AmericanPapist Comments
I only just read the first part, but the ending makes no sense. You don't take your temprature in the middle of the day, you take it early in the morning when you first wake up, the same time every day so it's accurate... seems they were just trying to find something to complain about.
I think it is excellent that this series is being written. I definitely think catholics as a whole have forgotten that children are gifts from God and we do not choose when and how we receive a gift.
I say this because I'm recently engaged and the #2 question from about 75% of my catholic community (#1 is when's the wedding) is "Are you going to have kids right away or wait awhile?"
It is the contraceptive metality sneaking into our everyday.
I think NFP is wonderful. It looks like the author doesn't really understand the subject. My wife and I have been using NFP since we've been married and it's helped us get pregnant and have two beautiful children so far. While we're waiting to have our third for a few months, NFP lets us do that. We took a class and got support from our teacher with any questions we had. It's like learning a language. You don't pick up a book on French and expect to master the language without a teacher to help with all the nuances. NFP is like a language your body speaks and you owe it to yourself to learn its pronunciations and vocabulary otherwise it's kind of like the tower of Babel.
I'm constantly amazed at how beautiful our gift of sexuality is. It's like Psalm 139 says, we are fearfully and wonderfully made!
The article is silly. The intrusion of the mundane into the arena of romance isn't 'ugly' - it's the stuff of marriage and family life! Sex can be awkward and even uncomfortable, babies come equipped with drool, poop, and loud crying, dream houses have yards that need mowing and gardens with weeds...and men and women need to GET OVER themselves and learn to communicate about all of these things.
One of the great goods of NFP is the way it can break the ice and free couples to talk to one another about sexual matters - something that an over-idealized hollywood version of romance leaves no room for.
I've read many a critique of NFP in my day, but this is the first one that relies on some ridiculous romantic 'Tuscan villa' to carry it's argument.
Pfah.
I guess this essay proves that misconceptions about NFP are very common. Only someone who knows very few facts, but rather myths about NFP, would start a series about NFP with a story about a romantic scene in which one person says to the other, "...did you bring the thermometer?" because, as anyone who knows anything about NFP would know, this would never happen. You do not take the woman's temperature before you have sex.
A couple who practices NFP knows when they should or should not have sex depending on if they are trying to postpone or acheive pregnancy. So therefore, I would argue the contrary: that a couple who does not use NFP, but rather some type of artificial contraception, would be much more likely to be placed in this predicament, asking one another, "Did you bring a condom?"
The thermometer question is, as noted above, silly.
What does this author think happens when the same couple are sitting around the table, savoring wine after a candlelit meal, when they give in to the passion of the moment, only to have the baby wake up and start screaming in the next room? Especially if the baby's poopy? Does the lack of aesthetic beauty in that situation somehow imply that stopping to change and feed the baby is morally ugly?
PS to AmP: I just found out my brother Dan is in your poker game. Small world!
I read both parts and the essay is not about NFP (even as practiced in its more complicated forms) but it is a good example of the required interruptions that modern contraception requires.
So I think that seen in a more parable kind of light it is wonderfully ironic in illustrating that people who complain about NFP putting a "crimp" on their style, already have to deal with a whole host of "ugly interruptions".
Just my take on the essays so far. Otherwise it doesn't make any sense to me.
I agree with Jessie about this sounding more like the interruptions due to modern contraception--"Do you have your diaphragm, dear?" Anybody who's been doing NFP for a while knows that the thermometer tells you when you hit phase 3, but it's cervical fluid that you watch before ovulation. So it would be very unobtrusive, and eventually one gets a feel for the usual cycle. It's silly to pretend there would be an unhappy surprise to break the mood.
I would say--try the Creighton method. Then you don't need a thermometer! : )
To help a novice with the discussion, do NFP practitioners time the wedding with the woman's cycle? What if that cycle is irregular?
