AmericanPapist Comments
Just like little children, when things start going wrong, they all run Home, in this case, to Rome, to find comfort in the truth and stability of the One, Holy and Apostolic Church. Let's continue to pray for many and more conversions our Universal Church.
It's my opinion that most "Churchy" Anglicans have pretty much been in the boat for a long time, but the Petrine office has been the biggest stumbling block. Maybe this is what it'll take to get them totally in the barque.
But I'll be very interested to see if this is a mostly a clerical move or of the rank-and-file Anglicans follow their clergy. It won't mean much if a few bishops join the Tiber swim team and the militant don't follow.
The problem hasn't been Rome, the problem has been liberal bishops who don't want orthodox, traditional, faithful converts. It's sad to say, but many of the liberal bishops (esp. in England in Wales) agree with the liberal-Anglicans: pro-homosexuality, pro-female ordination, pro-discarding scripture.
For that reason the liberal hierarchy has been entirely skipped over. A great many high Anglicans are 100% fine with Petrine authority (again, moreso than Catholic Liberals).
My hope:
Some sort of structure is set up that allows Anglicans to swim the Tiber worldwide, including in America. Then I can attend good liturgy at a converted-high-Episcopal Church.
News like this makes me optimistic that maybe this is the last lambeth conference... I don't know if the Anglican communion can make it to the next one.
I live in Virginia, where a large number of parishes have defected from the Episcopalian Church and have aligned themselves with traditional Anglican "bishops" from Africa and South America. Recently, they just won a court case giving them legal rights to their parish property due to an interesting never-before-used law from a hundred years ago governing property during the break-up of a denomination.
Interesting, no?
Fr Longnecker at "Standing on my head" has been following this.
As a former Anglican, he offers some interesting veiws.
I cannot see that huge numbers of Anglican Priests will be welcomed this time by the Hierarchy in E & W. When the decision to Ordain women to the priesthood was made a decade or so ago many were welcomed and in time we ordained Catholic Priest. I cannot see that the Bishops will welcome this happening again. Would Andrew Burnham expect to be ordained a Bishop? - When Graham Leonard, the former anglican bishop of London eventually converted (after he had retired!) he expected to become a bishop - but was only ordained a priest.
I cannot see that the people of the Catholic Church in England and Wales will welcome an influx of disenfranchised former anglican clergy - there have been many problems with Cultural Differences in many parish (by Culture I mean the different way of doing things in Anglican and Catholic Churches)
This is not to mention the fairly large number of married priests that we already have in England and Wales (from the last tranche that crossed over). While it relieves the shortage of priests - it is not a good sign for young men considering a life of service in the priesthood - which includes for them celibacy - when other men are married!
If only things were more simple!
D2142:
I don't live in the U.K. so you are much closer to the situation. However, I think most orthodox Catholics will accept what Pope Benedict does, and I think he is intimately involved in this situation. Thus, based on what I have read, it seems the Anglican "Flying Bishops" have already done a "pincer move" around the Catholic Bishops of England and Wales, and have gone straight to the Vatican.
I think Pope Benedict, who understand Tradition and History, sees this moment as a chance to start bringing back England to Rome. Lets just say I, as an American of Sicilian ancestry, have always had a love for England, its system of law, its economics, its literature, the British humor etc. It always bothered me more that England, as opposed to the Nordic countries, went Protestant.
I would hope that all Catholics see this as part of God's providential plan and view any Anglican clergy who get ordained as Catholic priests as God providing ordained Priests to provide the Sacraments to the his people.
As for Bishops, there is no way that Rome will ordain married Anglicans as Bishops. This would violate Apostolic Tradition and of course raise and obstacle with the Eastern Orthodox, which of course have First place in ecumencial relations.
Former Anglican Bishop of London, Graham Leonard, wanted to be ordained as a Bishop, but Rome refused as he was married. He was made a Monsignor and because he could trace his ordination to an Anglican Bishop who had is orders validiated by one of the Old Catholic Bishops, he was ordained "conditionally", being perhaps the only Anglican not ordained "unconditionally".
Pax et Bonun
Andrew, can you tell me more about the Virginia decision you've cited? Specific details if you can, please. Thanks.
This is great news. You can only pull away from the Church so much before you start moving in the right direction again. Let's just hope others get frustrated with their current churches and realize we've been right all along...
The Virginia decision, of course, I believe had the Catholic diocese filing an amicus brief against the Traditionalists and for the National Episcopal Church.
