AmericanPapist Comments
I'm an uncharitable individual who should practice more control when commenting.
Edited By Siteowner
Seriously--I think there are more important things to lament in the world...
No, I think this is important, because it is just the tip of the iceburg. Not greeting the Pope when he arrives and failing to acknowledge that he is coming at the invitation of a local religious leader is significant. I'm not sorry for believing that the Pope should be treated differently than heads of state, even if he is one.
... especially when this visit is under close international scrutiny. The Turkish leaders have a clear opportunity of demonstrating their respect of other religions and religious leaders. Sadly, they apparently aren't choosing to do so here.
I think this coming event also has to do with Turkey's bid to become a part of the European Union. Turkey would like to be a part of it, but many countries in Europe are uneasy about it because Turkey is not considered "European" nor is the major religion Christianity. Pope Benedict XVI (before his election) was vocally against Turkey becoming a part of the EU.
I think I see both sides on this one. Though I do not see what is being served by this trip in the first place. Of course, I'm not pope.
Well, I think the Holy Father just wants to visit his Brother in Christ, the Patriarch of Constantinoples, at his Diocese's Patron's feast, just as the Patriarch himself did several times going to Rome on July 29th. If anything, it could at least increase the level of understanding and friendship between the two church leaders.
As to the turkish polititians not receiving the Pope in an orderly manner - shame on them, not on the Holy Father. The world will know how to understand this...
Are they even going to allow Masses to be celebrated? I would almost expect they wouldn't at this point.
Whether it represents the whole of Islam or not, many members of Islam are not doing very well in the reason department.
To hit my point again and maybe a little clearer: Turkey has a chance with this visit to show the world how it plays ball. If anything they should be erring on the side of courtesy. I think it's pretty clear they aren't - which bodes poorly for their country and Christian/Muslim relations in general. That's why I'm watching the story particularly carefully.
Also, this is not "just" a visit. A Pope can't "just" visit somewhere. Especially not a muslim country. You can bet that the international community is watching how both sides conduct themselves.
Ah, how childish. Turkey is throwing a tantrum.
Well, I agree with you that it seems Turkey is snubbing the Holy Father. At the same time, how many times was Christ snubbed? And what did He do in response? (This thought is accompanied by the not-so-virtuous, "Oh, just screw Turkey and who cares what they think!" lol)
OK, my first thought from the intial commentator was, "Duran Duran"!
There is a reason that the Pope is the Pope and I am not. Let's ignore the fact he's ordained and I'm not. He's also a bit more Christian than I.
The victory is already won!
How much the Vatican will take? All of it. Turning the other cheek and taking the opportunity to visit and minister to the Christians in that land.
I'm not thrilled at their snubbing, either, but I honestly am confused about the last portion of your post. I mean, Jesus wasn't welcomed everywhere He went, either, and neither were the Apostles or any of the first several hundred years' worth of missionaries. But they went anyway and ministered to the Christians and converted everyone they could. And our Holy Father is a worker of the vineyard, too. He said so, remember?
Christ didn't turn the cheek to the money lenders in the temple. Christ didn't take any of the abuses of the scribes and pharisees. He upraided them constantly and called them to repentance (so we can denounce evil when and where we see it). The disciples out of weakness did not support Jesus in his hour of need - that doesn't mean they shouldn't have actually helped.
I beleive that we should support the Christians in Turkey and in other Muslim countries - for it is their hour of need - by making it known to the Turkish government that we do not approve of their actions, either when they practice religious discrimination (which Pope Benedict himself has called out), or when they descriminate against the head of a religion - the Pope himself (and if he is too humble to call them out that doesn't mean we cant).
What is so difficult about any of that? I'm passionate about defending my faith and about defending my Pope. Sometimes we can turn the cheek by standing with the Pope and receiving some of the blows that are directed at him...
Isn't the government of Turkey one of the most secular in the Muslim world? It's government is secular.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Isl...Islam_in_Turkey
So maybe the Pope can combat at the same time radical Islam, and radical secularism?
This all of course makes sense with his Regensburg address, in which he clarified that Faith and Reason must go hand-in-hand. Faith without Reason leads to radicalism and violence, while Reason without Faith leads to atheistic secularism. Turkey seems the best chance to "kill two birds with one stone".
By the way, I totally stand by the Pope.
I know it might be upsetting, but the more important thing is the visit to the Patriarch. I would be horrified if the Vatican did anything that would cause this trip to be canceled. We can't give them a reason to cancel the trip, we must show extreme restraint and make sure that the mission of the Church to its brethren is carried out.
