GREAT!!!
))
That was the high time some more traditional airplane keep the ugly beast's butt!
Sorry, of course, I meant "kicking", not "keeping"
Somehow I am not looking forward to the era when all fighters are going to be stealth and carry weapons in the bomb bay.
You know, if I were the F-18 driver that took that shot, I wouldn't want it published all over the internet. For one thing, its a pretty crappy gunshot: way out of plane, tons of closure, and a very high aspect angle. He might have got the pipper on for one frame or two, but he's headed straight to overshoot land, where the Raptor is probably going to reverse and hammer him.
Second, I'm willing to bet the aspect angle is so high that its a training rules violation...not a smart way to go. Remember those 2 F-18s that hit each other a while back? This is the type of thing that causes those accidents...TRs are written in blood.
Also, from when my squadron fought F-18s, there is a 1000' bubble...looks like he's about to break that rule too.
Nice. Way to go Navy, continuing your tradition of being the least professional, least competent, and least combat capable fighter pilots (excuse me, A-V-I-A-T-O-R-S) in existence. Oh, but you can land on a boat, so that makes it all better.
*snark off*
Edit: From when my squadron fought Raptors, is what I meant...
Fighting F-18s is hardly good sport.
"Oh, but you can land on a boat, so that makes it all better."
Can you?
NFO - Doesn't really matter. If all you can do with any skill is accomplish takeoffs and landings, whether its from a boat or not, you're pretty well worthless. That's the administrative part of the mission, dude.
Call me when a MiG blows up or a target gets destroyed because somebody caught a 3-wire, 'cuz that's when I'll be impressed.
Otherwise, you're just wasting extra gas that you might need for those three passes at the boat, when a REAL combat asset could be hauling more, farther, with less limfacs. Oh, and not worrying about "bringback" either.
Lemme guess it's probably Waco doing the Navy bashing around here. Man get a life Waco, the F-22 was killed plain and simple. Don't like it then tough.
I'm not Waco, but I'll credit him for the quote about catching a 3-wire, killing a Mig, etc. I have flown with him though, and he's a lot more friendly to the Navy than I am. Personally, I think they're a bunch of clowns.
I never said the Raptor didn't get killed. Maybe it did, maybe it didn't...you can't tell that from that one frame.
What you CAN tell is that its a crappy gunshot, a training rules violation, and speaks volumes about what a crappy pilot whoever was flying that thing is.
Get a life yourself SH, I'm perfectly happy with mine.
Don't worry, you'll all be replaced by remotely controlled vehicles sometime in the next 30 years...this will make the current argument irrelevant.
Besides, I thought this was all good spirited banter anyway...it's too bad our friends in the Navy/Airforce feel this way about each other. Last time I checked, we were all on the same team.
No need to get personal my friends.
Blue 4,
For the record the shot was a 16 aspect and got as close as 800 feet. What's a little TR violation amongst friends? It's also interesting that the Hornet is down to 180 knots after only 180 degrees of turn.
Sweet...sign me up to fly with those guys...NOT.
Is it Murph?
well, if it violated the training regulations (which im not sure if it did), 3 lives would have been at stake.
Fortunately, there was no accident, and well, the F-22 got "killed."
I've a few questions tho. From the pic posted (hud display) , how likely was a mid-air collision? Cos it sure didn look like the hornet was gonna keep turning after it...
>It's also interesting that the >Hornet is down to 180 knots after >only 180 degrees of turn.
How do you know they had turned 180 degrees by this "static" picture? Were you there? At what airspeed was the Hornet during the start of the engagement?
His max G is 7.6 and he's at 18.5 AOA...the Super Hornet could have kept the turn going a bit more.
Well, you have to know these things when you're a king you know.
quit your wanking Blue4, your just pissed that a piece-o-crap SH is gunning the AF's 150+ million dollar baby ... i've seen numerous videos of dip-ship AF pilots breaking TR's by fishing for a lock in the forward quarter withing 1.5nm, among other TR violations. matter of fact, i fought some kunsan falcon dudes who were surprised when, after their brief that included no TR's, me & my wingie read our ACM training rules. they said they don't normally do it.
by the way, the little circle on the right wingroot of the raptor is called a BATR cue, which indicates where the bullets are hitting at range ... so yea, excessive closure, probably the only shot opportunity the SH could/would get, but in real life, an overshoot wouldn't matter in this case because the raptor would be a fireball
"Fighting F-18s is hardly good sport." ... dude you're hating .. dont hate player, hate the game
In REAL combat ops, there are no Training Regs. Minimum-range be damned, it's just the AF guys making up an excuse for getting on the wrong end of the gun.
