AmericanPapist Comments
First: WTF??
Second: Well ... He is a Dominican, after all. To be sure, when it comes to liturgical abuse, the OPs are the leaders of the pack.
Third: WTF??
Anon, what are you basing #2 on? I would think, fi, Jesuits hold that crown.
It's the nightclub Mass. Horrid!
The previous Anonymous poster's comment casts all Dominicans in an unfair light. I attend a college run by the Dominican friars and in my experience they have been very orthodox and celebrated every Mass I attended with great respect and reverence.
Was this atrocity done in a Church or some make-shift building?
OMG!!!! I am so apologizing to folks in the USA and their pathetic attempts at desecrating the Eucharistic celebration. Austrians know how to blaspheme!!
Thad - a church it appears, though one would hardly recognize it.
Brian - well, there's always LA's yearly congress.
Who gave the Cardinal the "go ahead" on this one? As a traditionalist I have attended a few "modern" masses. I felt uncomfortable. If I was at this "mass" I proably would have left. What was that? I understand that keeping the youth in the church, but that was crazy. Did anyone notice the look of utter confusion & disorientation on the Cardinal's face? I'd love to see the look on our Holy Father's face when he sees this.
I think I am sick.
WHY is a Cardinal that we expect so much more from doing this?!
That music was completely lame. This is not the nightclub Mass because no nightclub could have music like that and stay open for half a night. More like a Mass for geeks. Well the bishop of vienna does not have to worry about being taken seriously anymore.
Wow! I thought the Clown Mass was bad, but this is the worst I've seen...And that a Cardinal was involved brings the scandal to new heights!!
And, it's too bad the tye-died vestments are still around...I had hoped they were burned immediately after the Holy Father came to town.
This is not news to me. I have read of him participating in similarly gravely abusive Masses. I was never rooting for him to become Pope because of them. 'By all their fruits you shall know them' is my Leitfaden for ascertaining orthodoxy.
So maybe in Austria the Liturgy of the Hours for this past Sunday would look something like this:
Week I, Sunday, Evening Prayer I
Psalmody
Antiphon 1: Like a balloon, Lord, let my prayer rise up to you.
Psalm 141: 1-9
A prayer when in danger
An angel stood before the face of God, a bunch of balloons in hand. The colorful balloons soaring aloft were the prayers of God's people on earth (Revelation 8:4).
I have called to you, Lord; hasten to help me!
Hear my voice when I cry to you,
Let my prayer arise before you like a balloon,
the raising of my hands like an evening oblation. . . .
St. Pius X is somersaulting in his grave. The 'operatic style' church music he denounced was at least dignified.
If the Church is just another disco club, it will survive for shorter time than the average life span of night clubs in Copenhagen where I live - which is about twelve months.
Bearing in mind that the music is considerably worse and the amount of served alcohol diminutive...
OMG. . this is really bad! And I thought the loud drums at teen mass these days are bad! But I guess once we give way to drums and pop style music in church . . we slowly give way to situations like this too. I get goosebumps just thinking about this mass!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh my! Can somebody please pinch me?! Schonborn? Who's next? Arinze?
If I recall this is not the first time Cardinal Schoenborn has been in hot water. according to an article on may 2006 of the new oxford review Cardinal Schoenborn also seemed to give the nod of approval to a valentine's day blessing which also blessed openly homosexual couples.
http://www.newoxfordreview.org/n...-notes-
goodguys
When one substitutes "celebration" for the "sacrifice" of the Mass then expect any subjective use of the term to, at some point, be deemed acceptable. I will be interested to see how (or if) this is explained.
-Fides quaerens intellectum
Bitte, stehen Sie und zingen Sie "Neun-und-neunzig Luftballons". #99 in your hymnal.
Not Schonborn! And are his "vestments" tye-die?!
It is hard to imagine the Cardinal having much foreknowledge of what was going to happen. My suspicion was that he was ambushed by most of this. Once Mass started, its difficult to imagine how to appropriately deal with it.
almost surreal.
FYI: A mass like this takes place every month in the archdiocese of Vienna. The diocesan youth ministry tours different parishes. It has been happening for 2-3 years at least. Every now and then Card. Schönborn is the main celebrant (at least 2-3 times by now).
Many people who are friends with Cardinal Schönborn do not knwo why his is doing that.
I'm with Dave - here's the thing: If this kind of garbage was going on in an actual nightclub, people would run right out. SO LAME! It would be the laughingstock of the club circuit. I'm not suggesting that they attempt to make the nightclub mass cooler - I'm suggesting that they drop the charade and leave the mass alone. Wow. I'd be LOL all throughout that if I wasn't crying over the abuse. But, i live in Santa Monica, so, I'm used to this sort of thing. St. Monica's parish has Fr. Richard Rohr coming to celebrate mass and give a talk next week, if that gives you an idea.
Why do the folks who come up with these kitschy,
chaotic, irreverent ceremonies believe that such
trash will draw, keep and nourish the faith of the young? When I was in college I had the misfortune
to have my parish/student center run by an order
that prided itself on being up-to-the-minute on
every liturgical fad. One day, during an especially
absurd, incomprehensible liturgy a stranger turned
to me and asked "What the hell IS this?". We folks
in the pews can be very indulgent when Father
wants to be groovy -- but when we're asking each
other what the hell is going on here, that's a sign
that somebody's liturgist needs to be reeled in.
So I'll say it : What the hell IS this?
When was this "Mass" celebrated? Perhaps it's something outdated and his Emminence has come to his senses...
That's what I hoped.
Video details say it was recorded this Sunday....
Looks like the perfect place for Obamabots to celebrate Mass!
If the man who wrote the catechism doesn't even take its teaching on the liturgy seriously, why should anyone else?
Yes, this is bad; very awful. I thought using 'regular bread' was forbidden? Not to mention how crumbs would easily fall from their hands. Very sad. I hope Pope Benedict XVI sees this and stops this. It is CTA all over again.
Balloons- arrgh.
why did he bother wahing his hands? was it because of rubrics? oh, please. I thought the church grew out of this phase of rebellion years ago. I hope God is laughing because I'm not. afraid, be very afraid.
and of course, none of the music is in the vernacular, i.e. German. Singing in English and (Spanish?) because it's "cooler". The otherwise orthodox parish in the lovely little Styrian city where I lived used the "I believe in angels" song for their first Communion class.
I will never understand why anyone thinks anyone wants this.
Those vesements look like they got purchased at Burning Man festival. Better yet, looks like they are loaned from the Episcopal church.
The only thing surprising most of us is that it's Cardinal Schonborn. But ought we be that surprised?
Some of us are still finding our sea legs after the liturgical shipwreck of the papal masses of JPII and the silliness implicitly condonded by his acceptance of Piero Marini's love of innovation. This sort of foolishness will be with us, I am afraid, until the influence of the Traditional Latin Mass has soaked sufficiently back into the heart of Holy Mother Church.
washing -- not wahing -- sorry.
I like the vestments (really, I do) and the music is fine,maybe a little loud, but why are they playing it at those parts of the Mass? And what's with the balloons and the strange lights and
OK, first off, did anyone think to point out that once the balloons deflate they will all end up on the floor? Not a real effective way to send a prayer up to God. Among other things...
Second, some of the songs they were singing (Holy, Holy, Holy is the one I'm thinking of) they sing at one of our Sunday Masses at our parish. It's a la Stubenville, which I don't have any problems with, I just don't care for that kind of Praise and Worship music period. My husband and I can't stand going because people hold hands and wave their hands in the air. They also have guitars and drums (shiver). I just personally find it obnoxious. I also dislike rock concerts, much less at Mass.
Although, we also had a traditional Latin Mass for our wedding, so I guess our tastes are a bit different. :)
I did notice that thing about the Communion Host. I actually attended a Mass that did something similar out in Gary, ID. Is that common? I always thought that was a big no-no.
Before I was sick, now I am extremely angry that Catholics DO THIS and HARM us ALL.
WOW, how could a Cardinal get duped into this? Long ago were the days the walls of the faithful in Vienna held back the enemies of Christ! Saint Florian, pray for us!!
btw, John V, I am still laughing. Great post!
We can only/always hope/pray that all the "pleas" attached to the balloons said "PLEASE. Make. The Hurting. STOP!"
...
I'm speechless.
This is why people take refuge in SSPX.
This is why Europe is largely post-Christian.
This is why any ecumenical activities originating with Cardinal S are dangerous to the faith.
I've seen some bad things out of Los Angeles, but this one is right up there.
In all seriousness, we need to make acts of reparation for the offenses which took place in this Mass. Spend time in front of the Blessed Sacrament.
