AmericanPapist Comments
Granholm. Not Sabelius. Different state, different pro-abortion Catholic, different bishop. Same story. Bp. Mengeling was indifferent to Granholm's promotion of abortion and political exploitation of her Catholic identity. We'll soon know whether Bp. Boyea is willing to obey Canon 915.
What would you expect the new Bishop to do re: the Gov?
Habent episcopam!
probably episcopum
If the bishop were to do something about the gov, it seems this would be as good a time as any to do it. She can't be re-elected because of term-limits iirc, so any charge of political sabotage will ring hollow.
My sons have served with him at the Extraordinary Mass in Detroit and they all said hooray when they heard about him coming to Lansing.
Oh my God, a Catholic Bishop for Lansing who actually celebrates the TLM, whatever is Benedict thinking? Did he get Bishop Trautperson's permission to put an orthodox bishop in charge? Congratulations to the people of Lansing. Tom
Bishop was my teacher and spiritual director at Sacred Heart in Detroit. He would celebrate Mass in Latin for us on Saturday mornings. I'm thrilled he's coming to the Diocese of Lansing.
Andrew,
yes, the Latin is better the second time.
Hope Lansing's new shepherd is a good one!
While I want to keep the focus on Lansing, I would like to address an earlier comment. I can't say I pay too close of attention to the matter to speak authoritatively, but I do know that Archbishop Naumann and Governor Sebelius have had their share of rows in the past over her support for abortion. I know that's probably not good enough for hardliners, but the portrayal of it being the same story of a bishop ignoring Church teaching in the Archdiocese of Kansas City in Kansas isn't accurate. What's the latest on Majerus receiving communion, by the way?
I went to a Mass in the Lansing diocese, celebrated by the vocations director. The ciborium was a large glass potato chip bowl and the Blood was in a clear lemonade pitcher. I wondered who would be willing to take vows in order to be the snack-master every Sunday. The way the Hosts were treated, it was obvious that no one on the altar (and there was a crowd!) believed in the Real Presence. Hope this guy does a little better.
Nathan, did he excommunicate Sebelius? If not, he's just another handwringing bishop causing further scandal himself. If I were a young Catholic unmarried, pregnant girl, I would not take him seriously and just go ahead and have the abortion if that was the way I was leaning to begin with because, after all, it was not important enough for him not to go to the mat with Sebelius. Tom
Sounds like another good pick. The farm team continues to improve while the old heads retire apace.
I don't envy those who will have to clean up the mess left by generation Jadot. I pray that God will give them the strength and energy to do so.
Viva il Papa!
Jeannette -
I would be astounded if Bp. Boyea does not clean up those sorts of things. I have attended Masses that he has celebrated; and in fact, he is the only celebrant, including bishops, who has improvised putting the paten containing the other Hosts under my chin when he saw that I was prepared to receive on the tongue. That to me suggests a strong belief in and reverence for the Eucharist. I cannot envision him tolerating the kind of behavior you described.
TJM, Bp. Mengeling has celebrated Pontifical High Mass on several occasions in Flint...
Kasia,
I'm glad to hear that, because I might have to go back to Davison someday. The vocations director also sat in the presider's chair while the sacristan took all the "dishes" around back so I bet he didn't purify the vessels either.
Yet another Bishop chosen who has a history of priestly/seminarian formation!
His acceptance of the TLM is music to my ears!
Except on the west coast, the Pope's choices for Bishops have been a sign of hope thus far.
"The way the Hosts were treated, it was obvious that no one on the altar (and there was a crowd!) believed in the Real Presence."
Jeanette, may I encourage you to not judge a priest's belief in the Real Presence by your subjective experience of one Mass? I am comfortable in making this encouragement because in this case, what seemed "obvious" to you is quite untrue. I type this in part so that you and any reader, with a desire for the truth, may not wrongly form a poor opinion of those involved in your claim.
I also think that this article
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/...then/
04757a.htm
might also be helpful.
May God bless you and all of His Church.
...and with that post, I do not wish to accuse you of any guilt (I notice the irony of accusing someone guilty of accusing someone else to be guilty), but provide it for your consideration.
God bless.
Name, with all due respect, it's a reasonable inference on Jeanette's part. I certainly would wonder what the priest really believes if he celebrates the Mass that way. He obviously doesn't care one whit about Church law and regulations surrounding the celebration of the Eucharist. Per Sacramentum Caritatis, he is in grave error and is committing scandal. If I had been there I would have called him out following Mass for his blatant disregard for the rubrics and would have asked him if this was "all about him" rather than the Lord and His Church. Tom
CCC 2478: "To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor's thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way"
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3...cc/
p3s2c2a8.htm
The wisdom of the Church is shown in this situation. Rather than running to false conclusions from one's perception and assumptions about one case, heeding the above would lead to a true conclusion about the situation.
