AmericanPapist Comments
Because he's not merely trying to appease anyone. He's expressing his honest respect for Islam.
I'm sorry this is off-topic, but I wondered what your commentary on today's ridiculously titled New York Times cover story, "Where Faith Abides, Employees Have Few Rights".
I just don't understand why the pope would state that he respects the quran, because the quran teaches that Jesus was never crucified. How can the pope respect that? If we as Christians were to remove the crucified Christ, then we deny our own gift of salvation. How can we believe one thing and say we respect a book that perverts the gospel and the crucifixion?? Isn't anyone concerned about this public contradiction?
I also worry about those Christians that have not yet read the quran for themselves, because they could look at the comments by the pope as an endorsement of the quran.
Liquid,
Just because something is in error doesn't mean you can't respect it. That's why we respect Pagan philosophers but not pagan idolatry. That's why we respect western culture but not its corrupt elements (such as abortion).
I don't think Islam has revealed more truth than Christianity. But I don't think there are ONLY evil things in the Koran. There's just nothing new there.
There's a book by G.K. Chesterton called Orthodoxy. If I remember correctly, Chesterton concluded that Christianity, and namely, Catholicism, is the final religion. There really are no more pagan religions possible.
---Just because something is in error doesn't mean you can't respect it. That's why we respect Pagan philosophers but not pagan idolatry. That's why we respect western culture but not its corrupt elements (such as abortion).
Jason | 10.09.06 - 5:38 pm | #
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Jason, the pope didn't suggest that he was ONLY respecting 'the people' of Islam, no, he said he respected the holy book of a great religion! Don't you see the difference or are you under the deception that the quran is a person?
One can respect a person without respecting their ideology. Had the pope said that he respected persons of Islam intead of their book, perhaps your comments would have made sense.
The doctorine that is via the quran is a total perversion of the gospels. For a believer of the gospels to state they respect the opposite of that doesn't make much sense does it? I mean it's ok to say that one respects the others to have the right to disagree but that isn't what was implied here was it??
If one has read the quran they would have quickly understood that to respect the words --which it claims to be the direct words of allah --one would have to thus admit that the message of the gospels of the bible are in conflict, since the quran distorts the good news that Jesus was crucified on the cross for the remission of man's sins.
In fact, believers of the bible are even warned about this...
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:6-9)
Isn't that the very birth of Islam, that an angel gabriel came to mohammed and gave him the "other story" from allah?
My point is Jason, that Jesus was crucified or not? Can you respect both that Jesus was crucified or that He wasn't? If God gave his only begotten son to attone for mankind's sins on the cross, why would He come over 600 years later and tell mohammed that it never happened?
While you think on that, do ask yourself who would come after the truth and try to distort it and in the process try to rob you of your salvation!
Would one hold that doctrine in high esteem? Would one respect that doctine via it's book?
I think it has to be viewed in light of the proposed visit to Turkey, which I consider to be the intention of a Very Brave Man. He, or his minders, might have wished to increase his chances of survival.
I am nevertheless disappointed. Even the German text has been doctored so it no longer reads as he read it. Too bad, I've still got the podcast! And, while I think it right to have respect for Judaism, which preceded Christianity, and such faiths as Hinduism, which both preceded Christianity and had no direct relationship with it, something's got to be said about a false prophet who goes making up a new religion in full knowledge of the existence, at least, of Christianity (if not the truth of the Gospel). You can respect the people who live good lives and earnestly seek God within the bounds of Islamic religious beliefs and practices, but let's stop respecting its poxy book and the content of its erroneous faith. I keep asking myself, what would Jesus say? (Begone, false prophet, stop leading my people astray?) I don't imagine St Paul would've been too impressed, either (or St Peter, St James, St John, et al). And certainly not St Francis, who desired and sought (but was denied by Divine providence) martyrdom for the sake of the conversion of the Musulmans (people forget that and concentrate on the pet blessing).
But then, his Holiness is far smarter than I. As you remark, 'the respect due to the holy book of a great religion' is beautifully meaningless. God bless 'im.
Jason, the pope didn't suggest that he was ONLY respecting 'the people' of Islam, no, he said he respected the holy book of a great religion! Don't you see the difference or are you under the deception that the quran is a person?
Of course not. There is a lot of beautiful literature about God, and the praises due to him, in the Koran.
The Pope also respects pagan philosophy. Not merely pagan philosophers, but the actual philosophy they produced.