I'm sorry, did I just hear a hardcore electric guitar riff during the consecration?
*twitch*
It's scary, demonic, heartbreaking. It's like he's doing it against his will.
Thomas,
I find your blog quite interesting, but it might help your readers if you cite specific Catechism and Canon Law, especially in a situation where you accuse (and I stress accuse) a Cardinal of "grace liturgical abuse." Perhaps I am mistaken in your accusation, but are you accusing the Cardinal of violating Canon 846? Because it would hardly appear as if the Cardinal would be violating such in what he is displayed as taking part in the film.
Citations are always good; especially when discussing something that could potentially have both Catechetical and Canonical implications.
Yours,
Joseph
A fellow theologian
Are you sure this wasn't a scene edited out of Idiocracy?
This is very disturbing. There really needs to be tighter control over allowing the mass to be secularised like this. The music and balloons is just ludicrous.
O MY.
so heartbreaking.
Hi Joseph, I'm sure Thomas will have no problems providing specific citations. From my perspective, however, what we've witnessed is a "celebration" that is replete with irreverence.
"In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favouritism." (Redemptionis Sacramentum, 183)
What
The
Faith?
I notice he was writing out his own card to attach the to a balloon. I hope it said, "Please make this disaster stop!" Absolutely horrendous.
It said "Call the polizei!"
Were the balloons a pre-mass event? As such, they would be quite silly, but not the liturgical disaster they would be if they had been released as somehow "part" of mass.
OMG, this is MASS??? God help us...
This is one of the dumbest things I have ever seen.
What's next; hula hoops, frisbees, paintball?
It would appear that the Eastern Orthodox claim about being the true Church, rather than us, is gaining more traction daily.
I'm silently screaming now...
Nooooo! Why, Cardinal Schonborn, WHY???
It's so wrong that it boggles the mind...
The Christian pop hit "Open the eyes of my heart" isn't equivalent in any sense to the Sanctus. Plus, not only was it horribly out of place, but it was played with awful interpretation... gross gross gross.
Hahaha. Love the power chords during the consecration..... :(
I read about the Cardinal celebrating a similar Mass (even yearly, I can't recall exactly)back in the mid 90's. I was suspicious about his being chosen to work on the Catechism because of that participation and condoning of liturgical abuses. We can be thankful that the Catechism turned out as well as it did, considering he headed it up.
There is nothing new under the sun as Ecclesiastes says.
?And this is a good example for us not to put our hopes in any man or Cardinal or even Pope, but in the Lord Jesus Christ and the Church He founded who is infallible and perfect.
HOLY TOLEDO! You've GOT to be kidding me! What a VERY sad video! Did anyone see the girl just holding and chomping down on the 'bread' after she received communion???? She was just eating it like it was a breadstick from Olive Garden!
This is truly a distrubing video. I'm actually sick now.
While clearly not how I would hope Mass would be offered, in charity perhaps we should give the Cardinal Archbishop at least the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps he was aware that these well-intentioned but liturgically deficient youth Masses were taking place, and wanted to witness to the students, rather than preach to the choir. Perhaps his homily (which we do not see in the video) encouraged the youth to turn their zeal into love for Jesus Christ, to seek the Truth, to follow the Faith more closely. We just don't know. While I agree that cheesy pop music, ugly vestments, and balloons should be avoided, I do not think we can be so quick to condemn Cardinal Schoenborn - as one commenter noted, what exactly would you have had him do? Stop saying Mass?
Please note that I am not a theologian or canon lawyer, but if the consecration was indeed illicit at worse, or even just tasteless, that is worthy of concern. But even still, I think we should be a little more prudent before making accusations.
NO WONDER THAT THERE HAVE BEEN STATUES OF THE BVM THAT "CRY" TEARS OF BLOOD!
THIS IS INEXCUSEABLE AND A PRIME EXAMPLE OF THE HAPPINSTANCE THAT FOLLOWS THE LACK OF MASCULINE PRIESTS ...AND THE SERIOUS OMISSION OF BISHOPS WHO ARE TO BE OUR TRUE FATHERS...BUT HERE WE SEE WOULD MUCH RATHER JUST BE OUR PARTY BUDDIES! ULTIMATELY...OUR REACTION SHOULD BE ONE OF MAJOR REPARATION TO THE POOR LORD.
AN INVALID AND ILLICIT MASS...I AM DOING A FACE PLANT INTO THE FLOOR
Yes, he should have stopped the Mass, told the musicians to stop playing, and told the congregation: "I'm going to say Mass the right way."
I’m with Richard and Frank above. While possibly irreverent, tacky and in poor taste what exactly is wrong (illicit, immoral, and invalid)? Has anyone here been to a Franciscan University of Steubenville (FUoS) Youth Rally or even a mass at the FUoS? Does FUoS get a free pass because they have a reputation as an orthodox university? I’m not saying this mass is licit or reverent but I’m reading a lot of generally righteous indignation without much on specifics. This attitude is neither Catholic nor scholastic. Try these questions and be specific: What makes a mass or this mass irreverent other than personal taste? Liturgically speaking, how much flexibility does the celebrant have? Is this a good thing? Why or why not? One final point: Sacramentally speaking, irreverent is not the same as illicit and illicit is not the same as invalid.
Bill912, I agree that that scenario would have been ideal and inspirational. Obviously there are actions occurring in the Mass as depicted in the video which are both in poor taste and in violation of the rubrics. But again, as I am not the archbishop of Vienna, and have no context for the situation, I'm unwilling to condemn the archbishop (who, it must be noticed, seems to be comporting himself quite reverently, given the situation).
and what a strange era we live in - a twenty-something Catholic like myself can sit in my apartment in suburban Washington DC, and attempt to judge the validity of a Mass being offered by the Cardinal Archbishop of Vienna, the author of the most recent Catechism, and a one-time student of the Holy Father. I'm not sure I feel comfortable with this "power"...
"Sacramentally speaking, irreverent is not the same as illicit and illicit is not the same as invalid."
And I really, really hate to be the one to make the further distinction, but horrendously tacky is not the same as irreverent. For instance, a person goes to the church and puts up felt banners that make Jesus look something like a medieval French clown. I can certainly accuse the person of having some massively bad taste in art, but I don't think I can say just based on that (or 50 other cases of bad taste along side the first) that the person is outright *irreverent* towards the Mass or the Eucharist.
Okay, the balloons and the music were in bad taste, but what *exactly* were the grave liturgical abuses of which you accuse the cardinal?
Regarding the poster who referred to the Dominicans, we are frequently at Holy Rosary parish in Portland which is staffed by Dominicans. FYI, not only is everything correct, but all kneel at the communion rail to receive communion, the sign of peace is shared among the congregants only on the rarest occasions, the 11AM Mass on Sunday is accompanied by Gregorian chant, and the preaching is really extraordinary in every good way- orthodox, inspirational, brief.
Frank is right to stick up for Cardinal Schoenborn. Suggest we give HIM, if not the situation, the benefit of the doubt. This is after all Cdl Schoenborn.
Not one liturgical abuse in the whole thing. You can't even tell when the music playing is actually at the mass or when it is dubbed over the video. You're all a bunch of prissy busybodies.
I believe the good cardinal is signaling his desire to remain a cardinal just in case his name appears on any list for future pope...
...ahem...
Fr. Philip, OP
Stephen, define "liturgical abuse."
I see two violations of the rubrics right off the bat: illicit matter (leavened bread) and illicit vessels (wooden not metal). Not earth-shaking violations, granted. However, you are missing an important point about these goofy Masses. I can't tell you how many times in seminary we were subjected to serious liturgical abuses only to be told when he objected: "Well, Cardinal X did it in Africa last week" or "The Pope had this at his Mass recently." These goofy Masses are almost always opportunities to test the charity of the celebrant so that a precedent is set so that future and more serious abuses can be justified later on. I can just see the next youth Mass with inflated condoms flying around..."Well, Cardinal Schonborn used balloons last time and condoms are just uninflated balloons..."
You think I'm kidding...
Fr. Philip, OP
It is impossible to press the WTF buttons on my laptop enough...
And I thought the Masses at my (Dominican) college were bad! This is even worse than the youth group Masses the parish used to do when I was in high school! At least we kept our instrumentation to a piano...sheesh!
This is not about bad taste!!!
It is not even about violation of the text of the GIRM.
It is about turning the most important event in human history - the death and resurrection of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords for our salvation - into a cultural 'event', an occasion to party!
