AmericanPapist Comments
I can't wait for WYD SYD 08. Like you, I'm trying to find a way to get myself over there. We'll see...
My advice for you (and anyone else): If you do go, and you're looking for a much different experience than the 'Church youth group', sign up as a volunteer. I went to Cologne as a WYD Volunteer and it was incredible. I recommend it to anyone who is looking for something different, or does not have a group to go with.
Were you the one in the white skullcap riding in that neat car?
Tom,
you could come with the Saginaw group, I'm going and I know thats a big selling point for you..
Were you serving as a candle bearer?
You are located at the 1:40 point when the two servers are coming down from the altar carrying those huge candles!! Your the one on the left and the other one is Sean Mcnalley!!!
I win the prize right!
No fair BEING THERE, Joe. :P
Is anyone else concerned that the WYD theme song winner who will also perform at WYD is pro-homosexual lifestyle and pro-gay "marriage"? Our Catholic youth will look in admiration at Guy Sebastian and thereby listen to what he "preaches" publicly. Here's a snippet of an interview he gave back in October:
Question: There was a mini-debate about you saying you had a lot of gay friends and so were offended by the word "faggot", but that homosexuality surely clashes with your Christian beliefs?
Guy Sebastian: That's the sad side of Christianity. That's not how it's meant to be. I've been to gay clubs heaps of times. That's the old fundamentalist way of thinking that's unfortunately spread through all these generations. They miss the whole point of Christianity which is love. God loves people whether they are black, white, gay, straight, bisexual, whatever. As a Christian, we're never going to get close to being sinless or perfect, and I'm no better than anybody on this earth, but our No.1 goal is to be as loving as we can. We aim to be like God, so for me, I think that's a really ugly side of when people get lost in religion. It's funny, Shannon (Noll) gets called that, Anthony (Callea), all my friends in the industry. That's the word everyone picks -- as soon as you're in the industry you're gay.
Question: You're not anti gay marriage?
Guy Sebastian: I'm not really anti anything. If you're a gay couple why not? I don't really have a stance because I don't know what it's like to be told you're not allowed to marry somebody. That doesn't seem fair to me.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun...37-
2902,00.html
So we need another archbishop Burke over there?
And I spotted Thomas too. Hurray!
Exactly what is your agenda Deborah. Guy Sebastian is not pro Gay marriage or any thing else like that. He just does not believe in criticising other people or their lifestyle. He is also a committed christian.He believes in tolerance and understanding to others, something all christians should believe in. Perhaps you should take a leaf from his book. And also learn not to twist the words that are printed in newspapers. A finer, kinder, more principled, or more talented song writer for the song to represent the World Youth day could never be found.
Deborah - Guy Sebastian is Australia's most respected and well loved Christian singer. It is sad that you would prefer to nit pick over small personal beliefs rather than look at the heart of a person and the joy that he is giving those attending this great conference.
Reread your post - is this the impression you want to give the rest of the world about Catholics?... adhere to all our Catholic doctrines or we will have nothing to do with you!
Actually the organisers of this event did not specify that the songwriter had to be Catholic, so all Christians were invited to submit a song so long as it fitted the spirit and theme of the conference.
Think again Deborah and enjoy the blessings that are to come out of this great event. This is a time to put away the differences and enjoy worshipping Jesus together. Guy will sing with his heart and God's love will flow, be assured of that.
Deborah, I think Mr Sebastian is mainly pro not trying to dictate to everyone how they should live. I, and many other Australian Christians and Catholics, find him to be a breath of fresh air. Also, from what I've read, he seems to be a Christian first and doesn't follow any particular version of Christianity. So as a non-Catholic the only role he's likely to play in the proceedings is that of a singer/songwriter. I have a lot of his music - Christian and commercial pop/rock/rnb - and he does have a wonderful voice, so let's just enjoy.
So I suppose my answer to your question is: No, I'm not concerned.
Meg, please reread my post. Guy Sebastian IS in fact pro gay "marriage" according to the Australian newspaper interview. When asked if he is anti gay "marriage" he says, "If you're a gay couple why not?"
