AmericanPapist Comments
I really like Cardinal DiNardo. God bless his efforts!
Awesome story!
The Holy See should be more concerned about the innocents raped and murdered by the Jihadi in the Sudan. Perhaps, the Cardinal would like to lead a march there.
I think it's dangerous to equate the execution of people found guilty by a court of law with the slaughter of innocent unborn children. The government has a right to take some lives, just like it indirectly condemns some soldiers to die in times of war for the good of the nation.
It's not at all the same as an individual sacrificing a child on the altar of convenience.
I'm glad to see this.
I'm with Nathan-can't equate abortion with capital punishment.
Who is equating them? Opposing two different things does not make those two things equal. I get tired of people who dismiss church teaching on certain issues just because they're not as important as abortion.
I agree with EDM. They aren't equating anything here, and the death penalty (while not on the same level as abortion) is still a worthy pro-life cause.
No power on earth has the "moral authority" to murder.
Shooting and killing out of self-defense is different.
Joe,
Government's don't murder, they kill. And they do it (ideally) through a process established by law that goes to great lengths to protect the innocent from injust punishment -- in fact, erring on the side of not killing someone who in fact may be guilty.
Murder is an unlawful killing by an individual, meaning the proper legal procedures have not been followed. In this way, abortion could (should) be considered murder, whereas a death sentence is an act of established government carried out through its representatives.
Message for Cardinal DiNardo: Good for you, Your Eminence!
Nathan -
Governments don't murder, they kill.>
Isn't there a "thou shalt not" regarding that?
I also agree with EDM. Catholics are called to protect life from conception to natural death. State-sponsored murder is anything but natural.
I don't think it takes much research to realize that our justice system is less than perfect, as evidenced by the number of individuals who have been cleared from death row in recent years. I don't have much faith in the infallibility of a judge, prosecutor, and 12 jurors when it comes to overseeing whether or not a person is condemned to death. In our society with our prison system, the death penalty just isn't necessary to protect others from convicted murderers. Or so says #2267 in the Catechism.
Duly impressed. Kudos to the good Cardinal.
Whether or not the intent was to equate abortion and capital punishment, many Catholics and the wider world see such events as equating the two.
This in turn sends a confused message about the Church's stance on the two issues: abortion (not debatable, always and everywhere wrong), capital punishment (debatable, wrong if there are other reasonable alternatives).
And, of course, this confusion leads to a majority of Catholics voting for a wildly pro-abortion candidate because he has other qualities they admire and, after all, abortion is just one component of a culture of life.
--Aside: There is a very interesting essay by C.S. Lewis that argues that Retributive justice is actually more in keeping the the dignity of man than is Humanitarian justice.
Right or wrong, he is always worth reading. See "The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment" from God in the Dock or at http://www.angelfire.com/pro/
lew...manitarian.html
"Isn't there a 'thou shalt not' regarding that?"
Yes. The proper translation of the original Hebrew is "Thou shalt not murder".
Thank you bill,
Steph,
Yes, thou (you) shall not kill/murder. You, as an individual, are not authorized to take the life of someone else in normal circumstances. If you'll read some of the rest of the Old Testament, you'll find that God authorized (commanded!) the taking of human life by governments and their representatives (armies) on a regular basis.
The Catechism teaches that legitimate government authority may take the life of a convicted criminal in order to maintain the safety of the community. It specifically states that if there are specific means to protect the population that involve bloodless means the state should limit itself to those means.
I've argued on both sides of the death penalty issue and I'm currently convinced that the US has such means to keep our general public safe from these criminals. Although you can point to prison escapes, the majority (if not all) of these escapes are by criminals who are not on death row, but even if they were, I don't believe that "what if" scenarios are sufficient to justify the taking of a human life.
While abortion and the death penalty differ in both kind and degree, they represent at some level an injustice. The first of course is the murder of innocents. The second is the presumption that murders do not deserve the remainder of their lives for God's grace to work on their repentance.
There are some who will point to the Tradition of the Church that says what was left out of the Catechism--that the State has the authority to impose the death penalty as a just punitive sentence and not simply for the protection of the population. I used to hold the view that this right of the State should be preserved in America, but the holocaust of abortion and the horror of our wars have shown me that America has too much blood on her hands as it is. We cannot be a peaceful nation if we do not seek peaceful means of defense wherever they can be found.