Real pilots wouldn't whine about their opponents breaking the rules.
Thought I was cruising past the maternity ward... I'm hearing a LOT of crying going on in here...
"gunning falcons" - if you are so hard over about making sure you brief the training rules, how about making sure some of your own follow the fucking things every once in a while? You want to bitch about guys breaking the 9K pure pursuit rule, then don't be pulling lead for a gunshot (snap, at best) with a 16 aspect angle (or, I'm sorry, to use your back asswards terminology, within 20 degrees of the nose--way less than 45, schmuck) inside of the bubble!!! Its simple ass, don't break the rules, or if you do, don't bitch about somebody else doing it to you next time.
As for the Raptor being a fireball, I'll believe it when I see the remaining frames. I don't know how the Super Snorer works, but since its the same gun, I'm assuming you need 15 frames for a guns kill. There ain't no way in hell the hack in that HUD's cockpit got it, not off that angle off/closure/out-of-plane combination. So how about you stop letting the internet morons think you are a hero, when you really got a snap, NOT sufficient for a kill, then were reversed on, and got HAMMERED by the Raptor for a full up track.
Wish we could see HIS HUD...oh wait, they follow other rules too, about not releasing HUD footage into the unclass realm...guess you boys missed security training too. Must be why we have all these leaks to the Av Mags...ass.
Oh, and any time you want to meet me in my Block 50, I'll be glad to rumble it on against your can't-exceed-the-Mach-with-external-pylons, underpowered, overhyped, overpriced, piece of Supher Shit, fucko. Good thing you guys paint them such pretty colors to look good at airshows, 'cuz your freakin' worthless in combat.
SL - Time to go to your room, kiddo, Mom and Dad are talking here. Since you obviously have no practical experience, I'm cutting you a break before I call you a fucko too.
Gentlemen,
You are supposed to be officers and gentlemen. How about acting like it. Your troops read these comments and they know your call signs.
Naval Aviators and Air Force Aviators both have the same purpose, to support and defend the Constitution of the United States; to go where and when POTUS says. Once there, kill the bad guys in anyway you can. Nothing else counts.
Train the way you fight and fight the way you train.
Tomcat Gunner, USN (Ret)
Gunner you're absolutely right - I'm pretty shocked by the comments I've read here today. I always thought it was just us enlisted pukes who "dogged" eachother. VFA-11 was acting as red air, I'm sure the Raptors got a fair share of their own "kills." If we didn't have to spend all that $ on our floating airfields because the Air Force can't get to a hot spot quick enough, maybe we would be transitioning to the F-22 or the F-35 faster. While the F-22 & F-15 jocks at Langley are sleeping in on Sundays, our Tomcat and Hornet "clowns" are in the bounce pattern late at night at Fentress. By the way, when was the last time the 1 FW deployed? Isn't that all they do is ACM in Hampton Roads? How'd the ultimate fighter pilots, hand picked for the Raptor program get hit by the slow, heavy, Navy inferior a/c? A guns kill none the less? Oh and rumor has it that some of the VFA-11 guys were OCS grads, how terrible would that be? AFA guys hearing Navy fighter pilots calling, "guns, guns, guns" on their baby. I hope VF-31 fights the F-22 with the F-14D, I'd love to see more gun camera footage.
GO NAVY!
Wow...some pretty heavy flaming going on.
The only thing I'd add fuel to the fire for on the comment that "training rules aren't for combat." That's actually pretty silly logic, and I'm guessing it either came from a non-flier or from someone who's only a wingman. TRs, as many better people than I have stated, are written in blood. Though you aren't required to brief them up before combat sorties, it's still a good idea to follow them so you don't get into an a$$-shining moment when you shouldn't. Key TRs like minimum recovery altitudes, minimum slant ranges, minimum airspeeds, bubbles, etc. make sense whether you're in combat or not...so don't think they all disappear just because we're at war.
