Eloquently put. Recognition of a certain level of learning isn't the same thing as granting any kind of official authority.
The question becomes: How do you communicate this concept to a laity that generally has a reflexive and negative reaction to anything that smacks of "ordaining" women? Do you start by giving it as neutral name as possible. "Advanced Biblical Scholar"?
The vast majority of people who learn long term in kollelim do not so much as apply for semicha. The benefits are rarely applicable unless the person takes a job as a rabbi.
"There are also a number of positions, not just rabbinical positions, open to ordained rabbis."
What kind of job are you talking about for which semicha makes a difference in pay and/or rent/utilities. As far as I know, the deduction is only for parsonage.
teaching positions.
administrative positions.
federation positions.
hillel positions.
to name a few...
the benefits are plenty applicable for professionals. we're obviously not talking about kollel guys.
Well said
This is an important issue and it's something I've been thinking about for a while. Thanks for bringing it up.
sometimes yashrut is feminism. feminism isn't always a bad word.
Yes - but the address for this issue is the IRS and the US Congress, not the Rabbinical Schools or the Rambam/Shulchan Aruch. Tell the government that we are religiously prohibited from calling women "rabbis" Rabbis, but some of them do the same job as men and should get the same benefits. I'm sure there's an ammendement or two that can help make the case.
"the benefits are plenty applicable for professionals. we're obviously not talking about kollel guys."
what you're suggesting is a recipe for giving largely unqualified women these jobs.
"teaching positions.
administrative positions.
federation positions.
hillel positions."
AFAIK the parsonage deduction is only for rabbis of congregation. A hillel rabbi might merit such a deduction. I don't think the other jobs do.
"but the address for this issue is the IRS and the US Congress, not the Rabbinical Schools or the Rambam/Shulchan Aruch."
again, this only applies when the position comes along with parsonage, i.e. when a rabbi is actually required.
"what you're suggesting is a recipe for giving largely unqualified women these jobs."
to elaborate:
Is your claim that a woman who e.g. spends a few years at drisha doesn't finish the program with a credential equivalent to a master's? i don't believe that's true.
Women who have not graduated from such programs - exactly what credentials should they have without the training?
often feminism is yashrut. why should that be such a chiddush?
Very well said. I know this is a well-worn point, but didn't Deborah the Judge render halachic decisions in her day. I guess we are frummer than that now.
Thanks for the link, I wasn't sure where to get my smicha, but now...
You have very nicely identified a problem, but it actually doesn't only apply to women, although it limits women completely. A friend with a PhD in education(from an Ivy League school) was just appointed assistant principal of a MO high school, and has been informed that he wont be in line for principal because he doesn't have smicha. He learned in Yeshiva for many years. As his wife put it, what does basar v'chalov have to do with teaching kids? Maybe I will have to send him the shema yisroel link as well.....
The only equivalent that women can earn is a masters or PhD in judaic studies(or jewish history....)
i wonder what would happen if a woman completed the shemayisroel.org curriculum. perhaps that's why they require an interview at the end
"there's a real problem that there's no way to recognize a learned Orthodox woman"
Hurrah! Too true, unfortunately.
That's why we have Bruriah in the Gemara. And the shame R' Meir feels when she commits suicide after his planned seduction wager.
Bruriah, Bruriah...role model to us all.
Or all the other female characters, while we're at it...Deborah the Judge, Yael who killed Sisra, Esther who saved the Jews, Ruth from who David is descended, and so on and so forth...
Women, learned and clever (wasn't it Tzipporah who performed the bris milah on her son?!) exist, and should be recognized in some way.
It will happen, one day.
How did you find this?
Me - find what?
I've never found a convincing answer... how is it actually asur for a woman to have the title "rabbi" or decide halakhic questions?
You have very nicely identified a problem, but it actually doesn't only apply to women, although it limits women completely. A friend with a PhD in education(from an Ivy League school) was just appointed assistant principal of a MO high school, and has been informed that he wont be in line for principal because he doesn't have smicha. He learned in Yeshiva for many years. As his wife put it, what does basar v'chalov have to do with teaching kids? Maybe I will have to send him the shema yisroel link as well....."
if it has nothing to do, then the school shouldn't require it for men or women. If it is relevant,and they need a real rabbi, the women is legitimately out of the picture. If the knowledge is relevant, and they don't need a real rabbi, the following is not true:
"The only equivalent that women can earn is a masters or PhD in judaic studie"s(or jewish history....)"
no actually she can demonstrate she's finished a program that gave her facility with the texts.
