AmericanPapist Comments
I just saw Biden-Gate, but instead of Augustine, he refers to Thomas Aquinas!
He also, mistakenly, says belief that life begins at conception is a matter of faith!. This is actually a scientific truth.
We really need to storm heaven for this election.
A new world record has been set for proving Santanya's Razor ("Those ignorant of the past are condemned to repeat it."): Biden doesn't even know what happened to Speaker Pelosi just two weeks ago on this very topic.
This is gonna be good.
Usually when you are strolling along in a field and see your friend get exploded by a land mine, you stop.
Usually, Scott. Usually.
When you're in a hole, you're supposed to stop digging. I thought these people were supposed to be "Brilliant?" The left-wing media keeps telling us so. Tom
Well, I hope and pray that the bishops will not only respond clearly to this new shameful declaration by a so called "Catholic", but that the bishops who are in charge in the respective dioceses of those politicians will take the measure to hinder them to receive Communion (and there is no reason Kerry, Kennedy and Giuliani would not be rebuked at the same time).
Oh, my Lord, is he THAT stupid???
So trilled to find other Catholic Bloggers who are well versed, smart and battling the Un-Catholic "Catholic" Pope of Dopes Pelosi, Biden and their diciples like Ted K, Tom Ridge & others who are Cultural Catholics with bad cafeteria habits. This is a Grace filled moment for the Catholic Bishops and the Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church to be Apostolic and tell these Political Beasts that they need to yield to the teachings of the Church or leave her. 50+ million abortions in the USA dwarfs the Holy Innocents of Biblical Times and for the Bishops not to exercise their responsibilities is culpable beyond belief!
How do you argue with an irrational person? How many times can you refute their stupid f-ing "arguments" over and over again before they at least try NEW stupid f-ing arguments?
A woman who used to live up the street and visit my grandmother was really imbalanced. One day she came down the street very upset that her friend didn't pick her up like she does every friday night. It was thursday night. I told her it was thursday. She didn't believe me. I showed her the newspaper. She didn't believe in those (ok, fair enough- it was the Boston Globe). I showed her on the TV. Nope. She was convinced it was friday because her friend picks her up every friday night, even though she didn't this time.
I know, it was insane. No argument helped. You simply can't argue with the insane.
These politicians like Pelosi and Biden have so corrupted themselves in their pursuit of power and heretical ideology that they have murdered their own conscience and reason.
What's left when you can't argue?
Vote the bums out.
I'm getting the feeling like Pelosi-gate was nothing more than the preseason. Now that we have the glitches out in pastoral responses Biden has spoken up to see the efficiency of the Episcopal Response.
Whoever has Bishop Chaput on his Fantasy Bishops Team should be looking to post high numbers...watching too much NFL.
As I have said before, the Bishops' responses don't matter to these folks. No matter the responses, all these folks have to do it stand in front of the microphones and say that the Bishops are out of touch with mainstream Catholics, and that mainstream Catholics have a different set of beliefs.
Did anyone else think this morning's readings were absolutely spot-on for the current situation? I lectored this morning, and literally at the same time I was reading from Ezekiel, Biden was on the air talkin' trash about the Church...
The Bishops are really taking this to heart...
If I tell the wicked, “O wicked one, you shall surely die, ”
and you do not speak out to dissuade the wicked from his way,
the wicked shall die for his guilt,
but I will hold you responsible for his death.
But if you warn the wicked,
trying to turn him from his way,
and he refuses to turn from his way,
he shall die for his guilt,
but you shall save yourself.
i wonder if biden's new bishop will do a niederauer. i pray that God will give the bishop courage and strength.
Has anyone else considered the possibility that Biden's "mistake" was no accident? The Obama campaign was upset about the Pelosi incident and was quoted as saying that it wanted no part of it. There's just no WAY that he didn't know about that whole affair...
