Your last line indicates that you are not speaking only theoretically. So, tachlis, suppose you were officiating at a wedding, and the couple chose a day trader as one of the witnesses. Would you accept him?
It's easy for me to say "no" here, but that's my inclination.
Soemone who makes his money playing craps is relying on pure luck, and contributes nothing to society.
Picking a horse is a little more skill, and a professional card player more than that, but neither actually contribute to society either.
Stock trading is what makes it profitable for companies to issue stock. It therefore funds any traded company and enables it to do work.
Some may say it's more like picking a racehorse, others may say it's more like being good at cards. Some might even say stock trading involves more skill than either. But it's not raw luck, and it does contribute to the economy.
As for the article, it's hogwash. Traders are commission based. Just no one discusses the guy who lost money for the firm for three quarters in a row and got no bonus or was handed a pink slip. He's skimming the top of the bell curve and portraying it like it's the norm.
-micha (typing this while sitting in a cubicle at a hedge fund; but I write software, I'm more of a kubiyah maker, if anything)
So you're saying that since the system is beneficial overall, even though some abuse it, participating in it is still 'oseik be-yishuvo shel olam'. Fair point.
I'm not sure what luck vs. skill has to do with it, though. So what if it's a skill? Why would that make it 'yishuvo shel olam' if it's fundamentally unproductive.
Would you accept as a witness somebody who is unemployed?
Most people ask the rabbi if their witnesses are okay before the actual wedding.
We did, and the rabbi asked that someone we wanted to be a witness be honored in a different way exactly because of something like this.
While I like Krugman's piece (as always, basically), I think your analysis and application is flawed.
The Wall Street barons were worse than sitting idly not partaking in yishuvu shel olam. They were knocking down the banking and insurance systems, the housing markets, etc. That's the problem.
Day traders are, on the other hand, as you point out, speculators. We're ALL speculators. Decisions such as when to stock up on certain goods or to delay purchases are often based on speculation as to future prices. Same thing with currency conversions (which the olim middle class does often), housing transactions, retirement investing. Investing for a 20-minute horizon is no less economically substantive than for a 20-year horizon. The gambler has no substantive economic purchase.
דיו לבא מן הדין להיות כנידון. Disqualify those that frequent casinos (query as to whether occasional gamblers, such as NCAA junkies, qualify?)
If אינו עוסק ביישובו של עולם disqualifies us, woe unto us bloggers and facebook users!
The argument is that all those who participate in the market provide liquidity and an efficient market. As with many things in life there is an unclear line of demarcation - where does betting on a throw of the dice differ from betting on the future of the DJI?
She-nir'eh et nehamat Yerushalayim u-binyanah bi-mherah ve-yamenu
KT
Luck vs skill would be a determining factor if:
(1) One is looking at the terms of the taqanah not the sevara. It could be the guy doesn't help yishuvo shel olam, but the beis din trusts him and he technically doesn't qualify.
(2) One is looking at the sevara that it is avaq geneiva. Wall Street trading isn't viewed by most of the parties as being dominated by chance. (Whether it is or not is a different question.) The whole mentality that allows one to argue asmachta is less and less common as people are more likely to view it as business.
Define yishuvo shel olam. Does it include someone living off a kollel stipend?
-micha
PS: The world is more like backgammon than chess. The better player maximizes his odds, but it's impossible to reason out the future.
if you like Sanhedrin you should read this - especially from pages 21 on.
http://my.ynet.co.il/pic/news/dr...dromi/
dromi.doc
to the comments about Kollel and the unemployed, if you learn through the sugya, you will see that the idea seems to be linked to chimud mamon. In my view, it is the combination of yishuvo shel olam and the fact that there is a chimud mamon which causes the disqualification, hence an unemployed person or kollel member woukd be ok.
On a related note, is this psul only for monetary testimony or is it dini nefashos as well? If it is the latter, im not sure why chimud mamon would matter?
bb- awesome. thanks.
also check out judge pilpel's concurring opinion at the end - the quote from the Midrash and the parshanut of Nechama Leibowitz..........
If was a high school gemara rebbe teaching the sugya of rodef I would make this court ruling mandatory learning. it doesn't get much better than this - philosophy, law, brisker chakiras, laws of evidence, CSI investigations, police testimony - all wrapped up on one real life situation.
Adderabbi, both rationales are used by Samuel Johnson, independent of the Gemara, in Boswell's Life. Would share more, but it's part of an article already submitted [but not yet accepted] for publication, called "Rabbinic Reflections in the Life of Samuel Johnson".
Paul Krugman is an extreme left-winger. The blogs exposed this thoroughly in the 2004 election. You can't trust a word he says.
Caught this thread a little late. I think you're a little off-base. Unless they're otherwise dishonest, day-traders contribute to the efficiency of the market.
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