The truth is that there are very limited number of women with such facility, equivalent to male rabbis, and the equivalent title adderabbi is talking to is going to go to women who don't have the background.
"i wonder what would happen if a woman completed the shemayisroel.org curriculum. perhaps that's why they require an interview at the end"
they require a signed statement from a rabbi too, but there isn't much in the way of safeguard that eg a husband won't sign up for his wife's benefit.
But you're kidding yourself seriously if you think there are substantial number of women in the US w. facility in shulchan aruch equivalent to graduates of such programs. You'd do far better to worry about that than to worry about illegitimate equal qualification for unqualified women.
Anon -
1)granted, perhaps not in the US. Plenty in Israel, though.
2)the reality is that semikha is often required for positions that shouldn't really require it.
3)if you throw R and C rabbis into the mix, then the fact that learned Ortho women can't compete with them for certain jobs is problematic.
4) a guy who learns in yeshiva for a few years and then takes a job as an elementary school mechanech will inevitably get some sort of piece of paper that identifies him as a Rabbi, even if he doesn't know (and doesn't really need to know) which way to hold a Tur. Places which are training 'kiruv professionals' have a smicha which requires one to take a test on the Kitzur Shulchan Arukh and 50 blatt Gemara of their choice. We keep watering it down (with good reason - see comments about R and C rabbis above) but still insist that it inappropriate for women.
1) not plenty - a limited number - and they are mostly way behind the equivalent Israeli O. men. The women are lagging very far behind.
2) You'd be better off lobbying to stop requiring the rabbi degree for jobs that are irrelevant and pressing for better women's education. The equivalent degrees *do* exist - going through an equivalent program for women does the trick. Graduates of drisha are not having trouble establishing their credentials. Graduates of Stern College are and for very good reason.
why no answer to steg?
since modern smicha is a social construction (i.e. totally made up) then why not apply it to women?
(and if you give the honest answer (that men can't stand the idea) i will give you a standing ovation.
but what is the halachic cover for the sexism?
zsta
i have a bunch more posts about smicha in my gut, but here's the short answer:
i predict that within the next few generations there will be mainstream Orthodox institutions (let's try not to over-define that for now) giving smicha to women.
Out of curiosity, who knows where I took the title of this post from?
Even Lieberman and Halivni oppose/d semicha for women
yes, but why?
anonymous who posted Even Lieberman and Halivni oppose/d semicha for women
you are doing the classic of playing the man not the ball.. it doesn't matter who says something it matters what they said. it is important to debate the content of an issue, not pretend there is a league table of whose opinion matters more. I don't care if the greatest gadol today takes a stance and moshe pipick disagrees with him. if moshe pipick makes the better case, then that carries the day.
how much jewish debate is about playing the man, not the ball? too much.
zsta
zsta - we often do play the man, not the ball. As i heard in the name of R' Mosheh Lichtenstein, "a shverrer (i.e., difficult to reconcile logically - AR) Rambam needs to be understood; a shverrer me doesn't".
Intuition is such a crucial part of the decision process, and that's part of the 'man', not the 'ball'. nevertheless, i agree that there may be too much emphasis on the 'man', especially if we don't try to understand the circumstances surrounding the 'man's statements.
While I agree with your sentiments, I cannot find the damming line
The yeshiva has decided to appoint a Rav as the Menahel of Sha’alvim for Women
on the SFW web site.
This is serious charge it needs to be backed up
Moshe -
thank you for the update. Shaalvim has taken that line out. I will rewrite the post accordingly.
FYI, i cut and paste that quote directly from the Shaalvim website.
it seems that someone at Shaalvim reads my blog (or mowoman, or bloghd, both of whom linked to this post).
Still waiting for the answer to Steg's question.
And while I'm being ignorant here, what's the halachic basis for tzniut?