*That doesn't mean he is a pagan, or supports pagan errors. It means he respects the attempt of the pagan philosophers to develop a system of thought. In the same way, he respects the attempt of Muslims to develop a religion and be faithful to what they believe God has revealed, much of what they believe being so close to what we believe about God. There are also many things we disagree on, most notably, the deity of Our Lord. But we can still respect the religion, while seeking to bear witness to what we have received in Christ.
The Church has never held the doctrine of the pagans in contempt, but after purifying it from all error, crowned it with Christian wisdom. --Pope Pius XII
But paganism pre-dated Christianity. Islam postdates Christianity and is in some senses deliberately set up to oppose it. It adds nothing new that's worth having. I can say this because I'm not a public person and I'm not about to go on a public voyage to Turkey.
Why does something have to add something "new" to be respected? Most Christian thought doesn't add anything new, but reflects on old truths, but we still like to do so. The Koran contains many beautiful praises of God that even Christians can learn from. God forbid a book should teach someone to be good and worship God, because they'll be judged one day. We wouldn't want that!
The old saying "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good" applies here, and this is why Pope Benedict (and the Church) respects Islam and other world religions for offering an honest search for goodness and truth. That doesn't mean there is no difference between us and them, or that we cannot confront those differences. It just means that the fundamental respect remains.
You seem to think the Holy Father says what he says because he's worried about appeasing people. I don't. I believe the Holy Father, while of course wanting to repair damaged relations with Muslims, is also using this as an opportunity to express the respect he has for believers of other faiths. He takes this, of course, from the Second Vatican Council, which noted that the "exchange of gifts" inherent to dialogue cannot be one way. Both partners can learn and appreciate the other, even in the midst of critical dialogue.
Jason, the Son of God became incarnate, died on the Cross, harrowed Hell and filled it with the love of God, rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven, that hadn't been done before. It was all new. We're not just talking about values, which many religions hold in common, but of the necessity of a new belief system that contradicts the one that we hold to be true. Christianity alone attested to revealed truths about God's activity in the world, which happened at a particular time in history. A book saying beautiful things about its particular deity is all very nice, and it might well teach good values which are better upheld by its adherents than they are by many of us (myself included), but it doesn't add anything to the revelation. The point in historical time when a religion arises is important. Older religions never set out to differ from newer religions. Islam directly contradicts the central revelation of Christianity. Sure, we can respect its adherents for their sincerity and piety, and for those values which we, and they, and many other followers of major world religions hold in common, and we can admire its beautiful literature. But it doesn't stop it being the teaching of a false prophet whose effect has been actively to undermine and virtually to obliterate Christian civilization in lands where the Fathers once lived and taught. Give it the respect due to it, by all means. But no more. That is his Holiness's genius--he knows where to stop.
Actually, Thomas, a full version with footnotes was promised long ago, possibly (I'm not sure) before the reaction began.
I have heard it said, and I think it worth noting, that under sharia, in trials for blasphemy, no witnesses can be called, for to give evidence of blasphemy they would have to quote the offensive exclamation. It's as though the idea of reciting another's words in any official function without believing them were foreign to portions of islamic thought. So I begin to doubt how much qualification and context could have quelled the unhappy reaction to Regensburg.
I also don't expect this is a reliable feature of islamic behaviour; e.g. if it were determined that a president of iran, say, lied or somesuch, or quoted some remark of President Bush against bad behaviour within Hamas, I would be surprised if many people would rise against the iranian or othersuch president.
I don't suppose it was said differently in the original text (was it in German, Italian or Latin, perhaps?).. In any case, I think we should look closely at the qualifier: "the respect due to ((the holy book) of a (great religion))." [Please pardon the parsing aids.]
What makes Islam "a great religion?" Perhaps in the sense that it has endured for centuries and has multitudes of believers, rather than in the sense that it is a wonderful or amazing religion.
Next, how much respect should be accorded a book that is held to be holy by a great religion? Should there be absolutely no respect for it? To afford no respect for a book (or the religion behind it) is to be
- indifferent to it, or
- in disagreement with every aspect of it.
Clearly we can be neither, for the book is significant in world events, and it includes both things that we can agree with and things that we disagree with. IMHO, the respect accorded to the Qu'ran or Islam has as its object those parts of each that we can agree with, apart from the respect that we have for Muslim believers as human beings.