Name,
It was a sad conclusion on my part after observing the way everyone behaved: the way the Eucharists were scooped out of the potato chip bowl and flung into the individual ciboria, the way the lemonade pitcher was casually carried around, that the diocesan vocations director did not purify the vessels after Communion, the general attitude on the altar, all led me to seriously doubt that anyone up there believed in the Real Presence. I have seen the Eucharist treated with varying degrees of reverence in my years of being Catholic. You weren't there; I was. I also heard the opinion of the parishioners I was visiting there. Their comments made it clear that they don't believe in the Real Presence, either. ("Oh, it doesn't matter, God is in everything") This is a problem.
Jeannette,
That is strange, because I have been at several masses celebrated by him, and never came away with that conclusion, nor would I expect that based on the few conversations I have had with him. I must admit that I honestly don't remember what the vessels were made of (or whether he purified them after communion), but I doubt that in any situation he has considered them to be a potato chip bowl or lemonade pitcher. Is it possible that he was a guest to that parish and was only using the vessels provided for him?
Jeanette,
Do you mean the current Diocese of Lansing Director of Seminarians? When was this? Several times, when I was discerning the priesthood, I have met and spoke with the priest who has been in that position the past few years. He is a very holy priest, and I am certain he has a very deep reverence for the Blessed Sacrament. I know many of our seminarians, devout young men themseleves, who highly esteem him.
I am very pleased that our new Bishop has experience with vocations work. Our diocese has had a surge in vocations in recent years, and our seminarians enjoyed a nice relationship with Bishop Mengeling, and I hope with Bishop Boyea it will be even better.
There is an interesting article from 2001 written by Bishop Boyea that appeared in First Things Magazine on the priesthood. He took on Fr. Donald Cozzens.
See my blogpost for an excerpt and the link to the main article.
Jeanette,
The lack of belief among some Catholics in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist is sad. And I agree that I was not at the Mass. Nevertheless, I think it is generally unfair to declare based on one situational observation (particularly this one) that a priest has no belief in the Real Presence.
In the case of any particular Mass, many situations could be the case with a priest. He could be visiting and have no control over the vessels used. Many things could be the case. It is not within our ability to know all of the possible factors that could be involved. I think the above factor is a quite good one for the case you mentioned. I think it is rash to judge a person's belief here, particularly as one should "interpret insofar as possible his neighbor's thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way". It is quite possible to do so here (which shouldn't be surprising, since it is the case that he believes). I suggest doing so, for the sake of truth, and in support of the good name of the undeservedly accused.
May God bless you and all of His Church.
Jeanette,
You obviously had a limited and singular experience, and have made a universal absolute judgement about a priest who is deeply in love with the Eucharistic Lord. This is a grave logical error at the very least, because I do not think you had a mere slip of grammar, but actually think this man's reverence to the Eucharistic Lord is wanting. The "genius of suspicion" is not something you want to fall into, because it is used by atheists way too much.
Yes, the vocations director was visiting Davison. Yes, he used a large glass potato chip-type bowl and what looked like a glass lemonade pitcher. Yes, he sat in his chair while others carted the vessels to the back to be purified. Are you all actually arguing with me about what I saw, about my impression? If you were there, you could disagree with me about the general air of reverence or lack thereof, but if not, you really can't argue with me here. I'm so sorry to hear that my words make you unhappy, but I am more sorry that the entire entourage on the altar that day gave the impression that they had no reverence for the Eucharist, and given my hosts' casual comments about the Eucharist, I fear that other parishioners at St John's may have similar opinions too. If one has reverence for the Eucharist and one is on the altar, one should be displaying it, in order to encourage reverence for the Eucharist among the faithful, and especially the not-so-faithful.
I will say that in a previous visit, before the Vatican reminded priests that they're supposed to purifying vessels, a team of ladies "did the dishes" after Communion while the pastor sat in his chair watching them. At least this time, they took it around back.
I suspect that if the vocations director really wanted a ciborium made of precious metals, there would have been one there. We were very unimpressed with him, including my son who thinks he might have a vocation to the priesthood.
"Are you all actually arguing with me about what I saw, about my impression?"
Arguing with what you saw: no.
Arguing with your impression: depends what you mean by that.
If your impression means: "I felt there was a lack of reverence", then no. I can't say what you felt or sensed.
If your impression is: "This priest obviously did not believe in the Real Presence", then yes, I am arguing this point. Because that's not a sense impression. That's a judgement, based on reasons.
It turns out that those who the person better know that it was a false conclusion. Seems to show the wisdom of the Church in advising one to interpret others' situations favorably.
I could go on for awhile, but I think keeping it short will help focus discussion.
