The battle is still on.
ben wolfson | Homepage | 12.11.06 - 3:53 pm | #

Alright, I guess that's settled.
Adam Kotsko | Homepage | 12.11.06 - 4:06 pm | #

I'm drawn to instances in which both meanings work. Such as, "he was begging the question of sex when he walked into her kitchen naked."
Brad | 12.11.06 - 4:37 pm | #

Are there any non-sexual examples of a dual meaning?
Adam Kotsko | Homepage | 12.11.06 - 4:58 pm | #

Elections.
Andrew | 12.11.06 - 5:19 pm | #

I don't want to open up a war on two fronts, but I'd like to see some action taken against the use of "to no end," to mean "a great deal" (where "no end" would be more appropriate), rather than "without purpose."

This particular misuse annoys me to no end.
voyou | Homepage | 12.11.06 - 5:35 pm | #

I agree with you Adam, the recent meaning of "begging the question" is simply illiterate; it can never replace the original meaning. At best it can just destroy it. But it will never be the case that begging the question means begging for the question. Certainly not in anyone's kitchen in the circumstances proposed above, Brad. Is that a quote form a bad novel, or what?
Mortimer Shy | Homepage | 12.11.06 - 8:21 pm | #

I didn't even listen to Yorke's solo album once all the way through.
ben wolfson | Homepage | 12.12.06 - 1:43 am | #

In a footnote to "Kant's Transcendental Proof of Realism" Kenneth Westphal claims that the "demands a further question" use is British, while the "conclusion is presumed by a premise" use is American. He then compliments German for using the Latin "petitio principii" to avoid this mess.
Daniel | 12.12.06 - 2:02 am | #

The OED doesn't mention the "demand a further question" use, so I think Westphal is probably wrong there.
voyou | Homepage | 12.12.06 - 4:27 am | #

Since we're picking nits, the game should not be called Six Degree of Kevin Bacon. The entire world is theoretically separated by only six degrees, so linking somebody to Kevin Bacon in so many steps should be ridiculously easy.

For example, I met Ryan Stiles of Whose Line is it Anyway? and Drew Carey fame. He was on Two and a Half Men with Charlie Sheen last night. Charlie Sheen was in Navy Seals with Bill Paxton, who was in Apollo 13 with Kevin Bacon. See? Even I'm only four degrees from Kevin Bacon, and I'm not even an actor. The game should be 3 Degrees of Kevin Bacon, as it was originally proposed when I first heard of it (on Mad About You).

That is all.
Matt in Toledo | Homepage | 12.12.06 - 9:18 am | #

Degree should have been plural in that first sentence. Damn.
Matt in Toledo | Homepage | 12.12.06 - 9:18 am | #

The Hatred isn't up, but it's Blogger's fault, not Marta's.
Adam Kotsko | Homepage | 12.12.06 - 10:33 am | #

Daniel's point reminds me I've noticed that the British do put it differently, at least sometimes: I've seen puts the question in an old English law report. For some reason I didn't learn what "begging the question" meant until I was grown up, although I must have been familiar with the concept.
I don't pay | Homepage | 12.12.06 - 11:34 am | #

Matt in Toledo:

Ummm...if the "six degrees of Kevin Bacon" thing is all about movies, isn't it actually *harder* to play when you just have to stick with persons who have appeared in movies and link them with other persons who have appeared in other movies. I mean, of course everyone in the whole wide world is linked withing six degrees, but then that would make the Kevin Bacon game non-sensical. The first thing I asked myself when I read Adam's post was: "What movie was Henri de Man in?" Only then would that reference be of any help for future "six degrees of Kevin Bacon games."

I hate how a (stupidly) fun game that allows one to display a relative degree of trivial cinematic knowledge and pass time on long road trips is somehow discredited on the basis of one's socio-metaphysical theories and insights.

I hate how such denigrating attitudes toward the game "six degrees of Kevin Bacon" actually irk me so.

I hate that I didn't engage Zizek in a game of six degrees of Kevin Bacon when he was in town last month. (He could have stayed over at my house and we could have played it all night!)

I hate that I was forced to express this hatred in this comment thread, and not in the appropriate "Tuesday Hatred" thread.
Nate Kerr | 12.12.06 - 12:33 pm | #

This thread is the first time in over ten years that anyone has ever mentioned "Mad About You."
Adam Kotsko | Homepage | 12.12.06 - 12:44 pm | #

Adam...mission accomplished. Maybe I can work Urkel into a future post.

Nate...I regret that I didn't take into consideration that working only with movie casts limits the field significantly, but I still think the Six Degrees isn't stringent enough and limit myself to Three when the challenge is put before me. It doesn't allow for show-offy inefficiencies in movie and actor selection.
Matt in Toledo | Homepage | 12.12.06 - 2:25 pm | #

Matt in Toledo:

Fair enough. Three degrees is tough. You're a better man than I!
Nate Kerr | 12.12.06 - 3:17 pm | #

Sleepers and A Few Good Men are gold mines for that game.
Matt in Toledo | Homepage | 12.12.06 - 3:30 pm | #

I think six degrees is sufficient if you stipulate that at least one of the films must have been directed by Kurosawa, Truffaut, or Tarkovsky - and only those three. Can it be done?
JD | 12.12.06 - 5:43 pm | #