Holy Mass is supposed to be something extraordinary; you are supposed to feel Heaven touching Earth. By turning the Church into a disco club, both in its physical appearance and in the music employed, one is fundamentally altering the character of the Holy Mass, making it into something very ordinary, into something which can basically be experienced every Thursday to Saturday at Club Q down the street - only much more interesting.
How on earth does anyone imagine that those poor kids were able to recognise that it was their Lord and Saviour they were receiving?
And Geoffrey Miller - I think what you said about the Eastern Orthodox is quite true.
They must be laughing their butts off every time they hear our claim that we are the True Church.
In the East, the Mass is called the Divine Liturgy. What reference is there to divinity in that Mass? Or, for that matter, in many Masses celebrated today?
When the Divine is purged from the liturgy, it becomes increasingly strenuous to argue that the Church itself is holy.
i'm in disbelief.
1) is this video authentic and not digitally altered?
2) what was cardinal schönborn's reaction, if any, after this event?
3) other than being editor of the CCC, cardinal schönborn was a student of ratzinger and is a friend of father joseph fessio (two vocal proponents of traditional reverence in the Mass). because he comes from such company, i find all this quite perplexing.
Before we go after Cardinal Schonborn, let's check ourselves on our use of "WTF."
If it stands for what I think it does, it takes the air and indignation out of our arguments before we even begin.
I still cringe at "sucks" being accepted into the vernacular.
Humility, Charity, and Benefit of the Doubt: I hope every critic of mine has those firmly in hand.
"Calvary Chapel meets Catholicism"
I'm in shock.
Our pastors need to be leaders and stand up to us.
Clearly the Cardinal could not have come up with the idea of a "nightclub" mass but he did not stand up those who want it.
In other words, our pastors need to realize that like children many of us want to take over the dinner schedule of the family and feed everyone cotton candy, a real parent would not let his child feel "involved" in the dinner process by malnurishing himself and his family, the real parent would make sure the child get a real meal.
Lets pray for our pastors to have courage to to their job.
Gunnar
Watching this, I get the sense that there's not enough faith in the presence of God at the Mass, so they have to add in a bunch of filler to make up for it and to have a reason to get together to have "an experience" instead of a Mass.
Karen,
I think you are quite right. This is what has been happening in Protestantism for a long time.
The loss of faith in God's presence in the liturgy moreover often leads to loss of faith in His existence overall. After all, if God is not present in the Liturgy and the Sacrifice, where is He anyway?
I couldn't get the video-all I got was the audio.
But I'm sure I would have either gotten sick or just rolled my eyes in frustration!
How utterly sad.
I lived in Austria for nearly two years during college and attended so many beautiful, reverent masses in those gorgeous churches. Seeing this breaks my heart. I will never forget looking for the last mass of the day one weekend in Vienna and stumbling upon a tiny parish off a small side street. I sat down and began to prepare myself for mass when the sound of Mozart's Mass in C Minor drifted through the air. Talk about inspiration!
Juxtapose that with this circus act. It's bad enough that we American Catholics are being subjected to such Protestant-based musical claptrap in our parishes, but it's just a travesty to think that the Austrian Catholics, with their treasure of Catholic history, culture and tradition, have been succumbed to it.
Could have been worse...at least after the consecration the Cardinal didn't attach the Host to a balloon and fly it up to the ceiling...
An Austrian poster, presumably in the know, has posted on another blog that the bread is indeed unleavened, but specially processed with trapped air to give it the puffy, pita look. If that is true, then our prior assumption that the Cardinal would never consent to use illicit matter, is correct after all, and the charge that he did should not be repeated again.
That being said, it is still a dreadfully wrong-headed thing to do, to turn the Mass into this kind of show. Since he has apparently done this several times before, it is time for his friend Benedict XVI to call him up short and say, "No more!"
In 2004 I was at a very small meeting with two very prominent European Catholic philosophers and theologians. The subject of Cardinal Schonborn came up and these two people, of whom I have great respect, said that Cardinal Schonborn is a freemason.
I protested and the point was made more emphatically.
FYI
"It would appear that the Eastern Orthodox claim about being the true Church, rather than us, is gaining more traction daily."
Nope.
"And Geoffrey Miller - I think what you said about the Eastern Orthodox is quite true.
They must be laughing their butts off every time they hear our claim that we are the True Church."
You haven't the slightest idea. I have many, many Orthodox friends and, am myself considering changing my ecclesiastical alliances to their communion.
The Orthodox consider us a joke, and a bad one at that. They call us Protestants with mitres, anarchical legalists (I find this a very clever and apt term myself), noumenal minimalists, modernists, abridged Christianity with special offer inserts (referring to indulgences, many of which are a tad wacky), Bible-cutters (rather than Bible-thumpers, since we essentially prostitute ourselves with every trendy Scripture scholar), the Borg of Christendom (we soak up all living things in Christianity and make them bland, mechanical, lifeless, slaves to the Collective), politicians for Jesus (need I even elaborate on this one?), and other such names.
They have a point, and they do laugh at us a bunch. The ones high up may act all nice at our ecumenical gatherings, but it's out of pity for us. They're choking down giggles the entire time.
We're like the crazy, wild-eyed charismatic neighbor lady, with grease stains all over her shirt and disheveled hair, who runs up to their door, ranting about how God declared her to be the president of the USA in a vision she just had, and they must submit their alliegance to her or else, because after all, she's always been in charge.
One problem: the crazy lady has rung the doorbell of the White House.
Have you ever gotten the feeling that our Church is merely playing around with us like pawns, telling us to believe in things that they, in all truth, personally doubt but wish us to accept so as to remain in power? If the Church is a family, why doesn't it act more familial?
The Orthodox appear to have in abundance what we only have in scraps.
Attend a Catholic Mass, and then an Orthodox Liturgy; next hold a five minute conversation about faith with an average Catholic, and then with an average Orthodox. Finally, come and tell me the Catholic Church has the fulness of the Faith, the whole doctrine of the apostles, preserved while all others have forsaken it, and see if you can say all that with a straight-face, hmmm?
Having read Sun Tzu's "The Art of War," we're dead in the water compared to Eastern Orthodoxy. Short of dramatic, direct divine intervention from God Himself, I doubt our Church will survive this century as a coherent, identifiable body. Indeed, I often doubt if we can truly say that we are the same Church we were even just 100 years ago.
I don't mean to sound negative, wait...yes I do...but that's just the way things are. Our Church is dying by all accounts.
Perhaps there will be a resurrection after our crucifixion, no? Or perhaps we're merely a thief, and the real deal is being crucified next to us, with hi
I think that, prior to commenting on this, it would helpful to watch this Mass in full and unedited. Thomas, any chance you could post an unedited version?
You can e-mail your questions to the Cardinal Schönborn here:
http://stephanscom.at/edw/mail_kardinal
And Thomas, would you mind, when you post these sorts of things, tell us what you saw.
When I read through the comments (towards the beginning, I have to admit I can't read all 96) were about the music. THAT can't possibly the problem. PLEASE tell me that isn't the grave liturgical abuse! Folks! You don't have to like it!
What I saw was the crazy balloons, which while annoying...eh. Didn't affect the Eucharist. Oh wait, the Eucharist? You means the massive chunks of bread and crumbs?
Yeah, I think that is FAR worse than bashing the music. Frankly, there can be holy and wonderful liturgies with latin music as well as P&W (let's not start that fight, really) but it was the bread used for the Eucharist that freaked me out.
Geoffrey, I agree with you entirely and it is why I became Orthodox. The story of the Emperor's New Clothes could be an allegory of modern Catholicism, and if you point out the emperor is naked, the invariable response is silence or anger. But even though I have left the Roman communion, I can't help continuing to ask the same question, in hopes someday of hearing an intelligent answer: How can you persist in the papal cult of personality in face of the facts? How do you claim that the church must have a pope with the powers of an absolute monarch, but then refuse to consider him responsible when the church is in such a prolonged state of crisis? How can you revere as living saints the men who gave the Rembert Weaklands and the Roger Mahoneys power to destroy the liturgy and the faith? Until the popes are held responsible for the mess they have made, there is no realistic hope for the future of the Roman Church. I find it harder and harder to have any sympathy for conservative Catholics who moan about the state of the church but refuse to face the facts about who is responsible.
Fear not .. these are the death rattles of the modernists and their sacrilegious Masses. Since they are under attack, it is only natural that they fight back. I would not be surprised if we see more of this garbage. Pray for our priests and bishops to fend off these attacks of Satan.
It is better to "bemoan" these abuses and work from the inside for change than to take the easy road of just walking away to another church. How long will it take you to walk away from Orthodoxy when you find something offensive there as well?