What would be a good enough reason to care? Grad. or professional school still in progress? The woman's military unit going overseas? No house down payment and a rent situation that requires living with family?
Not trying for confrontation here, just practical answers from folks who've been there?
Thanks
As far as reasons to care, there is some disagreement as to the translation from latin, whether the reason should be "grave" or "serious." I would hope that anyone using NFP for spacing would have a spiritual director to help make the decision. The health of the mother is of great significance, I think, and the duration of breastfeeding, so I tend to favor wider spacing. Some folks have concern about finances, personal exhaustion, etc. I don't know about things like school and work--but it does make sense these days for a woman to have something on her resume just in case.
Evelyn, that helps.
How easy would it be for your average young couple to find a spiritual director to advise on reasons for child spacing? They aren't in the yellow pages, so what would anyone recommend for finding someone appropriate?
Thanks again,
Mary Mc,
Your local parish should have a family life director of some sort... they would probably be able to guide you in the right direction.
Sorry, folks. Not my parish. The diocesan person holding that position is not in favor of NFP. Nor is our parish priest. Not a rare situation in the U.S. right now.
I am a late convert to NFP and trying to find all the pragnatic pieces to help make it work for young couples I meet. I also have volunteered teaching middle-school Religious Ed. and hope to do so again. My class is the 2nd to the last stop before confirmation. If I can't give kids the tools they need for Catholic marriage, it might be a while before they run into it again.
Mary, maybe you could call the Couple to Couple League and see if they could help you make connections. It might not quite be local, but direction can happen over the phone pretty well.
I would strongly encourage anyone involved in this discussion to read the following two articles:
http://www.ignatius.com/magazine...rweb/
storck.htm
http://www.spokanecatholic.com/a...p?
nArticleID=15
Interesting articles. I can't help wonder, having read some pretty extensive blogging about how hard it is to abstain, whether there are many people truly using NFP for purely selfish ends. Would not the difficulty of abstinence halp to balance out the motives? If I had to guess, I would say that "those people" are more likely using FAM, and some kind of barrier method during the fertile times, or some other non-procreative form of sexual contact.
Kevin, the Ignatious article is very helpful for the history and the insight.
I've been struck by female NFP practitioners who really see the increased communication as a significant benefit of NFP. I've also spoken with one practitioner in particular, who would close the door to women's choosing to balance any thing else they want in life with child-bearing/rearing. Clearly a misunderstanding.
I'm happy that more people are taking NFP seriously. I still have to explain, after four years of courtship and 1 1/2 years of marriage, to my physician father-in-law that our NFP is not the Rythym Method of yesteryear. It's easy, ecologically friendly, and completely unobtrusive. My wife and I use the Billings Method, which is extremely accurate and takes about 3 seconds of your day to employ. Not what I, or any sensible person I imagine, would define as a moodkiller.
I find it strange that someone would consider stopping for a thermometer distracting, as opposed to a condom, spermicide or any other number of artifical contraceptives that require more 'effort' to use.
As a husband and father, I find it worrisome to hear NFP lauded as some great gift, art, language, or lifestyle.
It is nothing more than an allowance extended by the Church to those with grave reasons for postponing conception (and yes, a means of achieving pregnancy if needed).
I seems that in order to counteract the huge problem of most Catholics, shrugging off all Church Teaching on the matter of married sexuality, Natural Family Planning (an unfortunate name) is now promoted as a proper alternative, the moral standard for "child-spacing", when it is actually an exception to the rule.
I have to think that couples anguishing over the mechanics/rightness/wrongness of postponing pregnancy might need to take a closer look at the gravity of their circumstances.
Not being so presumptuous as to define "grave reasons" (as The Church Herself does not), I would recommend that couples consult with a faithful priest and consider another method of engendering the "right-sized family":
Ecological breastfeeding
Ben, ecological breastfeeding is taken into account under some methods of NFP. CCL (Couple-to-Couple League) is very pro-ecological breastfeeding, and promotes it extensively.