However, I'll also add one more statement: no single snap (and that is what this guns shot clearly is) is valid for a kill, period. I agree that this is a VALID snap, but (TR bust or not), this Hornet driver is definitely setting himself up for the overshoot and subsequent role swap by the F-22. But hey, what fighter pilot out there HASN'T put his fangs through the floorboards for that elusive shot?
Thanks Gunner, I was about to say the same thing too. That behaviour was more like hooligans rather than gentlemen.
Concur...this hateful flaming is shameful. The JFACC looks at his assets in terms of capabilities they bring to the fight. Each of these aircraft (as do others) bring certain capabilities to the table. Last time I looked, the Raptor and Super Hornet are both US assets and aren't going to be pitted against each other down range. This was a training event and stranger things have happened in that realm.
That said, the second guessing and service/community trashing that has arisen in this thread and others on the web based on ONE FRAME of HUD video is mind boggling. I suspect none of the "haters" have the real story from either cockpit or even what the initial setup was...how the conclusions stated have risen to super heated level makes no sense at all. My two cents is how about a round of "super chill" pills and wait for better info before ranting.
gentlemen,
i don't see the flaming? nothing Blue5 has said have i taken personal. i have think skin and can handle it. he brings up a good point about TR's; hopefully they debriefed it appropriately. anybody who says TR's are BS are full of shit themselves. anyways, he thinks the USN/MC is jacked up, i think the AF is jacked up. in the end, we are on the same team. but until he is going feet dry with me in my strike package, fight's on!
blue5,
how's this for TR's ...
http://video.google.com/videopla...2584312&
pl=true
then read this ...
http://www.f-16.net/news_article774.html
then do a google search of F-16 or F-15 HUD footage and see what it brings up ...
and then come talk to me about "professionalism" and "security" violations.
a 1/2 second of BATR for a tracking shot, about 10 frames ... we are only seeing one frame, true, but it's funny to see the piece-of-shit SH in a very offensive position on the AF precious and "untouchable" F-22. how he got there, i don't care, it could have been a 4v1 WVR set, and he's the only guy left after the Raptor schwacked the other 3 SH's, it's that he's there. agreed, only the guys there know what all transpired. it's all about the perception people get from that HUD footage
by the way, i'm in a C not E/F's, i know your proud of your Block50's, i've enjoyed gunn, uh, fighting them, in the past. anytime ... i'm close to W-122/161 ... you'll do the standard F-16 9G break across the horizon, while i go out of plane, point my nose at you, get you slow, and then own you
oh, and my pecker is bigger than yours!
Here are the facts as I have heard them.
HA B-Fly set. Don't know the Airspeed, but it was non-standard from an AF side (usually 425) I think it was 350 kts. Goes vertical. Frame is taken from the top of the first leaf. Raptor sets wings to go over the top again. SH points and gets valid gun shot. Aspect at its' worst was 18. Min range was
Here are the facts as I have heard them.
HA B-Fly set. Don't know the Airspeed, but it was non-standard from an AF side (usually 425) I think it was 350 kts. Goes vertical. Frame is taken from the
Frame is taken from the top of the first leaf. Raptor sets wings to go over the top again. SH points and gets valid gun shot. Aspect at its' worst was 18. Min range was
Min range was
300' (Raptor bubble is 1000'). Raptor was not "concerned" about guns, but was concern on the "dangerous situation developing" KIO.
Rumor has it the SH driver was on his fini-flight and had the goal of getting some footage. Mission accomplished...valid shot from a difficult position. However, this had the makings for an incident. Good on the Raptor Driver for the KIO. Bad on the SH for pressing on a training mission. Luckily nothing bad happenned here in a training enviroment (combat is another story).
Once again, nice shot...but I don't want to fight him.
No whining...just lessons learned
It is not plane that makes you the ACE; but the pilot in the plane that makes the ACE.
That is why I like seeing the Air Force, Navy, TopGun, and Red Flag.
The American pilots have been in mock Dog Fights already and learning to better. So, when time comes they have flewn 100's of Dog Fights and know what to do to be a Master of the Skies.
