AmericanPapist Comments
There seems to be something about kids who vocalize the desire to be saints.
St. Dominic Savio comes to mind, and now this little girl.
It's an amazing story - one that makes us reflect on the many complaints we have. Looking at the girl's writing at such a young age, she possessed a level of virtue far beyond what many adults attain.
When dealing with children, it can be difficult to distinguish the childish from the child-like. A child who is child-like but not childish can be unnerving.
Flannery O'Connor was asked by some Dominican nuns to write a book about a saintly orphan they had raised who died young. Flannery managed to get out of writing the book, but she did write an introduction to the book by the nuns, A Memoir of Mary Ann. I believe the introduction is contained in the collection of O'Connor's non-fiction writings (Mystery and Manners). It is well worth reading.
I'm going to need A LOT of convincing here. When, oh when, are people going to remember that canonization is NOT about who is in Heaven, but rather, about who is a model for widespread, nay universally applicable, imitation?
With all due regard for Matthew 19 (seriously), how does a six year old provide a realistic pattern for others (well, others older than 6, or maybe 8) to imitate?
When I read about the little girl asking God for her leg back, all I could think of what my black kitten Tippety, who had her tail run over by a truck. I was so convinced it would grow back... it didn't.
"With all due regard for Matthew 19 (seriously), how does a six year old provide a realistic pattern for others (well, others older than 6, or maybe 8) to imitate?"
I think you just answered your own question.
I am fond of Blesseds Jacinta and Francisco Marto.
There is much worthy of imitation in the child saints. Whoever you are. However old you are.
No, Thomas, I didn't.
Upon reading this story, I even wondered, "are they her own words, or are these ideas put into her head by adults?" I think it is a good reminder not to dismiss the potential of little children.
What is wrong with 6 or 8 year olds having the example of a saintly peer to set them on the right path early on? And why couldn't the rest of us learn from a little girl, and imitate her, when she tells the Lord she desires "to suffer a lot to redeem also the sins of men, especially the very bad ones." Why couldn't we follow her example of deep love of the Eucharist?
Giving regard to Matthew 19 before you dismiss its relevance is a hollow rhetorical ploy. Why not instead pray about it in relation to this future saint's life?
Somehow I think I'll trust in those who have meticulously investigated this little girl's life over those who are uninvolved and shoot off quickie expressions of doubt on a blog. I think they're aware what the purpose of canonization is.
Sorry to come off as harsh, but I'm not sure why anyone here would see himself as a suitable judge of this girl's cause. Next I suppose we'll be criticizing the Beatification of Blesseds Francisco and Jacinta Marto.
You don't come across as harsh, Thomas, just rather uniformed as to the issues. Take it from someone who has worked on several cases over the years. Or don't, if you don't want to. Either way, Merry Christmas.
Ed:
I've just had a look at your website, you're obviously a canon law bigwig. Rather than tell people they are "uninformed", please inform us.
Since you have worked on cases before, you can offer us some deeper insight into the issue of a small child being beatified. How should we take into account Matt. 19 then? How should we look at child saints?
My two cents:
Is it possible that the little girl's canonization could provide an example, not only to children (who need good examples, after all) but also to parents of children with diseases or disabilities? If, as I imagine it is, the hardest thing in the world is watching your own child die, then could it not be valuable to have a 20th-century example of child-like resignation to the will of God? Or am I stretching, here?
*Shrugs*
Tess, there's another issue here, namely, the rigidity with which some people assert what are, in fact, quite wrong facts and opinions in comboxes. Any one who knows me knows I have no problem with differences of informed opinions, but not differences which are tantamount to facts. That's what I react to. And while I don't care for the term "bigwig", I am a professional in my field, as is obvious to anyone who does as you did, and click on my non-hidden personal links. So why don't certain epople stop and say, "Gee, maybe this guy DOES know more than me on something, maybe I'd better think about my position, rather than immediately typing as fast as my fingers can fly." Moreover, I have other things to do on my break than explain complex matetrs to folks whose initial posts are so, as I said before, aggressive.