No matter what method of NFP is used, the choice to abstain must be made in the sight of God.
Right now, having another child would be a significant health risk for my wife (2 c-sections in 1 year have seriously weakened her uterus). Periodic abstention based on natural body signs is better for us than relying just on ecological breastfeeding (which just isn't possible with 4 older kids..the oldest is 5), and a billion times better than using anything artificial. My wife is already pining for #6...but for health reasons, we need to wait (with the last c-section, the doctor had to repair a 1" tear in the previous scar) until January at the earliest (they recommended a 2-year wait after the first C-section, but God had other plans.)
One often-ignored benefit of NFP is that changes in the natural rhythm of things can point to medical problems, which can then be investigated earlier and hopefully more easily treated.
You're absolutely right about the need to consult a priest...but I would recommend that to all couples, regardless of chosen method, and regardless if they're considering postponing children or having children.
@Matthew
I agree that NFP can shed light on underlying health conditions that would hinder conception.
I do worry that spiritual advisors and confessors refer couples too readily to The Couple to Couple League.
That organization tends to present N.F.P. (that name again, so close to PP!) as such a widely applicable natural method of achieving sterility, that one would almost rather they just come out and advertise it as contraception for us Catholics.
Apart from grave circumstances, God's way is often plainest way.
With all sensitivity to your family's experience (circumstances in which I take no issue with your conclusion, as if my input mattered!), I think it behooves the Church to oppose the invasive tactics employed by doctors to accelerate and micromanage births (i.e. C-sections, inductions, etc.) that so ravage a woman's reproductive system while harming newborns. Granted, in statistically very few instances such intervention is called for. These are so rare as to barely deserve mention.
A formal opposition to this medical/surgical meddling with the natural pace of birthing, along with an increased promotion in ecological breastfeeding would better serve to space children effectively while sparing many of us from the intellectual/ethical gymnastics needed to maintain an ongoing discernment of whether to increase or constrain family size. What happened to childlike trust?
This is one area in which we should take cues from all the other mammals.
Ben
Ben,
I'm not a huge fan of CCL...they're a bit too extreme for me.
I don't see why you think "NFP" and "PP" are so close of names...the shared "P"? It seems to be an attempt to demonize NFP by associating it with Planned Parenthood.
One does not "achieve sterility" with NFP. While some people could, in effect, use it to such ends, that is not what's going on. If anything, ecological breastfeeding is something that "achieves sterility", since it delays the return of ovulation (and thus, fertility).
God's way...God gave us thinking minds and free will. We have the ability to observe, and make decisions and take action (or avoid action) based on those observations. If done in a proper manner, following the teachings of the church, with serious discernment, there is nothing wrong with choosing to abstain from sex to avoid a pregnancy, or engage in sex to achieve one.
Regarding C-sections...I'm opposed to non-medically necessary operations of that sort. All those women getting a C-section at 8 months so as to avoid the 9th month stretching should have their heads examined.
My wife's case was medical necessity...my daughter didn't have a 3rd trimester. It was C-section or a dead baby. Needless to say, we chose a C-section, and 15 long weeks of hospitalization for our little girl. The second one was because, due to the incision that was safest for the above daughter, my wife can't safely opt for a VBAC. (It was a high vertical cut, across the muscles, instead of a low horizontal cut along the muscles. That allowed the doctor to gently lift Lily out instead of pushing her out an incision.)
I guess, though, that Lily, and many of the other babies in the NICU, are just statistical anomalies, and the procedure used to save their lives can be called medical meddling and be deemed unnecessary. Handled naturally, Lily would have died. Handled naturally, child #2 would have probably died. Handled naturally, my wife would have died along with child #5.
You advise us to take clues from all of the other mammals. That's fine, if you want to be an animal. But we're made in the image and likeness of God, and choosing not to use our intellect, our God-given talents, our free will, our self-control...that is inconceivable to me.
