Note: If you wouldn't say it to someone's face, don't say it here. Comments deleted on a whim.
That Morris game was a *great* game; I remember watching it with my grandparents. If I remember right, he was the MVP of the series. Then we let him go to free agency, right?
I'm seriously looking forward to this series Aaron!
It's ironic because early last week, I went through baseballreference.com and looked at all of the Twins rosters, hitters and pitchers, with the idea of doing a Top 100 list. After jotting down the names of about 120 or so, I realized the task was incredibly daunting, so I'll leave that work up to you! Good luck!
Some things I noticed. The Twins have a lot of pitchers that had one, maybe two, really good years, but not a lot that sustained it for more than three years. Roger Erickson had a great rookie year for the Twins at age 19 or 20, and then what? And, how about relievers, like Ron Perranoski, or Mike Marshall, or Jeff Reardon (who, after looking at the ERA and other numbers, was not very good, except in the post season).
And, I noticed that Becker wasn't as horrible as I remember. And, Stahoviak actually had one very solid season!
It enjoyed just finding little things, so I'm very excited about your list!
That Morris game was a *great* game; I remember watching it with my grandparents. If I remember right, he was the MVP of the series. Then we let him go to free agency, right?
Yeah, that game is probably my first significant memory as a Twins fan, and I think it's likely that the Twins' success in 1991 (when I was just starting to pay attention) made me such a huge baseball fan.
Morris went 18-12 with a 3.43 ERA in 246.2 innings in 1991, finished fourth in the AL Cy Young balloting, won the World Series MVP, and then signed with the Blue Jays as a free agent on December 18, 1991.
I'm seriously looking forward to this series Aaron!
Me too. I just put the finishing touches on the write-up for player #40 and enjoyed doing it.
After jotting down the names of about 120 or so, I realized the task was incredibly daunting, so I'll leave that work up to you! Good luck!
Yeah, it took quite a while just to narrow the field down and then start to rank those guys. It was kind of fun going through all the names and careers, though.
Some things I noticed. The Twins have a lot of pitchers that had one, maybe two, really good years, but not a lot that sustained it for more than three years. Roger Erickson had a great rookie year for the Twins at age 19 or 20, and then what? And, how about relievers, like Ron Perranoski, or Mike Marshall, or Jeff Reardon (who, after looking at the ERA and other numbers, was not very good, except in the post season).
Yep, and a fair number of hitters who did the same. I'm sure that's probably the case with most teams, but it does seem like the Twins had more one-year wonder (or maybe three-year wonder) guys than you'd expect.
And, I noticed that Becker wasn't as horrible as I remember. And, Stahoviak actually had one very solid season!
Yep, they both cracked my top 150. It's amazing how different the actual numbers are compared to my perception in many cases. I had it in my head that Stahoviak was a lot worse than he actually was, and guys like Reardon, Mudcat Grant, and Dean Chance didn't have nearly the careers with the Twins that I thought.
So, will there be a statistical correlation to these rankings, say WS or RC/RA?
And Seth, that's Scott Erickson who was a 3-year wonder. Roger Erickson had a great run in Minnesota -- who could forget Morgan Mundane? But I suppose none of you whippersnappers would know anything about that.
Yeah, Scott Erickson was excellent his first three seasons with the Twins. But Roger Erickson was 14-13 with a 3.96 ERA in 265+ innings as a 21 year old rookie in 1978. Then he went 3-10 followed by 7-13 (with a 3.25 ERA though)and 3-8 (3.84 ERA) in 1981. After starting 1982 4-3, he was traded to the Yankees.
And Aaron, good names on the "I thought they did more" list. There are a lot of those too!
And Seth, that's Scott Erickson who was a 3-year wonder. Roger Erickson had a great run in Minnesota
See, this is a perfect example. In your mind Scott Erickson had a three-year run, while Roger Erickson had a "great run." Meanwhile, in reality Scott pitched 979.1 innings for the Twins and Roger pitched only 712.
So, will there be a statistical correlation to these rankings, say WS or RC/RA?
Yeah, I used a few key things like WARP and Win Shares to line everyone up, and then adjusted for other stuff.
One interesting addition, which could prove to be impossible to get the information, would be to include their top single season salary.
Expect many of the great ones never made more than $50-60k per year.