Perhaps the Obama campaign is pushing this issue to the forefront on purpose, knowing that the majority of the U.S. citizenry is pro-choice, and that it will help them in the election. What if it does help them, regardless of the bishops' response? I'm really hoping someone can explain to me why this can't be a successful stratagem.
Oy vey!
Again.
Let us hope that the bishops, individually and collectively, come out again with clear, direct and courageous responses.
Congratulations to Bishop Morlino for his fast response and for taking his teaching office seriously. He gave a forthright, logical and compassionate response on the fly. Good for him and good for us.
To those clamoring for denials of communion, I hear you and agree that some of the most egregious cases probably should be dealt with that way. That said, let us not engage in armchair bishoping. Let us pray for, encourage and love our bishops. Deciding to deny someone communion is a grave burden and never an easy call. Because of the apostolic ministry of service they provide they especially deserve the charity we owe to all. Let us be mindful that their responsibility as enforcers of the CIC needs to be balanced with their duty as pastors. The ancient churches all view the eucharist as a right of the believer and a gift from God to strenghten, encourage and further convert the sinner and never as a reward for not sinning. Certainly, it was not intended as a weapon against believers who fall short. With that in mind, might not a bishop legitimately judge that allowing communion is the more Christ like and wisest course of action?
At all times let us love our bishops. When in agreement with them, encourage them. When believing they fall short, remember our duty to be charitable and criticize only with great and well considered humility.
Let us always remember that when we do need to deny someone communion that it is a loss and a cause for mourning. Never is it a victory.
I highly suspect that many a Bishop will be glad when this election is over & they can pretend like there is no problem with CINO politicians who make statements like Biden & Pelosi.
Congrats to Tom Brokaw for being used as an instrument of the Lord. It's time to open up this particular wound in the Catholic Church and clean it out.
I have very little interest, enthusiasm, or knowledge about elections and political strategy. With that disclaimer, it is conceivable that Biden's performance on Meet the Press was intentional?
(Apologies to the SocraticPlatonist. I belatedly read your post.)
Crazylikeknoxes and Socratic Platonist, I was wondering the same thing, and I think it is possible that Biden did this on purpose. He is keeping up his claim that he is a "practicing Catholic" while justifying his abortion positions with a religious “tolerance” stance. The same sort of thing seemed to work for John F. Kennedy, so why not for Biden?
I wonder if, perhaps, they are trying to provoke the bishops into taking actions or making statements that would be unpopular with a majority of Americans. I recall seeing a poll recently, (maybe in OSV), stating that most Americans would like to see religious leaders say out of political debates. (Yes, abortion is both political and moral, but such distinctions may not count for much.)
Personally, I'm inclined to the "concupiscence darkens the intellect" explanation.
CLK -- That's what I was thinking, too. An episcopal clarification might actually help them in the election. Hopefully, a clarification will tug on the consciences of Catholics who are straddling the fence on these issues. It might even bring about the added benefit of clarifying who's for us and whose against us in the culture war...
On the other hand, Biden did leave the bishops some wiggle room by stating at the beginning of the conversation that he accepts the Church's teaching on the matter. It's a brilliant and awful piece of double-speak. If the Bishops issue a clarification, he can point to the beginning of the dialogue, but he has still managed later in the dialogue to put it in the heads of pro-choice Catholics that their position might be justifiable by the Doctors of the Faith. God send us leaders who are both clever AND truthful!
Something has suddenly struck me.
Biden says he doesn't want to "impose" his judgment on others. But he only has one vote. How does he think that, if he changed his mind, he would be able to impose his views as law? Does he think he is secretly the Dictator Extraordinary, only hiding and withholding his autocratic power out of mercy?
On the other hand, if he is talking about the collective power of legislatures to vote for or against laws, what part of his judgment is so secular and civic that it can be trusted, and what part is so evil and oppressively religious that it cannot? Is he saying that his Jewish, Muslim, Hindu and Protestant compadres dare not say anything about issues affecting Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, and Protestant people?