The message is not wrong. We have to clean up the messengers.
How can you persist in the papal cult of personality in face of the facts?
Uhh...not wanting to be looking like the Vichy French after the liberation of Paris?
This video now has the dubious distinction of being my personal standard against which (technically valid) liturgical abuse is measured.
http://wdtprs.com/blog/2008/11/s...card-schonborn/
Feh. I used to work at a parish in San Antonio that was known to be "progressive," in its liturgy, so folksy guitar masses and leavened bread were the norm. Yes, illicit leavened bread. Not invalid. The point was made that the rubrics state that the hosts to be used for Eucharist is:
a) to be made of flour and water, no leavening
b) to be made in a manner appropriate to what it's going to be used for
c) that the bread have the texture and taste of bread on the tongue, that you can recognize it as bread when you consume it.
Since most hosts used come in a plastic bag lined up like Ritz crackers, and are made in commercial ovens by the hundred, I think there's an argument that the second rubric gets ignored. And I don't think anyone would say that their church is obeying the third. "Two out of three ain't bad."
Of course, when the Bishop would come, they would make hosts out of flour and Perrier. Cub Scout's Honor. It fluffs up like it's been leavened but it doesn't hold up in the tabernacle very well.
I'd be very interested in hearing what other specific abuses folks are seeing. Not that I would want to be caught dead in a disco mass like that.
I don't know, Patrick, that looked like a church full o' kids, which seem far from death rattles.
Some people need to grow up and realize that not everything in life needs to be a big party!
While I can understand the arguments for going over to the Eastern Orthodox, I know it's not the answer - but one thing does leave me confused. Why does it seem like out pope is helpless in these matters? I mean, why are these things allowed to persist? Why are so many different styles and interpretations allowed? Shouldn't the vicar of Christ stand up and say "Enough!" Didn't Jesus go into the temple and lose it? Didn't he overturn tables?
"How long will it take you to walk away from Orthodoxy when you find something offensive there as well?" This isn't about me. It is about a deep seated problem with the Roman Catholic notion of authority, which Roman Catholics refuse to face.
Jesus already faced it for us; He gave the authority to Peter.
The activities at the Mass were silly. And so is the mass apoplexy you're all expressing. Get a grip.
The clip of video I saw was edited too much for me to follow. I assume the balloon episode was during the General Intercessions? The stobe light, or whatever that green thing was, is hurtful to my eyes. And I despise that kind of "music."
The Cardinal looked like he was at best bemused.
After all is said and done, it was not an invalid Mass. Whoever is saying that is just wrong.
It was a silly Mass, a tasteless Mass. But, it was a valid Mass.
At least according to the way I believe. I don't condemn Masses as being invalid when I'm not there to see for myself.
And, believe me, I have way, way less understanding of what went on. I notice His Eminence was wearing his pallium. That means HE has full jurisdiction. Not some of the posters on this very amusing string.
Thomas (and others),
I understand your concerns; however, I fail to see where you are deriving your Catechetical and/or Canonical deficiencies from. Although I would agree with you that this is perhaps not my idea of a mass, services that are offered in African countries would also perhaps be seen as being "unacceptable" in the Western psyche. However, I will ask again... please point out for which Canons precisely are being violated and in addition perhaps the Catechetical concerns that you have. As I stated earlier, accusing a Cardinal of "grave liturgical abuse" is a hefty accusation, that at the VERY least necessitates Canonical weight to enhance and validate your argument.
In addition, merely point to a "balloon-release" or to the "consecration response," bring me back to my statement regarding varying liturgical traditions... just wait for the meeting on Africa, then you will see how very differently masses are celebrated around the world.
Allow me to once again say, I do not condone the service that was depicted in this video; however, a statement as weighty as "grave," deserves a clear explanation.
Yours in Christ,
Joseph
A fellow theologian
The gall to even be "president" in such a liturgy makes me say, "Take off your zuchetto and pallium and put on the episcopal colors to serve as Titular Archbishop of Atlantis."
I am now on to this cardinal-archbishop's agenda. No true shepherd, even here in the US, would get involved in such a thing.
By the way, I don't care what type of leavened bread is in Mosul: it's the Chaldean Catholic Church that comprises the body of Catholics in the Fertile Crescent. Latin Catholics don't use that type of host regardless of how normative and licit it is in Mosul. All of these disciplines were naysayed by the Holy Fathers in the first half of the last century.
There is no indication in the video that the bread used at the mass was leavened. Even if it was, that would not make it invalid matter or the orthodox always celebrate invalid liturgies. Second, although rock music is discouraged, it is not a liturgical abuse to use it in a mass. Bad taste does not equal liturgical violation. You cannot tell from the video when the balloons were released. It is a video, after all, and was probably edited. Fourth, there is not a liturgical rubric restricting who can be in the sanctuary that I know of.
Ok, so you all hate this liturgy. Fine. But to call it a grave liturgical abuse? Poppycock. My positions remains that the vast majority of the comments (with notable exceptions) exemplify the prissy-pant cassock clinging know-it-all scandal mongering that turn sane people away from the Church.
Knowing the liturgy is hard, but knowing Christ is a lot harder. Spend your time in that endeavor, and quit wasting your time with all of this ridiculous wailing and gnashing of teeth.
BTW, I stand with the successor of the apostles and prince of the Church any day of the week against all his detractors. Most of you need to learn how to love your fathers.
I get a kick out of all the talk about the Eastern Orthodox here.
On Fr. Z's site he posts a communique that says that the "bread" is actually the liturgical form from Iraq.
Considering that Cardinal Schonborn has a tremendous background in the Byzantine Rite, and has full faculties as the head of both the Latin and Byzantine Rites in Austria, the distribution of an Iraqi style host is interesting.
Now, the music is OBVIOUSLY dubbed over, considering the way the film cuts from scene to scene while the music remains constant. It's perhaps poor editing, but not degrading to the Eucharistic prayer as some might suppose.
While the music may disappoint many of the sensibilities of the readers of this blog, that does not invalidate the Mass itself.
As one poster above says, we're here thousands of miles away judging a great man by a minute or two of video.
And aren't so many of us the same people who were critical of how media was used and edited to portray certain president-elects during the campaign season?
Better that these kids go to Mass and enjoy the presence of the good Cardinal, than turn to drugs or international banking or other socially deviant affairs.
My 30 yr old son is a daily communicant who happens to abhor Gregorian chant while he loves heavy metal. To him it is beautiful. To me that is incomprehensible, but it is a fact nonetheless.
To me this discussion is very reminiscent of the affair of the chinese rites in the 1600's. The Chinese emperor wanted the Mass said in Chinese, but the pope balked. The Jesuits were asked by the Emperor to leave China, whereas they could have evangelized it otherwise. This is a vast simplification, I know.
But if these young people love hard rock and find it beautiful, whereas it is "chinese" to us, by what objective standard can we say that it is obnoxious, that it is an abuse? Is it an abuse on the part of the cardinal to indulge these young people this experimentation? A loving parent will indulge his children at times, keeping in mind a correction to be made later on, a fuller education. So the Cardinal puts up with the balloons and the music...for a time. Saying this is merely to give the Cardinal the benefit of the doubt, which after all he deserves.
No one praises the Cardinal that these kids are at Mass in the first place.
If the matter is both licit and valid in virtue of being made with wheaten flour and Perrier (does anyone know of a certainty that it was not?), then are we not perhaps imitating European incomprehension of the Chinese in the 17th c. in our shrill condemnation of this Mass?
They are at Mass. They are receiving the Eucharist. This is good, not bad.
They are in the right way. They need to be brought along, but that is not up to us, thanks be to God!
No, I don't like seeing this kind of junk, but I gave up being a Liturgical cop years ago. If you would, an allegory. If one of my children were to write with marker or crayon on the wall, I would scold them. I would tell them that I don't like seeing my property treated in such a disrespectful manner. If they were to write on the wall "My Daddy is the best Daddy! I love my Daddy!" I would still scold them, I would still have them get out sponges and Maestro Limpio and clean off the wall, but I'd take a picture of it first. And I'd pull out that picture and show it to many a friend to demonstrate my child's love for me.
Several comments up I posted a link to the official response (via WDTPRS) to all of this internet liturgical policing. It might be worth reading.
Did any of you German-speakers recognize the "Our Father" being "sung" in this video? Kyrie eleison.
I'm afraid that I did not find myself as outraged as I would've some time ago, over this kind of abuse. I think because, I'm becoming desensitized little by little by our world and where it's headed. That being said, My love is for the Eucharist. This was NOT unleavened bread, which is a liturgical abuse right there. Also, the feeling was like walking into a nightclub and witnessing the MAss!!!!