Great idea Aaron. This will help us get through February and March. Anyone else have a case of Winter/Twins Offseason Blahs? I can't wait for April. :)
Good idea Aaron. My brother and a friend of mine often talk about great Twins of the past and we kind of wonder if the Twinks are the most underwhelming franchise to have played in three WS and won two.
I think Toronto has at least as many great teams and players and they've been around for 15 yrs less. Or look at the Red Sox just since 1961 - 3 WS, 1 win and there is no comparison in players. Obviously since the early 90's, salary has a lot to do with it with the finance-poor Twins, but they let Clemons go over a salary dispute and did a number of equal stupid moves after their WS appearance in the 80's.
I think a good study for you Aaron would be the on-field similarities between the Twinks and the NY Mets. They have had similar runs of long-term ineptitude and short-term success. It would be all the more interesting considering the Mets have never really had the finance issues of the Twins and they've had about the same results. Just a thought.
If your criteria is franchises who have won 2 WS and been in 3, that cuts down your sample size immediately. The Marlins would immediately come to mind having won 2, and in a much smaller time period. Their selloff and brief history would make such an exercise tough. You could look at the Twins from the other direction and call them the most overachieving franchise given the above - especially given the 3 straight divisional championships with no big names (Santana came along in year 3, but Hunter/Dougie/A.J./Koskie/Jones/etc. are not your superstars)
I think you should still rank the Morris's/Chili's of the world but just downgrade them based on lack of years. Obviously I'm not going to change your mind as you've probably already made your list, but some things are just too important to totally disregard. Where do you draw the line with Black Jack's 1 year, Chili's 2 or Molitor's 3? Or Santana's relevant 4? Or Mack's 5? For example I quickly just put together my top40 without too much reasearch and I had Morris at 20, Chili at 32 and Molitor at 33. Of course I may be putting more emphasis on postseason heroics (or lack thereof) and you may be looking at a more strictly analytical ranking.
We have two Roger Ericksons in play. One of them was a pitcher for the Twins and the other was on the morning show on WCCO for about 100 years.
I think you should still rank the Morris's/Chili's of the world but just downgrade them based on lack of years.
I ranked everyone, including Morris and Davis. They just didn't make my top 40. With the number of guys who had five or more good seasons with the team, I don't think someone who was very good for 1-2 years makes the cut.
As usual, your mileage may vary.
Good grief, when do you go to class? When do you sleep? When do you carouse? Why don't you break down the top 40 babes of all time or Jessica Alba's 100 greatest outfits? Anything to get our minds off the soon to be third place Minnesota Twins.
How about the converse? Who are the worst players the Twins have invested significant playing time into? My vote for #1 all-time worst Twins hitter...
Mat Walbeck. Dude's OPS+ was 54 in over 2100 at bats. Had probably the worst season by a position player in Twins history in 1994, a big reason why a team that still had effective versions of Puckett, Knoblauch and Hrbek, along with a monster 81 games from Shane Mack (who I am REALLY hoping to see on your top-40 list) finished a shortened season 7 games below .500.
Good grief, when do you go to class? When do you sleep?
I've been done with school since May, so no class. And I have never slept.
Why don't you break down the top 40 babes of all time or Jessica Alba's 100 greatest outfits?
I actually thought about doing an NCAA-style tournament for women, but then decided I didn't want to deal with all the complaints.
How about the converse? Who are the worst players the Twins have invested significant playing time into?
Yeah, I'm also planning some related entries on an all-time Twins team and the all-time worst Twins.
An all-time worst team would be difficult, because there are guys who were so bad that even the Twins realized they had to be released...so they probably didn't have enough time to compile the awful stats they otherwise would have. For example, where do you rank Sean Bergman? And do you bring financial issues into it? He was considered our top free agent signing, along with Butch Huskey (who should also be mentioned in this discussion). His stats with the Twins were horrendous. Can't get any worse. But it was only over half a season. So is that worse than 5 years of Rivas? As for Bergman's overall impact on the team, no. As for Bergman being a worse Twin than Rivas, I guess I'd say yes.
An all-time worst team would be difficult, because there are guys who were so bad that even the Twins realized they had to be released
I think you'd have to look at the "worst" the same as you look at the "best." Someone isn't the best if they hit .325 in 100 at-bats. The best is the guy who brings the most total value to the table, however you want to judge that.