Turkey is, indeed, a secular state. From its foundation out of the ruins of the Ottoman Empire, Turkey had identified itself as a secular state, where Islamic tradition is respected but does not govern. I certainly hope the visit of the Pope does not mitigate the commitment of Turkey to secularism. That commitment, bolstered by the Turkish armed forces, is the only thing keeping Turkey from becoming and Islamic Republic.
Due to its commitment to secularism, it is entirely appropriate for the Turkish state to welcome the Pope as a head of state. It will only protect Christians more.
Papa Beni will be present for those who will get encouragement from his visit.
I don't believe it's necessarily [sic?] important that the Turkish government make a big fanfare when the pope arrives in Turkey [being a predominately Muslim nation]. He will meet with government leaders later as head of state.
However, the president of Turkey not being present to at least say "hello" to a fellow head of state is bothersome. Even the Mexican president and his wife greeted JPTG at the airport and quickly split, when he visisted Mexico the first time. This all in keeping with not being too lauditory of a religous leader.
Anyway, Papa Beni is pleasing to a Higher Authority.
Okay, then, perhaps we shouldn't be comparing the Holy Father to Christ's actions. How about Peter?
And, who's to say that he doesn't speak up for the Christians who are being targeted while he's there?
I agree with MVH that it would be preferable to meet the pope at the airport, as a courtesy to a head of state, but when the pope came to America (John Paul II, I mean), did our president go to the airport to meet and greet him? (Seriously, I am asking. I don't recall.)
What the government of Turkey does is irrelevant. They already look foolish and juvenile. As long as the Pope isn't harmed, that's all I care about. I also care about the Pope getting the opportunity to go on his mission to Patriarch Bartholomew. That's the higher priority.
Father George Rutler wrote a short commentary related to this subject. For anyone interested I think it bears reading.
http://www.oursaviournyc.org/
gwr...rs_corner.shtml
Pax.
I'm with Ed Peters on this one - what real purpose does this visit serve other than exposing our beloved Holy Father to mortal danger? Benedict could just as easily show his respect and solicitude for Orthodox Christians and Eastern Rite Catholics living in Turkey by inviting the Patriarch to the Vatican or Castel Gandolfo for a visit. Tom
Nice to see you, TJM. :-)
My automatic feeling is with you and Ed, as I don't want to see anything happen to the Holy Father. But for what it's worth, the Christians in Muslim lands are exposed to mortal danger day in and day out. I think it's right for the Holy Father to make the trip, especially since the Church maintains the primacy of Peter. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the idea is that the Pope is indeed the spiritual leader of all Christians, whether or not they recognize him, right? Because he is the head of the Universal Church, and all other "churches" are in schism? So if he is the spiritual leader of Christ's church on earth, it would seem to me to be inappropriate to say "I'm not going to go to your country because I might meet the same fate that you could."
My guess is that he feels it is important to make the trip as scheduled. Perhaps it will serve as a reminder to the world that there ARE Christians in Turkey and other Muslim lands, and that they do not enjoy anywhere near the freedoms that Muslims enjoy in the West. Perhaps it will have some other positive effect. I don't know...we should definitely say a few extra prayers for him, though.
All just my opinion. :-)
"Benedict could just as easily show his respect and solicitude for Orthodox Christians and Eastern Rite Catholics living in Turkey by inviting the Patriarch to the Vatican or Castel Gandolfo for a visit."
But it would not be the same, would it? Inviting the Patriarch to Rome (which both the previous and the current pope did) without a return visit would say "You can make a 1000 km travel and visit me, but I am much too important to do the same." And this is exactly the message the Holy Father does NOT want to deliver. It is an act of courtesy to visit those that have visited you.
The Holy Father treats the Patriarch of Constantinoples as head of a separate, but sister church. Byzance was never a daughter of Rome (churchwise speaking), and her Patriarch can't be treated just like any bishop being cited to an ad limina visit.
I am very happy the Holy Father is visiting Byzance, I trust the Holy Trinity to help Benedict, and should the unspeakable happen - well, what's so bad about another martyr pope?
(Not to be misunderstood, I certainly do not wish the Holy Father to die. I just think, while death is not a good thing, life eternal is quite worth dying.)
Accepting the invitation as merely a "head of state" can serve as a real act of Grace. If our faith is real,then it is never separate from who we are. Pope Benedict XVI therefore presents Christ to the world, to Turkey, whether they recognize him as a religious leader or not.
A mere "head of state"?
You mean Turkey recognizes the Pope as the Prime Minister of the Kingdom of David prophesied in the OT and established as the earthly branch of the Kingdom of Heaven by our Lord?
That is fine with me.
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