My understanding is that parsonage exclusion only applies to ministers of the gospel eg clergy and Rabbis abd people performing religious services. A Rabbi performing non ministerial functions is not enttiltled to parsomnage. I believe there is a reported case involving Rabbi Mark Tanenbaum of the AJC who was denied parsonage on those grounds.-noit functioning as a minister of the gospel.
Curious as to rationale of Drisha scholars.
"you are doing the classic of playing the man not the ball.. "
I did it to save time. Marc Shapiro's book on Lieberman has his tshuva, if you are interested.
i think you're blowing this out of proportion - unless you know (and can prove) that they specifically replaced the previous dean because it was a "she", and not a "rav".
That same line that you quoted, could be interpreted completely innocently - by one dean moving on, and another (who happens to be a rav) replacing her.
again - unless you have proof to back this up.
Is this where you took the title of your post from? --
http://www.amazon.com/gp/
product...5Fencoding=UTF8
Binyomin - nope.
Anonymous said: Is your claim that a woman who e.g. spends a few years at drisha doesn't finish the program with a credential equivalent to a master's? i don't believe that's true.
and Anonymous (maybe a different one) also said: You'd be better off lobbying to stop requiring the rabbi degree for jobs that are irrelevant and pressing for better women's education. The equivalent degrees *do* exist - going through an equivalent program for women does the trick. Graduates of drisha are not having trouble establishing their credentials.
I don't think it's quite accurate to say that a graduate of the Drisha Scholars' Circle (the three-year program designed to parallel a smicha program in its halacha curriculum) will "finish the program with a credential equivalent to a master's." She graduates with a certificate, not a master's or any other official degree, since Drisha is not an accredited school.
In practice, what this certificate means for a job search depends largely on what the interviewer thinks of Drisha and its programs. Some people consider the Drisha certificate just like a master's in Talmud; some like smicha; but some like random learning that doesn't match a "real" degree or title.
At least one Drisha scholar was turned down for the position of Hillel Campus Rabbi because she didn't have the title of "rabbi."
Titles do matter. As long as "rabbi" functions as a job description as well as a degree, we are likely to have a problem for highly educated Jewish women without smicha. Either those women need to start getting smicha, or the entire American Jewish community needs to stop using "rabbi" as a job description and instead detail what they want the person to be able to do.
-Ilana Miriam
I have quite a bit to say about this, so sorry if the comments are a bit long...
1)Although I can see how women would like some official recognition of scholarship, I don't think that it is at all necessary to solve problems like the one at Sha'alvim. I think that people are quite capable of informally acknowledging torah scholarship in women, even without the hard and fast rule of semikhah.
2)As an alumna of Sha'alvim, I am very disappointed with this decision, particularly as it strikes me as contrary to much of their hashkafa. One of the particularly nice things about the school was that it supplied a good stock of women torah role models, from the dean to the yo'etzet halacha teacher, to the woman who taught a gemara class, to the madricha who had been learning full-time for over ten years. For people who wanted a Rabbi in charge, there was a mashgiach and a number of rabbi teachers as well.
3)I went through a similar experience when my Bais Yaakov high school fired the intelligent and charismatic principal to replace her with a rabbi, and I am ashamed that Sha'alvim decided to make this same choice.
4)If this really was the motivation of the seminary, I am slightly annoyed that they chose not to share it with the alumni, telling us simply that the dean had opted to move on.
5)As a young woman intensely interested in Torah study, I am sometimes annoyed by the lack of oppotunities to express this in the Orthodox world. Nonetheless, I think that semikha or anything like that is a risky path and must be taken slowly. The current trend of Yo'atzot Halacha is perhaps a promising one, but I'm just worried that we are going to try for too much all at once and end up either outside the pall of Orthodoxy or more radical than our own beliefs would justify. I do, however, want as many doors as possible to be open to women who acquire excellence in Torah. If this requires some official sort of title, than perhaps it is necessary, but it still makes me a little nervous.
"At least one Drisha scholar was turned down for the position of Hillel Campus Rabbi because she didn't have the title of "rabbi."
and hillel rabbis often function as rabbis, lead services and the like, which means women can't serve in the position no matter what level of learning they have!
anon- untrue. there are campuses with rabbis who are reform, orthodox, conservative, and everything in between. the job description isn't leading services. there are plenty of non-O women serving as campus rabbis.
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