So while Bergman was ridiculously bad, he was only bad for 68 innings and that can only have so much damage.
I am giddy to see if David Lamb made the top ten.
Here's my top40 with probably too much emphasis on teams that had high postseason success
1. Harmon Killebrew
2. Kirby Puckett
3. Rod Carew
4. Tony Oliva
5. Kent Hrbek
6. Frank Viola
7. Jim Kaat
8. Bob Allison
9. Johan Santana
10. Jim Perry
11. Brad Radke
12. Rick Aguilera
13. Zoilo Versailles
14. Gary Gaetti
15. Bert Blyleven
16. Earl Battey
17. Torii Hunter
18. Chuck Knoblach
19. Shane Mack
20. Jack Morris
21. Brian Harper
22. Eddie Guardado
23. Tom Brunanski
24. Greg Gagne
25. Camilo Pascual
26. Cesar Tovar
27. Jacque Jones
28. Corey Koskie
29. Larry Hisle
30. Jeff Reardon
31. Roy Smalley
32. Chili Davis
33. Paul Molitor
34. Mudcat Grant
35. Kevin Tapani
36. Dan Gladden
37. Dean Chance
38. Matt Lawton
39. Dave Goltz
40. Jimmie Hall
Justme--I think you're confusing Roger Erickson with Steve Cannon. Morgan Mundane was a "regular" on the Cannon Mess in the afternoon, not one of Rog Erickson's characters.
For those of you under 40, we're talking about WCCO, of course.
Yeah, I think you'd have to go with a cumulative view of negative impact. So no Boone, Bergman, or Butch. I would think the cutoff would have to be similar to the "All-time greatest" list - at least one season's worth of plate appearances for consideration. More weight obviously given to the mulitple offenders. More weight still given to exceptionally bad players on otherwise decent looking teams. For example, Matt Walbeck's '94 season is worse than Guzman's '99 season, because pretty much everyone on the '99 team sucked. Plus Guzman actually contributed to a couple teams that were pretty good.
Imagine the putridity...
C-Matt Walbeck
1B-David McCarty
2B-Luis Rivas
3B-Scott Leius
SS-Danny Thompson
LF-Jim Holt
CF-Ted Uhlaender
RF-Willie Norwood
Wow I didn't know LEN3 graced AG.com! How do you grade TR's hotstove, LEN3?
Nate,
Couple things jump out...Blyleven has to be higher, in the Viola-Kaat range at least. Also, Gagne over Koskie? That doesn't make any sense at all to me. Rick Aguilera is much too high for my taste, as is Guardado and Reardon. Some other little things (like Dan Gladden even making the list). But all-in-all, that's a decent rough springboard.
C'mon La Velle, let's wait and see the greatness of Tony Batista before we call the Twins a third place team. Plus, you can never underestimate the positive impact that NOT having Luis Rivas on your 40 man roster can have on a team.
C'mon La Velle, let's wait and see the greatness of Tony Batista before we call the Twins a third place team.
Good point. If Batista gets 400+ at bats, I wouldn't be too surprised to see the Tigers finish ahead of them in 3rd. Never underestimate how much damage an OBP black hole can do to your lineup. There's a reason why the 2004 Expos couldn't score many runs, even with a guy like Batista (with the 6th best OPS in that lineup) "driving in" over 100 of them.
sounds like a fun project and i look forward to the results.
i'm sure he won't make the top 40, but the most santana-like season in the years before johan had to have been tommy "the blade" hall's 1970 season in which he was one start away from an e.r.a. title. check out the numbers if you've forgotten and especially check the retrosheet.org website to see the run he had as a starter at the end of that season. from the top of my head, he had 155ip, 94 hits, 184k and 11 wins! as far as i know, johan is the only twin ever to have numbers remotely like that! alas, it was only one season...
Not the Batista bashing again. I'm surprised someone didn't put him on the all-time worst team before he even stepped on the diamond. Isn't there anything better to talk about that rehashing the same argument? If he's as bad as you claim, Glenn Williams will beat him out in Spring Training and the Twins will call it a $350,000 experiment.