SocraticPlatonist: I don't think thoughtful, measured reponses to misrepresentations of Church teaching or the obligations of faithful Catholics would offend anyone. Most all the responses to Pelosi were of this character. But a statement by an ecclesiastical authority that went beyond, or that could be (mis)interpreted as going beyond the pastoral sphere could be viewed as necessary meddling in politics. Or create sympathy for Biden among non-Catholics if it appeared he was being "bullied." Amen to your prayer: "Be ye therefore wise as serpents and simple as doves."
Maureen: Yes, I, too, find Biden's comments about not "imposing" his views on others perplexing. If that is how he feels, why did he become a politician? According to his reasoning, whenever he votes on any topic he is "imposing" his view. It seems Biden has a double-standard when the issue is abortion. Opposing abortion rights would be imposing his personal views, but supporting abortion rights is not. If Biden truly wanted avoid imposing his views on abortion, he would advocate the overruling of Roe and allow the states to determine whether abortion should be legal.
Oy veh,is right, when you have comments that say *ONLY IN THE MOST *EGRIGIOUS* CASES*!!! MURDERING BABIES IS EGRIGIOUS! DGS: PLEASE. You donot defend LIFE, INNOCENT babies, with your point of view. You are egrigiously offending Jesus. He would never be so casual about murder.
Dear "yikes,"
I've committed to many sins to even think about casting that first stone. You seem to feel quite qualified however. May God have mercy on me, but you have me wondering if Christ has not abandoned His Church by not giving us bishops like you who would so blithely use His Body and Blood as a threat and a weapon. Its strange that so few of them care about their duties to Him to do that. Its even stranger that those who felt compelled to do it did it so reluctantly, rarely and cautiously. I wonder why He entrusts the greatest authority and burdens to such humble men, while someone as certain of himself as you is stuck in an armchair instead of a cathedra. So silly of me to think carefulness, prudence and humility could have anything to do with running the Church. Of course, I guess I should be consoled that the gospels repeatedly show us that Jesus held self assured religious authorities in such contempt while spending so much time with tax collectors, prostitutes and even worse sinners like me and the bishops. Strange how those oh so certain of themselves authorities arranged His murder while people of my ilk, those taxers, hookers and such started worshiping Him. Oh well, I guess it is not for me to figure out.
Seriously "yikes," I hate abortion as much as you do. I'm just glad He gives the mitres to those who exercise their authority in humility, prudence and sober judgment. They should probably get around to banning some of the standouts, but God preserve us from fathers who lust to beat their children while holding teaching and correction in contempt.
Pray for me "yikes." I certainly will for you. We both need it.
Sorry for the sarcasm, but your big enough to take it.
JESUS entrusts because HE has given men the gift of free will: To do right or do nothing. JESUS would not just sit there and watch someone be murdered.People in authority have been given the responsibility to lead and do what is right.Simple.IF THE Church has always taught this and it has, leaders have been gravely in error to wait to 2008 to write such letters to politicians.
Is it too self assured to pull the fire alarm when the church is burning and tell everyone to exit so they will not burn to death or would JESUS just be cautious,prudent and humble.
Ike, thank you for making my point. CIC reflects the teaching of all the ancient churches. Obviously, Christ has abandoned the church and left it without leadership since for 2008 years.
Jesus would not stand by and watch a murder. He would do something effective to prevent it. Is there anyone who believes that denying communion will actually change the mind of any of these politicians? It would be hopelessly optimistic to think so. For the sake of arguement let us suppose that one legislator changes his position. Does that one vote change the situation? With the issue controlled largely by the courts, the answer is no. So, denying someone communion saves how many babies? If there were a snowman's chance in hell that telling Joe Biden not to go to communion would save a single child from the abortion industry, go for it. It will not happen. We should probably take action with our worst cases, like Pelosi for deliberately misrepresenting the Church's teaching, but wholesale examinations of voting records and policy statements followed by large scale bans will make a handful of self righteous guys feel like they are superior but will save not one life. There is no moral obligation to attempt the impossible and some good pastoral reasons to not try it.
