AmericanPapist Comments
This is a very good sign. For all the efforts to reunite "high" Protestants and Catholics it is easy to over look how very similar Catholics and Orthodox are.
This is very well done, I am very excited about this trip.
"His all Holiness"?
Aside from the fact that the sign refers to "His All Holiness" in the case of Bartholomew and "His Holiness" in the case of Benedict and uses a larger font size and picture for Bartholomew than Benedict, it does look snazzy.
Nutcrazical, you shouldn't be surprised that Byzantine titles tend to be (in our modern and Western eyes) a bit inflated. Another reason of this is the Greek language: panagiotatos (the term awkwardly translated as "His All Holiness") simply sounds better than anything else, and it doesn't seem so exaggerated once placed within the hierarchy that regulates the titles for the rest of the clergy (all equally superlative). We shouldn't let ourselves get stuck in such trivial matters, that has been precisely the mistake of the past. As someone who attended the Joint International Comission between the Catholics and the Orthodox in Belgrade this September, I can assure you that what is most important lies in the future. May this trip of the Holy Father bring this future a little closer.
uh, he still calls himself "ecumenical" patriarch ?
Pope St. Gregory the Great in the 6th century has reprimanded the bishop of Constantinople for assuming this title:
“For as to what they say about the Church of Constantinople, who can doubt that it is subject to the Apostolic See, as both the most pious lord the emperor and our brother the bishop of that city continually acknowledge? Yet, if this or any other Church has anything that is good, I am prepared in what is good to imitate even my inferiors, while prohibiting them from things unlawful.” (Epistle XII, To John, Bishop of Syracuse http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/...213/
2130018.htm or http://www.newadvent.org/fathers...s/
360209012.htm (Book IX, Letter 12))
“For, as to his saying that he is subject to the Apostolic See… I know not what bishop is not subject to it [the Apostolic See].” (Book IX, Letter 59
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers...s/
360209059.htm or http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/...213/
2130034.htm )
And what about Caesaropapism?
I think we overshadow the good news and expectations of the Holy Father's trip with such "battles against shadows". The title "ecumenical" never implied any claims of juristiction or authority--it simply suggests that the bishop who beared that title had his see in the capital of the "oecumene". It can be misunderstood only if read within the context of a centralized ecclesiology (and of course that wasn't the case with the Orthodox East).
And who would be the Caesar in this case, Andrew?
Panteleimon, I don't really know who would be Caesar. But Roman Catholics, although they believe in a separation of Church and State, don't believe that the government (of whatever country or empire) should have higher Authority than the Church.
Andrew, nor do the Orthodox. The Church, both Eastern and Western, celebrates a cloud of martyrs who defended her autonomy from the secular powers (cf. St. Maximus the Confessor, for example). In fact, this is the sole purpose of the Pope's visit to Constantinople, to defend the Church's prerogative to self-governance even against those who want to control her in the name of secularism.
Okay that's good Pantelimon. I have a few questions though. In the Orthodox Church, who can summon an Ecumenical Council? Of course, in the Catholic Church, the Pope starts a council. Who has the Authority in the Orthodox Church to summon and preside over an Ecumenical Council, and would it include each and every branch of Orthodoxy? Also, I think it's possible for there to be a Council in the future with both Catholics and Orthodox. What say you?
For the Orthodox tradition (of the first millennium) only the Pope can summon an Ecumenical Council with the consent of the other four Patriarchates. After the Schism, no Ecumenical Council has been summoned in the Orthodox World or could be summoned for that matter (that is one of the many consequences of our separation from Rome, a matter that we can't take lightly or pretend that doesn't hurt our ecclesiology.
General Councils (Pan-Orthodox) have been called by the See that comes second after Rome in the ecclesiological ordo (i.e., Constantinople, for being "New Rome").
A common council? For us the prerequisite of an ecumenical council is precisely to be "common". That's our dream. That's why Bartholomew has been visiting Rome for so many years, that's why BXVI visits Constantinople at the end of the month in spite of all the problems with Turkey.
Well I'd have to say that his visit is exciting, as St. Andrew the Apostle is my patron.
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