Fortunately, there are more fun things to talk about. The all-time best team. This is my line-up:
1. Rod Carew 2B
2. Kirby Puckett CF
3. Tony Oliva RF
4. Harmon Killebrew DH
5. Kent Hrbek 1B
6. Bob Allison LF
7. Gary Gaetti 3B
8. Zoillo Versailles SS
9. Earl Battey C
Johan Santana SP
Joe Nathan RP
Not the Batista bashing again. I'm surprised someone didn't put him on the all-time worst team before he even stepped on the diamond. Isn't there anything better to talk about that rehashing the same argument? If he's as bad as you claim, Glenn Williams will beat him out in Spring Training and the Twins will call it a $350,000 experiment.
A few things on this ...
One, you don't have to respond to every mention of Tony Batista. I'm as sick of the whole "oh no, not another Batista bashing" thing as you are of people bashing Batista.
Two, I'll take as much action as you want on the Twins not cutting Batista. They are committed to him enough not to have brought in any other third-base candidates during the offseason, and from the way Ryan has been talking they avoided going after guys like Koskie because he made a promise to Batista. If you think they're going to do all that and then cut him based on a few bad games down in Florida, I think you're wrong.
Three, if the alternative to Batista sucking is the Twins cutting him, wasting $350,000, and then turning the job over to Glenn Williams ... well, then it's just as big a mess as playing Batista there every day anyway.
On a more civil note, your all-time lineup looks good.
That is a damn good team, cmathewson.
Koop,
yeah, I know Gladden has no business on the top40, I've always called him the most overrated Twin ever, but something about leaving the leadoff hitter off the only 2 pro champions this town has seen since the Lakers left just didn't seem right so I snuck him and his terrible stats in. As for Gagne, his numbers don't jump out, but I thought he was the glue that kept that infield together during his time. Although I definitely overrated him due to also owning 2 World Series rings I still think he's a top40 Twin. And as I placed Bert at 15 I knew I was overrating him, but somehow I just couldn't bump anybody behind him. It was a combo of G-man's 87 ALCS MVP and kickass website that kept him ahead of be home by eleven. Zoilo had his MVP and the other starters (Kaat, Perry, Viola) didn't seem as journeyman as Bert for some reason. I have no good explanation why. I guess you're right about Aggie though, I think closers are overrated as well.
except that kirby would hit into too many double plays in the two slot. maybe hit him leadoff...
of course by saying overrating Bert, I mean underrating him.
You got an edit button on that thing?
Its gonna cost you.
I like the rankings. I may be alone in this, but I would move Knoblauch up a few notches. Looking back, he actually had a pretty amazing 7 seasons in MN, with a ROY, GG, and of course a WS ring to go along with a close to .400 OBP. He even had 2 years of OPS+ of 138 and 142 from a middle infield spot. He ran himself out of town and subsequently forgot how to throw, but he puts up a pretty good fight with Carew (still losing) as all-time 2B. I'll be interested to see where you rank him Aaron.
Gagne has to be in the Top 40. He was as solid as they come, and you have to remember that he played in an era where most SS barely hit their weight.
Thanks for the link, Aaron, it will be interesting to see if Rod Carew is a higher-ranked Twin than he is an Angel, I assume Bert will be higher in your poll than he ws in ours:
http://www.halosheaven.com/story...12/7/34534/
1668
One, you don't have to respond to every mention of Tony Batista. I'm as sick of the whole "oh no, not another Batista bashing" thing as you are of people bashing Batista.
Point taken. It just irked me this time around when we're going along have a great time talking about all the great and some of the lousy former Twins and then, out of nowhere someone rips a Batista and won't own up to it. Well I say, he who smelt it dealt it.
Two, I'll take as much action as you want on the Twins not cutting Batista. They are committed to him enough not to have brought in any other third-base candidates during the offseason, and from the way Ryan has been talking they avoided going after guys like Koskie because he made a promise to Batista. If you think they're going to do all that and then cut him based on a few bad games down in Florida, I think you're wrong.
I'm just going on what Ryan said in the chat. Namely, he didn't want to bring Koskie in because the had made a commitment to give Batista a chance to prove that he can do for the Twins what he did over his major league career. And he said if Batista can't do it in spring training, he'll make a move, but he's happy with his in-house options, especially Williams. When asked why Ryan didn't sign Branyan, he specifically mentioned Williams again as better than Branyan.
You can disagree with Ryan. I happen to if he was offered what Melvin paid for Koskie. And I don't see any harm in signing Branyan to a minor league deal as additional insurance. But That's not what Ryan wants to do.
