Clearly this teacher learned spelling by "repitition" too. They "repite" it enough that even some parents think it's "repition". Anybody know why I should send my kid to a school where this level of command of the English language is acceptable?
That student is not exactly Shakespeare either. But sometimes when we write fast we make mistakes.
I'm amazed how we can continue to allow this to happen. It's bananas. I love the Apple commercial inference, and how interesting that it took so long for them to come out on top of something in terms of computing, and they did it by innovation and user-friendly systems. Hmmmmm ... sounds familiar to the arguments we made before in this very blog.
Have you been to a KIPP school? Have you been there for a day? Each school is pretty distinct. Some complaints are valid, but there's a joy I see in KIPP students that I don't often see elsewhere. There is some repetition in instruction. But there's also a lot of higher-level thinking. With more time in the school day, there'll be more of everything. I observed every single teacher at some point during the year. Every single teacher in my former school used a variety of methods to get their students to learn. And like any good teacher, most found ways to continually challenge students who "got" the material more quickly.
I'm really having a problem with the complaints about the amount of hours... The kids and their parents CHOOSE KIPP. (And if the kid goes only because his parent forces him to, well, that's part of being a kid, unfortunately. I never wanted to play soccer, but my parents signed me up anyway.) The kids go to safe schools where they are not teased and not beat up. Lessons have to be engaging and interactive. There have to be "hooks" to get kids immediately interested. They have enrichment opportunities during the school day. Students go on to college preparatory high schools and are prepared to go to college. These kids would have little chance of going to college otherwise. If the kids and parents and teachers all choose this, what's the problem? If you don't want to send your children to a KIPP school, it's understandable. But will we deny a child and his/her parents the opportunity to significantly improve their lives? Isn't continuing the cycle of bad education worse than having better, if not more difficult options?
I agree that attrition is an issue. Some kids leave because the day is too long. Some leave because although they want to stay, they are not able to handle such a structured environment and are advised to find another placement where the student will be more successful. But for the kids who do make it to 8th grade, the reward is great. And high school, as everyone knows, is usually not 10.5 hours a day. The long school day is a temporary situation while students catch up to their suburban and wealtier peers.
I also don't think every charter school is the miracle some proclaim. I've seen some pretty crappy ones, ones far worse than neighborhood schools. But KIPP is not just any network of charter schools.
Would I send my own kid to KIPP? No. But I would appreciate the option.
I apologize if the tone of this comes across as harsh. I've been reading this blog for a long time and appreciate the commentary, especially on NYC. But there doesn't ever seem to be another perspective.
I have two questions for Former KIPP Teacher:
1. Why are you a former KIPP teacher?
2. Why wouldn't you send your own kid to KIPP?
Just curious...
1) She's a former KIPP teacher because she's tired of giving her life to her place of employment 24/7;
2) She would like her child to have an actual childhood-contrary to popular belief, kids DO need some downtime too!
I think I'll answer this for myself. 
1. I'm going to grad school. And yes, the hours are difficult. Teacher turnover rates are high. But most KIPP schools continue to operate successfully despite hig turnover.
2. I would not send my kid to KIPP because I have other options. My kid will go to a suburban public school and not be so far behind grade level. My kid won't need KIPP. But that doesn't negate the fact that clearly there are many students who do need KIPP and want to be there. I have yet to hear an argument against this element of choice... If you don't like KIPP, that's understandable. Don't send your kids there.
I have a problem with the "kids who need KIPP and kids who do not need KIPP" response of pro-Kippers (sounds like a herring, maybe even a red one.)
Translated:
white, suburban, middle class of any color don't need it. No rote or drill and kill for them. Lots of time for trips, culture, art, music, etc.
Those who do need KIPP -- have no time to go to the Museum of Natural History, art museums, music programs, even computers (the tech gap grows) because not only will the kids fail tests if they don't get the rote smote deal, but KIPP will be branded a failure and no longer be the darlings of the right.
Thus, we get the dual system of education. A vocational approach to the poor kids who are roted to death (not that I think that really works in the long run- they'll know their 9 times tables but have no idea how to generate the table on their own if they should forget) while the middle class get the full package.
I understand the former Kipp's teacher POV, and she/he should have the right to answer questions directly put before them.
