AmericanPapist Comments
Let's assume this whole thing is true. I see no reason at all for one (Bertone) to talk about it. This borders on silliness. We don't need ghosts from the past to tell us what to do, and it is quite easy to play the Freudian here (remember, Freud's big area was interptation of dreams, not you know what.)
"It's hard to argue with the new boss AND the old boss..."
Great line.
As for "we don't need ghosts from the past..."
This is called discerning divine inspiration. I want to hear about this. I have had similar situations occur to me especially during communion.
Karen : )
Sounds like a good sign to me, dreaming of John Paul the Great and Busy. Seems like that good soul's decided to hang around his old home and keep an eye on things, helping his friend Benedict "from the other side".
I don't think the Cardinal would confess such a thing lightly, Ed, for precisely the reasons you state. But if he was asking for a sign to help him decide, what's wrong with that? He wasn't asked lightly.
I was glad that Cardinal Bertone talked about it.It does not border on silliness.Bertone is a Salesian after all,the order founded by Don Bosco.Anyone acquainted with St.John Bosco knows he had a lot of dreams and he told people of them.You can buy a book of his dreams. Like father like son.
The above posts confirm my points (well, sortof), and I anticipated such replies. There is, pace Bosco, with whose life I too am familiar, a pious but misguided tendency today to want divine affirmation of what are, strictly speaking, our mundane decisions. That in turn, while springing from laudable roots, lends itself to superstition. Bertone's record of service to the Church needs no defense; his personal decision-making process should have stayed personal, precisely because it so depends on the person. Leaders should, I think, talk about personal experiences only to the degree it serves as an example for others, and I don't think Bertone's dream should serve an example for how others should make big decisions in life, ie, wait for a dream to give you the answer.
The small university I attended for my undergrad had a Christian Studies program that was, essentially, a degree in the historical study of Christian spirituality. One of the classes that was offered, which I took, was entitled, "Messages from Heaven/Musings of the Soul: Exploring the Dream Experience in Christian Spirituality".
The People of God have had their shard of Bertones and Ed Peters, and there are many arguments for and against God's speaking to us in dreams. I agree that dream interpretation should be taken in context, and that the revelation gained is personal in its limitations. But, we have no good reason to believe that God does not speak to us in dreams. It was through dreams that God revealed Jacob's ladder, spoke to Joseph and to Pharoh, guided Gideon, called Samuel, warned Joseph to flee with Jesus and Mary to Egypt and to return after the king's death, directed the Magi away from Herod, indicated the truth to Pilate's wife about Christ's holiness, and led Paul, not to Russia, but to Macedonia for his missionary travels. We are told that, in the last days, God "will pour out (his) spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams."
There are numerous examples of this promise being fulfilled in lives of the saints through the ages.
Taking any office in the Church is not a personal decision. And any and all important decisions in our lives, personal or not, should involve prayer and openness to God's word, no matter how it might come. I am very happy to see that Bertone, far from being superstitious, is sensitive to the promptings of the Holy Spirit through the communion of saints.
Eric, who here do you think is unaware of various Scriptural examples of dreams so that you need to recite them for us? And besides, reciting them proves what, exactly? Max Kolbe had, and late in life disclosed, a private revelation that he would be saved. Ergo, anyone who sincerely believes that he has a revelation from God that he, too, is "saved" is to be taken at his word?
One who follows "Church politics" might find it ironic that Bertone appeals to JP2, of all people, for confirmation that he would be a good Sec of State; after all, JP2's Sec of State was precisely the man that B16 did not want to keep.
In the end, I rather suspect that Bertone's remarks, in his mind, had an off-the-cuff, almost local, feel to them in his mind; but Church leaders need to understand that in an age of instant global communication, such remarks can be taken in many ways, and that not unreasonably.
Let me sum up this way: I'm uncomfortable whenever a world leader says "I made this big decision because a deceased pope appeared to me in dream and told me to do it." Doubtless, though, I am the only who feels that way. More's the pity for me, I guess.