GO American Pilots!!
I just wonder who was more suprised at the kill... The Hornet pilot, or the Raptor pilot... You think about it, with all the Hype the Raptor's recieved, some of it was bound to go to his head.
NavAir all the way!
hey...love to see all the testosterone flowing I would rather you guys were scrappy than officers and gents. all you guys are heros! navy and air force....I'm just a civi that loves your site.
cheers
I think it's time you guys all started DCM against F-4 and F-14. Of course the F-14 has to be single engine with no AWG-9, no Phoenix, older model AIM-7 and AIM-9, guns OOC 50% of the time. F-4s in good shape, but with only older AIM-7 and AIM-9 and guns OOC 50% of the time.
When you get so you can beat them everytime, pack your sea bag (B-4 bag for you Air Force guys), go to Iran and kick some butt.
In the meantime, remember radar is good, IR sensor is good too, but they still put that mirror in the cockpit for a reason.
Check six and on landing, keep the plexiglass part on top!
blue4, guys like you are the reason cool AF pilot get no respect from anyone else. Have fun under 25 alpha, and then bingo home. We'll still be inside your circle.
Before the end of a WTD to Spain in the late 80’s an F-111F (McCool) got a missile lock on an F-18.
In the mid 90’s in Tunisia, an F-5 got its guns on a Triple Nickel F-16.
During Red Flag, more than once I have radar acquired F-117’s.
Your HUD display means absolutely nothing, and it’s not even worth wasting anymore of my time on it.
Scorpion 2, out
Before the end of a WTD to Spain in the late 80’s an F-111F (McCool) got a missile lock on an F-18.
In the mid 90’s in Tunisia, an F-5 got its guns on a Triple Nickel F-16.
During Red Flag, more than once I have radar acquired F-117’s.
Your HUD display means absolutely nothing, and it’s not even worth wasting anymore of my time on it.
Scorpion 2, out
Had this been a F-14 vs F-22 there would be no problem
Heh...
Kinda gives you another reason to be pissed over the whole Tomcat lineage masacre...
What should happens in next coop india? If a F18 can gun down a Raptor , what should india SU-30 do....
Die long before he's WVR.
Delightful dialogue but don't lose your superior argument, or position by fouling it with language that you couldn't use in a public quote.
Dick Powell
superhornet is a very dangerous plane in the air and can hold its own very well when it comes to close in dogfighting. Those people who always bash the SH is out of their mind. It's a great plane that nobody wants to fight whether in BVR or WVR.
good for SH to prove its dogfighter ability.for you guys out there with block 50 stop dreaming you got the best kick ass plane.
dudes, the army is way cooler. no way that f-18 cold take down one o my heliochoppers. we'd kill you with a toe missile before you could wipe your ass
JudgeF15E,
Combat requires a kill,
Training Rules do not.
This is not an overshoot for a Hornet or Rhino.
Pmug
Let me begin by saying that while the Super Bug did get a simulated "kill" on the Raptor, its not the first time it has happened and does not present an embarasment to the Air Force. Nor does this show the Air Force is wasting billions on the 22.
F-15s out of Langley AFB have bagged simulated kills of their own in engagements against the F-22. That is what Air Force Captain John Echols, detached to the 27th FS said in the recent edition of Air Force Magazine.
Quoting Echols "the F-15s at Langley 'do a real good job' as adversaries and that sometimes the F-15s 'win' against an F-22, but [those kills are] a rare event. When it does, it provides ample fodder for tactics evaluation."
The gun kill on the Raptor by just happened to be a rarity. In any case it will help make the Raptor driver a better warfighter if you ask me. The purpose of Red Flag is to train our pilots is it not? As I said on a forum I frequent, the Navy is merely spinning one seconds worth of HUD footage. Given the 22's performance to date, I feel that it is worth the investment.
Re Blue4:
Stop whining, you make the USAF look bad. Er, worse.