And I hold out some hope for Williams. i don't think the way he played before he got hurt was a fluke. He really looked like he knew what he was doing. But I could be wrong, of course
i'll put in my two cents for bert over perry, viola, and radke. bert never really had a bad year with minnesota, and those first 6 years were very impressive. bert will eventually be in the hall and he pitched 9+ years in minnesota, including the best years of his career.
L.E.N. III
If that's true you just got a whole lotta blog cred.
Can I vote for a NCAA tournament style hot girl competition? Who cares about the backlash?
Elite Eight:
Penelope Cruz
Scarlett Johansson
Elizabeth Hurley
Angelina Jolie
Jessica Alba
Catherine Zeta-Jones
Halle Berry
Jessica Simpson
First off, I still think that the Mets/Twinks comparison would be a great research article on HBT. DiggityDIno's comment that you have to go after another team that has had 2 WS wins isn't irrelevant. If you look around at other teams that have had several WS appearances in the last 40 years, they are usually teams that have a history of competetiveness - with the Mets and Twins as two notable exceptions. The Marlins is a horrible example as they BOUGHT a championship, sold it off, and then fell into another one, then proceeded to start selling off that team - self-induced medicrity doesn't count. I think you get the point Aaron.
Second, just looking at Matt R's top 8 hot girls makes me wonder if you should have some sort of age cap for reading your blog. I'm 36 and sometimes I feel like I'm an old fart reading some of this stuff. Maybe it's just me, but women who have slut written all over them just don't do it for me and that covers over half this list (No offense Matt). Something that makes a woman extremely desirable is what she holds back and leaves to your imagination. When you've seen everything that she has to offer, there is no where for your fantasy to go, but down. (Really no offense Matt - more commenting on me). But I digress...
Thanks for the kind words, Aaron. If you can figure out a better way to calculate the top n players than I did (sigma win shares), let me know, eh?
Aaron,
Definitely looking forward to seeing where you take this and especially where the second-tier stars (guys like Gaetti, Brunansky, Hisle, and Smalley) fall.
One suggestion would be that you do an afterward to include some of the great guys who never had the chance to play in Minnesota, but who belong to the franchise all the same: Rice, Goslin, Johnson, Peckinpaugh, Yost, Sievers, Judge, Manush, Harris, Travis, etc. The Twins have a greater claim to that legacy than the Nationals do, despite the posturing the MLB was doing last year.
If anything else, it would spawn some great debate. You've only got three outfield spots...so do you go with Goslin, Puckett, and Rice? Goslin, Puckett, and Oliva? Or Rice, Puckett, and Allison? Who's the first baseman - Judge or Hrbek?
Just a thought.
Random Twins fact: The team's only had one walk-off grandslam ever, and it happened way back in their first year in Minnesota, when the immortal Julio Becquerer hit a pinch hit shot.
Useless thought - maybe include a player's best game ever or best stretch ever or something like that.
As much as Puckett was my (now vaugly shattered) childhoos icon/hero, I don't think you can possibly say he was the second best Twins player of all time. No way he was better than Carew.
But I won't spend too much time dissecting that list. I don't have the fortitude to go through all 40 of my own, so despite JJ's appearance in there, I'll recind.
"The team's only had one walk-off grandslam ever, and it happened way back in their first year in Minnesota, when the immortal Julio Becquerer hit a pinch hit shot."
The Killer hit one inside-the-park in the other half of that double dip (yes, there are a few old farts hanging out here).
And I do not ever again want to see Knoblauch and Carew mentioned in the same sentence.
This is going to be fun.
And all this old-school WCCO talk is amusing me to no end. I shall now read you a list of school closings, and you will be disappointed that none of them are yours:
"Annandale, public and parochial."
"Anoka, two hours late, and no morning kindergarten." etc.
All time best and all time worst. Battlin' Dave Boswell has to be in the all time best just for getting into a scuffle with Billy. That has to count for quite a bit.
My nominee for the worst would have to be Tom Nieto. At a game in the Dome during his hay-hour, I was very nicely positioned along the first base line over the dugout. After another weakling popup, Tommy's speciality, I spied the first baseman, one G.B., verrrrry closely examining his glove so as not to reveal how amusing he found such utter ineptitude. Honorable Mention to Houston Jimenez.
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