It would indeed be un-Christian, and in fact evil, to support capital punishment as a means of inhibiting God's grace from working in the lives of those convicted of crimes.
But it is offensive to propose that that is the only reason people support capital punishment.
There are many honest reasons that people support capital punishment, among them is a reading of human nature that suggests capital punishment is more likely to lead to repentance and redemption than is rotting away in prison, particularly in a society that specializes in denying one's guilt in any situation.
Nathan, Congratulations on the Excellent Quote for the Day! Check it out. You did good!
http://lubiankaprison.phpbb-host...m/
ftopic913.php
MATT SAID: "I've argued on both sides of the death penalty issue and I'm currently convinced that the US has such means to keep our general public safe from these criminals."
I am with you on this issue Matt, but there are two problems that make hamper keeping the public safe.
1. Due to liberalism many dangerous criminals run gangs from inside the prisons and still issue death hits from their cells.
2. Also due to liberalism is the problem of lawyers manipulating loopholes that free these criminals.
A serious drawback is in the light sentences given to sex offenders and sex offending child molesters. These should be treated as capital crimes so that a person only committs the crime one time.
No matter what the liberals say, the death penalty IS a deterrent.
The death penalty is anachronistic. If you're going to say the Old Testament approves of it, where do you draw the line? If a person works on the Sabbath, he/she should be put to death (Exodus 35:2). Cursing your mother or father is a capital crime (Ex 21:17), and a woman is to be burned if she's wearing garments made from two different threads. I live in Kansas and my father ran his family farm. Should he have been stoned for having wheat and corn planted side by side?
I'm of the opinion that it's good we've advanced beyond capital punishment for such crimes despite the Old Testament's prescription for them. I am also of the opinion that it's good that we advance beyond needless killing of even those who have killed.
I think St. Paul, since the thoughts of John Paul II are apparently ignored in this discussion, sums up nicely the issue of capital punishment: "'Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord'" (Romans 12:19).
Rustler45, your first point might have some weight, but when those people are discovered, they're generally sent to a supermax prison or some other measure is taken. Thomas Silverstein would be a nice example, as he's been in solitary confinement since 1983 after murdering a prison guard. So yet again, we still have means to handle such people who are still responsible from murder even when behind bars.
As for your second point, there's no disagreeing that loopholes need to be shut. But it seems as though you're implying that this is only a one-way street: only criminals get off while the innocent are never found guilty. You might not be implying this at all, but I would hope that even an unabashed supporter of the death penalty would admit that that's not the case.
The bottom line is that the Church teaches that we're to protect life from conception to natural death. I don't see any loopholes there. Not in this country anyway.
Thomas Silverstein is actually an apt example of why capitial punishment has a place even in a wealthy society such as ours.
The least among us--widows, orphans, and prisoners in biblical terms--deserve the same protection as the rest of us. Silverstein stands convicted of three murders in prison--two inmates and one guard (according to Wikipedia). How where they protected by our system?
Now he is in something called "no human contact status" which is apparently an extreme form of solitary confinement. Whether this is more humane than capital punishment I will leave others to debate, but I would again recommend Lewis for anyone who wants to see our system with a fresh set of eyes. One of the best things about Lewis is that he didn't dismiss ideas just because his generation didn't initiate them.
But this is all entirely afield from where we started. I notice that no one has disputed that abortion is a grave sin and offense against human dignity. I also notice that there is a vigorous discussion about whether capital punishment is. Therefore the original point stands, the good bishop confuses the flock and men of good will by participating in an event that gives the appearance of equating the two. And, we saw the result of that confusion in our recent election.
Well, what's your solution, Guy? Let everything else take the backburner? It's not "either/or," it's "and/both." I applaud the Cardinal, because he demonstrates that being pro-life means more than being anti-abortion only.
Guy, I think most among us simply accept that abortion is a grave sin and, therefore, there's no reason to even debate that point. On the other hand, the matter of protecting life until natural death, or not, is obviously a matter of debate.