I think that the illusion of warm fuzzy feelings here among the youth is quite dangerous, because it leads one to SELF and NOT TO GOD. Something to ponder....Why is it that the most Traditional (where the Tridentine LAtin MAss is said) monasteries and seminaries are bursting at the seams and waitlists to get in with YOUNG TALENTED ATTRACTIVE YOUTH!!!???? Why? Because God is THERE. They are seeking Him and seeking TRUTH! This video is the work of the enemy. We need to pray very hard for this cardinal and priests and youth.
Are you kidding me? Rainbow vestments, laser light shows and rock music are considered"grave liturgical abuses". Then American Papist continues, "And those are just the ones that first come to mind, I could go on." Please do because if this is the best you have you haven't gotten your money's worth in graduate theology. Here is a suggestion - take up Joseph, A fellow theologian's challenge and actually state which cannon, norm, rubric or what have you was violated in letter or spirit. All we have now is your opinion in the quote, "I can say with a confidence gained from studying liturgy at some length, that the sort of Mass depicted above is not "what the Lord wanted" Is this what passes for scholastic thought today? I expect non premised opinions and personal feelings from Protestant snake oil salesmen not catholic theologians.
As I wade through the outrage, vulgarity, and utter vile over what comes down to simply a matter of taste lets review some basic tenets of the faith. What makes the sacrifice of the mass beautiful is not what is seen but what is not seen! Ever been to a mass at a hospital, soup kitchen, combat zone? It is just as beautiful as any Cathedral or Basilica. The design of the church, its statues, stain glass, marble, columns etc are all Sacramental. Sacramentals prepare us for the grace of the Sacrament; the same thing the lasers and rock music attempt to do. Certainly we can debate its appropriateness, effectiveness or even beauty or taste but to go off the deep end and use a five minute video as a metaphor for all that is wrong with the church. How Catholic is that?
As for beauty, I will leave you with a closing thought: When I married my wife six years ago she was beautiful by any standard. She was young, lean, proportionate, tan and fit. I thought I was the luckiest man alive. Today, four children later with one in the womb, her physical appearance is much different: Slightly overweight, graying hair, sagging breasts, stretch marks. I had no idea six years ago what real beauty was! Like it or not this was a valid mass. Can no one see the beauty of Christ's sacrifice through a laser light show?
If this doesn't qualify as liturgical abuse, then we may as well just give up and let people fornicate on the altar during Mass.
It's not specifically condemned in the GIRM is it?
"As I wade through the outrage, vulgarity, and utter vile over what comes down to simply a matter of taste..."
No, this is not a matter of taste. This is a matter of what meets an objective standard of reverence, what facilitates a genuine encounter with the mystery of the Eucharist, instead of obscuring it through an insipid focus on "the community". It's about music which lifts one's mind to contemplation of higher things, and doesn't subvert the spirit to the senses in a torrent of self-indulgent inebriation. This is a matter of loyalty to the Church's long-standing and immutable liturgical tradition, which is every Catholic's inheritance.
Like it or not, the liturgy cannot be reduced to a science. It isn't exclusively about adherence to rubrics. At some point, a line must be drawn between the sacred and the profane. Thankfully, we don't have to make this judgment ourselves - it has already been made through the Church's liturgical tradition - its universal custom from which so many have strayed. The Mass has a profound and intrinsic relationship with Gregorian chant - the proper music of the liturgy, according to the Church herself. That's the answer to the problem of reverence in the liturgy - surrender entirely to the tradition, shunning innovation - don't impose our own tastes or expecations on the liturgy, but defer entirely to the Church's custom. Don't compromise and inch with the spirit of the world, but remain in continuity with what has been passed on to us through the generations.
"Attend a Catholic Mass, and then an Orthodox Liturgy; next hold a five minute conversation about faith with an average Catholic, and then with an average Orthodox. Finally, come and tell me the Catholic Church has the fulness of the Faith, the whole doctrine of the apostles, preserved while all others have forsaken it, and see if you can say all that with a straight-face, hmmm?"
Easily. I attend the Traditional Latin Mass - I haven't a doubt that the true faith exists among the community there, or that any of the saints would feel at home during that liturgy.
The Orthodox are to be commended for their adherence to liturgical tradition, for their ability to avoid much of the insanity that plagues the West. If their salvation didn't depend on it, I'd tell them to make sure to stay out of communion with us until we sort out our own messes. Alas... extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
This event is, of course, a very big scandal. However, given that such things, alas, happen every sunday in every country, it really can be an opportunity to make people react and recognize openly that there's a problem in the Church with liturgy, I mean, in certain corners of the Church, but corners strongly linked to bureaucrats of national conferences (it is now less true in the States, but it remains very true in Europe and elsewhere...). We must say and make people acknowledge that they aren't allowed to do that with sacred mysteries, and, moreover, that giving up to them like Cardinal Schönborn, mitigate in such a way with them, is a bad tactic.
To do that, we must say that obedience to rubrics doesn't only cover correct texts (but even the texts aren't respected : in many parishes of provincial France, of Belgium, all the masses are with different texts for Credo (I believe in God that sings, etc. - not kidding, alas !), Gloria, Agnus replaced by Evenou Shalom Aleichem, etc.), no psalm but a meditative song...), but that to follow the rubrics is also, as the Papist said, to follow the liturgical colors, to respect the roles of each region in liturgical space, to let play only the instruments that may be played, and so...
But I think we must point that : a liturgical abuse doesn't only occur when a due lawyer can prove that something occur contrary to the written rubrics. No. When you play balloons and such non-sens, or you do clown masses, by a restricted use of common sense (a notion difficult to use, I agree, but necessary in some cases), it is a liturgical abuse, that is : it is a lack of reverence towards God and His sacrifice for us.
And IT.MUST.BE.STOPPED
So I think this case, as revealing thousands of invisible cases, is an opportunity we shouldn't lose to make such abuses known, to make people (the mass of laity, influent people, clergy, bishops, officials in the Curia) acknowledge that this is bad and has to be stopped, and to demand public vows by official to stop it clearly.
By contrast, to the various documents of Rome, the responsable for liturgy in the French national episcopal conference repeatedly said that the era of liturgical abuse was ended in France...
So we must act. Now.
One problem that no one has brought up yet is the fact that this type of "praise band" Mass may attract some youth initially but what is it they are attracted to? We have a praise band at my church which I try to avoid at all costs but have been subject to on a couple of occasions. It is completely irreverent loud and obnoxious, and I love rock music, just not at Mass. I guarantee you that once the youth equate the Mass to a rock concert they will eventually find a better venue. Can you remember your own first likes in music as an early teen-ager? The Osmonds, the Hansons, New Kids on the Block? Then we moved on to bigger and better bands. Our praise band Masses are like these or like a garage band. The protestant mega churches are like the head liners that play at sold out stadiums. Why would anyone who comes for the loud music stay when there is a place that does it much better down the road? You might say because of the Eucharist... I am sure that is why these kids are there. And we wonder why our youth lose their faith after they leave home. How about if we stop trying to be protestant and go back to being Catholic?
It seems to me that some things should be pointed out:
First of all, I conjecture that the letter from the Cardinal's spokesperson did not mention the other purported liturgical abuses because because, to put matters on their head, those are not liturgical abuses, at least not "grave" ones.
Second of all, the vestments worn in the Cardinal's Mass were worn by Pope Benedict XVI himself during his recent trip to Austria and Mariazell. This is evidenced by these photographs:
http://www.splendoroftruth.com/
c...t_Mariazell.jpg
http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/
...s_mariazell.jpg
http://ncronline.org/NCR_Online/...otos/
p21pha.jpg
In wearing those vestments, did the Pope commit a grave liturgical abuse? I don't think so. Recall that #346.g of the GIRM states that "On more solemn days, [the Mass was celebrated on a Sunday] sacred vestments may be used that are festive, that is, more
precious, even if not of the color of the day." The vestments were emblazoned with gold thread as well as delicate shades of Marian blue.
While the remaining points are not to the liking of AmP, I would challenge him to show -- that is to demonstrate and not merely to assert -- how these constitute grave liturgical abuses.
**I would think that wrongly accusing a Cardinal of grave liturgical abuse in a public forum read by many untrained in liturgy and theology would be a much more serious offense!!
Why is it "irreverent"? Because you say so?? What if, like chrisacs alluded to, it opens the youth to really engage in the Mass? Is there any value in that? And then, once drawn in, we can assist in bringing them into deeper beauties of the Liturgy by chance? Possible?
