AmericanPapist Comments
The way it's advertised, it appears that you get paid to sell a part of your body, which I thought -- at least in other circumstances -- was illegal. For instance, you can't sell a kidney. You can only donate it. I wonder, then, why you can sell an egg.
On the other hand, you can sell your HAIR.... Maybe an egg is considered like your hair because you have so many of them.
Morality aside, it is supposedly very painful and has long reaching ramifications for the woman's health and fertility.
Scary stuff... Brave New World here we come?
The unfortunate downside to the massive power of the internet, it's there for good and evil alike.
Baron, any sources for that? I've heard the same but have not researched it independently.
AmP (and your readers), I have an honest question related to this issue. I have had some discussions with Catholics who are anti-abortion, but also pro-fertility treatment, some only to the extent of taking drugs, and others to the extent of "anything I have to do to get pregnant I'll do." The question that I always seem to be unable to get a reasonable answer to is this: if it is God's will when a woman becomes pregnant, even when she does not wish to, then why is it not God's will for a woman to be unable to get pregnant, even when she wants to? I tried for many years to get pregnant (I have been married for 18 years), and many of my well-meaning Catholic friends, both men and women, recommended fertility treatments of one kind or another. Are there some fertility treatments that are approved by the Church and I am just being stubborn/stupid in not pursuing them?
Hi ndenvirochick,
You can trust these people:
http://www.popepaulvi.com/
They are Catholic and have amazing success rates (through NaPro).
I was disgusted when I saw a similar ad in my (non-Catholic) university's daily newspaper. I briefly thought about writing in to protest it, but I'm fairly sure it would be a wasted effort.
I've seen these ads in NY subway cars for the last couple months. Pretty, happy, young women. I am beginning to lose hope that things can possibly get better.
AmP,
Thanks for the response. You answered my second question, which I appreciate very much, but I am still stuck on my first question.
When you are married as long as I have been, the inevitable questions pop up in conversation: Do you have any children? (No.) Do you want children? (Yes.) And then either they ask how I am trying to fix the problem, or offer suggestions to fix the problem.
I find that there is a double standard among most of my Catholic friends - that it is not okay to "play God" to take a life, but that it is okay to "play God" when it comes to making a life, i.e. medical intervention to improve fertility. While the Institute that you recommend has Catholic-based restrictions on the extent to which they will pursue medical intervention, the message seems to be that one should pursue all options that are moral to their fullest extent.
The Bible tells us "be fruitful and multiply." (Gen 1:28) And the Catholic Catechism has this to say about the subject: "But the respective 'perfections' of man and woman reflect something of the infinite perfection of God: those of a mother and those of a father and husband." (370) (I hope I am citing that properly.)
I can see how these messages - those of the Church as well as those of friends and relatives - can lead some women to seek more and more desperate measures to fulfill what they see as their destiny or their duty to become a mother. I recognize that the Church condemns going to extreme measures such as the egg donation and in vitro fertilization discussed in this posting. But I think that there is a bit of a mixed message there from the Church with regards to the worth of a married woman based on her ability to become a mother.
So, my question still remains, from both a practical and theological standpoint - is it possible for it to be God's will for a married woman not to successfully bear children?
Ndenvirochick,
Because many embryos are usually destroyed or have the possibility to be destroyed during the process of in-vitro, the Church's stance is that the end does not justify the means.
Each human embryo (even a freshly fertilized egg) is a real human person by the standard of objective biology and Church teaching. However the secular world has done a good job making us lose sight of that fact. So, as grisly as my following example is going to be, I think it is probably the best way to illustrate what I mean this way.
Let's say my wife and I have having fertility issues and we really want to have children. We've tried every treatment and are left with the choice of not having children or "Enveetro". My wife and I travel to the Enveetro clinic for treatment. They bring out six children and line them up against the wall, then tell my wife and I that I can take one of them home if we both shoot the other five to death. So, we shoot five of the children to death and are granted a child of our very own. Did the end justify the means? In biology there is no difference between the fertilized egg, the embryo, the fetus, or the newborn aside from stages of development. They are all living human organisms, and a living human organism is a human person. Likewise, the Church makes no distinction between a fertilized egg and a newborn. That human being has a body and soul. So, in-vitro is no different, in that sense, than the grisly example I provided.
