Nice scoop,
How do you feel about this?
i'll post my analysis and speculations a different time.
At first glance this is a very good statement. I eagerly await your analysis...
I am personally involved in one aspect that is often ignored. I hope it will not be overlooked by the joint commission.
To wit, there are a number of communities all over America that are not close to some official la-di-da Beis Din or large population center. Sometimes, actually often, Geirei Tzedek come from these places with only a document from the local rov. Or perhaps the local rov went to a nearby slightly larger town to have the giur performed there.
It is often a huge expense and "tircha" to shlep to N.Y. or Chicago. I have also noticed that Orthodox and even Chareidi rabbis who are well-known in their cities were not listed on that very tiny list.
The point is that there needs to be a concept of Ishur by the RCA or various local Vaadei Harabbonim that is recognized. It may very well be reasonable to ask that the RCA or any known Vaad Harabbonim can have their letter accepted that states that they know the Rabbi of town x to be honest and trustworthy to perform a proper giur. But to ask for prior authorization (meaning that the RCA had to approve it BEFORE the tevila) is asking too much. To claim that Rabbi G. Schwartz can be trusted to do a giur but cannot be trusted to verify someone else's giur is dishonest and slimy.
This is a positive step. One that I was sure would happen, as I wrote elsewhere. Let's hope that the communique is fair.
Thanks for the update. This is very interesting. There is an upcoming meeting in Jerusalem to discuss the conversion standards with quite a number of international rabbis similar to the meeting a few months ago in Florida.
Yehupitz has nailed it. This agreement concedes the principle that only certain people should be "authorised" to do conversions, and that perfectly kosher conversions done by other people need not be recognised. That attitude is a perversion of halacha.
However much both the Rabbanut and the RCA might wish it, there is no such din that a person needs special qualifications to perform a conversion. In gittin there's a din that one should not get involved in preparing one without knowing tiv gittin. There are complicated halachot, and if you get one detail wrong the get could be passul, ch"v.
But hilchot giyur is not all that complicated. Any three kosher Jews, even if they are relative amharatzim, can form an ad hoc bet din and convert someone, and that person is then 100% Jewish, and nobody has the right to dispute it. People may legitimately inquire as to the kashrut of the three dayanim, if they haven't heard of them, but without a fact-based conclusion that they were not kosher, they have no choice but to recognise the convert as a Jew.
I remember one case in which a candidate for conversion was being given the run-around by the local bet din, so a rabbi who thought he was ready got two other rabbis together and converted him. None of the three were shul rabbonim, just erliche yidden, talmidei chachamim, who felt that they were doing the right thing. From that moment he was Jewish, and was fully accepted in the community, despite the fact that the official bet din had been bypassed. And when he married someone in another country, all he had to do was get a note from a rabbi in our community, saying that he had been properly converted by these three people, all of whom were known to the writer to be yer'ei shamayim, and that was enough for the rabbi of his wife's community to perform the marriage.
This agreement seems to preclude such arrangements. I wonder what would happen to this person (who has been Jewish now for about 30 years), if he were to go on aliyah.
wheres your kabel hoemes mimi sheomroy now 
It is a step in the right direction.
We pray and hope that all those who wish to be recognized will follow the standards that will make the conversion a true conversion: acceptance of Torah and Mitzvot.
Despite consant declarations and pronounements on this blog; the Halacha remains that thereneeds to be Kabbolas Hamitzvot ie. commitment to observe Halacha. It is the job of the three dayanim to veerify this to be so. Failure by them to do so, especially when past history shows that they are uninterested to veryify that we have a commitment put's a doubt as to their status as Beit Din for these matters.
It is therefore a propitious occasion when Rabbis of Erets Yisroel and the RCa agree to make better stadnards and from now on there will be checks and balanaces and there shall not be proliferation and fatories of conversions where commitment to Torah and Mitzvot is not the essence of the conversion.
I'm sure that these organizations will find ways to make the logisitics and other pratical issues around the conversion materialize into a Halachik conversion.
MAZAL TOV FOR ALL THAT MADE THIS HAPPEN!
Yehupitz brings up some extremely valid points. Having lived in a very small community, I can say that theshul Rabbonim in the near vicinity (oftentimes an hour drive apart) worked together on occassion to do conversions when the situation arose (frum family adopted a baby, a person became a BT and found out they were not halachically Jewish, or a person who proved themselves to be ready to be shomrei mitzvot wanted to become a ger tzedek).
I highly doubt that there was pre-approval or anything like that. I know with Chabad that the Rabbi would choose ba'alebatim to fill out his Beit Din.
Obviously, some solution will have to be reached so as to not pull apart all the groups involved. But, it would be a shame to see Shomer Shabbat gerim and children being raised Orthodox questioned because the Chief Rabbinite changed the ground rules.
Thank you for the update; I will link it. Will look forward to you analysis. Shabbat Shalom!
Let's us all focus on the positive. But also learn from the mistakes of the past. The ngative experience of having baleybatim or pulpit rabbis who did not ensure that there bekabbolas hamitzvos is the shame that brought this mess. Thank G-d we have a thoguhful man like Rav Amar who will combine justice and mercy to find a reasonable solution for all this mess. But baley batim and rabbis who are not interested to make sure that the convert commits to torah and mitzvot are not the people suitable for a beys din.
so I guess I'm Jewish afterall...