There is also the dialogue angle: how does Papa Benedict wish to proceed in that front? I've read someplace, and noted it down at my blog, that he had once written about the "elderly brother" role of the Catholic faith, taking seriously a responsibility to care for the other brother (non-Christians) and bring him to light:
"In relation to Christian brotherhood this means that, however important it is for the Church to grow into the unity of a single brotherhood, she must always remember that she is only one of two sons, one brother beside another, and that her mission is not to condemn the wayward brother, but to save him. The Church, it is true, must unify herself to form a strong inner brotherhood in order to be truly one brother. But she does not seek to be one brother in order to finally shut herself off from the other; rather she seeks to be one brother because only in this way can she fulfill her task toward the other, living for whom is the deepest meaning of her existence, which itself is grounded wholly in the existence of Jesus Christ."
Respect and affirmation of truths within Islam would be a starting point for dialogue. Without them, there is no point in dialogue. There is only an adversarial competition: me against you, all that I believe in against all that you believe in.
Jason---You comment with "That doesn't mean he is a pagan, or supports pagan errors. It means he respects the attempt of the pagan philosophers to develop a system of thought. In the same way, he respects the attempt of Muslims to develop a religion and be faithful to what they believe God has revealed, much of what they believe being so close to what we believe about God. There are also many things we disagree on, most notably, the deity of Our Lord. But we can still respect the religion, while seeking to bear witness to what we have received in Christ."
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Jason, I have never said the pope was a pagan! But you have in your explanation tried to speak for the pope yet what you describe here is not about respecting people but you are calling for a respect for a perverted ideology knowing it's a lie and yet that is exactly what Satan does...because Satan is the father of all lies and creates distortion and twist the truth because he takes bits and pieces of the truth and perverts it. Why would anyone ask Christians to respect that? Why would anyone ask Christians to respect a lie? This is what the Quran does. If you have read the quran, you can see where it's basically bits and pieces taken from the bible with an added twist and distortion and yet you are here trying to present it as truth in a divine way! Who are you kidding? Have you actually read the quran? What you are implying is that Allah is the same God that the Judeo-Christians worship! Again I will ask you,if that were truth then "Why would God give his only begotten son to suffer on the cross for man's sin and then 600 years later send an angel to mohammed and say it never happened?"
2 John 1:9-11 teaches us 9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
Unfortunately, your way of thinking is what Islam is counting on Jason...because if you will tolerate it as something holy then perhaps it can exist in your mind and in your heart long enough to confuse you. Today this is going on all over the place, where muslims are chanting the same thing you are...lets focus on what we have in common. But you see Jason, this lie that we have Jesus in common is the biggest deception Islam has created for the western world, because the Jesus of the quran is NOT the same Jesus of the Gospels. To try to decieve anyone into believing that they are is just wrong. It's dishonest. You go on to say, "there are also many things we disagree on, most notably, the deity of Our Lord" and yet Jason, this is what the gospel and the good news is all about! You can't purify the quran's error by eliminating Christ on the cross! Why should I or anyone respect another gospel or another christ t
Why should I or anyone respect another gospel or another christ?
I do think that all this will make everyone think hard and testify on what the truth is. I mean, one has to be honest with themselves first and either believe Jesus was crucified or not. I personally will not entertain the lie that I respect or hold with esteen the quran or for that matter that the Islamic pagan god is the same God of the Gospels!
Perhaps, since muslims have chosen to pick on the pope for speaking the truth, and where the vatican has to beef up security or worry about his travels and safety, that the church should rethink NOSTRA AETATE where it's position is...
The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting. Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.
Jeff---Respect and affirmation of truths within Islam would be a starting point for dialogue. Without them, there is no point in dialogue. There is only an adversarial competition: me against you, all that I believe in against all that you believe in.
Jeff, without Christ's work on the cross, there is no salavation! With Christ all things are possible! As for competition, what are you suggesting we are all competing for? As it is...we are fighting for our freedom of speech and our freedoms to question and scrutinize without death threats! This is the problem...one can't have dialogue with someone that refuses to allow you to think or question! That is what Islam is all about...dictating! If Islam would allow questions or criticism then we wouldn't have all this riot and rage. But this is what the quran is all about, it's like a little black hat of magic, where the follower can pull out a rabbit here and if that doesn't fit then it is allowed to pull out a contradicting one to suit the situation. But all along the way, one is to NEVER question it or scrutinize because Allah knows best and the quran is the direct commands from Allah.
Essentially the dialogue is to be between cultures before it can be between religions. Between cultures, because we all have to live in the one world, preferably without blowing each other up. Between religions, with great difficulty, and not on the level of serious theological discussion, since fundamental doctrines of one (e.g., the Holy Trinity) are considered blasphemy by the other. There will have to be a lot of disagreement to disagree.
