thank you for the kind words, but i think you underestimate the power of social pressure to keep a religion going in spite of philosophical problems. There will always be a significant majority of people that simply don't care about philosophy.
I suppose we will see. Time will tell.
Some percentage of Orthodox Jews (from 0% to 100%) will will leave Orthodoxy because of the DH. It might be a trivial number or it might be a huge number; I just don't know. I have no doubt that many Orthodox Jews will remain Orthodox for other reasons.
I couldn't agree more about Orthodoxy needing to respond effectively. It is beginning to happen, but will certainly take a generation to get into full swing. To believe this extraordinarily difficult task is left at this point to lowly bloggers is a sad comment on the community and its intellectual development.
I think you series on the details of the DH is a wonderful contributuion. Have you ever thought of tying it into the weekly parsha, which might make it a little easier to follow and bring the issues home with more affect?
כל באיה לא ישובון זו מינות definitely refers to the Documentary Hypothesis.
Before I encountered it I never understood that Gemoroh, because I thought it's all a matter of perceiving the truth, and if the Torah is true, why can't one go back on heresy? Now that I've tasted the forbidden waters of the DH, there really is no going back. It's revolutionary to someone steeped in the traditional way. Which makes me wonder what the author of that statement had in mind; did he understand that מינות is much more intellectually satisfying than faith and staying away is the only precaution?
> The failure to do so risks seriously undermining Orthodoxy.
I think what some people fail to realize is that the DH is usually only one of several factors that lead to questioning orthodoxy. Ultimately, it's the whole package - Science, DH, ANE history,which leads to loss of belief. While in LF's case, the DH was his gateway to heresy, I think it is usually is the Makeh Bepatish,the straw that breaks the camlel's back, after questions about science and history are already reaking havoc.
Without the above issues, when the DH is approached superficially, it is so out of whack with an individual's current thought processes, that it's simply dismissed, just as suggestions that "God is an Astronaut".
On the other hand, when the DH is studied, it is so convincing, so destructive to normative OJ, that OJ's current approach, which is to ignore it, might be the most effective. Most OJers, at least in my circle, have never even heard of the DH. Developing a response to it, might attract more attention and lead to more losses than otherwise.
Why? Because the DH really rings true. Nikarin divrei Emes?
כל באיה לא ישובון זו מינות definitely refers to the Documentary Hypothesis.
כל באיה לא ישובון זו מינות
Umur Rebbe Meir zu documentary hypotheses sheneemar
EJ - I think looking at the weekly parsha through the DH is a bit too much each week, at least for me. Remember - I want to look at both the DH and how traditional sources explain any anomalies.
Also, I'm going to be making at least two passes through the Torah. One will look at the characteristics of each source (word choice, style, knowledge, time of composition, etc.) assuming the division into sources is correct. The second will look at each "story" or unit of the Torah, assuming that the characteristics are correct. So I think it makes sense to plod through in a more orderly way rather than being forced through by the weekly parsha.
BaalHabos...Developing an approach doesn't mean doing a Slifkin or even a Gil Student "I read, I looked, it's nothing." I also agree it is very wrong to do an XGH assault face to face to any frum person who doesn't want to know about this.
Talking about this on the internet is a big safek in my mind. I do it but feel guilty for doing it. I would like to discuss this last question at greater length.
I think in a generation the outlines of the DH will be known by most literate bnei torah. I bet 20% of the bochurim in the Mir in Jerusalem today have a vague idea of the DH. At that point Orthodoxy is in a full fledged crisis. An analogy might be the difference between HIV and AIDS.
The ideal situation is that some adam gadol, a Rav Kook type with a comprehensive vision finds a way to get his arms around this topic and deal with it as part of a larger picture on the role of Torah and the place of Orthodoxy in the life of the Jewish people. You are quite right in saying the way to become a chozer beshailah is overdetermined.
What is happening now on the skeptic blogs is in my opinion yatzah secharo behefsaido.
Just a quick request --- could commentators include a translation of Hebrew phrases, at least the less common one. A lot of the readers are unfamiliar with these and some (including me) are familiar with only some of them.