Emes-I have lived in many communities. I have seen Rabbis who have put converts through nearly every hoop to ensure converts maintain their commitment to halacha and I have seen Rabbis that are more ameniable to converts who are still growing in observance, so to speak.
And, do you know what? With both types of Rabbis, I have seen successes and I have seen failures.
In one community I lived in, there was a Rabbi who was notorious for being difficult on potential converts. Greater and greater chumrot were required and years into the process were required before he would bring a convert to the Beit Din. Guess what? He has NOT had 100% success with his candidates.
I know another Rabbi in another community whose conversions are looked down upon, but he has had some success stories where the candidates have moved on to greater and greater observances and have their children enrolled and thriving in very RW institutions. This Rabbi too has failures, like the one above.
Performing conversions comes with risk. Oftentimes defections are not a matter of not doing enough research. I can think of another convert who defected after great observance. Unfortunately, after a terrible marriage, being withheld a get, and little support from the Beit Din, she became very worn. Her daughter (also a convert) is a Bais Yaakov grad and very frum, but the mother defected. A failure? Somewhat. A success? The daughter certainly is.
Let's just say success and failure is a mixed bag and stricter and more lenienet Batei Din can be pinned to both cases.
Let's talk again on Sept. 12, nu?
In the meantime, those who are undergoing conversions seem to have some definitive answers, sorta: If one desires an unquestioned conversion, 1) accept the mitzvot and live by them. 2) go through an impeccable, kosher bet din, none of whose members participated in preparing one in the conversion process.
This seems to be the bottom line, from what I've read. (And I don't think the part about one's rabbi not being on the bet din has been common knowledge, interestingly.) Just because Rabbi Amar doesn't know the bet din's members personally, doesn't mean a conversion isn't valid as long as the ger has followed the above. Anyone?
There is an Av Beit Din on this list (he doesn't always sit on the Beit Din) and it is quite common for the Rabbi who helped the future ger along to sit on the Beit Din. I honestly don't know how one gets away from this in smaller communities (much less very small communities), which this one on the list is.
Remember, there are two other Rabbis who need to approved the process, and some Batei Din require meetings and approval from the entire Va'ad before a Beit Din is approved, which makes an unscrupulous conversion even less likely.
From all I've read, it looks near impossible to please everyone and there will still be plenty of people left in limbo if they want to make aliyah. With Israeli Rabbis being turned to more and more for American issues, one has to wonder IF the standards for conversions and gittin (even more pertinent to family status) will be imported here.
Rebecca,
Looks like Im Jewish too!
Rebecca and Aaron's comments really underscore the tragedy of this situation. To make people whose hearts and souls are Jewish question their identity again, after having already gone through a process that is often trying and frustrating, is horribly perverse.
In the conversion process, while always ensuring that the conversion candidate is serious, it must not be forgotten that people's lives are also at stake. As previously mentioned, accepting converts into the fold is not only required by the Torah but is also, practically speaking, good for the Jewish people. But on a micro level, this kind of uncertainty causes personal pain and grief to real people, people who oftentimes do not deserve to be put through the wringer twice. A woman's childbearing years can be cut short; decent marriage prospects can be all but eliminated (we all know the choices a 28-year-old frum woman, or even a man, will face even if s/he is not a convert!)...the problems continue.
I am not saying that the process should be a rubber stamp for those who wake up feeling Jewish one day. But for those who have studied, lived Torah, and who were simply born with a Jewish neshama that got lost on the way, this type of confusion merely causes needless heartbreak. Yes: standards need to be set, but last time I checked, some pretty good ones were brought down by the Torah and our sages. Each ger needs to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis to ensure that his or her intentions are serious but also to ensure that time is not needlessly wasted and hearts are not needlessly broken.
Writers write their conerns and some are re very valid ones.
But they aremissing some other part of the picture: That a large percentage of these conversions are done with no kabbolas hamitzvot whatsoever. We are talking about keeping basicshabbos kashrus and tahahrat hamishpocho.
There is no way in the wrold that one can sustain such a system where these pseudocovnersions continue.
It is one thing where the Beys Din tried to verify and the convert was serious to begin with and then "Defected" (then the halacha is clear that the pserson isjewish). But it is totally different: when the Rabbi decides that we do not need to get any commitment; it is enough, for instance that the convert will come to synagogue sometimes with a car and eat blintzess and gefilte fish. These cases 9and they are the numerous and in certain rabbis the majority of their "conversions") there is no basis for such conversions and they may be disqualfied perhaps even expost facto.
Good luck in your journeys and Hashem will certainly bring you where you want and deserve.
Chana says: In the meantime, those who are undergoing conversions seem to have some definitive answers, sorta: If one desires an unquestioned conversion, 1) accept the mitzvot and live by them. 2) go through an impeccable, kosher bet din, none of whose members participated in preparing one in the conversion process.