I'm sure he is a very nice guy and so are alot of others who vocalize their moral stances which are against the Catholic faith.
If anyone thinks it is appropriate for someone who publicly supports the homosexual lifestyle and gay "marriage" to in anyway represent our Catholic faith at a WORLD wide Catholic event then you must also think that the bishops are wrong who prohibit speakers and musicians who publicly support gay "marriage" and/or abortion.
I'm sure many faithful Catholics will be very upset over this, especially parents. The WYD organizers have been notified and hopefully will make the right decision.
Again, I'm sure Guy is a great guy and maybe okay on some other Christian issues however he is dead wrong in supporting gay "marriage" and should not in anyway give the impression of representing the Catholic faith just because he's nice and has a good singing voice.
Also, I believe the song was recorded this past week by Guy with two other prominent and exceptional Christian singers. So if you're successful in your sad endeavour, Deborah, at least we'll have that.
And The Vatican and their selection panels can Google too, y'know. I'm sure that article isn't news to them.
Deborah - If you are looking for Mr or Ms perfect then you won't find anyone.
Of course you can choose a song by someone unknown so that at least their opinions (and differences in dictrinal beliefs) have been unreported, then you can be safe... at least until they open their mouth with a microphone in front of it, or someone exposes their bakcground. But it won't make them any more worthy of singing the theme song.
The organisers who chose the song know that Guy is not Catholic, but they do know he is Christian and that is the what matters to them.
I stumbled across this looking for information on World Youth Day for my children.
I'm not Catholic, but thought that the World Youth Day sounded like a wonderful way for young people to come together from all over the world.
I must admit to being quite shocked at Deborah's post.
Surely not all Catholics share her views?
Guy Sebastian is a talented singer/songwriter. A wonderful role model for anyone,especially youth, who would never judge others.
" As a Christian, we're never going to get close to being sinless or perfect, and I'm no better than anybody on this earth, but our No.1 goal is to be as loving as we can."
Sounds good enough to me!
Well, I'm shocked at people's reactions over Deborah's post. Oh, yeah, Guy Sebastian is such a wonderful Christian, he supports gay "marriage"! Oh, you see, he doesn't believe in dictating people how to live. You know, because that's not what the Bible does at all.
It is true that it would be impossible to find a good theme song by a solid orthodox Catholic singer. Mainly because a singer like that hardly exists. But rushing to defend his Christianity, which clearly he himself doesn't bother to defend, is silly. How did Deborah twist his words - she just quoted him! A guy who says "I've been to gay clubs heaps of times" can't be all that Christian after all.
Oh boy!Where does all your anger come from? So sad.
It is sad that you Nutcrazical are more incensed by the people defending Guy Sebastian that the vicious smear campaign by Deborah. Guy is indeed a devout christian who upholds christian values. But he is the type of christian I admire most. One who can live a christian life style without criticising others. He has only basically said in that article that he accepts others rights to live their lives as they see fit. Perhaps if more religious people had that attitude, the terrible wars that have been started by zealots, no matter which faith they follow would not have occured. Live and let live is Guys' motto, and mine too. I do not support Gay marriage, but agree with Guy that people have a right to live the way they wish. You should read the bible more carefully and if you did you would realise Christ himself did not try and tear down others. I think he would be frowning on the two of you at the moment.
To Deborah and Nutzrazical - I would suggest you take a leaf out of Guy Sebastian's Bible and contemplate the words of Jesus in Matthew 7:1 - Judge not, lest ye be judged!
Error has no rights. No one has the right to be wrong. Guy Sebastian has no right to be wrong, which he is by supporting gay marriage.
Guy is indeed a devout christian who upholds christian values. But he is the type of christian I admire most.
No he doesn't uphold Christian values, or at least the Sacrament of Marriage, because he supports gay marriage. I'm so sorry that you admire him.
Tonight I watched Guy perform, as guest vocalist with the Australian Philharmonic Orchestra. Am I happy? You betcha!