But, since it's Christmas, I'll suggest this. Any one who can correctly explain the simple but fundamental difference between beatification and canonization (info easily available on the web, so you don't even need a book, perish the thought!) should then look at the repeated confusion of those two concepts in this thread (just for starters), and share my frustration at trying to sort out on Christmas Eve.
Easy now, Kate B. and Tess. Don't question the canon lawyers. After all, Christ did call them the Rock on which he built His Church. Oh no, wait. That was Peter. And Peter has approved her heroic virtues and hopes for her canonization. He must be so uninformed.
And Ed, another hollow ploy. Whether or not you've worked on causes before is irrelevant. You have nothing to do with this one. I expect less sloppiness in argumentation from a canon lawyer.
Whatever, folks. Cheery bye.
"I'm going to need A LOT of convincing here. When, oh when, are people going to remember that canonization is NOT about who is in Heaven, but rather, about who is a model for widespread, nay universally applicable, imitation?"
Just a reminder that this is how you started the conversation. Whether deliberately or not (presumably deliberately since you are so much more measured than we simpletons) you presume to remind the postulators of her cause, the prelates who investigated her life, and the Pope who supports it what beatification and canonization are for, and that they need to convince you of it.
But I'm the one who's "aggresive," so you won't deign to have a conversation with me.
Well, I'll leave you with an answer to your original protest from someone else then:
"For all of you can consider her your friend, a model to inspire you. Her existence, so simple and, at the same time, so important, demonstrates that holiness is for every age; for little children and young people, for adults and for the elderly. Every season of our existence can be good for us to decide seriously to love Jesus and to follow Him faithfully. In a few years, Nennolina reached the summit of Christian perfection that we are, all of us, called to ascend, she ran quickly the 'highway' that leads to Jesus. And so, as you yourselves recalled, Jesus is the true 'way' who leads us to the Father and to our permanent home, which is Paradise. You know that Antonia now lives in God, and from heaven, she is close to you; you sense that she is present with you, in your groups. Learn to know her and follow her examples."
Now, I know the Holy Father isn't a canon lawyer, but I hope you'll heed his words anyway.
Thomas--
Please don't speak for me, or use me as a stick to beat anyone with. Thanks.
Happily, I didn't speak for you, so you have nothing to worry about.
Ed:
I've had a read of the Catholic Encyclopedia -
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/...then/
02597b.htm
The difference between canonization and beatification is this:
"The difference between canonization and beatification lies in the presence or absence of two elements which are found united in canonization and either separate or entirely absent from beatification, though generally only one is lacking. These elements are:
* the precepts regarding public worship, and
* its extention to the whole Church."
A precept imposes an obligation, yes?
From the Holy Father's words, it seems hopeful that Antonietta Meo will be BEATIFIED, he didn't mention canonization. However you think it would be unlikely that she will be canonized, given that canonization then demands a universal veneration of the person. Am I right? Beatification only _allows_ veneration, and then perhaps not universally.
I'm unsure if I have all this right and I'm quite happy to listen to your expertise (I shall now refrain from the "bigwig" description :).
And merry Christmas to you too.
And hey Thomas... Chill out a bit. If you can dial back the rhetoric we might learn something here. I know I already have, I just thought beatification was the precursor to canonization. Maybe you know enough to take on Dr Peters in a comment slagfest, but I don't and I want to know why he thinks it is unlikely that this girl will be canonized.
What a thoughtful post, Tess. Every time I swear off trying to have an intelligent discussion in a combox, someone like you seems willing to learn instead of pontificate (npi).
You have found one of the key points that most folks missed above (including the ambiguous CNA story) namely, that canonization must offer not a SPECIFICALLY APPEALING person, but a UNIVERSALLY IMITATABLE model. Folks who ask, e.g., "why shouldn't 6 years olds have a role model?" don't understand that they have have described the case for beatification, not canonization. Anyway, because CNA said "sainthood", I reacted to that, as you saw, for it was an opportunity to point out to others how common is the misunderstanding in this area.