Paul- you have made a jump that misses several logical steps in comparing the music with fornicating on the alter because "It's not specifically condemned in the GIRM".
When we become the Liturgy nazi's we miss the whole point. Should we not safeguard it? Yes, but I get the feeling from many of the comments here that if people aren't up to snuff then chuck the lot of them. I hardly think the music is the worst thing going here. Or the atmosphere. Because I have been to many many Masses with youth where lights and praise and worship music is used-and we weren't in a Cathedral, we were in a gym or other such place-and those kids GOT it. They WERE reverant, they KNEW what was going on. They praised the Lord and they received the Lord and then they proclaim how the MET the Lord at that Mass. So don't make it such a battle ground. Mass is Sacred, it is the center of our Faith, Jesus Christ, true God and true man condescending to us in Bread and Wine. Yes. This is the pinnicle of our faith. But when I see kids worshiping the God like I know they wouldn't do in a Cathedral with an organ, I praise the almighty God that he is not as harsh as we are.
Paul
"This is a matter of what meets an objective standard of reverence"
Do you know what objective means? Buy what object is it measured by? Outdoor Mass World Youth Day does that count? How about a Mass celebrated in a Hotel Ball Room by the Knights of Columbus or some other Catholic Organization? Yankee Stadium Mass for the Holy Father's Visit?
So once again can anyone name one specific thing that makes this Mass Invalid? Can anyone name one specific thing that makes this Mass illicit? And for the Paul's posting above name one objective, or subjective for that matter, standard to measure a mass's reverence.
For a group that goes nuts over relativism in politics and culture we sure have no problems applying relative standards to our taste in the Mass
I think it would be good (perhaps should be required) for every Catholic to read and re-read The "Spirit of the Liturgy" by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI). Perhaps throw in "The Ratzinger Report" while they are at it.
"rock instruments, including heavy metal for the consecration response"
Well, it wasn't heavy metal by any means, but as a fan of lots of hard rock and metal... I was horrified when I heard the distorted guitars begin during the consecration response.
:|
I mean... wow... there's a time and a place.
This Catholic Rock band, Critical Mass, used to do lots of retreats in Ontario and the surrounding areas. They'd rock out during their concerts, but when they were providing music ministry for mass, it was a very different matter. As much as I love the sound of a Les Paul going through an OS-2 pedal, that's not mass music...
And some considered him papabile in 2005!
Q: What's the difference between a terrorist and a liturgist?
A: You can negotiate with a terrorist.
8-)
The bread distributed in bamboo? wooden? bowls from Target looked like the stuff you serve with spinach dip. I don't need a copy of GIRM to know that you aren't supposed to put God the Son into bowls like that, and He is supposed to be in the form of UNleavened bread. Perhaps the Supersize wafer the cardinal held up was made from perrier, but not the rest of it.
I don't recall reading any posts that said this mass was invalid or illicit. Father Philip, yesterday at 3:39 AM, pointed out 2 rubrics violations.
You should post the message from his Eminence's press secretary.
It seems to me that the most sane and rational conclusion is to suppose that the Cardinal himself did not have a hand in the planning of this liturgical celebration.
However, I do find some of the reaction (here and elsewhere) to the Cardinal's spokesperson's comments quite irrational.
The spokesperson indicated that the same kind of eucharistic bread in use in this Mass is used in Mosul. Some have objected that that claim doesn't hold water: After all, "what does it matter what people in Mosul do," seems to be the unspoken question, here. The underpinning of that question seems to be: what happens in Mosul matters for Mosul, but the celebrants of this Mass should have stuck to their liturgical customs -- which do not involve the use of Mosul-like eucharistic bread.
Yet, at the same time, people are concerned about the music that was used in this celebration, claiming that it is out of place. Now, no liturgical document of which I am aware rules out of hand the use of such music. It might be tasteless to some spiritualities, but there is no positive law against its use. In the Mosul that is Austrian youth, this kind of music seems to be the style of the day. So, if one is going to argue that one shouldn't use Mosul-style eucharistic bread, because it is not the norm in Austria, and that one should use another kind of bread, which is the norm in Austria, then I think that one ought to be compelled to make a similar case regarding the choice of music. That is, Gregorian chant would be out of place among Austrian youth, but rock music is not. Therefore, one ought to be abide by the musical norms of Austrian youth (for whom the Mass was being celebrated) and use their kind of music.
Again, there is no positive law against the use of this kind of music and this kind of music is not in and of itself immoral. Indeed, it might even lead the youth more deeply into the mystery of the Mass. Don't forget that when the angel Gabriel appeared to Mary, the angel did not speak as angels speak, but spoke in words and images that Mary could understand.
Oh, will you schismatics please stop blaming the Pope(s) for the ills of Western Christianity!
I completely agree that Western Christianity is given to all manner of modernist and revisionist tendencies, but don't you see that that's just the point - if we didn't have the Popes we would be even more screwed than we are now? It is all providential.
The problems with the Church today stem from a revolt against the authority of the Pope, not from him himself. It was not the Pope who crafted the present liturgy, it was a commission of Bishops (shudder). The Pope endorsed it, true, but then the Ordo Missae as it stands in the Missale Romanum and the Mass which is celebrated in St. Joe's in Smithton are two very different entities.
(Even then, it is hardly unprecedented to carry out a major reform of the Divine Liturgy. Did not St. John Chrysostom do the same?)
The many (many) problems with Western Bishops which have existed throughout the centuries clearly demonstrate our need for a strong central command. And if you don't like that - well, the Catholic Church has for centuries provided a place for Eastern notions of regionalism as well as Eastern theology. Eastern Catholics don't have to engage in the Pope cult or use the Roman Liturgy!
Thomas (and others),
You continue to fail to offer any canonical or Catechetical support for your argument. In my opinion the lack of such material substance demonstrates the weakness of your argument and perhaps an inappropriate accusation that warrants an apology to the Cardinal.
My years of studying Canon Law have taught me that providing a sound argument is necessary to make or challenge an accusation that purports a Canonical basis.
Regards,
Joseph
A fellow theologian
If the good Cardinal did not break any Canon Law (which I don't know if he did or didn't not being a Canonist) then he certainly broke the law of common sense.
My only concern is what is happening to stop such scandal? Theses situations of scandal happen publically but there never seems to be any repercussions, which in my opinion just adds the scandal itself.
God Have Mercy On Us
"For a group that goes nuts over relativism in politics and culture we sure have no problems applying relative standards to our taste in the Mass"
Again this isn't about taste. This is about adherence to the liturgical tradition. Anything that strays from it is the imposition of personal taste. This Mass is a textbook case of placing personal desires over the integrity and spirit of the Church's liturgy.
The liturgy should be celebrated in the way, and according to the custom, which has become hallowed over the millenia. That's the objective standard. It really can't be put much simpler than that.
"You continue to fail to offer any canonical or Catechetical support for your argument. In my opinion the lack of such material substance demonstrates the weakness of your argument and perhaps an inappropriate accusation that warrants an apology to the Cardinal."
I don't think it was necessarily a canonical charge.
"Profanation of the temple" or "mockery of the Sacrifice" might have been more appropriate.
Only a hopeless legalist would demand documentation before he decides whether there's something wrong with that liturgy.
"Yet, at the same time, people are concerned about the music that was used in this celebration, claiming that it is out of place. Now, no liturgical document of which I am aware rules out of hand the use of such music. It might be tasteless to some spiritualities, but there is no positive law against its use."
Again, pure legalism. When will this insanity stop? When will people look beyond the letter of the law to the spirit of the liturgy, and see that the mystery is utterly obscured, reverence totally absent?
When will people see that club music is designed to subject the spirit to the senses, chain us to our base instints, and create a sort of self-indulgent intoxication? Music during the Mass must lift us to contemplation of higher things.
St. Pius X's encyclycal on the matter sets the perfect statndard. It shuns music designed to entertain us, to please our senses instead of serve the liturgy.
Paul, Paul, Paul,
I'll start by asking a question, is it your assertion that the Mass has an objective form that is more pleasing to God than other forms?
Think carefully before you respond.
AMEN! PAUL!
"Paul, Paul, Paul,
I'll start by asking a question, is it your assertion that the Mass has an objective form that is more pleasing to God than other forms?
Think carefully before you respond."
The Mass as practiced in the Latin Rite does indeed have an objective form. The form of the Mass is laid down by the authority of the Church and passed down by tradition. The Mass isn't some amorphous "guideline" onto which we can impose our personal preferences.
