does allowing the heter mechira mean the farmers are allowed to work the land? Or are they only allowed to use non-Jewish workers?
the former
why? a jew is not allowed to work land in Israel during Shmitta? If it belongs to a goy he is allowed to work?
Didn't you want to put a shemittah label on this post?
rafi - yes, under the right circumstances (i think that contracting is ok, but not sharecropping; i'll have to look it up).
mominisrael - thanks
No I have no doubt that once it is clear that the majority of Jews who constitute khal yisrael live in the Land of Israel (by even the most liberal definition of who is a Jew in khal yisrael - let's just say the majority of Jews, period), that these same Rabbis will then declare that we can do the heter mechira b/c of the Meiri et al, in order to benefit the Jewish farmer blah blah blah, and throw Rav Kook's every 7 year re-evaluation to the wind.
When Rav Stav lives in a house that was built by Jewish labor and his yeshiva is in a building that was built by Jewish labor - and he PERSONALLY paid the higher costs for this, I'll buy into his arguments. Otherwise I see no difference between the construction industry and agriculture vis-a-vis supporting Arabs.
He also doesn't explain why all of a sudden it is OK to illegaly undermine an established state institution such as the Rabbanut, but it was not OK to disobey illegal orders to thrown Jews out of their homes.
ben bayit - there are some communities who refuse to use Arab labor. My shul, for example, paid a lot more for construction costs because we decided to not use Arab labor.. so it is possible..
it is difficult to understand how people (haredim usually) can scream "lo techanem" in regards to the heter mechira when during the disengagement which was the ultimate transgression of lo techaneim they remained silent...
Rafi - I made your latter point many times - including a recent post on my blog quoting Rav Lior on this exact point. Yes there ARE communities that are consistent on the issue of Arab labor and there ARE rabbanim that are consistent on the issue of Lo Techanem, and there ARE Rabbis who take a consistent view on being mamlachti (or not). But unfortunately many of the Tzohar and Co. Rabbis aren't.
Here's an example from out of left field (which may get its own posting on my blog - haven't decided yet) - Yuval Cherlow in referring to Naomi Ragen's new book which heavily criticizes the modern orthodox community in America said that "one shouldn't spit in the well from where one drinks". To me this implies that he found her nasty bits on the charedi community in her earlier books to be acceptable, and only when she turned her spotlight on her own community (which it isn't as she explained in a recent interview) is her approach treif. I have a problem with that - and a problem of seeing someone like that as a rosh yeshiva, marbitz torah, and communal leader when in reality he is just a publicist with sectoral interests
I hear your point and thatis what it sounds like to me as well. Rav Cherlow has said many things that are controversial over time... I understand the idea that one should not spit in the well from which he drinks, but on the other hand, one knows best the problems of ones own community and can criticize it in hope to improve it. When citicizzing another community one can never really be 100% sure he has the situation read correctly....
The greatest poskim in OUR generation express the opinion that the heter mechira is worthless. They also know the Chazon Ish said one can rely on it. Perhaps something changed since the time of the Chazon Ish until now. Perhaps something changed from the time of Rav Kook until now.
We know what Rav Kook held when he was alive. Not so relevant to us now, unless you say the facts on the ground are exactly the same. Which todays poskim say they are not.
We know what the CI said when he was alive. Not so relevant to us now, unless you say the facts on the ground are exactly the same. Which todays poskim say they are not.
And we know what the poskei hador say today. For all you know, Rav Kook and the CI would agree that with todays facts, the heter mechira is bunk. You have no idea. None whatsoever. Whoever thinks they do is simply dreaming. RYSE is not just out there to mess the farmers over. Whoever thinks that is making a mockery of the poseik hador and the entire process of psak. Not someone I would want to be leading the "new rabbinate" in any event.
RYSE feels strongly enough about this issue to make this THE issue thru which he chose the chief rabbi. Something tells me that Rabbi Stav is simply missing something that RYSE knows or understands.
"We know what Rav Kook held when he was alive. Not so relevant to us now, unless you say the facts on the ground are exactly the same...We know what the CI said when he was alive. Not so relevant to us now, unless you say the facts on the ground are exactly the same."
Out of curiosity, is this an approach you advocate taking in general? I.e. investigating to determine whether the facts on the ground are the same before applying halakhic rulings? Not an attack, just curious, only because many of the rabbanim who have made this sort of ruling don't necessarily seem to do that all of the time or think that's a good or legitimate idea.
Yes, the gedolim in question take facts in to consideration. You might not like what they consider a fact vs what they dont but of course they take facts into account.
Moreover, you can play this "game" the other way - the more MO rabonim seem to take the "facts" as you call them more seriously, so now why dont they?
guy - they do. r' stav's whole piece is about why it should apply now as much as ever. you may disagree, and you may not like the fact that he's ignoring 'the gedolim' (though i'm sure he considers r' yaakov ariel, r' chaim druckman, and r' dov lior, all of whom support the heiter mechira, gedolim), but he certainly takes the 'facts' into consideration.
supererogatory - great word. (I have a bad mental image of R' Moshe Stav mispronouncing the word, "k'mo b'reade rs digest.")
shmilda - just figured out who you are.
more noise from the rabbanut...
the rabbanut doesn't seems opposed to taking completly self destructive positions (postitions so politcally untenable that really going throu with them would cause them to loose all but a sliver of support from even the orthodox in the population..as opposed to the tenuous support they haven ow from only the orthodox) and then reversing those opinions
eg...invalidating RCA conversations then reconsidering
in fact that does seem to be an isreali political MO in general no?
eg claiming you will be giving up a ton of land next year and then saying..are you crazy of course we didnt mean that
Of course, correct. However, there is another approach to the problem. We can accrue various heterim to remove the issur of sefichin (many of them from gedolei isroel like R. Shlomo Zalman, etc) and then not need heter mechirah at all. See, R. Veitman, Shemittah Bmabat Mamlachti, chapter on issur sefichin. I think though that Chareidi public will find even more what to dispute with this approach.
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