The other sad factor, is that too many traditionalist Anglicans can tolerate an overseas African bishop but can't bring themselves to join with their immediate Catholic neighbors when they are working class and of Irish or Polish heritage.
Romulus, here's a link to the story.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/n...constitutional/
Colleagues:
The Anglican Communion is currently fissioning into three parts:
1) The Anglo-Catholic wing, the slice that is rejecting the ordination of women bishops (and women priests) and seems to want to start to make the jump over the Tiber to Rome.
2) The Global South wing, which recently organized itself at the Global Anglican Future conference (GAFCON -- remember that, you're going to be hearing a lot about it), which is VERY large in Africa and the other Third World countries, and has attracted the allegiance of disaffected Episcopalians in North America.
3) The Episcopal Organization -- to use Chris Johnson's phrase -- which is no longer a church, but a form of paganism.
It would take too long to explain the ins and outs of the story here. Just go through the archive of Chris Johnson's Midwest Conservative Journal (MCJ) for the details.
Now, what happens next? I have always maintained the following:
1. The Anglicans would split into Christ-following and Christ-rejecting camps.
2. The Christ-following camp would form itself into a polity, and select (for lack of a better word) a Patriarch to lead it.
3. This polity would seek union with Rome -- it's the Union of Brest-Litovsk all over again!
What we didn't really see coming was the formation of two Christ-following camps in the Anglican world -- the High Church WO-rejectors, and the GAFCON camp, which is more Low Church, Protestant-oriented, Thirty-Nine Articles-favoring.
The High Church wing wants to go to Rome. The GAFCON wing isn't moving in that direction yet. What the GAFCON wing doesn't understand yet is unless it comes to Rome, the same poison which killed the faith of the pagan wing of the Anglican movement will kill it too.
We have been keeping an eye on the matter over at The Black Cordelias for a time now. Some of us have been asking if there will be a TAC/Anglican-Related Announcement post-Lambeth? for a time now.
D2142 - A lot of us have been of the thinking that B16, the same venerable Pontiff that gave us Summorum Pontificum might actually be up to something on this matter already. Best guesses from people who guess well include the creation of a template that would essentially be a world-wide pastoral provision that could circumnavigate the recalcitrant Catholic bishops that have - in times past - given these would-be orthodox folks such a cold shoulder.
Let's continue to pray for all the folks involved and especially for these Anglican Church leaders! God can work through even all of this chaos!
Only Providence could have allowed for the Anglican Communion to have dissolved while this Holy Father was at the wheel. Thank you, Jesus, for the blessing of this Pope to allow a safe haven for those who have recognized their sin and folly.
Viva il Papa!
Perhaps I'm overly cynical, but I don't think there will be an en masse conversion. There's a reason high church Anglicans are still, well, Anglican and often times, depending on the person, trading the Church of England for the Roman Catholic Church is not the same as substituting Pepsi for Coke. Many of the Anglicans I know still have serious issues with the authority of the Pope, mandatory celibacy for priests, and any number of other assorted Church teachings.
Also, my understanding of canon law is such that a married man cannot be a bishop in the RCC. I wonder if that would have a chilling effect on any high-level conversions?
Rt. Rev. Burnham's hope that existing parishes will be able to continue to worship in their churches is probably the least plausible. Unlike the parishes in Virginia, as the Church of England is the state church, I'm not sure what kind of property dispute(s) would ensue if parishes attempt to retain their actual physical building space.
I'm more than happy any time a large group of people are considering becoming Catholic. Call me Thomas, but I am more of a "I'll believe it when I see it" kind of gal.
I grew up Episcopalian and now go to a Catholic parish. Even though I went to Catholic school as a kid and have always been around Catholicism, it is still a big leap, even as close as Anglo-Catholicism is to Catholicism. In order for there to be mass conversions, there will need to be allowance by the Church of England to let parish properties go, either for free or with a buy-out.
Anglicans, at least as much as Catholics, have a very deep connection to their home parish. It is not quite like the Jewish connection to the Temple Mount, but it ain't far off. While we in Anglicania have lived in a state of low-level theological uncertainty for generations, we have found that "rootedness" most with our church sanctuary (esp. if it is a historic church) and liturgy.
The other thing is that these congregations are probably relatively small and not in a financial position to bankroll a new building at the drop of a hat. Without the parish property being able to come with the congregation, conversions will probably be sparse.
That is how it has been in the US since 2003. If parishes owned their properties in the Episcopal Church, things would have been entirely different in the last few years--probably 1/4 or more of the churches would have left. Without that ability, most just surrender quietly without a fight.