It seems there are only 3 possibilities:
1. The guy had a dream, and John Paul really spoke to him.
2. He had a dream, but it was only a dream and was not inspired by the Holy Spirit.
3. He's lying.
How about possibility #4? The story itself is wrong re the sequence of events and therefore, in my mind, suspect?
Didn't the announcement come out in June? According to the story, it says that Bertone took until Aug 15 or 16 (after the "dream")to accept the position. Now we all know that Papa Bear's intentions were announced 'way before this - Bertone's appointment wouldn't have been announced had he not accepted, right?
Sounds fishy to me.
Aloha from Hawaii ..
Supposedly the Holy Father made his decision a year before it was announced. Perhaps the dream took place last August???
The good cardinal had a dream and he told people about it.Shame on him! Now everybody begins to critique his "dream" and even call into question the person's judgement who appeared to him in that dream. .The secretary of state designate had a dream (he did not say vision) and all the little munchkins begin to quibble about it.I doubt that His Eminence is bothered.
Fr. FM, the link to your home page does not work. If you would read calmly my posts, you will see that I question not the dream, but the prudence of his discussing it as he did. The Cardinal Secretary of State is not just anybody, and things that we munchkins might share privately among ourselves could be inappropriate when shared publically by higher-ups. At least I think so, but there are, I suppose, those who feel that high-ranking prelates are incapable of lapses of judgement, or at least that they should be above comment by, well, munchkins.
I think maybe Cardinal Bertone was willing to accept the post, but just could not shake second thoughts. So what's wrong with a dream that pulls it all together, tells him maybe what he already knows? And who better to carry out the message than good JPII? In any case, whether it was an honest dream or a true visitation he must have realized the reaction he'd get when he admitted what happened.
I think it was unwise of Cardinal Bertone to talk about his dream. It was certainly a "complete" dream. My dreams usually are fragmentary. Bertone's sounds more like an Italian opera, a little histrionic. I liked Benedict's response: "Well, don't be afraid, then." Perhaps he didn't put that much faith in it, either.
Ed,
I appreciate your comments. I didn't really consider who I was addressing.
I agree with you that pastoral care should be taken by high-level authorities in reference to their personal spiritual encounters and interpretations. The discernment of dreams is a highly subjective process and is prone to abuse and misunderstanding, especially by people over eager to experience the supernatural or who are drawn to the 'New Age'. It would be prudent for a prelate like Bertone to be careful about when and how he mentioned such experiences.
My concern was more with your suggestion that the notion itself is silly. Given the biblical and traditional precedent, it seems to me that to regard the idea of God or the saints engaging us through dreams is silly, is to dismiss important incidents of God's revelation as silly.
I'm not familiar with Max Kolbe's private revelation. But, don't all private religious experiences within the Church contribute inductively to religious belief? Kolbe has a private revelation that he is saved, ergo my private revelation is not necessarily sentimental silliness?
From the patriarchs, to the apostles, to St. John Bosco - dreams are a recognized charism. Ergo, Bertone's dream may be a valid charism in response to prayer for guidance?
I have added the question marks in honest recognition that I am, in fact, a munchkin.
Regards,
Eric
We munchkins have to stick together.
At first, I leaned against any problems with Cardinal Bertone speaking of his dream, as he did.
I saw nothing in Ed's post which would lead me to believe that such heavenly dreams do not happen. Rather, Ed is just suggesting that it would be most prudent if at least certain dreams are not discussed, especially in this case.
It was this statement by Ed Peters, which has me in agreement that it would be best he hadn't.
"I don't think Bertone's dream should serve an example for how others should make big decisions in life, ie, wait for a dream to give you the answer."
It is a most valid point, especially these days when people look for the BVM in their cappucino. I also am concerned that today's faithful look for too many "signs and wonders". While this is ok for someone who really needs a boost in their faith, it should be unnecessary for the truly faithful. Our Lord certainly knows some people need that boost, such as when he permitted Thomas to touch his wound. But Thomas is not who we should be imitating in this regard.
All this having been said, this munchkin says - what's done is done.
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