Thanks, Deborah, for that quote by Sebastian. It looks like World Youth Day Australia is already on the wrong track if they have asked him to write the theme song. I wonder what Cardinal Pell thinks.
"Christians" like Guy Sebastian are actually far more insidious and dangerous to the Church than the most vocal gay rights activists and pornographers. Anyone can look at Act Up and other groups that throw condoms in churches and know immediately they are wrong and what they stand for should be condemned.
Sebastian--from the quote above--feels that one can be a true Catholic and at the same time go to gay clubs, have gay sex, and even get "married" as long as you promote "love" and are not "judgmental." You can pick and choose what you believe in as long as it doesn't inconvenience your lifestyle choice. By no means should you ever condemn others' lifestyles. This is the worst form of the Modernist heresy.
Being discerning is not being judgmental, and one can easily discern from Catholic belief that Sebastian is wrong and that he is not a good choice to be performing at World Youth Day.
One newspaper article, with deliberate questions asked to get controversial responses. Guy was damned no matter which way he answered. It is the only time he has ever spoken about Gay marriage. As I said before he is no more a supporter of Gay marriage than I am. He just believes in allowing people to live their lives as they see fit. He is not a Catholic, he follows another faith, but it is not required that he is Catholic to write the song. He lives a christian lifestyle, and attends his church regularly. He spends a great deal of time in charity work. He is an ambassador for World Vision, and has done much charity work for Ronald Mcdonald House Childrens' Charities. In one period of time 16 out of the 18 appearances he did were for free for charities. Just because he is not willing to condemn others for the lifestyle they choose does not mean he supports them. You are very bitter, angry people. So sad you didn't spend more time doing good in the world like Guy, and less time casting stones. Strange that he is often laughed at by his peers in the music industry because of his christian beliefs, and yet here he is called a non christian. I will make no further comment here. I have better things to do with my time than argue with bigots.
Having briefly scanned through this comment thread it is very clear to me that a special post on this topic could be helpful. I'll try to compose that the next time I get some sustained time on a computer with internet access. Thanks and please keep the discourse charitable.
Anne, it's charity to correct people when they are wrong. Furthermore, all other religions other than Catholicism are false religions. They aren't revealed by God, so you can't expect the Truth to come out as fully as It does with the Catholic Church.
Just because he is not willing to condemn others for the lifestyle they choose does not mean he supports them.
Do to others whatever you would have them do to you. If I were living in that kind of sinful lifestyle, and I didn't know the Truth, I would want someone to tell me the Truth.
You are very bitter, angry people.
Well I'm not bitter and angry. So don't read emotions into comments on a blog - it's impossible to tell subtle differences in tone with only text.
Jesus said "if you love me, keep my commandments". Well it's a commandment that only a man and a woman can get married, not those of the same sex.
I will be praying for this situation, those going to World Youth Day (which may include me) as well as for Guy Sebastian.
I'm still shocked to see that such anger & condemnation against such a open,honest young Christian man is alive & well in the Catholic Church.
He was invited to write & sing a song by your Church.
His only "sin" in your eyes appears to be that he won't judge others?
Please tell me this isn't the case?
[i]"Christians" like Guy Sebastian are actually far more insidious and dangerous to the Church than the most vocal gay rights activists and pornographers.[/i]
This observation/opinion is so very very wrong & so hurtful.
If that is the general view of Catholics on this issue,I feel sorry for you.
No wonder numbers in your Church are lessening. SO SAD!
Can you seriously tell me that all catholics world wide are sinless and perfect?
I can't think of a better person than Guy to write and perform this song,a christian that is loving giving and excepting of people.
I sure would'nt like to be a gay daughter or son of catholic parents.
What would you do?diss own them,they probaly have to live a lie the rest of their life and hide it i guess you will next say that catholics are't gay.
Can't wait to hear Guys song a christian thats full of love.
BRING IT ON Whoo ooh!
Im catholic and I have a gay child who I absolutely adore and am very proud of. I applaud Guy Sebastian for his stance on homosexuality and gay marriage. Good for him. Live and let live, thats my moto too. I am very proud that Guy's song has been chosen for world youth day. I cant wait to hear it. He is a fine young man and a wonderful role model for Australias youth.