As Thomas said in this blog post, NFP is a very good thing, when used for appropriate reasons. That's one of the things I always make sure I talk about when my wife and I teach our class (the class is an hour-long presentation on the Church's position on marriage and sex within marriage, followed by an hour-long overview of the basic science behind NFP.) NFP can be use incorrectly (from a Church perspective) to close the husband and wife off from life as surely as contraceptives. For that matter, so can ecological breastfeeding.
@Matthew,
Again, I did not call into question the appropriateness of measures taken by your family, as it is no man's place to question. You did not extend me the decency of tempering your response accordingly.
This is not personal.
With every sensitivity, if this were an argument (rather than a discussion) of the issue of what constitutes proper circumstances for the practice of NFP, one would not "win" by citing exceptional personal trials that do not in a representative way illuminate the wider trend of people using NFP with a contraceptive mindset.
As for N.F.P.'s name, there is indeed a world of difference between on the one hand, exercising sexual constraint in the face of temporary/ongoing circumstances that are seriously non-conducive to new life, and on the other hand, parenting with a lighter shade of the same planning mentality that fuels the success of the abortion industry.
N.F.P...is very unfortunately named, as it misshapes John & Mary Catholic's views of Who is the Author of Life.
Now over-reaching and institutionalized, presented to the mainstream as morally licit contraception, NFP is not bringing about a resurgence of healthy-sized Catholic couples in the midst this barren culture.
...to the contrary, I do appreciate human superiority over the animals.
This is really not the right opportunity for you to extol the greatness of man (and thereby suggest his "family plan" should prevail).
I did not suggest we emulate animals' unbridled instinct to procreate.
I merely pointed to the natural spacing of offspring and maintenance of female reproductive health that results from their instinctive manner of birthing and nursing.
Ben,
I used my personal experience as an anecdote to show that there can be valid reasons for using NFP. Had I merely said "My wife has had two C-sections, and we used NFP to space our children", it could lead to misinterpretation. Without such inside knowledge as I provided in my previous post, it would be easy for one to leap to a conclusion about why we are currently using NFP to avoid a pregnancy, or why our youngest two daughters were born via Cesarean.
Neither of us knows how much discernment a couple has done regarding having a family. We have no idea if they've spent time in counseling with their priest. Much like someone going up to Communion...we don't know if they are properly disposed to receive Communion, but we should, in charity, assume that they've made a proper examination of conscience and Confession. Unless one is nosey or they public with their decision, it’s impossible for us to know how they are using NFP and why.
Your view on the name "Natural Family Planning" makes me wonder if you've gone to recent classes. It was quite clear in the classes I've attended that even during times of peak fertility, it's still God's choice whether or not a baby will be conceived.
Outside those classes, I’ve seen NFP looked at as "the fallible and laughable Rhythm Method" of the 1950s, or as "Catholic Contraception". In every case I can think of, the person making the comparison had never really studied any NFP method, and was just regurgitating things they had heard from somebody else.
Your concerns about Catholics using NFP as "Catholic Contraception" is valid. It does happen, I'm sure. But the classes I've been to all reinforce the concept of being open to life, and stress talking to a priest. The couple has to be responsible for how they use NFP, and are answerable to God for their actions. And, ultimately, it's up to God if children will grace their lives.
It's been my experience that couples using NFP are more open to life, and put much more thought into having children. The families with which my wife and I are friends (those where the mother and father are using NFP) almost all have 4 or more children, and most aren't done.
Regarding the greatness of man, and making use of natural spacing resulting from instinct...we are much more than instinct, and we shouldn't relegate the sexual aspect of our lives to be instinct-based only. We are to be good stewards over all the God has given us, including our bodies and our families.