From the looks if things to me, it looks like the hornet is gonna overshoot its target and the F22 rapter is going to curve around and shot the f18 to hell.The black box in the corner dosnt mean jack. Its probly just a mess up in the cam but the navy has to say that it indicated that the trigger was squeezed to make them selfs look goos. So, Basicly all that pic tells me is that the navy just lost 1 piolt and 1 F18.
good sorry
QUOTE NAVYAO"Gunner you're absolutely right - I'm pretty shocked by the comments I've read here today. I always thought it was just us enlisted pukes who "dogged" eachother. VFA-11 was acting as red air, I'm sure the Raptors got a fair share of their own "kills." If we didn't have to spend all that $ on our floating airfields because the Air Force can't get to a hot spot quick enough
*****Uhhh...Were usually first in the area and first in the air...may want to check some war records****
, maybe we would be transitioning to the F-22 or the F-35 faster. While the F-22 & F-15 jocks at Langley are sleeping in on Sundays, our Tomcat and Hornet "clowns" are in the bounce pattern late at night at Fentress. By the way, when was the last time the 1 FW deployed?
****Ummm...you don't just transition to a new aircraft overnight. Langley deploys out the ass actually.****
Isn't that all they do is ACM in Hampton Roads?
****Your apparently the pro, you should know who and where the ACM training is being conducted. Guess you don't, because you somehow apparently have the ASSumption that the Navy pilots are doing something else.****
How'd the ultimate fighter pilots, hand picked for the Raptor program get hit by the slow, heavy, Navy inferior a/c?
****Just remember, you said it.****
A guns kill none the less? Oh and rumor has it that some of the VFA-11 guys were OCS grads, how terrible would that be?
****Not that bad. Your comments allude you to be a GED grad and we don't think bad of you.****
AFA guys hearing Navy fighter pilots calling, "guns, guns, guns" on their baby. I hope VF-31 fights the F-22 with the F-14D, I'd love to see more gun camera footage.
****Yeah thats totally possible as the Raptor wasn't really designed as a close in dogfighter. Course you put it in its eliment BVR and see what happens. Anyone think that maybe this was done on purpose to give the Superbug drivers a chance to hone skills on advanced type aircraft?? These couple frames just show me some good effective training.***
Blue4 obviously has a case of PHALLITOSIS from hoovering too much Air FARCE shnitzle...
Naval/Marine Corps Aviation > USAF
Blue4 obviously has a case of PHALLITOSIS from hoovering too much Air FARCE shnitzle...
Naval/Marine Corps Aviation > USAF
Naval Aviators...Down and Dirty Cowboys and Cowgirls, makin' mincemeat of prettyboy brokeback-ass Airforce wusses. Blue4 If I had a screenname like yours I'd shoot myself.
You know I am in the USAF and some of the comments here lead me to believe there is some who are not who they say they are in here. Any real pilot would say that the capabilites of the planes helps but in the end the better pilot wins. Hey the F-22 got "killed" good on the SH pilot. The F-22 isnt invincible. The better pilot won here.
Mmmm, this is a very interesting site, I'm sitting here in Australia researching a documentary on the suitability of Super Hornets to the Australian environment. The questions being asked here are: why not F15's?, Wouldn't SH's would be in a world of trouble if they ran into Sukhoi MK30's?, why are we decommisioning our F111's early?
Just the facts gentlemen ... the crazed fighter jock bile is amusing but not really helpful.
Feel free to email me harley.wayne@abc.net.au
Harls
Hmmmmm capabilities?
Vietnam Kill ratio
Navy 12: 1
Airforce 3:1
Maybe landing on the "boat" can make you better after all.
Where is the nearest boat - carrier - ? Not where is the neared AF base?
Being mobile has its advantages of course
strange, some "real world fighters" talk about overshoot for the F-18...
I'm not familiar with F-18s HUD, but if my reading is correct, it's more or less stopped (180 kts IAS if I'm not mistaken), letting its nose fall down, following gently the F-22 while it dives... there's no no way that the raptor, or any other fighter for that matter (except maybe the harrier, but not from that position) turns inside a 180-knot turn... just can't happen... what's more, with the raptor breaking into it, the SH doesn't even need to push its engines to follow, but just let the gravity do its job and let go the camera.
as for language, sorry for you Blue4, but when I read your comments, you sound more like a frustrated teenager (probably reading a lot of air-magazines, for the terminoliogy employed) than a grown up fighter pilot... if you're really over 15, why not behave like that in public?
relax a bit, man, you'll live longer
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