AmericanPapist Comments
"We are asking our supporters to join us this Sunday to keep our parishes from becoming partisan battlegrounds in this election."
Really? Can you really say that with a straight face?
For what it's worth, the TIPP poll has McCain leading among Catholics 47% to 42% with 11% undecided. That's pretty good. It's just the reverse among independents, though: 40% McCain, 47% Obama, and 13% independent; the undecideds would have to break heavily for McCain to make a big difference.
But overall, Obama has had a pretty stable lead in the 4% to 5% range. Eight percent remain undecided--assuming stability otherwise, McCain needs 5 of those 8 points (62.5%) to eek out a popular vote win, and that says nothing about the electoral college breakdown.
Man, I hate close elections. The folks at Tums are lovin' though, I bet.
Kyle, that passage was from the Obama-supporting groups. I think your question should be, Can THEY really say that with a straight face? Because you're right, making a parish into a partisan battleground is no way to prevent a parish from becoming a partisan battleground. But that's liberal reasoning for you.
Any group who puts stuff on my vehicle automatically loses my support--if I even bother to read it, which is rare. If you don't have the confidence to try and convince me to your cause face-to-face, then you probably don't have a good argument to make. Don't put a flier on my windshield. As the brilliant late Mitch Hedberg said, "When someone hands you a flier, they're really saying, 'Here. You throw this away.'"
I disagree with Nate. Flyers can be immensely helpful. I'm always greatful to receive a right to life flyer which explains who their endorsed candidates are. With the advent of the Internet, I can easily look it up for myself now, but plenty of voters aren't that tech savvy. Additionally, if someone gives me something that's obviously trash, of course I'll simply throw it away.
Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good is overstepping its bounds by getting involved in this area. I can understand that a bishop wants to control the information being distributed on his property, but it's also a bit ridiculous that they prevent the Catholic laity from engaging fellow Catholics with their political viewpoint on Church property. Pope Benedict, in Deus Caritas Est, specifically mentions that it is the laity's role to engage in politics. And yet, when we try to do this on Church property, the Church itself restrains us.
Regardless, Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good should not interfere.
The Church has enough to do without monitoring people from their congregation for these so-called catholics who sell them down the river at every opportunity they can.
Oh, don't get me wrong, Boethius. I think what they're trying to do is bogus. Trying to restrict free speech is heinous to me unless there are very special circumstances. I'm just saying I can't stand people leaving stuff on my car. I would much prefer that they are standing in the parking lot waiting for me to come out and hand me the flyer directly rather than do some stealth raid of the parking lot. The latter is extremely irritating to me.
People leaving stuff on a car is not freedom of speech. A car is private property and only the owner has a right to it. Shopping malls prosecute people for doing that under a charge of criminal trespass to property.
Point taken, but let's be real: this group's agenda is the suppression of election literature and not the protection of private property. Any claims to the contrary would be disingenuous. I find this effort to be more pathetic than actually leaving flyers on windshields.
Look, I'm not a big fan of flyers-under-my-windshield-wipers . . .
. . . but enlisting ushers or other parishioners to confiscate them is pretty silly.
And, anyway, sometimes people put coupons for Dunkin' Donuts under my windshield wiper . . . and I'm all for that!
I would, however, politely ask any leafleteers to stick around and clean up the inevitable litter after Mass.
do the literature drops
counter this HARD, there's no valid reason for catholics to be voting for obama
Considering that this alarm was sounded by Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good and that it will most likely be Catholics who are voting for Obama that will be monitoring the parking lots, it may be a good thing for several reasons:
1) These Catholics will actually set foot on church property on a day other than Easter or Christmas;
2) They'll be outside instead of hearing Mass, so therefore they won't get a chance to commit sacrilege by receiving the Blessed Sacrament in their states of mortal sin (for being pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage, pro-women clergy, and who knows how many heresies they agree with).
3) The parish priest(s) may actually have a teaching opportunity to these barely visible Catholics.
It's not so bad, you see?
