AmericanPapist Comments
Dreher is being too pessimistic and, from what you quoted, has a faulty reading of the cases involved. The question is not whether these Anglicans should be allowed to convert but whether their ministers should be ordained Catholic priests. Those are entirely different questions. Anyone can be Catholic but there is no right to be ordained. Dreher doesn't give much information in his diatribe against "liberals," but often there are practical considerations about ordaining an 80 year old man. Ordination if for service in the Church, it is not a right that is "due" to someone because they had been ministers in an ecclesial community.
Dreher is someone who jumped in Catholicism then into Orthodoxy. Read all his articles with that in mind.
There's a lot involved here and many moving parts. I don't expect much else to happen for a few months.
Does Orthodoxy accept the validity of Anglican orders? Has the Orthodox Church welcomed with open arms any of the Anglican parishes/dioceses/organizations that seek to convert?
I don't ask these questions to be snarky or to say anything against Dreher, but I do wonder. While there are certainly instances where the Catholic Church has been less-than-welcoming, and we can do much better, particularly here in the US, to roll out the welcome mat - extending the provisions of the Anglican Use liberally (in the truest sense of that word) - I also think we have done a decent job in many cases of providing a haven and a home for those alienated by their former ecclesial communion.
As a former Episcopalian, I would seriously advise Catholics to calm down about these potential conversions. Conservative Episcopal dioceses while in favor of traditional liturgy, family, and sexuality, may not be fully in line with ALL "that the holy Catholic Church believes, teaches, and proclaims to be revealed by God."
Especially important when dealing with mass conversions with the retention of the existing Anglican structure (diocese) is the danger of later schism.
Consider this: the Church hastily welcomes and ordains all of these Episcopalians and even ordains one a bishop. Two years later the Church says something they don't like and they decide to break away again. Now we have a large schismatic group with a Bishop.
People can fall into old habits easily and the Episcopalians have a HUGE deficiency understanding and submitting to authority.
If the meeting described was a genuine fruit of of the Holy Spirit, then it can be tested (like all potential converts). Questions need to be asked. Will you feel this way in a week, a month, a year? Why exactly do you want to convert? Is it because of anger, fear, lack of other options? Those things are not reasons for conversion. They do not represent true conversions of heart. Maybe the meeting was a political stunt in an attempt to gain more bargaining power in the Episcopal Church. Time will tell. So please, give it some time.
This is not to say there isn't truth to the claim liberals don't want to see traddy Anglicans welcomed into the Catholic Church (especially in England). Nevertheless, we should be cautious about making a fuss because we haven't seen enough visible action from our Bishops. Like the Traditional Anglican Communion, conversion to Rome rightly takes time. Discernment and testing of the desire to convert are essential to individual conversion not to mention large scale conversion not to mention ordination.
Rod Deher and others, let's all take a breath and wait and see. We may just be surprised at the result if the Holy Spirit is involved.
Okay, very complex subject, reported by very complex writer.
My experiences of Romans going Anglican vs. Anglicans going Roman is that we get their best folks, and they get our malcontents and cranks.
Dreher, meanwhile, simply has to reconcile with the Church if he wants us to take his analysis of Church matters at face value.
Sad about Dreher, isn't it? We lost a good one over the Priest scandal.
Now the OCA is having the same trouble that American Catholics went through (albeit on a smaller scale), and I guess he's too tired to be outraged again.
StatCrux is on target. I know some of these folks in Ft. Worth, though it is nice to see some of them approaching the bishop with the attitude of 'be it done unto me according to thy word.'
As for the Anglican Orders issue, keep in mind that a number of Episcopal Bishops have sought the Dutch Touch to fix a problem they recognize also.
This was surely the case in England a decade ago.
Wasn't there asong about this sung way back in the eighties by Boy George?..."Comema comema comema,comema comema Episcopalian, you come and go, you come and go o o oh ?....colors of red ,white yellow,gold and green...da dadadadadada...everydays about survival, you're my lover,not my rival? No? Never mind.
Thomas Peters: "Here I thought they were the inclusive ones."
LOL
I live in Fort Worth, and while I don't have ton to say about previous comments I can mention a few things about the Ft. Worth Diocese. While in the past Fort Worth has been a some what liberal diocese, things have gotten better. Guessing for two reason, one is Bishop Van, then second is just the liberals are the preist that were here when we split from the Dallas diocese and the are starting to retire. We have a number of former Episcopalian preist, some of which are in charge of a large more successful parishes. In addition to that we also have a small parish that is of the Anglican rite and has been a wonderful part of the diocese.
While in the past I have heard the comments of Fort Worth Episcopalians being more Catholic then the Catholics, It has been awhile. I would say the Diocese of Fort Worth is in a better place today if the Episcopalians were to gain communion.
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