May God bless you and all of His Church.
Ooh, I found the same potato chip bowl in a picture of Mahoneyfest over at closedcafeteria, but the lemonade pitcher I saw wasn't so rounded as those are. The ones in the picture are more like sangria pitchers.
Name, you're babbling. What's important here is that the vocations director failed to convince my family that he had any reverence for the Eucharist. My son in discernment agreed. If you think the problem here is mine, I just can't help you. Thank you for your interest in my immortal soul.
If you are willing to obstinately hold your negative judgement, in the face of the testimony of those who know better, and attempt to spread that falsehood to others over the Internet, then that is obviously your choice.
But are you open at all to the possibility that you have judged wrongly?
If you were, you might be willing to accept the possibility that he had nothing to do with the vessels used, and the possibliity that he, another priest, or a deacon purified the vessels after Mass.
May God bless you and all of His Church.
Name, Now you're being completely ridiculous. You're telling me that others know better than I do, what I saw and experienced at this Mass? Are you disputing that the Body and Blood were treated casually on the altar at this Mass? That the celebrant didn't purify the vessels but sat in his chair while the vessels went back to the sacristy? I was appalled after attending this Mass, and the problem is mine? I said in the first place that I was visiting a parish. I never claimed to know him well. If he didn't think it was important to exhibit his famous respect for the Eucharist during his visit to Davison last summer, great, but he left us with a poor impression, including a young man who thinks he has a vocation to the priesthood; this young man was not thrilled with the idea of taking vows to be snack-master. I'm glad to hear that he doesn't always leave such a poor impression. I hope Bishop Boyea cleans things up; I hate always being the only one kneeling after Communion when I attend Mass in the Lansing Diocese.
Congratulations to Bishop Boyea for getting out of Detroit. I'm in Detroit for the weekend for the first time, and I'm pretty certain this place is the Baghdad of America. I checked into the hotel this morning and the lady at the front desk said not to stray too far from the hotel at night. Apparently, this place has its own Green Zone. Good thing Catholics believe in guardian angels! Sure, it might be harsh to judge based on first impressions, but the people I've talked to that frequently come here on business say it's more than justified. Boyea had to have been thrilled to leave this place.
Nathan, your condescending comments about the city within which I work are neither original nor edifying. Bp. Boyea, and the seminary in which we both worked, has made a stand against the dyfunction that is Detroit, and why? Because Christ is here, too.
Instead of insulting our efforts, consider praying for them.
Wow. Didn't mean to touch such a raw nerve. I usually roll along with the comments made about my home, but I guess we've got vastly different personalities. I actually came into the place with an open mind, but when the first native I meet is warning me about the city, that's a bit disconcerting as a visitor. As I explore the place (in daylight, of course), maybe I'll form a different opinion. I am looking forward to going over to Windsor tomorrow. I hear that's a neat place, and who doesn't love Canadians?? Any other suggestions for fun things to do to kill time on the American side of the river would be appreciated.
Deal with it Nathan. You said, quote, "Boyea had to have been thrilled to leave this place." That's is belittling to the years he spent working here, as if it were all some sort of fraud on his part, and ours, for trying to work under extremely difficult circumstances. We don't need some weekend fly-in-fly-out to remind us how hard things are here.
Raw nerve? Baloney. Smart mouth more like it, and the reaction your flippant attitude to this situation deserves.
Where did I accuse the efforts of anyone as being fraudulent? I was told by one of your own that the city isn't a very safe place to journey around. I'm quite confident that lots of people are trying to make things better in this place. Until those efforts bear fruit, though, it seems like all criticism of this city, including the criticism of those who live here, is warranted. I don't blame you for not liking the criticism, but my original comments were supposed to be taken lightly, not as a personal affront to your honor. Have a good weekend.
You just don't get it, Nathan, whoever you are. Your comments about Detroit could not have meant less to me, for reasons that should be obvious. But you also asserted what you assumed must have been Bp. Boyea's attitude toward being Detroit, and twice attributed to him your feelings about leaving Detroit. That's what I reacted to. Boyea, whom I sure you have never met, spent decades of his adult life working here (and we don't need you to tell us it difficult); you imply that he must be happy to leave. Says you.
Look, you're either going to acknowledge a wrong and apologize for attributing a secret glee to Boyea for being transfered out his troubled birthplace, or you're not.
Nathan was wrong, IMO, was to say that "Until those efforts bear fruit, though, it seems like all criticism of this city, including the criticism of those who live here, is warranted."
What? The idea that good people can't live in a city which has problems without others criticizing them for it is a sad one. Where's the logic in that? The Evil One is lord of the evil on this earth, and there is plenty to go around. Please don't blame the innocent for the guilty.
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