The other good thing, they have stated that they will not remove any materials approved by the local bishop. Well, well, well. Here's a golden opportunity. That's about 100 dioceses that can legitimately post recent bishop's statements on windshields and the Obamanazis won't be able to get their greasy hands on them.
I don't mind literature on my windshield. Over the years, I've never seen any literature promote one candidate over another. The literature always tells us where each of the candidates stand on the abortion issue, which would be of great concern to Christians, and that is why churches get the literature.
As Ann Landers said, "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen." Catholics in Alliance sounds very pro-abortion, or why would they care? The only "Christians" who find this material offensive, are pro-abortion "Christians", because they can't stand the truth getting out about their favorite pro-abortion candidate. Again, being pro-life, I don't mind learning where the candidates stand.
I also don't mind getting Domino's pizza coupons, Dunkin Donut coupons, etc., so it's all good!
Legally, I believe that once the literature is on the car, it becomes the property of the car owner, and it is unlawful to remove it unless you own the vehicle. Catholics in Alliance should NOT advise their people to remove the literature from the windshields.
Brownshirt tactics, with a twist. Like the ushers are going to monitor the parking lot for a group of liberal twits trying to swing the election for a man who promised his first act as president would be to kill more babies (freedom of choice act). These people are living in La La Land. The ushers would probably help put the flyers under the wiper arm.
I actually think it is a relatively good idea but will more than likely be badly implemented.
I'd like an election-free zone right about now.
I don't want my Church to become another campaign spot.
What do you think about this? Do you take the side of Catholics in Alliance or do you think it's fair for other groups to try to get their message out?
No. I take the side of the Church, and just like the Temple was desecrated by treating it like a marketplace, so too is it wrong to treat parishes like political arenas. The only ones who have authority to distribute anything on parish property are those formally attached to the Church -- not outside groups of any persuasion.
Just to be clear, the following is the authoritative policy for the Diocese of Arlington --
From the Office of the Chancellor
Political Activity at Parishes - As the November elections approach, all parishioners should be aware of the following policies of the Diocese of Arlington with regard to political activity at parishes and other Church facilities and events:
-- Distribution of partisan campaign literature (e.g. leaflets, bumper stickers, etc.) on Church property IS NOT PERMITTED.
-- Distribution of any voter guides or other election-related materials, other than those prepared by Bishop Loverde, the Virginia Catholic Conference or the USCCB, also is NOT PERMITTED on Church property. This prohibition includes any of the “Voter Guides”, “Platforms”, etc., prepared by various groups, whether they claim to be within or outside of the Catholic Church.
Do not bring such materials onto Church property for distribution. If you discover anyone distributing such materials, please inform your pastor or a parish staff member.
A complete discussion of our diocesan policies is available online at the Virginia Catholic Conference, www.vacatholic.org. If you become aware of any violation of these policies, please contact the Office of the Chancellor, Catholic Diocese of Arlington, 200 N. Glebe Rd., Ste 914, Arlington, VA 22203.
And just to be clear for the record, Bishop Loverde has been very vocal about our moral responsibilities in this election.
The pro-life flyers on the cars has been proven to help bring in as much as 1-2% extra for prolife candidates. In a year like this it will be vital to nudge that extra vote to the right people running for office.
The reality is that church lots are seen as semi-public property by the courts because there is an implied invitation to anyone to come on them, to go to a service, etc. Therefore there is a freedom of speech issue here.
Pro-life groups have done this for over thirty years and the Church has not lost it's status with the IRS, because they aren't organizing the drop. Private groups from outside are. They don't ask permission because to do so makes the pastor/church responsible and that is not the goal.
The reason they like to just slip them on your car is that it takes less time and with only a handful of volunteers there are a lot of churches to cover in one morning! Plus they don't want to get in any arguments. They want to give folks something to think about before they vote. For some of those who see the flyers it can give them the reason they've been looking for to do the right thing in the booth. It pricks people's conscience.
This so called Catholic group has a deadly agenda, To silence the pro-life message in a critical election. They don't want Catholics to consider the truth about how pro-abortion Obama is. We must not allow them to succeed in crushing free speech.