My primary point, though, is that it's not your or my place to judge if others are using NFP with a contraceptive mentality...we aren't in a position to know such a thing. Nor should we say NFP is bad because some people may misuse it for the same ends as a contraceptive mentality. Instead of dismissing NFP as Catholic Contraceptive, we should make sure people know what NFP really is and how it is to be used appropriately, conforming not to the se
@Matthew
I appreciate your response, and I assure you that I am essentially in complete agreement with you.
And while I do have personal experience with NFP, that is not how I qualify my chief concerns with the technique/method.
I find nothing objectionable with NFP, in and of itself. Rather, I acknowledge that it can provide an scenario of honest reflection and discernment on the part of the couple.
I also trust that, in light of what you've said, you instruct couples in a responsible way.
So apart from that, my worries are:
1) The usual presentation of NFP as the way for Catholics, as a whole set, to limit their family sizes, which reduces the requirement of serious reason to a mere technicality deferred remotely to a priest's counsel.
2) The overemphasis on secondary, anecdotal, benefits of NFP (icreased communication, tenderness, mutual appreciation, etc.) to such an extent as to suggest that NFP enhances marital health and is the mark of responsible parenthood.
So, an allowance in cases of hardship has been commandeered by a full-fledged movement that in one breath calls parents of big, big families heroic, but then promotes NFP as the mainline, marriage-nurturing, and responsible approach to family life.
@ Mary Mc:
"To help a novice with the discussion, do NFP practitioners time the wedding with the woman's cycle? "
In my personal experience (sample population: 1), timing the wedding around the cycle would not be very helpful. Weddings tend to add stress, which often prolongs the time before ovulation. When the stress goes away, the egg arrives in time for the honeymoon.
GW, very good, very practical point.
So, would two Catholic law students be expected to avoid sexual relations during their honeymoon if they'd already paid their fees for the bar exam. and were unable to risk having the wife dealing with morning sickness during her big exam.?
Ecological breastfeeding seems like a great idea for at home moms but a bad idea for a woman with her own struggling business or shakey employment as a factory worker.
In my head, I'm trying to make NFP work for all couples. And by "work" I don't just mean have as few children as possible.The beauty of the belief that every conjugal embrace is open to life is over-whelming.
But, I'm trying to get past the idea that this also includes a one-size- fits-all approach for the rest of a woman's life. That a good Catholic can't also be a wife and a good lawyer or judge or actress, etc. All hard to do unless a couple is willing to avoid pregnancy at times.
When a woman or a man's vocation is split down the middle, tension is bound to ensue.
No easy formulations for that.
MaryMc, that's a really good point. There are so many moms in my area (I do lactation work) who because of work and school, just aren't going to be able to breastfeed, period, let alone practice ecological breastfeeding. They get six weeks maternity leave, tops, and no place to pump unless they are fortunate enough to work for one of the universities. They do get left out.
And I mean left out of NFP, not just ecological breastfeeding. Life is complicated, and I forget how easy I have it sometimes.
Wow, quite a discussion. As editor of The Contrarians' Review I obviously can't take aside in the ongoing debate but I am so glad that people are interested. I do think that those on both sides of the question stand to gain by an honest examination of the issue.
Thanks for linking to us Mr.Peters.
@Matthew
Quote: "Regarding the greatness of man, and making use of natural spacing resulting from instinct...we are much more than instinct, and we shouldn't relegate the sexual aspect of our lives to be instinct-based only. We are to be good stewards over all the God has given us, including our bodies and our families."
Twice misunderstood! :)
Can't let you keep asserting I'm that foolish!
I never encouraged looking to the animal kingdom for cues on the proper approach to human sex, or confining human sex to the dictates of instinct as the animals do!
Why on earth would I even be discussing the moral dimensions of human sexuality?
I was strictly pointing to the natural spacing of young resulting from animals' instinctual birthing...birthing...Birthing..and nursing – two instinctual skills that American women have been largely duped into denying that they possess.
Neither career women nor case-by-case health problems render these truths beneath consideration.
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