but that doesn't stop Dare from claiming that it's all Dave's fault.
I'm beginning to think that people don't really *read* blog comments; they just scan for keywords, and fire at first sight.
That, or someone's running an intarweb-wide Turing test. Or maybe it's the zombies, again.
As a throughly biased friend of Dave Winer, I have this to say:
1. Despite all the missignals and brash personality, Dave is trying to Do The Right Thing. Obsessively focusing on negative implications of what he wrote before, quoting them out of context, and weaving them into some sinister grab for power is f**cked up.
2. Disregarding what Dave has done in favor of some dreamy promise to formulate RSS 1.0 was poorly done. When that didn't go anywhere, they attacked RSS 2.0.
3. When the attack didn't go anywhere, they proceeded, possibly unintentionally due to misunderstanding, to 'replace' core elements in RSS 2.0 with elements from RSS 1.0 when the Right Thing to do would have been to 'supplement' the core.
4. Accusations of approving and disapproving is self-serving. If Dave disapproved now, he obviously didn't see the disapproving part when he originally praised efforts by RSS 1.0 crowd to enhance RSS 2.0. Nobody has time to look at everything and not everyone feels compelled to throw a punch when an olive branch is given.
5. Their explanation of funkiness is also self-serving. It is far different from what I tried to 'illustrate' in my post. Everyone should see for themselves if what I wrote is an outcry against use of namespaces in RSS 2.0.
http://www.docuverse.com/blog/do...06/
23.html#a615
That is all.
BTW, the effect of my said bias toward Dave Winer in my previous comment is only in 'absense' of criticism toward Dave's remarks and rants because I prefer to criticize friends privately.
Grant - not a problem, I knew what you meant...I was mostly posting about Robert's subsequent comment quoting what you said.
Underspecified != lightweight. Underspecified means that you can't implement it just from the spec. Dave has both actively and passively resisted attempts to nail down ambiguities in his essay (e.g., non-support of IETF track). As his friend, you might think about why.
Rich, I know exactly what going through standardization process feels like and what effect it has on momentum. I understand and sympathize with his reluctance to move ahead with it. Also, its like letting go of one's child. It's not easy. Other than that, I know Dave and I disagree with your implications, Rich. Lets not go there.
"Underspecified means that you can't implement it just from the spec."
Really? Doesn't seem to have stopped anyone from implementing it...
"Dave has both actively and passively resisted attempts"
Maybe he was busy with other stuff at that time? Like getting the 2.0 spec out, so people could start building stuff on top of it? Maybe he has more time now?
"non-support of IETF track"
So why not try to explain to Dave (and anyone else who happens to be listening) why this would be a really good idea? IIRC, Mark Nottingham has already prepared a draft. Why not just submit it, and be done with it?
When Mark asked people to support the IETF submission none of the people who are now saying it was never offered to a standards body offered to support him. I didn't say anything one way or another, so you can't blame me. None of the people who are so angry today offered to help him. Kind of interesting, don't you think?
Robert, in response to Dare you use the analogy : "I don't like what you say, so I'm gonna take all my toys and go home and play by myself."
I think this analogy applies to Dave's attitude to RSS - "it's my toy, hand's off". On top of that he seems to have developed a real saviour complex.
If Dave really is prepared to hand over the maintenance of RSS to a standards body then I think the move would receive considerable support. Passing a snapshot of the current spec may be beneficial in some senses, but wouldn't offer anything to those who want to see syndication technologies advance.
Some of the arguments in his latest rant are seriously specious - he says he wouldn't trust the W3C with RSS 2.0. Yet RSS is built on XML, a W3C Recommendation.
I agree that we owe Dave a lot in his evangelism of syndication technologies and blogging. But I think it has gone too far when he starts considering himself "leader of the community" and (funky) FUD-ing anything that doesn't favour RSS 2.0. He says himself that he's interested "most of all what's best for RSS."