I think monitoring the parking lot and enlisting ushers to chase people off is a little extreme. LOL
We have free speech and parking lots are seen by the courts as being open. I am organizing it for two parishes.It isn't in the church building so the analogy with he moneychangers is crazy. We are also not selling anything. We are laity doing our job to be leaven in society. The only people who are offended are those who support pro abort Democrats (no offense to the hypothetical pro-life Democrats- Theoretically there could be some of course). How can a voter guide be offensive? It reminds me of the border guards into East Germany who would confiscate any Western newspaper or magazine found in the car with their machine guns pointing at you! It is absurd that any reasonable person would take offense or forbid it. The politicians send all kinds of unsolicited mailings to your house which are not often very informative. Noone is getting excited about all of them coming to the house.
Just pass the sheet on to one of your neighbors, if you don't need it! It isn't obscene like the many magazines in the grocery store!
In my state, it's illegal for anyone other than you, a police officer or a parking enforcement officer to put something on your windshield wipers.
I really can't believe they are so worried that everyone is so wishy washy. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
I had not heard about the leaflets. It seems to be a waste of time to me. I do not think anyone will really be won over by a piece of paper two days before the election. And how many Catholics do they plan on reaching in church parking lots? Mass attendance is not that great.
I don't think it's a waste of time at all, in my opinion. I agree with the commentator who said that it does give some folks something to think about before they vote, that for those attending church this Sunday who are still undecided, it can give them that final nudge they've been looking for to vote pro-life. For those undecideds, leaflets can prick people's conscience if they take the few minutes to read them. There may not be that many people this late into the election but it's still worth it to try and persuade every single last voter to go out and vote for life and help swing this election away from the peddlers of death.
I don't think anyone should be using a Church parking lot to distribute flyers, regardless of what they say.
I spent a Saturday evening this summer removing flyers for a cleaning service from all the cars during Mass at my summer assignment. I find it offensive.
The Church is a place of worship and the parking lot is neither an advertising opportunity nor a political battlefield.
Cleveland Right to Life left a "Life News" 2008 Election Edition, and included an insert from Catholic Answers Action, on the cars in our parish parking lot last Sunday.
Thank God.
We certainly aren't getting a lot of clear, courageous guidance from our Diocese.
I don't like it when any group puts a political piece on my car - while at Mass. A Church becomes a partisan battleground when a group places a political piece on your windshield during mass. I don't care what group does it. It shouldn't happen. We have Faithful Citizenship. I don't need some PAC telling me how to form my conscious.
To answer your question: Groups have had months to get their message out (to Catholics) and if they haven't figured out a way (wedge issues aren't working this year) to get the Catholic vote with just a few days until Election Day, they don't deserve it.
"Wedge issues" is that supposed to mean "The issue of protecting the innocent from abortion?"
It is certainly tragic that many fail to realize that the "conscience" they are following as they choose to vote for a pro-abortion candidate has been malformed, if it is in fact leading them to vote for a pro-abortion candidate when viable options are available to the contrary.
Seeing proportionate reasons where no bishops them. I'll choose to stick with the bishops and defend the unborn.
My parish has had a "no flyer" policy for many years. What does happens is that people will stand on the sidewalk at the exits and hand out flyers as people drive out.
People have the option of taking them if they want, or just ignoring them.
I agree with the 'rules' that Thomas put in the original post. The parking lot of the parish church should NOT be used for political activists, especially these so-called 'catholic' groups!
Man, I am SOOOOO TIRED of all this electioneering!
Mary Immaculate, PLEASE PRAY for our nation!
Problem is we have a legal right to do so. I suppose you don't find baby killing offensive, but leafletting is? the objectors don't make any sense. Where is the offense and outrage over 50 million of our fellow citizens murdered in cold blood? Where is the outrage that Catholics are crucifying our Lord again by voting for Obama?
LvB:
Hear, hear! Defending the unborn is "offensive"? What is wrong with these so called Catholics?
Sophie Scholl was put to death for distributing leaflets criticizing Nazi policy at her "politically correct" university in Munich. I guess these same Catholics would find her "offensive" as well.