+JMJ+
You know, I hate to say this, but having even a bunch of bishops defect seems just like what happened when the Catholic bishops in England originally BECAME Anglican. They get mad with their current hierarchy and jump ship. Granted, I'm thrilled that they might be willing to jump back into our ship (THE ship), but I'm still kind of skeptical of the motives. I'm glad they're talking with Rome, especially with the Holy Father and the CDF. I've not known either of those to overlook poor motives for the sake of "unity".
Just keep praying. St. Augustine of Canterbury, ora pro nobis!
Pax et bonum,
LW
LW, I am not so sure. I can only speak for myself, but most Anglicans, and definitely Anglo-Catholics, have always looked to the Catholic Church. Unlike the vast majority of Protestant churches, Anglicans say the Nicene Creed every Sunday, where we believe in and pray for the one holy catholic and apostolic church. I.e., we believe in turning towards unity. There are different ways to row towards unity, but that is the Christian standard.
What the COE did was take a defiant turn away from that part of the creed. This is not rationalization, it is a fundamental part of Anglcanism. Anglo-Catholics stick it out in the COE because they want to be a part of the movement that shepherds the COE back towards Rome. This may be walking on pins and needles here, but the Catholic Church has not been perfect throughout history. How much the Church must change to allow Anglicans to say the necessary reforms have been made to allow a return to unity is a matter of endless theological bickering, but it takes two to tango. (For the record, I believe that the Catholic Church has righted its ship from the excesses of the Renaissance that precipitated the Protestant movement.)
Anyway, the point is that these are not folks just turning away from the liberals. They have always wanted the good ship Anglican to sail towards the barque of Peter, to use the tired analogy. Once the good ship Anglican tacks left, it's time to get in the life rafts to continue the push for the one holy catholic and apostolic church.
We should pray and welcome home all who knock at the door. Our prayer should include that the Anglican faithful seek out the Church, as Bishop Burnham has said, because they believe what she is and what she teaches and aren't just running away.
I think this can be a wonderful opportunity the Holy Spirit is opening up for the Anglican Church to come back to Rome. Yet, there are many theological points that have to be accepted by the Anglicans before this can come about. For starts, Apostolic Succession, Petrine office etc, since, there has been a break with Apostolic tradition and ritual tampering, residue from the Restoration Period of the 17th century, the clergy would have to be trained and ordained in the Roman Catholic Church.
Finally, logistics would have to be worked out. Would Anglican parishes that want to re-unite with Rome be able to take their buildings? There may be legal questions. What if the whole parish does not want to re-unite with Rome? Would those who remain Protestant contest the change if property is involved? Finally, when dioceses or parish become in Full Communion with Rome, there will be need for catechesis, especially in doctrine, morals, canon law etc.
While this can be a wonderful moment in unity, there has to be much preparation and work and most of all a plan to follow. But anything worthwhile is work the effort.
God Speed,
Fr. Brighenti
Your point about who gets the property is a good one. That tends to be highly dictated by the disposition of the priest. Whatever the result, there would need to be formal, clear rules on making that decision.
I doubt that the Vatican wants to get into a proxy war with Canterbury. Nothing good can come of that. Plus, my guess is that Benedict has a good deal of professional respect for ABp Williams. Both are first-rate theologians and will have a good deal of mutual respect stemming from that alone, aside from the courtesy that generals give each other.
If Williams is fine with the basic idea, an orderly process will probably ensue. If not, any conversions will be individual and piecemeal.
That being said, there is plainly a very serious, deep desire on the part of both Anglican traditionalists and Benedict to make this happen. Neither is playing politics here. The desire for catholic unity runs deep.
To add, that means that the next big battle here will probably be a proxy war between liberals and traditionalists in the COE for the heart of ABp Williams. The Anglican Communion has had five long, extremely hard years of that over the Episcopal Church (USA). Williams wants everyone to get along and is more of a grandfather than a father. He wants to please everyone and discipline no one.
The liberals will undoubtedly vehemently oppose any attempt by the Anglican traditionalists to leave with their property. The General Synod will probably enact legislation preventing it. Williams won't try to over-ride that.
I bet that is the end game.