I am so glad Bob that you as a Catholic have been able to accept your son and still support and love him despite him being gay.
"Im catholic and I have a gay child who I absolutely adore and am very proud of."
Many parents whether christian or not have unfortunately not been able to do this. This is all that Guy is doing as well, accepting and respecting people as they are and not turning away from them. Of course if some of the comments I have seen here are anything to go by, then you may well be as evil as Guy in their eyes.
Sally, this is very arrogant of you to say:
No wonder numbers in your Church are lessening. SO SAD!
The number of Catholics in Brazil are less than they were 10 years ago, yes. But the percentage of Catholics in Brazil has stopped dropping. Its a fact.
If you think that all the Church cares about is getting big numbers, or if that's what you think is important you are wrong. One of the Catholic Church's main goals is to spread the gospel & save souls. Sorry, we're not here to make money and get as many members as possible by taking out whatever parts of the Bible that people don't like.
I think everybody needs to just relax...that is if the people posting comments supporting Guy are actually more than one person. Don't assume that one post by one person makes up the viewpoint for the Church. Nobody is saying Guy is going to hell. They are worried because they feel that Guy is pro-homosexual lifestyle and pro-gay "marriage" and that this wouldn't be the right message to send to young people.
Although I said I wouldn't comment again, I feel the need to answer some of the strange comments I have seen.
"..that is if the people posting comments supporting Guy are actually more than one person."
Perhaps only someone who would think
of that Lauran, is doing exactly that. I can quite imagine many of the comments comdemning Guy are indeed coming from one person.
"Well I'm not bitter and angry. So don't read emotions into comments on a blog - it's impossible to tell subtle differences in tone with only text."
I take it then Andrew, that I can now read Mein kampf and any publication by the Klu Klux Klan and understand that there is no bitterness or anger in their words, as I can not possibly interperet their words as being angry, bitter, or even hateful. Or that I should perhaps view this statement below made on another site against Guy, as not being angry, bitter, or hateful.
"he needs to murdered in the most brutal way possible...i'd go for letting a thousand rats eat him alive."
Words can protray those emotions Andrew. They are a powerful tool that can show bitterness, anger and indeed hate. They can also show kindness, love, and tolerance. Personally I prefer Guys' words to yours.
Sorry if my comment came across as "very arrogant" I truly was shocked by all the negativity!
Your assumptions re my thoughts on what the Church cares about are wrong too...
I must admit though,I feel that the negative posts & assumptions here & popping up on other catholic sites about Guy send a much worse message to people.
There are 100's of articles/interviews on Guy & these sites appear to have picked a few words from one & run with it.
Quotes from Catolic sites in the last 24hrs...
"Our Catholic youth will look in admiration at Guy Sebastian and thereby listen to what he "preaches" publicly."
"This is the same Guy Sebastian who ridiculed Catholic teaching against homosexuality"
"The approval of a theme song written by a pro-homosexual rock star is yet another indication of what we have said for years: that World Youth Day promotes a counterfeit religion foreign to Catholicism."
"Catholics should not only boycott World Youth Day, but they should also immediately write to the Vatican’s Pontifical Council of the Laity, and to the Congregation for Worship and the Sacraments to protest this mockery of the Catholic religion."
"Yet another reason to hate WYD"
"So far I'm unconvinced that this means he's a dedicated gay-rights campaigner, but perhaps it would be useful if he could be urged to clarify his understanding of the Church's teaching..."
"So we are allowing somebody to aid the youth of the world in coming to the knowledge and path of Jesus whose vision of the Way is radically opposed to the Church’s vision, which is to say radically opposed to God’s vision."
"No he doesn't uphold Christian values, or at least the Sacrament of Marriage, because he supports gay marriage. I'm so sorry that you admire him."
Here's an article which gives a more honest insight into what Guy is about.
http://www.news.com.au/
adelaiden...5006343,00.html
I agree that everyone should relax...but where's the love & tolerance?