"Jeff, without Christ's work on the cross, there is no salavation!"
Amen.
"With Christ all things are possible!"
Amen.
"As for competition, what are you suggesting we are all competing for?"
My point was that it becomes a competition if there is no dialogue, and there is no dialogue if there is no starting point. It becomes a competition of truths, rather than an engagement of truths, in which we, the body of Christ, can point out:
1. the truths that they do have in Islam; and
2. the rest in Islam which do not resonate with those truths nor with reason.
We want to avoid a clash, where one has to absolutely lose and the other has to absolutely win.
"As it is...we are fighting for our freedom of speech and our freedoms to question and scrutinize without death threats! This is the problem...one can't have dialogue with someone that refuses to allow you to think or question!"
Which is where we have to start. I think Papa Benedict has started something good -- fiery, but good, in that Moslems are being confronted with the intractability of their own extremists who are not interested in dialogue at all. Perhaps such occasions will draw the moderates among them into dialogue.
"That is what Islam is all about...dictating! .."
I understand the frustration, but it has to start with every effort to dialogue. What is the logical conclusion to your statements of frustration at the hardness of heart among Moslems? Giving up on evangelizing them? Obliteration? It is unnacceptable for the body of Christ to take those roads. As you said, "with Christ, all things are possible." Even giving people with hearts of stone new hearts of flesh instead. That is work for the Holy Spirit. Our work is to remain a sign of contradiction to them, a city built on top of a hill, a sign through how we love one another in the Church, and how we love even our enemies -- which closes certain options to us and prevents us from giving up on dialogue.
I just can't fathom why everybody thinks the Pope is engaged in some odd diplomatic dance.
The Pope is saying precisely what he means. He's sorry he offended people. He respects Islam and the Quran. He respects it BECAUSE it's the Holy Book of a great religion. That religion has greatness, recognized by the Catholic Church which has said it "esteems" the Muslims in the Second Vatican Council.
So, all this criticism is misplaced. I'm sorry to see it here. The Pope loves Muslims and respects Islam. He is not uncritical, but he respects it. He is not spoiling for a fight with Muslims. He brought up the quotation of Emp. Manuel because 1. He was Greek, so 2. He saw the need for a connection between religion and reason (illustrating the Pope's point) and 3. When he thought he saw no connection in Islam, he was offended and had a low opinion of the religion.
Point 3 is where the point gets missed by Muslims and by some people here. Manuel could have been 100% right about Islam or 100% wrong and the quotation would have been equally apropos.
No, the Pope isn't currying favor or "apologizing" for some effect. He's sorry he caused the ruckus because he upset people and he wants to calm them down and assure them he doesn't think badly of them.
Salom states,"The dialogue is between cultures before it can be between religions."
Jeff sees "respect and affirmation of truths as a starting point for dialoque."
Any dialoque must start with those areas of agreement before it can proceed to areas of difference. Respect includes knowing those points upon which there can be no compromise. One of those points has been mentioned on several other posts--the reality of salvation through Christ Jesus. That salvation is for all men, not simply those of us who have come to know the Truth. Bridging that gap will not be done by man alone but rather by the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit. We as God's servants can step back and let God do His job.
Taking this from a different perspective, Army generals of different countries may respect each other. One may respect the other's tactics or the discipline of the men under his command. Each general however knows where his loyalty lies.
Jeff--"My point was that it becomes a competition if there is no dialogue, and there is no dialogue if there is no starting point. It becomes a competition of truths, rather than an engagement of truths, in which we, the body of Christ, can point out:
1. the truths that they do have in Islam; and
2. the rest in Islam which do not resonate with those truths nor with reason.
We want to avoid a clash, where one has to absolutely lose and the other has to absolutely win."