"j," the church is not burning. We have withstood the gates of hell for a while now, and I think we are good for a bit longer. There are enough defunct heresies in our past to convince me that this is not the worst we have faced. Humility and prudence are virtues that the church commends to all and I seem to recall something about them and the effects of the Holy Spirit in confirmation. My point is that the role of the bishop is often likened to a father and we are called to love and respect them and their office. If we have to side with a bunch of armchair mitrehead wannabes who have lots of self righteousness and no responsibility or a bunch of real bishops on real cathedras and plenty of responsibility, it ain't difficult to figure out which side we should come down on.
I think that DGS has a good point. We can get so worked up over these situations (and not without reason) that we forget that the Church has weathered worse times; I'm no Church scholar, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out that it has weathered graver challenges than that posed by secularism. It's a history to be proud of.
If what the Bible tells us about gates of Hell not prevailing against it, we should be okay.
DGS...I did not mean literally the church is burning down.I believe Fr.Pavone used an exellent example of laws,society and church. Please listen to what Fr.Pavone has said. I heard him on EWTN and they rerun it all the time.He also has his own website and blog and you can get it there because, dgs, I did not help make your point!I agree with practically nothing that you write. And if you truely loved Jesus and His Church, you would understand the seriousness of saying what you say. We defend life, the Church and Jesus is the Life. I really don't believe you could be a Catholic if you do not care how much this offends the Sacred Heart of Jesus. And ofcourse, nothing can prevail against the Church.Jesus has already won and He has not abandoned His Church! His Church, His people, His Beloved are never abandoned by God. You need to find belief. And Yes, I do believe with holding communion will save lives.When reverence and prayer and submission to The Holy Spirit are obeyed and we worship in Spirit and in Truth, miracles happen.God moves mountains when we cooporate with faith standing on Truth and Love. Side with Jesus and don't offend Him anymore with your disobedient chatter.Ofcourse we pray and love our Bishops.Let them not give communion to heretics and dissentors.
j,
I had not expected so meassured a response, or one quite so personal. I appreciate the meassure, but be careful of the personal.
As to me, I am Catholic, in church every weekend, stretch my budget to send my daughter to Catholic school, have 16 years of Catholic education and the BA from DeSales University to prove it, have done the March for Life in DC and contribute to the local pregnancy center and Gabriel Project (and I make rosaries which I send to overseas missions, to boot). With respect, I have the bona fides on this issue to be given a respectful hearing. Want to know what I think on abortion? Read the debate I am involved in at Catholics in the Public Square. Long post and long comments. You'll need to read all the comments to make sense of it.
http://thepublicsquare.blogspot....arah-
palin.html
I am as anti-abortion as you are. I agree that some of the politicians who are unorthodox on this should be refused communion, but I am also weary of the self righteousness in so many com boxes and the open contempt for bishops from the holier than thous. In truth, the hatred shown to bishops by so many people on this issue rivals the disrespect shown by some of the pro-abort pols. (That is not directed specificly at you, j. You have not shown that here, but you know as well as I do that it's all over Catholic com boxes.) Obviously you do not believe it, but it is possible to be a good Catholic and think that a bishop is still a good bishop if his pastoral practice consists of something other than "kick ass and take names."
"And if you truely loved Jesus and His Church, you would understand the seriousness of saying what you say." Careful who you use that line against. Your complaint is that there are so, so many bishops out there saying the same thing. The logical extension of your swipe at me is that the bishops who say the same thing do not love Jesus and His Church either. The sin upon your head if that is what you really mean.
Frank Pavone is a good man and a priest who is a credit to his collar. What I have advocated here is prudence, good judgment, respect for legitimate church authority and humility before criticizing the men to whom he has pledged "respect and obedience." His pastoral judgment may lead him to a different conclusion than what I think prudent, but I will gladly have him judge my counsel of virtues against the arm chair bishops and the open contempt they so often show the real ones at this site and others.
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