As for Silverstein, my point is that he was dealt with in a manner that didn't require taking his life, even if it was belated. Hell, life in prison, or even the death penalty, for those who actually believe it's a deterrent (I would need to be supplied with evidence, because I'm unaware of any to support a claim), is a belated way of dealing with murderers now. I'd actually be curious to know the murder rate within America's prisons to determine whether or not this facet is even a real issue. Even if it is, the answer isn't the death penalty but rather a better way of handling prisoner interactions.
Because we live in a fallen world, life usually presents us with either/or decisions and those who refuse to recognize that fact will pay a severe price for it. As a matter of fact, we recently had an either/or event called an election. And in that either/or event we chose the "or" who believes it is perfectly acceptable for a mother (with the help of her doctor) to kill her child up to and including immediately after the child's birth. And a majority of Catholics voted for that "or". Why was that?
I propose it is because events and homilies and articles that link issues such as capital punishment with abortion gave opportunists such as Doug Kiemic ammunition. Ammunition with which they convinced Catholics that abortion is just one of many life issues and that, since no candidate or party is perfectly consistent on the life issues, each of us gets to pick and choose which we "feel" is most important and then vote our "conscience". This is a classic case of the ideal (both/and) becoming the enemy of the good.
So, yes, bishops should speak up about capital punishment. Yes, they should preach from Scripture and Tradition and reason why they believe that America has reached a point where it is no longer just to execute convicted criminals.
But, the bishops should craft their actions based on the reality that most Americans don't follow such events closely. The bishops should craft their actions based on the reality that what most Americans do read and see and hear is filtered through sources that are actively hostile to the Church and to a culture of life. They should craft their actions based on the reality that these sources use any ambiguity to create and nurture confusion. And, because of this reality, they should stop mixing issues such as capital punishment with abortion because doing so makes it harder to end abortion. And by any rational measure abortion is the greater evil.
In the end, I may well be wrong about the prudence of decoupling abortion from capital punishment, and it is too late for this election anyway. But early next year, we will watch another either/or decision. I fear Moloch will be pleased.
Nathan,
The problem isn't a therapeutic euphemism. If we knew how to "handle prisoner interactions", we would also know how to "handle citizen interactions" and the original murder wouldn't have taken place.
The problem is human nature. What is the best real understanding we have of it? And, in this case, how do we apply that understanding to the punishment meted out to people who break the law?
I don't mean to be a broken record, but have you read "The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment"? (See link above.) It is only 4 typewritten pages. Lewis isn't debating capital punishment in the article, but instead is exploring what is truly humane punishment. Nothing I say will be as eloquent or logical, so I leave it to your interest.
Nathan, I believe Murdoch just shot down your theory.
"Silverstein stands convicted of three murders in prison--two inmates and one guard (according to Wikipedia). How where they protected by our system?"
Or do prison guards and inmates not count for anything?
Fry the sucker!
Just wondering Rustler45, when scientists are able to isolate the gene that determines the relative possibility of an embryo becoming gay, will you support abortion in this instance?
A wonderful witness by the cardinal. I have some experience at marching in the South for social causes and would have loved to be with him.
Is this a true statement, Katherine? Or is it a lie like the one you told on your blog about David Duke supporting John McCain? It is kind of hard to believe what you say when you tell lies and then refuse to retract them when given evidence to the contrary.
It may have been more true to march from PP to a nursing home, but because the death penalty is something continually thrown at pro-lifers (who often don't support the death penalty), I think the Cardinal's action was wise. Too many people see Catholic social justice and respect for the life of the unborn child as conflicting. There should be no conflict between the two--social justice begins with the child in the womb.
Yes, Joanne, a very wise action. Too many people misunerstand the comprehensiveness of Catholic social action and we need to take affirmative steps to correct these mistaken impressions.
Ah, Katherine, is telling lies part of Catholic social action?
Kathy you're being quite aggressive. Necessary? Seems like you have a personal vendetta against Katherine.
Sidonius Apollinaris SAID: Kathy you're being quite aggressive. Necessary? Seems like you have a personal vendetta against Katherine.
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no sid, she is not, Katherine is pro-communist pro-atheist pro-muslim pro-abortion anti-catholic anti-free speech.....in short she does lie and is the enemy of all things CATHOLIC. who are you sid?