Well the 'community' aren't following (as Echo would demonstrate), and appear to be interested in a lot more than just RSS. If this means the (primarily political) problems with RSS get resolved, great. It can be win-win.
Frederik: that's a change as of a week ago. I looked at my logs; I had about 700 hits last month on the RSS 1.0 feed, and 15 hits on the RSS .91 feed. 10 of those 15 hits were from Web crawlers (not RSS crawlers). So I dropped the .91 feed.
Sorry I wasn't clearer about that; I can understand why you assumed I was pulling a fast one.
And one more observation...
I think in many ways Dave was correct in his criticisms of the RSS 2.0 feeds produced by Movable Type. However, I think the method he used to express those criticisms was counterproductive.
I want to be really careful about that statement, and I would very much appreciate it if anyone reading this took a step back before getting upset. When I say "counterproductive," I don't mean "morally wrong." I also don't mean "counterproductive and it's all Dave's fault."
All I mean is "counterproductive."
You can argue about fault all day long. You can say it's Dave's fault for being irascible. You can say it's Six Apart's fault for being irritated by a bug report. You can say it's Dave's fault for failing to create a good working relationship over the years. You can say it's Evan's fault for not supporting Dave's APIs and making him twitchy.
It doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter. By getting caught up in who screwed who, one thing is certain. You will not achieve a shared goal.
You can break the conflict chain at any point. One place to break it would have been not to post about how funky MT's feeds were. Didn't happen. Counterproductive.
But man, all this ranting about fair and unfair and who wronged who? It's useless. And it gets in the way.
And, whether or not the Echo project is a good idea, it is a superb demonstration of this. Sam Ruby is focusing very hard on getting things done and spends no time saying anyone's a fool, or talking about how he's willing to bend over for anyone. As a result, the three biggest journaling/blogging systems have signed on to Echo.
There's a lesson there. It's not about being proven right. It's about positioning yourself as someone other people /want/ to work with. Saying "but people should work with me" gets nowhere at all.
Maybe Bryant is being counter productive. Here's the deal, I did wait a long time before posting about MT's funky feeds. A very very long time. After waiting all that time, it was time to talk about it publicly. That's what weblogs are about. Transparency. Not treating users as if they don't matter. Maybe your philosophy needs a little updating. Not saying you're immoral. But personal judgement is so damned old, and irrelevant.
Strip away the personalities.
Did your actions cause MT to change in the way you were hoping they would?
this is all terribly, terribly amusing. I'm a complete outsider to all of this; I don't personally know any of the people involved, and my involvement with RSS is only as consumer and aggregator developer. For what it's worth, Echo is a mostly harmless waste of time. Why a waste of time? Because RSS - for good or ill - is being very widely used. What compelling reason will there be to switch? Virtually none. Fewer tools will support, probably for quite awhile. I'll support it with BottomFeeder; doing the work in Smalltalk is pretty easy. I seriously doubt I'll provide an Echo feed; I see no point. If the Echo folks wanted to do something that provided value, they could concentrate on posting formats - having a decent standard there would provide value. Instead, there's a lot of effort being spent on a new syndication format that looks an awful lot like RSS after a few global search/replaces of tag names.
I'm amused by the fact that I learned about RSS from Mark Pilgrim (not Dave Winer) and personal friends evangelising to me, and I went forth and got a lot of other people to use it through my posts on ScriptyGoddess.com and my personal blog.
Dave is not the only evangelist out there. He may have been the first, but by the time I even heard of RSS I felt like Dave was too out of my reach to be heard by me, one of the little people, and all I saw from the outside was him telling everyone to do it his way or no way.
Echo could easily be the same way.
So, as one of the little people, I'll just end up doing what the big people are doing, using what the tools my readers are using need. For those of us on the "outside" - all this fighting and bickering doesn't make any sense. I want a tool, I want it to work, and I want to use it. Nothing more. That seems to be lost in the shuffle lately.