I so agree with LvB. It's a piece of paper why are you offended? If you don't agree with the message, throw it away! Just like the millions of babies lives that will be thrown away under an OBAMA presidency! We have one last weekend to make people think about this life and death issue. I for one will not miss this last chance to move mountains for His littlest ones.
The Pro-life movement has been getting the word out for over a year about Obama, why would they give up now? If just a few more people are inspired to vote for life by this activity that may be all we need. Races, Senate, etc, all over the USA are going to hang by small margins. We can be that margin of Victory.
I am sorry if a piece of paper bothers you on your car, but, could that be your conscience talking? Are you helping the pro-life group in your town yet? If not why not? They are fighting to protect your life too, you know!
Another thing they were able to say with a straight face:
"The extreme right will stop at nothing to distort church teaching for political gain." Catholics United
Problem is we have a legal right to do so.
Problem is that you have neither a legal right, nor a moral right, nor a Church right to come onto the private property of the Church, including parishes, to engage in advocacy, political or otherwise. Period.
The laws have been interperated by most lawyers dealing with free speech issues to recognize that Church lots are semi public places beacuse everyone is invited to go to them. The Church building is private property and so no advocacy can take place inside the building.
Thankfully many priests have become braver and are giving excellent homilies on pro-life issues and the need to vote to protect God's little ones. Still many have not, so this is one way to get information about all the candidates, not just president to the right audience.
This kind of effort on the church lots have gone on for 30 years and the church has not lost it's tax status because they aren't organizing it. Out side groups are not the responsibility of the churches so they aren't seen as guilty of electionering by the IRS.
Pro-abortion pro Obama "catholics" are happy to restrict our access to the lots because they don't want to see the Catholic vote influenced fro LIFE! I am afraid the weakness of too many of the bishops will let them hold the day!
Pray for this country. Pray for the Church.
I am trying to get the link for this story, as someone just posted it at another site:
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Here is a report from four more students from Franciscan University -- Natalie Brown, Emily Espinosa, Monica Brown, and Alice Sniffen -- who spent the morning handing out pro-life literature in parish parking lots, or, at least, they tried.
It makes you wonder how young people stay in the Catholic Church when they are treated this way for defending the Church's own teaching.
St. Rose Parish, 48 East Main St. Girard, OH 44420
We arrived for the 9 AM mass and Rev. Agostino, S.J., yelled over to us that we were trespassing on private property and for us to get off or that he would call the police.
We walked over to him and politely told him what we were doing and why. We told him that life is paramount in this election, and we wanted to help inform voters on the stances of the two presidential candidates on issues such as partial birth abortion.
He told us, “The parishioners are smart enough.” I respectfully encouraged him to discuss the moral issues of this election with his parishioners. He told me, “Don’t tell me how to do my job.”
After lit-dropping several other parishes, we returned again to St. Rose for the 10:30 Mass. We decided, out of respect, to tell Father what we were doing again. We rang the doorbell at the rectory three times and no one answered.
We walked away and saw another priest, later identified as Rev. James Korda, looking at us through the window of the rectory.
Realizing that we had seen him, Rev. Korda came to the door. He told us that Father had warned us once to leave and that he was going to call the police. I tried to explain our mission to him, but all I was able to get out was “but Father” before he exclaimed, “Don’t ‘but’ me!” I told him we had a right to be there, and he retorted back that he was going to call the police for trespassing. I tried once again to speak, but he interjected, “Do you mind?” before slamming the rectory door in our faces.
A police officer, Captain Jeffery Palmer, of the Gerard Police Department, arrived a few minutes later. He told us that we would have to get off the church property after being asked to leave by a church official. I asked him if we could stand on the public sidewalk in front of the Church doors and hand out the pro-life literature. He told me that we had a right to do so as long as there were no complaints about us blocking the sidewalk.
He warned us, however, that if there were any complaints that he would have to come back and force us to leave.