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Jeff, I suppose the best way I can say this is...you need to read the quran yourself and first find what you feel are the "truths" within Islam. I don't know how many conversations you have had with muslims about Jesus and the good news, but I have found that of all the mindsets, the muslim is the hardest. I have never said it was impossible, just one of the thickest for reason. I think anyone that has tried has had great sympathy for the Pope's situation via his speech, because the Pope was spot on about trying to lay it on the table for all to see. In fact, most of the muslims in the west, those that actually do start to desire to open their ears and eyes are those that use athiesm as a stepping stone. Its almost as if they have to detox their spirit into 'a nothingness' to shake off all the lies they have been force fed before they can even accept anything else. Of course, when one has lived in fear of being disowned or socially exempted from their family matched with the looming silent code of a death sentence due to apostacy, it's probably the toughest task they will ever take on, so it's as if part of the mind, that which does reason has been shut down. Satan has surely shut their spirit into darkness from the truth and with the muslim's culture it is an extreme struggle to open that up for love to flow within. IMHO, the Holy Spirit, like you stated is the power that can blow down that brick wall! Our example of Christ within us is probably the best we can do in many of the interactions that comes about. But one cannot be dishonest when one is trying for an approach or new way to open a dialogue with them. The sword of the Spirit is the word of God and we cannot lie to them or ourselves when it comes to the truth. You say that we are to avoid a clash, but the reality is that the clash is already present. Many muslim's hearts and minds are already on the front line of the holy war battle field even if we in the west want to live in denial that it's taking place. Jeff, you go on to say, "that Moslems are being confronted with the intractability of their own extremists who are not interested in dialogue at all. Perhaps such occasions will draw the moderates among them into dialogue." and I tell you that Islam has been confronted in the past and when it has, it resorted to conquering and snuffing out what they deem Allah's enemies. They truly believe in their hearts that they are doing their maker's work and t
They truly believe in their hearts that they are doing their maker's work and thus it's a duty which Allah has commanded upon them.
But as Christians we are to expect this. John 16:2 is a reminder. What I am trying to explain is that Chrsitians should never fall to deception or respect deception in order to avoid the conflict of the truth. When we are given the chance, we should always share the truth of the Gospel and let the Spirit work from there, because Psalm 127:1 teaches us that despite all the frustrations, "Unless the LORD builds the house, its builders labor in vain.Unless the LORD watches over the city,the watchmen stand guard in vain." Therefore we must trust in God and as hard as it is to accept, perhaps sometimes it takes us down the path of conflict and clash through being true to the simple message. Because that is what Muslims need...is the simplicity of the Good News! We know that God doesn't want anyone to perish but to repent and have a change of heart. The burden is light and it's we humans that have made it all so complicated. We as Christians have to stand on God's word and his message. The message stands on it's own because it is full of promise and hope. This is something that the muslim word is void of! There is no peace or love foundation built on by perversions, but if we stay true to the message of the gospel, we can share what has changed our lives and brought us much joy. Will it be easy? No, but God has armed us with the ultimate weapon and that is the truth of His Word! So when we do get a chance, we must show muslims the Jesus of the Gospels and His work on the Cross, because that is the good news! This is the gap that must be filled because their version of Jesus is totally perverted and distorted and is missing truth! We can use Paul as a good example of this when he talked about the "unknown god" and realise that we can only argue on the differences by the scriptures. We don't have to accept another gospel or another christ to witness to anyone, what we must do is stay true to the truth which is given to us, and it may be painful for all, but we must stand firm on that if we want to be honest. We must trust in His word and not falter to our own if we really want to share with muslims and then let the truth work inside their hearts. Hebrews 4:12 teaches us For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
Truth is not always pleaant, but we must stand on the truth and not feel we have to accept another gospel or entertain another christ to share the good news of Jesus Christ!
I think this was the right thing to do. The Pope is a peacemaker. Without the annotation, this text could be used by unscrupulous parties to incite violence at any time. With the annotation, there is no further legitimate excuse for violence. Only time will tell but I think the long term results of the lecture will be very good, so this conciliatory gesture is not misplaced.
Here is another example of the violence that muslims fear when they want to become a Christian...
"A Muslim source told the Bulletin: "From what we understand the daughter decided to tell her father of her radical plan to convert to Christianity which, in the eyes of most Muslims, is totally unacceptable and to be honest, sadly, many would react as he has done." "It is the Islamic way that if a son or daughter does or plans to do something that is unacceptable or wrong for a Muslim then it is the mother who is automatically at fault and will bear the brunt of the blame."What many muslims are up against
The Koran is neither "holy" nor is Islam,that man-invented cult,a "great religion." Sorry.
I agree Tony, because when we speak about truth, we have to look at the source of that truth and when it comes to Islam it's all wrapped up in one man, Mohammed, and if we even go further on that one, we have to admit that we are warned about such in Galatians 1:6-9 because that is what Mohammed claimed was that an angel Gabriel came down and gave him the direct word of Allah!
This is why Islam can't handle the truth because it knows that if has light shine on it, that it will be exposed for the fraud it is! That is why it entices it's followers to not question it! It can't hold up to the scrutiny!
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