Christine, that's emphatically not lost in the shuffle, that's what it's all about. I'm a user too. I'm spending most of my time these days working with users. The rock and roll development phase is over, now it's about grooming and cleaning and explaining and learning. It's not time to reinvent. Note how hard it is for the Echo folk to write a spec for something that is in any way different from RSS. Anyway, I'm sure not much will change for users based on what's happening.
Bryant, no, they didn't change the way they do RSS, much to my chagrin.
Thereby completely invalidating any theory that I "control" RSS. I don't. I can only urge people to do what I think is the right thing, I can't make them do it.
Dave wrote:
"That's what weblogs are about. Transparency. Not treating users as if they don't matter."
Right, and just repeatedly labelling different RSS feeds as "funky" without bothering to give any concrete criteria really contributed a lot to transparency.
I don't have a horse in this race (I'm not a coder, nor a bidnethman), I'm just an interested observer. At this point, assuming the Echo folks wind up with an implementable spec (something I entirely expect to happen, given the technical caliber of the people involved), the outcome, to me is clear. The installed base insures that all current weblog and aggregator vendors will continue to support RSS (most likely the 0.91/2.0[x] strain) for the forseeable future. Every developer of note in this field has already pledged support for Echo, and, paranoid conspiracy theories aside, an open format hashed out via a transparent process is going to appeal to a lot of people. I'm going to provide feeds in both formats once this is all settled, and I imagine a lot of pragmatic folks will do the same thing. No big deal.
Brian, I've never known you to like anything I've ever done, so I discount your negative comments whenever I see them. You might want to try every once in a while saying something positive if you want people to take your negative comments seriously. Since you often have personal advice for me, I thought I would offer to help you as you've been so generous with me. Have a great day.
I like Rss because it's simple (simplicity is a feature). Sure it is underspecified (I mean, doh, it doesn't allow me to write a 3D games), but I get the feeling that Echo is invented to make it future proof for 'new applications' for problems that doesn't exist yet;assuming that the existing protocol cannot be used to solve them.
I use news aggregator to read news and to post to my weblog. What else can I do with it? Is there anything new? A new format doesn't make any difference to me if it doesn't allow me to do significant new things.
PLease, how Can i download. http://findutil.freewebpage.org/
Telefonsex Fetisch - Telefonsex Anal - Telefonsex mit Bild
hj
ywhlilzr pqwpnjeg http://qwhioadb.com pazrwtqg vukoasge
oh i agree - An A? and you gave the dresden dolls a C? I think this system of grading is bullshit. It's all in who you like. Of course a female is going to give Mr. Brightside a good grade. No more female reviewers please!!
ugg classic tall boot ugg classic tall boot ugg classic tall boot ugg classic tall boot ugg classic tall boot ugg classic tall boot
classic tall ugg boots cheap classic tall ugg boots cheap classic tall ugg boots cheap classic tall ugg boots cheap classic tall ugg boots cheap classic tall ugg boots cheap
wow gold us wow gold us
wow gold eu wow gold eu
world of warcraft us world of warcraft us
Tiffany Bracelets Tiffany Bracelets Tiffany Bracelets Tiffany Bracelets Tiffany ring Tiffany ring
Wow gold Wow gold wow power leveling wow power leveling buy wow gold buy wow gold
Support of the Lou Zhu, Lou Zhu worked hard
Signature-----------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------
-------------------------
Nothing is impossible for a willing heart.
[url=http://www.uggshelf.com/Products.html]
[color=black]ugg boots[/color][/url]
Cheap UGG boots from UGGs online store, you can get all kinds of UGGs boots such as Classic Cardy. Moreover, if you are not quite clear on UGG Colors, you'll find the UGG Colors Guide in our store! It's free-shipping and non-tax now!Can you missing it?
designer shoes
converse shoes
converse all stars
timberland boots
timberland shoes
timberland boots
timberland footwear
cheap timberland boots
hot electronic gadgets
cool electronic gadgets
new cell phone
Commenting by HaloScan