And I believe there are kids who do need KIPP schools over that of Jericho, etc. While I would never want to teach the hours of KIPP teachers, I would rather send my kid there than to some inner-city school that's dangerous and doesn't have a high level of 3s and 4s.
Unfortunately, discipline issues in the public school would make KIPP a better alternative. Of course if Klein would enact a discipline code for students and parents similar to many charters, I really believe all schools would improve.
KIPP parents probably like the long hours because they work long hours themselves. However that is not a good enough reason to make teachers work those hours. When we become babysitters rather than teachers, everyone suffers.
I also find I need to teach certain materials by rote. I give my classes a multiplication speed drill once a week. I start off slowly, 1x-3x tables the first week, and so on until I get to the 11x table. This makes teaching division and fractions much easier in the long run.
I would like to know from the former KIPP teacher how does one balance home/personal life with the teaching hours. Why would any individual want to sacrifice time with their family, friends, personal chores etc. to work in an enviornment that doesn't pay so well for the time put in?
Don't confuse this with a defense of KIPP. I do not know enough about it to make a rational, defensible judgement. But I am a beneficiary of Jesuit education, both H.S. and college. And though we are wont to look down at out Ivy League sports rivals, by saying "we were taught how to think. not what to think!", the Jebbies have a saying that has been true of their educational practice since Ignatius' time. "Repetitio mater studiorum est."(repetition is the mother of study{learning}).
I have never seen the reason to dismiss, let alone disparage, the concept of mastery by rote of certain elements of learning. In Latin I mastered the conjugations and declensions of the grammar. I could recite the elements needed to identify the ablative of cause from the ablative of means. By senior year in HS I was applying these skills to an understanding of Vergil's Aeneid in ways that went far beyond C Day Lewis's trot. I memorized geometric theorems and French grammar. I diagramed sentences, and mastered speling rules. None of these execrises in rote dampened my desire to learn or handicapped my ability to think critically. Indeed, the repetitions truly gave birth to my higher level skills. I think you will find many alums of the Jebbies feel the sme way. It goes beyond that of course. My daughter spent 3rd thru 8th grade in a well funded small class size L.I. school district. It used whole language, portfolios, and cooperative groups to develop it s students. I can't speak for others, but my girl only began to learn and revel in it when she began 9th grade at Kellenberg HS in Uniondale. Run by the same guys who run Chaminade they take their lead from the Jesuits' educatioal practices. Her college performance is off the charts and her ability to learn and apply new ideas and skills is unhindered and infact, enhanced by her HS experience.
So while I cannot apply these experiences to KIPP, I would and do take exception to the unbridled criticism of the "Repetitio..." as one important element to learning.
I think the reality of teaching 11 hours a day is that it's not sustainable for most people. It
I found it very difficult to keep a personal life... There are some perks - a full week for Thanksgiving, catered fun events for staff... But of course working an 11 hour day is really difficult. How'd I do it? Excuse the AA expression, but one day at a time.
Though I earlier mentioned how I wouldn't send my kid to KIPP, I actually don't have children yet. I was referring to whatever children come later. Most teachers are young (under 30) and don't have families. They don't plan on teaching there for the rest of their lives. Some KIPP teachers are only there one year. "Lifers" are there 4+. I know this sounds funny because I also taught in an inner-city public school. It's just a different expectation. KIPP teachers may not be career educators. But each year KIPP schools manage to fill vacancies and keep things consistent.
And yeah, rote learning can actually be fun. KIPP kids learn multiplication through chants (kind of like rapping) and love it. But after seeing every teacher in the school teach, I saw lots of higher order thinking, a la Bloom's taxonomy. It's not just drilling. KIPP loves visitors, go see for yourself.
And to Norm, KIPP kids actually have great field trips, especially earned end-of-year field lessons to places like D.C. and California. They have computer access and music too. I wish we lived in a world where the average suburban kid and the average urban kid had the same experiences, but that's just not the case. KIPP tries to make up for this by giving kids as many experiences as possible.
Great conversation. I believe the former KIPP teacher, but I also believe NYC Educator. I don't think they contradict one another as much as it appears.
Maybe KIPP should hire two teachers instead of one rather than burning yougn people out of teaching.