I am in no way condemning those who have sought in-vitro fertilization. I have no idea how horrible the struggles of infertility are. My example fits best using my wife and I because both of us are fully aware of the Church's teaching on in-vitro.
Please, someone correct me or feel free to buffer what I said if need be.
So, my question still remains, from both a practical and theological standpoint - is it possible for it to be God's will for a married woman not to successfully bear children?
My comment above doesn't address this question. I was trying to address the "mixed message" part. I don't think I can coherently answer this question, nor am I a theologian. I can only say that what appear to us as defects or curses are actually outlets of more abundant grace. If you are coming to the conclusion that the Scriptures are sending a mixed message, there is always the Book of Job. It would be difficult to find anyone else in the Scriptures who was as afflicted, seemingly unfairly, than him.
AmP, can you provide links to some Church documents directly related to this topic? I hate to cop out, but I'm supposed to be working.
ndenvirochick,
I am not a parent yet, but my husband and I hope to be someday. We have discussed what we plan to do if it we have trouble achieving that on our own. One option is NFP and NaPro technology (and prayer too!). If all else fails then we have also considered the option of adoption or foster care. That will likely be a long way off since we are still 'young', but it is an option nonetheless.
We can't imagine not being parents. However, we may be called to serve God in other ways. I taught with a couple who were never able to have children but dedicated their lives to teaching Catechism in their parish and Catholic Schools. Maybe someday I will find out that is my calling too! But in the meantime, I'm open to motherhood (scary at times though that seems).
I don't know if it is possible for it to be God's will for a married woman to not successfully bear children. Maybe God calls some couples to be fruitful in other ways? The Pro-Life movement? Adoption? Foster care? Catholic Education?
I am no theologian, so maybe one can help correct me?
Might I also add, that I do currently teach in a Catholic school and we have many students who are from lower income families, broken homes, etc. Some of the teachers at our school are better parents to these students than their own parents (and certainly are better role models in some cases). While teaching isn't for everyone (trust me, it isn't!) being a role model for kids who need it can be very rewarding. And perhaps fruitful?
One last thing. (And then I better be productive).
A friend of the family has been happily married for over 15 years and has no children of her own. She runs a daycare/preschool. When asked how many children she has, she always replies, "34!" They never bother to ask her again... :) I always found that funny.
Joseph, in vitro as a fertility treatment option is not where the mixed message lies - that has never even been a consideration of ours, and is clearly condemned by the Catholic Church. The mixed message (for me, anyway) lies in two places - one, in a Biblical and Church history that holds up motherhood as the "perfection" to which all women should strive (but what if you strive and don't succeed?), and second, in the well-meaning Catholics that I meet who think that I should jump on the Clomid (fertility drug) bandwagon immediately (or something more drastic) - and many who have done so themselves. I know that the Catholic Church's line is somewhere between "in vitro = bad" and "be fruitful and multiply," but it gets a little hazy for me after that.
NB - I know that conversation well about other options such as adoption, and have also had that conversation with our pastor. We have also tried "methods" beyond just blind luck and trial and error to conceive a biologically related baby. That includes prayer (and lots of it!). Obviously, there will come a time when my body will not allow for a baby to be conceived (thank God I married young!), but my own personal struggle, I guess, is in trying to figure out - is there a time when it is okay to just "concede" that perhaps this is a futile endeavor, and stop trying so hard? Or are we called to "put the pedal to the metal" until the race is officially over? And that is where Catholic teaching becomes confusing to me.
Ironically, I AM a teacher. I have also taught CCD classes in the past, though am not currently doing so. So I understand about other gifts and such, but... well, to be honest, there is a real... longing to be a mother, and I don't know if it's selfishness or something else.
Which came first: the human or the egg?
Unfortunately, one has to recognize that such an ad is harmful before one can take the following action:
See the the two grey 'buttons', a thumb down and a thumb up? They're allowing you to 'vote' or give feedback on this ad. I do this a lot on FB now. If I see an objectionable ad, I click the thumbs down button. A pop-up window appears that asks for my reason and poof, the ad disappears. Hopefully, if enough people give a thumbs down, the ad will go away...
ndenvirochick,
Medical intervention is not "playing God." The Catholic church is not against an infertile person becoming fertile. It's against doing so in an immoral way (such as in vitro fertilization.) I don't know all the options that the Church accepts, but Natural Family Planning is something the Catholic Church promotes and is a way that many people are able to achieve pregnancy. If you would like to actively try to become pregnant (as opposed to waiting and seeing what may happen), I think you should consult with a priest and with a doctor who respects Catholic teaching.