>Talking about this on the internet is a big safek in my mind. I do it but feel guilty for doing it.
Ej, my sentiments exactly.. Even more so for Kuzari realted issues.
>Nikarin divrei Emes.
The truth is recognized when you hear it. But I'm pretty sure you know that one.
Almost. I understand "divrei Emes," but I didn't know what "nikarin" meant, although I got the gist of it from context.
Remember - I did not grow up with an Orthodox background. I went to a suburban Reform synagogue, did a lot of arts and crafts, learned about Israel and the Holocaust, learned how to pronounce Hebrew, learned some basic Hebrew words and phrases, and memorized part of a parsha. I tend to have some really deep knowledge in some areas, and some really spotty knowledge in others.
Bruce, would you happen to have a link to this thread lying around, or at least know where it can be found? Sounds interesting.
Thanks.
To which thread?
It is funny to watch you guys debating how DH will effect haredim.
This is where haredim are holding in secular knowledge. In my yeshiva middle aged man are still debating whether earth goes around the sun or not(citing erroneously Einstein as a source that earth could be a center).
And my yeshiva is LWUO.
you guys have no clue as how ignorant haredim are. And this is in US where yeshiva boys go through 12 years of secular studies - imagine Israel or Chasidim.
you know it's funny. I grew up MO but come to think of it, in my school my rebbe also told us that acording to Einstein everything is relative so you could say the sun rotates around the Earth because it all depends on you reference frame. He said this as an answer to the passuk in yehoshua about shemesh bigivon dom
littlefoxling
also keep in mind that many MO schools hire haredi rebbis, because not that many MO guys wanna become rabbis. So MO has a shortage of rabbis and they use haredi rabbis. So - haredi nonsense gets transferred to MO.
many MO schools hire haredi rebbis
Very true. The rabbi who said this was from a yeshivish backround
not that many MO guys wanna become rabbis
True. But this may change. I am in mid 20s and MO and many of my friends are going into chinuch. The chief reasons for this change, IMHO, are:
- the MO community is frummer now than it was 30 years ago so more people want to go into chinuch
- the MO community is wealthier now than it was 30 years ago so less people are concerned to earn a lot of money
- chinuch is viewed as an excellent compromise for young women planning on having children who do not want to be full time Moms but also don't want to make the full time commitment necessary for most careers.
LF wrote
- the MO community is frummer now than it was 30 years ago so more people want to go into chinuch -
Look, I hope you are right, I am not out to bash MO. As far as MO becoming more frum - true, but as long as people from MO community continue getting normal secular degrees- why would they want to work as a rebbi, for half as money and other issues. Haredim have no degrees so they go for any jobs they can get, like a rebbi etc. And heredim also become more frum than 30 years ago, and have even less living skills and even more kids and even more poverty, so the competition for a rebbi position is crazy and becoming crazier - so this may prevent many MO from choosing to become rebbis.
- the MO community is wealthier now than it was 30 years ago so less people are concerned to earn a lot of money -
I actually feel that the wealthier people are more concerned about money, than poorer people. And haredim are poorer and will drive salaries of rebbis down.
But I hope I am wrong about all of this, because if things continue as they are now - in 30 years haredim will turn into Taliban and MO will become more like leftwing yeshivish.
what does the phrase: ืื ืืืื ืื ืืฉืืืื ืื ืืื ืืช mean? and from where is it cited?
also: i am a b'al t'chuvah sort of. the weird thing from my perspective is that I got very into Judaism (and am still very into it as a subject of study) but am reading more DH style stuff now.
It is painful either way: to be Jewish and orthodox is painful, because it does not feel right to REALLY believe that the Torah is from G-d....but it also hurts deeply to think that our amazing (some are) rabbis in the kiruv world are mimicking a false idea.
and my time in israel among frum people was so special.
no way to win....
but i do accept G-d --- so where does that leave a guy??
ืื ืืืื ืื ืืฉืืืื ืื ืืื ืืช
did it come through this time....
if not english approx:
col neyah lo yishobon do meynos
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