AmericanPapist Comments
Good for him! Italy does not have what many other European nations have -- an approved list of names from which parents may choose. This is a wise policy.
For whatever reason, "Mary" -- once the commonest female name in English, until it was displaced a few decades ago by the now-dated Linda -- has become quite uncommon in English as well.
We actually considered using "Maria" as a middle name, but wound up going with something else instead. Our kids are Sarah Elisabeth, David John, James Sebastian, Anna Frances, Nathan Andrew and Catherine Rose.
Obviously, we are fans of non-stupid baby names (although my Protestant MIL thought "Sebastian" was the weirdest middle name she had ever heard of).
Exercise for the reader: Guess which of our kids' first names was almost paired with Maria. :‑)
If Bishops preached Orthodoxy the people would care about the Saints.
Non-saint names means the Bishops have embraced liberalism.
A cousin of mine actually named his child Bode, after some Olympic skier or something ... the same skier that made an international ass out of himself. Now, that was a good name choice! Right.
While I agree with the bishop, I don't think a government-sponsored list of approved names like Katherine proposes is a wise policy. If the government controls the names people can name their kids, they can manipulate the list to their own ends. Besides it's the parents' right to name their kids and it's their responsibility to do so prudently, not the government's.
SDG was it Anna, which would give her the names of the grandmother and mother of Jesus?
Aren't Catholics required under Canon Law to choose a Christian name for their child (either the name of a saint or a name chosen from Catholic sentiment -- for example, wisdom)? What is the current understanding of that canon? I know that in some places priests will require a Christian name for baptism, but the child will be called by a different name in life ... which doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It seems to me that such a practice makes baptism a dead rite of passage without meaning. Shouldn't our identity be derived from baptism?
Anon,
Since I was born Catholic and named Dean Scott, I have to wonder too.
Either there's a St Dean, a St Scott or my parents set the bar pretty high for me.
"SDG was it Anna, which would give her the names of the grandmother and mother of Jesus?"
Right, Brian -- and that was our thinking too.
Slight downside, though: "Anna Maria" was the name of the rat-wife of the malicious Samuel Whiskers in Beatrix Potter's "The Tale of Tom Kitten," and when I read that story to my then-younger older children I gave Samuel Whiskers a sinister-sounding, old-world accent in the line, "Anna Maria, make me a kitten dumpling roly-poly pudding for my dinner" -- so that's how my kids would always hear that name in their heads!
Anyway, Anna Frances eventually won out for a number of reasons, saint-related and otherwise (I had an aunt Frances).
Oh, BTW, I agree with Brian in disagreeing with Katherine's (apparent) support for government lists of approved names -- in fact, I find that policy so ridiculous that at first I (apparently) misread Katherine's statement as saying that the "wise policy" was Italy's (and the U.S.'s) policy of not having such a list. We don't need more invasive government scrutiny into how parents fulfill their God-given role in raising their children.
I really wanted to name my first son Athanasius, but my wife nixed it. Ah well.
As far as a registered list of names is concerned, Norway tried that. They no longer have that particular restriction. It created an international free speech backlash. So yeah, maybe not.
Ironically, my Scandinavian husband and I are naming our second daughter, due in April, Mari Rose. Mari (pronounced like Marcy without the s sound) is the Scandinavian form of Mary, and WAS on the Norwegian approved list of names.
Bravo for the Bishop!
I'm not married, but I cringe at the names that parents give their children these days.
I find that as my faith deepens, I have developed definite opinions about names. When our first two children were born, we were average Catholics. We went to Mass most Sundays, never read the bible on our own and thought we knew everything. We picked names that reflected relationships in our life (Matthew Jacob, Megan O'Brien). Matthew was the name of my husband's best friend in high school and O'Brien is the maiden name of my much-loved grandmother.
When numbers 3, 4, and 5 came along, we thought more about using biblical names which reflected our conversion (Ryan Michael, Rachel Ann, Nathan Joseph).
Inadvertently our first born ended up with a very Catholic name, but it wasn't because we thought about it. If I had to do it again, I'd probably go more extreme and really think about Saint names.
Really, I thought "this" in Katherine's post was a reference to the Monsignor's advice, not to a legislatively mandated list of given names. No one wise enough to comment intelligently on this blog would advocate for such a government policy.
Who would ever ask who Saint Columkille is? I know education in this country is bad, but come on!
When my youngest daughter worked at Panera, she asked a customer for his name to pick up his order and he said to use "Al" because she wouldn't be able to spell his real name. Which turned out to be Aloysius, which my daughter, of course, could spell without prompting.