Monica Brown, another pro-life student activist from Franciscan, who was assigned to lit-drop other Catholic Churches, was on her way back to Steubenville when she drove past St. Rose. She didn’t realize that she was at the same parish where I had already experienced conflicts.
Just as she noticed that the cars had already been lit-dropped, she heard
continued:
Monica Brown, another pro-life student activist from Franciscan, who was assigned to lit-drop other Catholic Churches, was on her way back to Steubenville when she drove past St. Rose. She didn’t realize that she was at the same parish where I had already experienced conflicts.
Just as she noticed that the cars had already been lit-dropped, she heard a loud shout, “Turn around and go the other way,” from Rev. Steven Agostino, S.J.
She then noticed that Rev. Agostino had a trashcan and was pulling the literature off the cars and throwing it away. She got out and told Father that he was not allowed to take the pro-life literature off the car because it becomes the private property of the owner of the car. Rev. Agostino responded, “It is not. You don’t know what you are talking about. Get off my parking lot.” She tried to interject that he was wrong when he replied, “You’re too young, and you don’t know enough to wipe your snot! Now, get out of my parking lot!”
It turns out Rev. Steven Agostino, S.J., has been named senior development officer in the Office of Institutional Advancement at The University of Scranton. Fr. Agostino is responsible for coordinating the University's fund-raising activities directed toward significant and major donors in the northeast and southeast regions of the United States.
St. William Parish, 5411 Mahoning Ave. NW Champion, OH 44483
A woman who claimed to work in the St. Williams rectory said that Fr. Balash had seen the pro-life literature from an earlier Mass and was angered by it. She told Emily Espinola, the vice president of Students for Life at Franciscan, Father felt it would be “offensive” to some people. She told them that she would have to call the police if they stayed. Emily asked if Fr. Balash promotes the importance of voting pro-life. She was told, “He lets people vote how they want.”
Atheling-
I am at least encouraged by the currently young generation of Catholics being so committed to the unborn, especially in the face of so much opposition.
I feel sorry for those priests, though. How will they answer when the Lord asks them to defend their opposition to the defenders of life? And what of their flock?
As Lili explained, we do have the right to put literature on car windshields in church parking lots until we are told to leave by an official representative of the church. You must then leave, but you have the RIGHT to leave, and if they stop you, they are in violation of the law.
Nathan, Bender, you might not like it, but that's exactly what free speech is about, tolerating political views you don't like, in mildly inconvenient ways.
But the people at Steubenville who didn't leave when asked were in violation of the law, too.
You get some very interesting conversations on the sidewalk out front. Anyone voting for Tom Davis' replacement tomorrow might want to find out how Gerry Connelly behaved at the police diver's funeral last week.
(Hint for dignitaries: if you're not included in the list of dignitaries welcomed at a funeral, because you didn't show up until halfway through, it actually makes things worse if you wave your arms like you're helping a plane land so that the emcee will notice you and mention your name after all. Really. Ask Miss Manners.)
It's all very simple really.
God's law: "Thou shalt not kill."
Bishop's law: "Thou shalt not leaflet."
Again,
God's law "Thou shalt not kill."
Bishop's law: "Thou shalt not leaflet."
hmm....?
Support your local pro-life group, please.
Reading about the ordeals of the pro-life students from Steubenville made me both sad and angry.
Sad, that the students were were treated rudely and roughly; angry, that it was the priests who treated them that way.
St. Ignatius of Loyola, slap those 'sons' of your alongside the head!
Jeannette, where did you get the idea that I believe free speech is anything but tolerating opposing views? You must have missed where I wrote, "Trying to restrict free speech is heinous to me..." In fact, I've taken criticism on this very blog for supporting free speech. I'm against abortion just like most of you. And I said that leaflets should be allowed to be distributed. I just don't like them on my car. I don't know how that was difficult to comprehend from what I wrote.
Here is the link:
http://insidecatholic.com/Joomla...=4812&
Itemid=80
Those Jesuits are not of the Society of Jesus, they belong to the Society of Judas.
"(wedge issues aren't working this year)"
What is a 'wedge issue'? Abortion?
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