Whether there may be some hypothetical form that could be just as pleasing to God is an interesting question, but I think it's quite irrelevant to this discussion. We're Catholics of the Latin Rite, and this is the liturgy we have.
Of course, Eastern Catholics have a different form of liturgy that is certainly no less pleasing to God. What distinguishes the Divine Liturgy of St. John Crysostom from the "dance club Mass", however, should be evident.
So what determines the various elements of a Liturgy as being appropriate or inappropriate? For instance, Latin is a particularly appropriate language to use in Liturgical Music for various historical and cultural reasons, not because God prefers the sound of it over English or Tagalog.
"So what determines the various elements of a Liturgy as being appropriate or inappropriate? For instance, Latin is a particularly appropriate language to use in Liturgical Music for various historical and cultural reasons, not because God prefers the sound of it over English or Tagalog."
Continuity with the liturgical tradition is what renders a liturgy "appropriate or innapropriate". Fidelity to the liturgical spirit which has been passed on from our Fathers in the faith - expression of the same lex orandi which has nourished the Church's lex credendi. We've inherited a very specific and particularly rich liturgical tradition which we are called to remain loyal to. It involves Latin and Gregorian chant, which are intrinsic to the Mass - not simply ornamentations or impositions of personal taste. Any form of music that is opposed in spirit to the liturgy's proper music (chant) is totally innapropriate.
Unfortunately, this isn't a science. It demands a degree of common sense. It expects a humble submission to the tradition - a loyal discernment of what is in continuity with it, without attempts to impose novelty or personal taste.
If it has been condemned in Papal encyclicals, then it isn't in continuity with the tradition. If the manner in which the liturgy is conducted today would be utterly repulsive to previous generations, then that's not a good sign.
The liturgy falls under the discipline of the Church. The Pope and his direct collaborators determine the liturgical norms. To disobey them , as the Cardinal has done, not just this time, but time and time again, is to disobey Christ Himself. It is an infallible doctrine that the Pope has the Primacy (Matthew 16:19). The primacy covers all discipline in the Church, including what kind of bread is used in which rite.
Rock music is not of God. It is not beautiful and one cannot pray while listening to it. It is not liturgical music. Listen to Fr. Basil Nortz' OSA, talks ,"Music and Morality". The musical laws of the Greeks show which kind of music is beautiful. Rock music doesn't follow them. Also, Father's talk, "What is Wrong with Rock Music" is so hard-hitting. He only quotes from those who like, support,and make their living from rock music to make his case and not from the Bible or the Church's documents.
Yes, maybe the Church hasn't come out yet, and said which types are banned from Holy Mass, but it will! This is common sense. Who is there on the altar? It isn't us, though some think themselves demi-gods. How can anyone be thinking and contemplating Jesus dying on the Cross with that sensual and rauscous music? The other question is how many of those there at that Mass believe in the Real Presence of our Lord?
The beat of rock music is inimical and destructive to living cells. Rock music is an excellent mouse and plant killer.What is it doing to the 'cells' of the soul?
Paul et al
Again, you make sweeping conclusions without one specific example. So I will ask the question again: Give one specific example of why this Mass is invalid or illicit?
At this point, after two nights of rigourous socratic debate, we have one specific example of a violation of the Mass rubrix - wooden vessels.
So here is where we stand: Non grace conferring sacrementals, such as wooden vessels, electric guitars, heavey metal music, rainbow vestments and balloons, are responsible for the demise of western civilization, Satan's infiltration of the church, the death rattle of the Church and the diaspora of Latin Catholics to the Orthodox church. Very lucid!
So in the absence of a demur there was a valid sacrement of the holy eucharist at this mass. Here is my challenge question to you:
How do wooden vessels, electric guitars, heavey metal music, rainbow vestments and balloons reduce the efficaciousness of this sacrement.
Any takers? Make sure you know what efficaciousness means, be specific and stay on topic.
"We've inherited a very specific and particularly rich liturgical tradition which we are called to remain loyal to. It involves Latin and Gregorian chant, which are intrinsic to the Mass - not simply ornamentations or impositions of personal taste. Any form of music that is opposed in spirit to the liturgy's proper music (chant) is totally innapropriate.(sic)"
So per your instruction, both the Mass in vernacular and most music in vernacular fall outside the "rich liturgical tradition." In the same spirit, the very rich and specific liturgical traditions of the Maronite Rite, for instance, are what, chopped liver? Just because you say very loudly that one thing is not traditional and therefore very bad does not make it either.
"Give one specific example of why this Mass is invalid or illicit?"
Oh, that's not what I'm discussing. This liturgy clearly wasn't invalid, and may not have been illicit.
That's really not the point.
"So per your instruction, both the Mass in vernacular and most music in vernacular fall outside the "rich liturgical tradition." In the same spirit, the very rich and specific liturgical traditions of the Maronite Rite, for instance, are what, chopped liver? Just because you say very loudly that one thing is not traditional and therefore very bad does not make it either."
The other traditional rites of the Church are not chopped liver. I didn't even imply such a thing. I have great reverence for the traditions of the East. If only we demonstrated some sliver of the respect they show for their tradition!
Paul
Thank you for conceding my point and I would ask what is your point then.
"How do wooden vessels, electric guitars, heavey metal music, rainbow vestments and balloons reduce the efficaciousness of this sacrement.
Any takers? Make sure you know what efficaciousness means, be specific and stay on topic."
Well that's relatively simple to answer. The objective value of the sacrament isn't diminished. Even if the Eucharist were validly celebrated within the context of a black mass, its worth wouldn't be any less.
What is diminished is the grace communicated to those present, which is very dependent on their disposition.
The Sacrament is true grace and reveals what God thinks of us. The surrounding liturgy, music, etc. reveal what we think of Him. What do we think of Him? One look at this video would make anyone not sucking on a bong realize the answer: not much. It is trivialization par excellence.
And I say this as a heavy-metal guitarist. m/
"Paul
Thank you for conceding my point and I would ask what is your point then."
As I said, we need to look beyond the letter of the law to the spirit of the liturgy.
The liturgy is about an encounter with mystery. The more we introduce profane elements and tear down those hallowed actions which have nourished the Church's faith for generations, the more alienated we become from the liturgy's true spirit. The more difficult it becomes to have a genuine encounter with the great mystery of the Eucharist - an encounter characterized by humility, reverence, and awe.
Since no one was saying that the mass was invalid or illicit (as I pointed out above), what point did Paul concede?
Paul
Two good responses but lets take the inverse of this statements, "I said, we need to look beyond the letter of the law to the spirit of the liturgy"
What if the law of the liturgy was violated and not the spirit in this mass (if possible). What standard do we judje the spirit of the Mass or its presiders?
Furthermore I will again quote what I wrote last night: "What makes the sacrifice of the mass beautiful is not what is seen but what is not seen! Ever been to a mass at a hospital, soup kitchen, combat zone? (yes I have) It is just as beautiful as any Cathedral or Basilica. The design of the church, its statues, stain glass, marble, columns etc are all Sacramental. Sacramentals prepare us for the grace of the Sacrament; the same thing the lasers and rock music attempt to do. Certainly we can debate its appropriateness, effectiveness or even beauty or taste but to go off the deep end and use a five minute video as a metaphor for all that is wrong with the church. How Catholic is that?"
So to my first point, would you characterize a vernacular Mass as outside the "rich liturgical tradition?"
I can only speak for myself in this, but it seems folks are spouting a lot of "objective" truths in very subjective language. The "Liturgical Spirit" you speak of reminds me very much (in the way one can't quite put their finger on it) of the "Spirit of Vatican II." Mind you, I'm on your side when I see lousy liturgy like what's in the video, but I don't think I can call it "abuse."
OK bill912, your right!
Paul by "letter" did not concede but this post started with the feature story of "grave liturgical abuses" in a youth mass in Austria. Joseph a fellow theologian, Stephan, half a dozen others and I have asked over and over and over for anyone to name one specific example of a grave abuse. Wooden vessels are the only examples given (by you..good job). Is this all you got? My point is this: Minus bad taste, there was nothing wrong with this mass in the spirit or letter of the liturgy and it seems no one can specifically aurgue otherwise. I would say, perhaps erroneously, Paul conceded this point in "spirit." On the other hand, my guess is Paul would disagree. Plese do.....just give us some SPECIFICS why.
Home and children await my glorious return...have a great evening all and God Bless. I look forward to your responses!
Two principles of liturgy to consider here:
catabasis (divine condescension)
anabasis (elevation)
The way to visualize these two principles is like a wheel of fire. Catabasis descends from the top to the bottom and then precedes up the opposite side in return to the top.