Her oldest sister is Anna Marie because Anna Maria sounded too sing-song for our taste. This girl was going to be Christina Maria, but is Christina Anne because she was born on the feast of St. Anne.
Hmm..., you might be right Richard A. Katherine, if I misread your post I apologize.
"Really, I thought "this" in Katherine's post was a reference to the Monsignor's advice, not to a legislatively mandated list of given names. No one wise enough to comment intelligently on this blog would advocate for such a government policy."
Whatever Katherine meant -- and she's certainly welcome to clarify her meaning, and I'd be happy to accept whatever she says she meant -- grammatically at least, "the Monsignor's advice" is the least natural of three plausible antecedents for "this." The more natural antecedents are (a) "many other European nations have … an approved list of names" or (b) "Italy does not have … an approved list of names."
Not only are these grammatically more proximate to "this" than "the Monsignor's advice" (which is adduced only by the oblique expression "Good for him!"), and thus apparently the substantial topic of K's post, "the Monsignor's advice" is not really a "policy." (But, again, I'll accept whatever K says she meant.)
As for K's wisdom and intelligent commenting, I wouldn't be surprised if at least some of K's posting at AmP over the months hasn't involved trolling with provocative comments she doesn't necessarily believe herself.
I wanted to name one of ours "Columcille", but the wife objected.
So I decided to use it as my Confirmation name instead, only I chickened out and went with the Latin version of the saint's name: "Columba".
We will never elect a President Tiffany.
Tiffany = Theophany. A very Greek and Catholic name, most suitably given to girls born on Epiphany.
Dean = Bl. William Dean. Convert martyred for being a priest. Aug. 28.
Scott = Bl. Sean Duns Scotus, of course, or any other Irish or Scottish saint you want to choose.
And Megan is a perfectly respectable Christian name, too. You can take it either as a female form of Margaret or the good St. Megan the Monk from Wales.
There's a lot of doom and gloom out there, folks, but no need to be sadder about the lack of saints' names than need be.
In general, one is obliged to have at least one clearly Christian name for Baptism or Confirmation. This can be the name of a saint, someone Biblical (better be a saint!), or a Catholic doctrine or feast.(Trinidad, Tiffany, etc.)
There's an old encyclical which forbids Catholics to give their kids Muslim names in order to "fit in". Some common Muslim names are also Biblical names and thus were okay, but "Mohammed" was a clear no-no. Don't know whether this is still in force.
The Irish had a lot of trouble back in the day with priests who didn't think old Irish saints' names were proper saints' names. So kids named Conor were baptized "Cornelius", that sort of thing. But now the problem is usually the opposite!
Anyway, my parents named me Maureen, which was a fairly common name in their youth and is becoming common again now; but when I was growing up, there were no other Maureens my age unless you went to another town. Now there's two other Maureens working for my company, and my head is always swiveling around when they're mentioned!
In Defense of Normal Names
http://cheekypinkgirl.blogspot.c...rmal-
names.html
What ever happened to the Italian custom of naming firstborn sons after their grandfathers? For the most part it insured that a saints name would be chosen. It also reaffirmed family bonds. Perhaps non-replacement birth rate in Italy which makes parents elect for oddball names....
OK, a few:
Basil/Vasilios/Vasily/Wasil
Josephat
Rafka
Addai
Aelia
Agabus
Agapetus
Akepsimas
Alipy
Hypatius
Cyriacus
Ampelus
Kuksha
Eleuchadius
Eusebius
Erkembode
Exuperius
Goneri
Gorazd
Hyginus
etc.
We have our own unusual names among the saints!
SDG,
My sister's name is Mary Frances after my grandmother. So pairing Mary with Frances sounds natural to me ya know?
But I see you were thinking in a different direction ;-)
Anyway, it is also possible to take names to the opposite extreme. I knew a couple who named their poor daughter Holy Trinity and a more normal middle name that I can't remember now.
When asked if the kid would be called by her middle name, the couple replied, "No, we are going to call her Holy for short"
My wife had our first-born on November 9 this year. His name is Thomas Jay and he and Mom are doing great. "Jay" is a family name on my wife's side and the name "Thomas" was insired by St. Thomas the Apostle, St. Thomas Aquinas, a string of Thomases I've had as pastors, and a certain blog writer.
I have a friend who has a friend who named her baby girl, wait for it... ABCDE.
The pronunciation by the report is "ABB-SE-DEE" with the emphasis on the ABB.
I bet she knows her ABC's.
Abb-se-dee? Yikes! That poor child!