11 hours a day and all for a week off for Thanksgiving. Not worth it!
The average New Yorker works 8 hours unless they are in a high powered job with benefits that outweigh a week off for Thanksgiving. My friend's daughter earns big money, but works long hours. However she can afford to go to places we only dream of in her Prada wardrobe.
What is the pay like?
The KIPP website says it best:
"Students and teachers are in school from 7:30 a.m. until 5:00 p.m. on weekdays, for four hours on Saturdays, and for three to four weeks during the summer."
For your reward:
What are KIPP teachers' salaries?
KIPP schools offer a benefits package, which includes an annual salary, medical and dental benefits, and life insurance. Teaching salaries at KIPP schools are comparable to those of traditional public school salaries and include a stipend for the longer school days.
But after all:
"The rewards of this hard work are endless."
Oy vey
Some things have to be memorized. When you need to add 9 and 8 you can't sit around staring at your fingers; you need to know it's 17 and you need to know it without a calculator. Furthermore you need to be able to apply it to things like "Jennie wants to invite 9 girls from school to the party and 8 girls from scouts, how many is that?" and from there to "I have 6 dining room chairs and 5 folding chairs, and there's the sofa and love seat in the family room.... Do I need to have the party somewhere else?"
Oh, and if you've been actually taught multiplication tables correctly, you will never, ever forget and need to reconstruct them. Truth be told? I bet the really smart kids in the "white suburban schools" have parents that insist multiplication tables be memorized (just like KIPP or Kumon!) regardless of what the teacher says.
My criticism from the beginning of this thread was that they have kids, teachers, and parents who can't spell words like "repetition."
As for the idea that "some kids" need it and some don't, I don't buy that. A good educational system works for almost all kids, and Zig Englemann has the data to prove it. His opening educational premise is that if a kid is not learning, it might be the teacher's fault and it might be the curriculum's fault, but -- with pre-schoolers and grade-schoolers -- it's almost never the kid's fault. Sure, even with the best teachers and educational materials some kids will go faster than others; that's because we are all different.
And finally, and kid who is willing to put up with 11 hour school days and an extra-long school year, with a parent who is willing to see to it they get there every day is going to be an *achiever*.
Pay - it depends. You can negotiate in some schools. My pay was about 20% over district, but I would have negotiated for more if I had stayed. No Prada here. I didn't do it for the money, though. I did it because though the day was long, I was able to be a more effective teacher due to the school-wide discipline plan.
To shortwoman - I never said I was blaming kids for "needing KIPP." Clearly the educational system in my city is not working for many kids - if it were, KIPP wouldn't be an option. It's not the kid's fault. It's a systematic failure - underfunding, huge class sizes, old crumbling buildings, and in many places, lower expectations for what children are capable of.
Former KIPP teacher is correct in that all NYC public schools would be effective if not only structual conditions improved, but also disciplinary expectations. If discipline improved in schools, they would not be hard-to-staff. But no one thinks of this in terms of retention when it is easier to hire newbies at half the salary.
However, all the money in the world
would never convince me that 11 hours of school each day, weekends and summer is the key. If KIPP were to
cut these hours, their students would still make the same achievements because they and their parents "buy in". The fact that many teachers leave KIPP schools is because it is the old factory model over a professional model. You are lucky if you have time to eat and sleep let alone plan and assess.
The recent article in the NYTimes should prove to Klein and others that our job is more than teaching to the test. Other factors make us more than just teachers. No one really understands this job.
You're absolutely right.
First, "But it's all for everyone, kinda like a communist re-education camp (and I'm told they were often quite effective)."
Hahahahaha! Classic!
Second, there is a place for rote memorization, and too many schools in the last few decades have ditched memorization to the detriment of their students. I HATE watching otherwise bright kids be unable to tell me how much 6 times 8 is-- and they're upperclassmen in high school, taking calculus, fercryinoutloud!
But solely relying on "drill-and-kill" is also not the road to real success. And I too have my suspicions about turning kids into little worker bees.
The thing that makes KIPP or anything else like it different from regular public schools is the ability to choose your students, and to rid oneself of the poorly behaving ones. Until I have the right to have the same environment, then any comparison is by nature suspect.
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