For whatever its worth:
The Very Rev. Father Pheenan, editor of The Catholic World, who is now on a visit to Rome, thinks that the conversions announced from Philadelphia, Fond, Du Lac, and other places in the United States, will soon be followed by many others. He points out that the Protestant Episcopal Church is being broken up by the two antagonistic tendencies which have been so long at work in its bosom – towards Catholicism on the one hand and towards Rationalism on the other. The spirit of indifference in the matter of definite dogmatic teaching has been fostered by the absence of religious instruction in the schools for the last hundred years. The “open-pulpit” canon is reducing the obligation of belief to the lowest possible dimensions. Three-fourths of the Protestant population of America are unbaptised and the divorces are five times as many as are granted in the rest of the world together. The House of Laymen of the Episcopal Church has a divorced man for its President in the person of Mr Vanderbilt. In one State of America there are as many divorces as there are marriages. This startling picture given by Father Pheehan [sic] leads him to infer that men of goodwill, who have been brought up in Protestantism, are taking alarm and flying for refuge and salvation to the bosom of the true Church.
–The Tablet, 13 June 1908
Interesting tidbit.
For those not familiar with the trajectory of the Episcopal Church, it shot up from maybe 1880 to 1960. It was often "the" place to go to church and everything was done in first-class manner. Back then, American culture still supported the basic tenets of most of Christianity--even divorce was still frowned upon, so the Episcopal Church did not have to bother so much with independently enforcing doctrine.
Then came the 60s and the destruction of that social fabric. TEC had no strong theological underpinning, so its Christian fiber came apart. The church has probably dropped by about half (esp. in terms of average Sunday attendance) since 1960.
There are Episcopal parishes all across the country today where you will see no more than a handful of children in church on a given Sunday, and the national average age is 57.
The demographics do not lie. The church will continue to collapse into a refuge for disgruntled ex-Catholics and hard-core liberals of various stripes, plus a few random old stand-bys.
The Virginia decision, of course, I believe had the Catholic diocese filing an amicus brief against the Traditionalists and for the National Episcopal Church.
Ah Katherine, you old pot-stirring contrarian, you! Long time no talk! I had figured your "Catholics for Obama" website was keeping you busy...
You were thinking the Catholic Church would NOT support the rights of the denomination over parties going into schism? I thought you have "hung with the Greek Catholics"... Ever hear of the trusteeship battles? There is a reason the parishes are listed in the name of the bishop...
The other sad factor, is that too many traditionalist Anglicans can tolerate an overseas African bishop but can't bring themselves to join with their immediate Catholic neighbors when they are working class and of Irish or Polish heritage.
Bit of a false dichotomy there if you think about it. Although race and class are a HUGE part of your worldview - going by your comboxery - It does occur to me that if the overseas African was a "Papist" and the next door Poles & Irish were not... Well do the math. Keep in mind not everyone is as wrapped up in class and race.
Simplesinner,
So nice to again experience your kind Christian charity. God bless you.
K, why the sarcasm? I think there are a couple of loose ends in ASIMSin's arguments, but where is s/he being uncharitable?
Really, did I miss it?
I continue to think that any Anglicans who are complaining about women priests and bishops, gay priests, etc and who claims to be so 'Anglo-Catholic', should just go ahead and convert on their own. Remember, those who put their hand to the plow, but look back are not ready for the kingdom. If they are being held back from Rome by the physical beauty of their parish church or by the pretty prayers in the BCP, they are allowing themselves to be distracted by things of the world. We have been praying for Unity continually and will continue until all our one as Jesus and the Father are one.
A few points to keep in mind (from a fallen away Catholic gone Anglican now reconciling):
1. The conservative center of gravity in the AC has been and is increasingly reformed. The anglo-catholics have been scraped off bit by bit and don't represent a real power base. I think the liberals will lament departures because they look bad in the press, undercut claims to inclusivity, and make the lefty anglo-cats (the usual version) look more like sectarian liberals who like fancy get-up.
2. What kept a lot of anglo-catholics in the AC was the presence of options: if you didn't like what the churches did, you didn't need to go along with it, could seek alternative oversight, a flying bishop, rely on bishop's discretion, etc, etc. The Episcopal Church in the US is rapidly closing down these options, and the CoE recently failed to include options for anglo-cats in their decision to ordan women bishops.
3. In my experience, there are subtle but very important differences between orthodox RC's and anglo-cats. Even if the anglo-cats believe the same things (Transubstantiation, Immaculate Conception of Mary, Communion of Saints, etc), most believe they are reasonable, logical, Scripturally-grounded, tradition-sanctioned that still ought not be required for salvation.
Ultimately, I think what emerges will be an RC provision for the TAC (which is NOT in communion with Canterbury), plus some high-profile conversions among CoE bishops and individual conversions, but not a mass conversion. In the US, angry anglo-cats have more options, so while some will go to Rome, others will go to the continuing churches, some of which are linked to GAFCON.
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