I believe the current understanding of names for baptism is this: You may choose names that are family names, Christian, or at least not antithetical to the Faith.
I know a Catholic couple who named their daughter Isis. Since Isis is known to be the ancient Egyptian goddess of death, this would be considered antithetical to the Faith, so I think their priest made them add a Christian middle name, which they don't use, of course.
Our kids are Lucy Erin Elizabeth, Margaret Mary, Andrew Caspian Nicholas, Anne Catherine Bernadette, Susan Monica Therese, Peter Julian Benedict, and Maria Isabel Andrea. I am not sure what we can call our child that is due in February; I think we've used them all! ;o)
Thom,
I like Saint's names that people are less (or not at all) familiar with, it's a great tool for education and the forgotten Saints deserve to be someone's patron too!
In any case, my sons are Guillame Samuel and Pascal Johannes. Too weird for you? But nothing to blink at in Europe. And we managed to use names that have family and ethnic/heritage connections AND great Christian connotations (one a heresy-defeating Saint, and one the holiest of high holy days).
Unless you actually have heritage from a certain country, I find it unwise to name your child a cultural name.
Names should ideally not be difficult to pronounce, and if need be, anglicizing a name could be a possibility.
I am so proud of my name, Brendan. He is a saint, Irish (my heritage), unique but not hard to pronounce.
In Gaeilge (Irish language,) my name is spelled Breandán, but I spell it Brendan. It's such a beautiful name, in my opinion.
Brendan is a beautiful name; I will second your opinion Brendan. My name in Gaeilge is Fionnuala! My mother must have foreseen me emigrating one day and gave me the anglicized version, Finola. It translates as Fair Shoulder. She did name me Anne also so she did her duty and got the saint in there, thankfully!
My name's Mark, and my confirmation name is Luke. My little brother's name is Matthew, and his confirmation name is John. Yeah, my parents wanted our bases covered when it came to Gospel writers. :/
One of my son's has Theodor as a middle name since he was baptized on his feast day, Dec. 27. Theodor Graptoi, the written on, who had as a punishment for his defense of Church teaching, verses written in iambic pentameter carved on his head.
It comes back to catechesis.
Why would Catholics name their children after saints when they don't understand the rationale behind it?
We'll add this topic to a number of others which have been missing from pulpit-speech. It's not as high on the list as abortion, contraception, sacrifice, sin, virtue and a number of other important things. In fact, I think it just all folds in together.
It's a Catholic thing and anything which smacks of Catholic has not been popular for the last 40 years.
I am hopeful that this is changing though.
I know if I have children, I will name them after saints.
Someone asked me one time if I name my kids after saints, we will never have new saint names.
Katherine is the proprietor of the Catholics for Obama blog, so any Catholic who cares about Church teaching is sure to have a problem with most of what she says.
We already have hundreds of lists of approved names, they're called books of saint's names and can be found everywhere.
Not sure about your last piece of advice, Thomas. I think using obscure saint names is just fine.
Vincent, agreed. I was kidding. :)
It makes sense if at least one name is that of a canonized saint. But if every first name were the name of a saint from the beginning we wouldn't have many names in circulation. As a result, the canonized saints' names would be very limited. As it is, we have about a billion St Johns. (Not complaining; it's a great name--just saying...) And half a billion Thomases.
:)
I'm not arguing in favor of weird names. And yes, my children are named after saints and family members who were named after saints.
Most first names have meaning that was recognized once. Sometimes the meaning of the name would sound mighty odd to us as a name today. (Jesus named someone "Rock", remember?)
Sometimes (I learned this by looking up name saints/patrons for my CCD class) the meanings of certain St names are pagan. (In one class I had two girls who had been named after saints whose name referred to a goddess. Sooooooooo, if we balk before we think (or research), we could end up embarrassed.
I wonder what kind of ridiculous names Italians are choosing in lieu of the more Catholic nomenclature of the past. Since I'm pregnant, I've frequented BabyCenter.com's list of the top 100 names of 2007, and let me tell you that it is full of names like Cayden, Brayden, Hayden, Landon, Emerson, Madison, Addison and all kinds of trendy names that will probably be popular for two years and then fall out of fashion. I like respectable, decent names that evolved out of Christian culture and heritage. If it's a boy, we were going to name him Gabriel. However, it's a girl so we're going with Miriam after my husband's late mother. He, unfortunately, wanted to pick a name from Lord of the Rings such as Samwise, Aragorn, Luthien, Gandolf or something like that. I told him that the only member of this household that gets a name would have to be a dog.
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