Catabasis = Our Lord being present to us in the Eucharistic Sacrifice
Anabasis = the elevation of our nature through grace in return; includes all that we bring to the offering, including ourselves (first and foremost), our personal sacrifices, and our gifts including iconography, vestments, music, architecture, etc etc.
The Church assures us that nothing can inhibit the divine catabasis so long as it involves a priest in apostolic succession and the proper matter and prayers.
Anabasis, on the other hand, is another matter altogether. God may condescend, but our "return" and "elevation" depends upon an authentic synergia (synergy) between God and man - it is the work of the Holy Spirit in and through us. What we bring "to the table" if you will must in the very least reflect the sacredness of this great moment.. otherwise it risks inhibiting the movement of the soul towards God. It is not edifying...it does not build up.
This Mass, and virtually everything surrounding it, did not truly reflect the glory and holiness of the Divine Priest-King and His humble condescension to be with us...to be in our midst.
Rather it became a celebration of "ourselves". It is a target-market, entertainment driven type of effort that, oh yeah...has the Eucharistic Sacrifice as its center.
Efforts need to be made which help form the youth to make distinctions between youth-oriented prayer meetings and gatherings, and the Eucharistic Sacrifice. We cannot risk selling the youth on a bill of goods - that the Mass of all things must cater to their personal tastes or desire for fun and entertainment. I'm all for youth-oriented events and even contemporary Christian music and entertainment, but we need to properly catechize them about the different approach that the Mass requires.
Otherwise, we risk stunting both our own degree of openness to the anabisis of the Holy Spirit and our growth in Christian maturity.
Just my two cents...
Fr. Deacon Daniel
Paul:
You wrote "Only a hopeless legalist would demand documentation before he decides whether there's something wrong with that liturgy." Okay, so perhaps I am one for appreciating the near two millenia of Church Law as preserved by the Code of Canon Law; however, who cannot be? The Canon itself is a cornerstone to the Apostolic tradition.
Further, you contend that this is somehow now a "legal" accusation being made Mr. Peters -- I completely diagree! Mr. Peters is asserting grave liturgical abuse -- in case you may be unaware, there is such a thing as "liturgical law." Therefore, Peters accusation that the Cardinal is somehow committing a "grave" abuse of the liturgy is a LEGAL ACCUSATION.
Now although I can appreciate you serving as an apologist on behalf of Thomas Peters, I think that Mr. Peters owes his readers and the Cardinal a DETAILED and CLEAR accusation rather than pointed to "balloons" and "rock music."
The legalist,
Joseph
Jenb said:
"Why is it "irreverent"? Because you say so?? What if, like chrisacs alluded to, it opens the youth to really engage in the Mass? Is there any value in that? And then, once drawn in, we can assist in bringing them into deeper beauties of the Liturgy by chance? Possible?"
I just want to echo these sentiments. I was one of those where my faith began at a Steubenville conference. It was very much emotionally based, but that music, which was geared to my youth made me feel closer to God than I had ever felt. It carried me for several years before I found my real footing with regards to faith. These days, I wouldn't by choice go to a charismatic Mass, but it has its place for speaking to people where thay may be in their faith. And it certainly doesn't make the Mass invalid. My experience is echoed in countless friends whose faith life in the Catholic Church started this way, but has since grown to appreciate more traditional music.
And I know that people want to point out the bread as being the horrible thing, but I suspect it's really the music and lights that was the problem for them. They're just relieved the bread gave them the permission to call the whole thing a grave abuse.
Lauren,
Ironically, Christ likely used something to what we today would consider "pita bread." Any way, great post, excellent points and contrary to what others may say to you, your statement would definitely pass Canonical muster.
Christi est mea lux,
Joseph
The whole thing about the bread is just neo-conservative prejudice against all things middle eastern.
I spoke to an Austrian Dominican friar who knows the Cardinal about this Mass and he assures me that the Cardinal hates this sort of thing but feels that he must be kind above all else. The Cardinal, according to my source, is also aware that this clip is on the internet and that it is causing some few waves in the States. Apparently, the good Cardinal's sense of decorum and need to be polite are legendary in Vienna. The friar said that he himself was perplexed by the Mass b/c the Cardinal is anything "but a liberal." I asked the friar if the Cardinal understood that because he allowed this sort of goofy junk in the Mass, others would imitate him and use him as their justification. The friar didn't know for sure but said that he would pass along the tid-bit the next time he spoke with the cardinal! So, there you are...
Fr. Philip, OP
"The whole thing about the bread is just neo-conservative prejudice against all things middle eastern."
LOL!!!
Joseph,
"Ironically, Christ likely used something to what we today would consider "pita bread.""
No, he instituted the Sacrifice within the context of a Passover meal and used the unleavened bread prepared for that - just as we (normally) use unleavened bread in the Roman Liturgy.
And I thought you were a theologian? Missed Latin class lately?
"Christi est mea lux"
"Christus" is in the nominative.
And quit being such a legalist. We do not live by the law of a book (such as the CIC) but by the law of Christ, which is written on our hearts - and according to THAT law, disco lights in Church IS a grave abuse, even if no-one can be punished for it.
In Christ,
OK, Joseph, sorry to cast doubt on your Latin credentials. Thinking about it I assume you just forgot a "crux"?
In Joseph's Latin sentence, there is no way that Christi can be in the nominative. If it was, it would be plural (Christs!), but est is a singular verb.
Hi, I haven't read all the comments, but I found the rock atmosphere with balloons something I could never call Catholic.
I do not want grave abuses at the mass either. there should be however worship before the offical mass. If this was implemented you would see less liturgical abuses. being a revert to the catholic church I can see real blindness or religious prejudice aganist what the Holy Spirit is desiring
in the Church
Gideon Ertner,
You are in fact incorrect (although I did forget the crux in my haste to type the sentence) -- it should have read -- Christi crux est mea lux.
Now for a correction in regards to your response -- pita bread is an unleavened bread -- sometimes things require common application, not theology. So yes, Christ might have used something like what we use in the modern era known as "pita bread" or "unleavened bread."
Also I am confused. Is this disco rule written on all of our hearts, because I happen to be a fan of modern church services for young people, they keep them in the Church. I think Christ would concur with the modified service for young -- JPII did with World Youth Day and so did BXVI with World Youth Day...
I'm shocked...speechless...
As evidenced by the Cardinal's secretary's communique, the Mass may have been valid. However, grave abuse can occur without invalidity. This is precisely when the "Res sacramenti" is effected, but liturgical law is not followed. It is illiceity. The non-metal vessels alone constitute this. And although Canon Law and liturgical law never judge the internal forum, nevertheless, certainly in St. Thomas' mind, those responsible for cult can sin by not following liturgical law, since it is a sign of possible belittling of the authority of the Church, or culpable ignorance. Whether the cardinal was responsible or not (to me, he certainly did not look comfortable with what was going on), whoever receives the charge of preparing the liturgy is bound to know liturgical law.
Furthermore, Sacrosanctum Concilium 120 does lay out that the pipe organ enjoys pride of place, and that other instruments are only to be allowed on the condition that they are "suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use." People will always debate what that means in the concrete, but "sacred" has always implied separated from the profane, which is hardly done by rock music.
I'm with Thomas Peters. Even if the wooden vessels is all we can point to with certainty, there is a transgression of liturgical law here, which implies a lack of a general attitude of conforming to the established worship of the Church, which, according to St. Thomas, is precisely the sin of superstition (II-II, q. 93, a. 1) "In another way, falsity can occur in exterior worship on the part of the one worshiping, and this especially in common worship, which is shown through the ministers in the person of the whole Church. For just as he would be false who would propose some things on the part of someone which were not committed to him, so he incurs the vice of falsity who on the part of the Church shows a worship to God against the manner constituted by the Church by divine authority and customary in the Church."
Furthermore, art. 2: "If, however, there may be something which, so far as it is from itself, does not pertain to the glory of God, nor that the man of mind may be borne toward God, or that the concupiscences of the flesh be moderately refrained, or even if it be outside of the institution of God and the Church, or against common custom, (which, according to Augustine, is to be held for law), all of this is to be counted superfluous and superstitious since, standing only exterior things, it does not pertain to the interior worship of God."
Sorry, what previous good work by Cardinal Schönborn is there to admire? Surely the American Papist is joking? I'm not aware of any.
Schönborn supports giving holy communion to adulterers. He also hands out gongs to pro-abortion politicians.
The man's a disgrace and the gravely sick Austrian Church isn't going to get better until he's gone. He should be put out to pasture, where he belongs.
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