JP2 canonized hundreds of people mostly priests & religious. B16 made it clear, however, you might recall, at the very outset of his reign, that the canonization parade was going to slow way down, and that the much more appropriate status of beatification would be emphasized. Some people, here and elsewhere, might not have gotten that message. Oh well, so what else is new?
There's something else here (well, there are several other things else here, but one has only so much time). How can I put this?...Any one who is a parent raising kids in Catholic way knows that children are sometimes stunning in their understanding of God, the Faith, the Church, and so on. It is therefor no disparagement of one's child's dramatic expression of love for God to say that many other children have made just as remarkable statements (even though it SOUNDS like a disparagment to say it.) But the simple fact is, many have done so. Indeed, under equally terrible conditions, the kind that might drive you and me to, well, you know.
I saw the former many times, and that latter, up close, from a 4 year old who died of brain cancer ten years ago, a girl whose piety and understanding far exceeded her years and moved us all to wonder for God. No one, me included, has the slightest doubt but that she is in Heaven, praying for us, but she's from a land far away from Rome, and so no one who is in a position to "lobby" for such things is calling for her canonization. But I risk leaving the wrong message here, so enough on that.
Finally, I did not say it unlikely that Rome would canonize the Italian girl; only, I expressed doubts that, based on info put out so far, she "deserves" such status, as distinguished from Venerable, or even Blessed. You saw how some folks reacted even to that. Of course, like most Americans interested in the area, I read many Roman documents, assume they mean what they say, and then occasionally scratch my head that some Vatican official apparently doesn't think they mean what they clearly said. So, who knows what will happen in this case.
As you seem, Tess, the kind who might take the time to look some things up, I'll paste here some directions I worked up for some other applications for further reading that elabora
Odd, the suggested reading list was cut off. Here it is, in case you're interested:
In contrast to the Pio-Benedictine Code which treated beatification and canonization procedures extensively (see 1917 CIC 1999-2141), the Johanno-Pauline Code contains but a single norm in this area: 1983 CIC 1403. …The pontifical law referenced therein is found in John Paul II, ap. con. Divinus perfectionis Magister (25 January 1983), AAS 75 (1983) 349-355, Eng. trans. “The Divine Teacher of perfection” CLD 10: 266-273, and is supplemented by Congregation for the Causes of Saints, Normae servandae in inquisitionibus ab episcopis faciendis in causis sanctorum (7 February 1983), AAS 75 (1983) 396-403, Eng. trans. “Norms to be observed in inquiries made by bishops in the causes of saints” CLD 10: 273-281, and Congregation for the Causes of Saints, Decretum Generale de servorum Dei causis, quarum iudicium in praesens apud Sacram Congegationem pendet (7 February 1983), AAS 75 (1983) 403-404, Eng. trans. “General decree on the causes of the servants of God whose judgment is presently pending at the sacred congregation” CLD 10: 281-282. All three documents in Latin-English may be found in Canon Law Society of America, CODE OF CANON LAW, LATIN-ENGLISH EDITION, NEW ENGLISH TRANSLATION, (Canon Law Society of America, 1999) 659-677. Important discussions of modern law and practice in this area include: William Woestman, CANONIZATION: THEOLOGY, HISTORY, PROCESS (St. Paul University, 2002); Kenneth Woodward, MAKING SAINTS: HOW THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DETERMINES WHO BECOMES A SAINT, WHO DOESN’T, AND WHY (Touchstone, 1996); Fabian Veraja, LE CAUSE DI CANONIZZAZIONE DEI SANTI: COMMENTI ALLA LEGISLAZIONE E GUIDA PRATICA. (Libreria Editrice Vaticana, 1992); and T. Zubek, “New legislation about the canonization of the servants of God” The Jurist 43 (1983) 361-375. For commentary on Pio-Benedictine law, see Damian Blaher, THE ORDINARY PROCESSES IN CAUSES OF BEATIFICATION AND CANONIZATION, Canon Law Studies No. 268, (Catholic University of America, 1949).