Lastly, your Catholic friends do not necessarily have all the answers, although their intentions may very well be good. This is something you should consult with a priest about.
ACR,
I agree that medical intervention is not inherently "playing God," else going to the doctor would be a bad thing. But I have been confronted with many "Catholics" who advocate for a "do anything to get pregnant" strategy at the same time that they object to abortion - a contradiction of philosophy (if not theology), as far as I can see.
Also, I haven't taken a wait-and-see approach; I have been actively trying to get pregnant (though did not think it necessary to share details), and with every continued failure, I am confronted with people who say "try harder, go farther, do more." That includes Catholics and non-Catholics alike. The message seems to be that this is something that I should be pursuing until I have exhausted every possible (moral) option that exists. And I am simply wondering why all of the near-fanaticism about this; is it NOT a possibility that maybe God's plan is for us NOT to have children?
I have talked to my pastor, both of them actually - one who is now at another parish, and my current one. The previous pastor... well, for a little background, let's just say that trying "actively" for 7 years to get pregnant takes a toll on your married relationship. My previous pastor counseled me to consider divorce as a result of this marital strain. Really. I'm not kidding. I decided not to seek further counsel from him. My current pastor... at first, he counseled me that "God's plans are not our plans," which seems like a cop out statement; it can mean whatever I want it to mean. I could not get further clarification from him. Now that we are in our 4th year with this pastor, his counsel is to begin adoption proceedings, as he knows many people who have successfully gotten pregnant this way (seriously, I couldn't make this stuff up on my own).
My doctor (who is affiliated with a Catholic hospital) advocates using pharmaceutical aid to get pregnant; I am unclear if this is considered okay by the Catholic Church. Finding an answer to that question has been frustratingly difficult, but it is something that I am uncomfortable with even if the Church gives the thumbs-up.
Which leads me to the possibility that I find myself confronted with - that maybe this just isn't meant to be, and after how many years of continued failure should you just accept the possibility that the answer to the prayer of becoming pregnant is NO?
I don't know the answer to that. I don't know if anyone really does. It would be nice if that was spelled out for us though, wouldn't it? I know I certainly would like that.
I want to say part of the whole adoption causes pregnancy idea (which I have heard about too) is that the stresses of trying to get pregnant are off. And stress can do a number on our bodies. Which I suppose is why so many people who weren't 'trying' to get pregnant do, and many people who are 'trying' don't.
And if you find an answer to your underlying question, please share!! :)
ndenvirochick:
God bless you. I don't have any answers for you, but I pray for you.
Personally, I really do think that God's will for us is mysterious and perhaps your struggle will give you the proper insight to help someone else in the future. Perhaps God is preparing a child to be adopted into your family. Perhaps I have no idea what I am talking about. I take that back. I definitely have no idea what I am talking about.
But, I pray that God grants you peace through this difficult struggle and I pray that the rest of his plans become apparent to you and your husband. God bless you!
P.S. Thanks for the discourse on evolutionary theory! That helped me a lot.
ndenvirochick:
Please don't misunderstand me--I wasn't trying to urge you to take extra steps towards becoming fertile but to give you an idea of one that you may be comfortable with IF it is something you would like to do. If you are open to becoming pregnant in your marriage, that is all that is necessary. If you would like to take additional measures that you are comfortable with and that are in line with the catholic church, then that is up to you. I definitely don't want you to think I am judging you (or anyone else) for taking or not taking extra measures towards having children. That is entirely up to you and is definitely not something you should feel pressured to do. I'm sure God has many ways to use you and your husband outside of having children if that is his plan.
Also, it is very unfortunate to hear the counsel you heard from the priest you worked with. That is really sad.
Best to you,
ACR
I've got that one beat.
http://i99.photobucket.com/album...madawg/
fbad.jpg
Commenting by HaloScan