Do you have a list of those "impeccable" beit dins? I've yet been able to find one. The list that is up on ITIM of accepted by the Israeli Rabbinute includes rabbis that are not accepted by a number of the rabbis I know. I've got maybe 2 beit dins that are probably accepted everywhere:
London Beit Din - which may be questionable now with politics of their not having accepted an Israeli Rabbinut conversion
Jerusalem Eidah Charedis who are not certified by the state of Israel to do conversions
Emes says: But they aremissing some other part of the picture: That a large percentage of these conversions are done with no kabbolas hamitzvot whatsoever. We are talking about keeping basicshabbos kashrus and tahahrat hamishpocho
I'm going to ask - where are you getting this information? What is your proof? This does not match my eperience with orthodox converts at all.
Emes-Without documented cold hard proof, your facts are nothing by motzei shem ra on plenty of fine converts that I know.
There is a small sliver of Emes to Emes's accusations. There are A FEW Orthodox rabbis who are well known for this type of conversion. For the most part, these rabbis have not been active for at least 20 years. The 50's to 70's knew many such converts.
But, the point remains that there are still opinons that view those conversions as valid if the convert was not told the Dinim of Shabbos, Kashrus and TH before the tevila.
emes seems to be an old friend who has toned down the rhetoric a bit.
Just a shorter version of the old name. That's fine...
the plain ems is that unfortunately many current rabbis are not careful to make sure that the person being converted is mekabel mitzvot. They are megayer lot's of intermarried where the jewish spouse has almost no interest to live shabbos kashrut and taharat hamishpacha and so the prospectife convert.
Rabbis who are not ineterested to make this happen may lose the power to make kosher conversions.
Let us hope thatthe resolutions will bring about the true emes to channgue the ways and the future converts will be those who are really committed not to drive shabbos, to eat only kosher and to keep the laws of mikveh and to raise their children in a jewish school and live close to a shul etc etc and truthfullness and peace will prevail.
emes -i'm sure you see the full picture from your vantage point in brooklyn. that really provides a good cross-section of American Orthodoxy.
Does not match my experience with friends that have/are converting in Brooklyn. I don't know what world Emes is in and as usual not a single proof othe than his opinion.
Emes have you done any research into the new standards? Have you talked to people at places you've linked to as a good example? What beit dins do you consider do a good job/meet your requirements?
The Wall Street Journal tries to put the conversion problem in context.
thanks for the link, larry.
someone just sent me a copy of part of it.
too bad the article came out just as the RCA and Rabbanut work out their deal
The issues the Journal raises about Israel/Diasporah relations still exist. Also, this deal involves only the RCA and the Rabbanut. What about conversions by non-RCA rabbis? What is the status of a convert whose beit din consisted of 3 rabbis from their local Agudah shul? What of converts from the London Beit Din? Also, what of conversions performed by RCA affiliated Rabbis where the beit din itself was not RCA certified?
Exactly, Larry.
damn, I was getting excited about the idea that the rabbanut would never have any authority oer me cause they didn't consider me jewish 
Malka - my point exactly - there is no list of 'impeccable' batei din - the challenge is trying to communicate what HaShem knows to be the fierce awe of Torah in the ger's heart to fellow mere mortals...
ah, sorry Chana I got your post to be saying the exact oppposite. Oops
actually, i'm familiar with situation in some of the small communities where some places the issue drastic. Over there you may find some places (Florida for instane) where it is abysmal). almost no serious kabbolas hamitzvot whatsoever.
In fact, in a small city where there are no jewish resources, no jewish education no shommer shabbos it is highly difficult to attain a serious kabbolas hamitzvot in actuality.
I hope and pray that the resolution found will be put in practice and what the Rabbis from the RCA acknowleged to the hands on information that they were given by the Rabbanut that showed them (unlike what has been said here) that they are aware of the precarious situation and therefore now wwith the resolution we have a solid change to make the change letova (for the better).
Again a mazal tov for this reslolution.
emes -
FL doesn't count. it's a suburb of NY.
every Jewish community with more more than 5000 Jews has a day school.
i can't speak for the really out-of-town places, but usually in involves commitment to live walking distance to the orthodox shul (which is usually a pretty good guarantor of a serious kabbalat mitzvot, especially if it means moving a family or living in a higher-cost area).
can you name such a town? one or two at least?
i know some pretty out of town places where that simply doesn't happen. the yehupitzer has written about his own experiences in these comments. i have other friends who are out-of-town rabbis, and that's simply not the experience.
i'm not saying you're wrong; but i, and others, would like to hear of some concrete instances.
So far as I know most of the converts I come across have had their batey din agree with the following. I've also been running this by a number of rabbis since this controversy began. The rabbis come from different geographic as well as different haskafic places and so far they all say yep this is what we require. So while there may be individual cases that are not meeting this standards I still hold that the majority of conversions meet the below.
You must be within walking distance to a shul(s). An appropriate community should have a mikvah, synagogue (gets a minyan), day school for kids, adult learning, and kosher food readily available. That you commit to kabbalat o mitzvot, that you accept the 13 principles of faith, and that you agree to marry an obsevant jew and send your kids to a jewish day school.
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