Thanks for all that information, especially the suggested reading list. Most helpful.
From what I read from Pope Benedict's speech to the Catholic Action Movement, he certainly would like to see her as a model for them specifically, so I think that she is likely to be beatified. Whether this translates to canonization, it will be in God's hands.
I think it's a shame that the CNS article wasn't more accurate in its terminology.
Actually, Jesus offered children in general as a universal model of holiness. "Unless you become as a little child", remember? :)
Holiness is for everybody, and even the smallest, shortest life has value in God's eyes. A lot of children have taught this lesson, it's true; but apparently devotion to Nennolina's got enough widespread popularity and foundation over in Europe that the process really got cranking for her. The fact that the process did get cranking is itself a sign of God's will, so it's not as if the Pope is going to fight it.
Which is itself significant, since under his predecessor, he was the very one complaining about the Church canonizing too many local saints too quickly and without enough thought and scrutiny. If he's backing this, he really thinks Nennolina's important to back.
However, it also shows that B16 thinks that canon law questions about the process _should_ and _must_ be asked; in fact, I think B16 even expressed regret before his papacy that the "devil's advocate" office had been abolished. So you go, Ed Peters! You are one with the mind of the Church and this pope!
Synthesis through argument and reason, and disagreement among reasonable people for reasonable reasons. It's a good thing, people. Some of you should try it.
Thanks, Ed Peters and Tess, for all the info (which, I admit, I was too lazy to look up myself). I, too, thought beatification just a "step" on the way to canonization (and then wondered why some blesseds seem to get stuck on blessed and never make it to saint!). The info is much apperciated.
I guess I've lost my perspective on these sorts of things, and perhaps become quite a cynic, but I don't find either Meo's story or her letters extraordinary.
She grew up in a pious middle class household, her mother transcribed her letters for her, and she is a child. All of this makes them quite normal. Not to detract from their beauty, or even their charm, but please.
I am skeptical of any letter purportedly by a five or six year old that talks of finding a "good confessor." What is this? The product of her context. Her parents' instruction, that's what. Here, today, in the States, she wouldn't be old enough to make a confession.
It's pious twaddle, and to hear it called precocious depresses me. She is innocent, and good, and a child. One properly instructed by her parents according to the mores of her culture, era and class.
That's it.
She is with God. No doubt. And so a saint. But the act of canonizing her smacks of saccharine treacle and lace doilies. (Nennolina? I mean, wow. Holy smokes. I guess I've listened to far too much grunge, and my circuits and soul are far too gone. I'll invoke her as Blessed Meo, if that's alright..)
It would have been inconceivable that such a cause would have been considered before the Victorian fetishization and sentimentalization of childhood. We're a bunch of effeminate sentimentalists these days. So I'm sure, as Thomas avers, that her cause will sail through.
I just wonder what the martyrs and early monastics would think of all this.
Nonetheless, I seek her intercession. Blessed Meo, pray for us.
The martyrs and early monastics, I suspect, would roll their eyes at the entire legalistic process of beatification and canonization as we know it.
Nobody "canonized" the Holy Innocents, whom we nonetheless honored on our altars yesterday.
John, that's revolutionary talk. And I'm sure likely to be regarded seditious on a blog styled "The American Papist."
Spiritual positivism is the order of the day, or hadn't you heard?
some words about children from Origen(c. 248):
"For such was the charm of Jesus' words, that not only were men willing to follow Him into the wilderness, but... children too. Children are [normally] totally unaffected by such emotions, so perhaps they were only following their parents. Or perhaps they were also attracted by His divinity. In order that it might be implanted with them, they became His followers along with their parents."
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