FAUSTO SAID!!!!???? ON A CATHOLIC SITE NO LESS!!!:::
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Just wondering Rustler45, when scientists are able to isolate the gene that determines the relative possibility of an embryo becoming gay, will you support abortion in this instance?
fausto | 11.28.08 - 8:02 am | #
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WHAT!!!?? WHAT!!!??
and not one response to this spit in the face to all of the CHURCH!!!
this crooked backdoor snake's approach at justification of homosexuality and child murder? all you good catholics just sat on your hands and let that go?? did you ban this snake? who even called himself fausto! this whole site is mystifying to me i can't tell who is on what side no one speaks as if they really have a real belief. CHANGE THIS SITE NAME TO "LUKEWARMVILLE SPEWING".....
Wow. This guy claims to be a *Roman* Catholic and he doesn't know Fausto is an Italian name????
Ever hear of:
Fausto Cleva, Italian-born American operatic conductor?
Fausto Coppi, (1919-1960), Italian racing cyclist?
Fausto Gresini, Italian motorcycle racer?
Fausto Paolo Sozzini (1539–1604), Italian theologian?
Fausto Poli (1581–1653), Italian Catholic priest?
Fausto Ricci, Italian motorcycle racer ?
Monument to St. Pius X, designed by Florestano di Fausto ?
Fausto dos Santos, Brazilian footballer?
Fausto Carmona, Cleveland Indians starting pitcher?
Spectatio, did you just step out of a McCarthy hearing?
Sidonius,
There is no personal vendetta. Katherine makes a practice of telling lies about people on her blog and then comes on all innocent and "Catholic." Trust me she is neither.
Faustus you protest too much, don't try to fool me that you are not of Satan......coming in here spouting gay gene propaganda and mere excuse idiology for child murder. you are a gay and an atheist and a hater of Catholics just like katherine don't try to fool people.
Well Sidneyus are you still stinging from Joe Mcarthy it's only been 60 years. what was he saying now, that was wrong?.......that washington and hollywood were full of communists. o really now, there ain't no commies in dc and hollywood sid? are you posing as a catholic sid?
be careful sid there's a joe mcarthy under every bush.
Spectacio is Rustler45.
Nobody else could be so anti-Catholic and claim himself to be Catholic.
Otherwise, it's gotta just cloning gone awry, proving once and for all the dangers involved in that practice.
Faustus
sorry to disappoint you. but in your complete confusion of mind how do you call me anti-catholic when all I have said is in defense of the church. in your mind is a good communist a good catholic? is a baby killer a Godly man? is homosexual behavior purity? explain these things Faust.
I notice you didn't deny that Spectacio (Specious, Pistachio, Pinnochio, whatever) and Rustler45 are one and the same cyberentity. Answer my question and stop speaking with a forked tongue, calling me Faust. Then maybe I will answer your silly questions.
OK FAUST I AM NOT RUSTLER45, TRY NOT TO WEEP ON YOUR DAS KAPITAL OVER IT........NOW ANSWER MY QUESTIONS.
What's the matter foust? Are you paranoid? What? Worried about Rustler? What's the matter? Are you afraid he's tracking you down you sneaky little vermin? Don't worry. He is. He's looking for you foust. Wimpy little cowards like you are always afraid of men like the Rustler and Spectato. Their lot in life is exposing cowardly creatures like you. Go whine to your mommy foustie toastie. The Green Hornet is looking for you too. Shake in your boots and worry about this. I know you foust. I have known you for a long long time. I am the conscience of your miserable soul.
BOO!!!
Did that scare you fautso? I thought so. How about coming over to the Lubyanka Prison Riots Forum. We have level playing field over there. You're not afraid of pictures of guns are you?
You'e not afraid of us are you fautso?
Foastie toastie. Been having nightmares lately? Boo! I am the Ghost of Joe McCarthy. I want to talk to you.
Can you say "exposed"? Can you say "multiple alias disorder"? Can you say "grafitti"? Can you say "spam"? Can you say "troll"? Can you say "ridiculous"? Isn't Joe McCarthy a dummy hand puppet?
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