MESSAGE OF THE HOLY FATHER
BENEDICT XVI
"On the occasion of the 22nd World Youth Day that will be celebrated in the dioceses on Palm Sunday, I would like to propose for your meditation the words of Jesus: “Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another” (Jn 13:34)."
There are hints of great misunderstanding in some of these posts.
Guy isn't Catholic, so he doesn't need to understand the Catholic church's teachings, but I'm sure his Catholic best friend and backing singer enlightens him somewhat.
Guy doesn't preach on anything. He only comments on his religion / virginity when specifically asked.
He's not a gay rights advocate. He's not even gay. 'Jules' is a nickname for Julie, his girlfriend.
(He's not the slightest bit politically inclined either. When asked once, he said, 'I don't know anything about politics. I should read a book about it so I can have a conversation on it.')
To the intolerant posters in this thread, all you do is give people a reason to have a negative view of Catholics.
Someone mentioned the fact that most of the posters are women. I don't know why that is. It might just be that someone who's openly Christian, virgin and gay-tolerant in Australia isn't seen as a 'man's man'. Guy certainly has plenty of male fans of his music though.
I am Vivienne and haven't used any other name on this forum.
As I said before, anyone can google and I'm sure the people who chose the song did that too.
Let's all just relax and wait for the music. It might just be something really wonderful.
Anne/Sally/Vivienne/Meg/Bob/Wakeup-
Why don't we just invite Madonna, Prince, or George Michael to sing and Oprah to host if "tolerance" and being "nonjudgmental," "full of love," and "alive and well" are the only characteristics one needs to be "Christian?" Guy Sebastian is just as "Christian" as they are.
Also, Guy sounds like a terrible role model for youth, completely uninformed, inactive and passive against the onslaught of postmodern values, and proud of it:
When asked once, he said, 'I don't know anything about politics. I should read a book about it so I can have a conversation on it.')
Also, he sounds just like the devil here, who is not "anti anything" either. If it feels good do it! Why not! Who cares, as long as you are full of love:
I'm not really anti anything. If you're a gay couple why not? I don't really have a stance because I don't know what it's like to be told you're not allowed to marry somebody. That doesn't seem fair to me.
In short, this guy a horrendous role model for youth, and it is outrageous that the Catholic Youth Day organizers would pick him to sing and write the theme song. It might be the theme song for moral relativism and postmodernism but definitely not Catholicism.
“Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another” (Jn 13:34)."
He said a heck of a lot more than that. And He showed His love by being a firm and loving Father who lived by example. Christ was not some Guy Sebastian walking around simply saying "Do whatever. Who cares. Don't be judgmental. Show love." No one would have followed Him much less wanted Him to be killed.
As Catholics, we are called to be countercultural and informed. Guy is the opposite of that.
Let's write Cardinal Pell and ask him to comment on Guy's selection:
http://www.sydney.catholic.org.a...u/
contact.shtml
And use some of Anne/Sally/Vivienne/Meg/Bob/Wakeup's quotes to show the danger of Guy being a role model for young Catholics.
I take it then Andrew, that I can now read Mein kampf and any publication by the Klu Klux Klan and understand that there is no bitterness or anger in their words, as I can not possibly interperet their words as being angry, bitter, or even hateful.
[...]
Words can protray those emotions Andrew. They are a powerful tool that can show bitterness, anger and indeed hate. They can also show kindness, love, and tolerance. Personally I prefer Guys' words to yours.
The point is that you read into my post. I wasn't emotional when I was typing it. I'm not yelling at my computer screen. And there is no bitterness and anger either. If you love Jesus, keep his commandments, so don't support gay marriage.
I agree that everyone should relax...but where's the love & tolerance?
Tolerance is not a virtue. And the word "tolerance" is no where to be found in the Catechism.
I'm sorry to hear that tolerance is not a virtue, Andrew, and that my efforts to retain some calm understanding of the rubbish being spouted in some of these posts won't gain me points for heaven.
It's also clear that many of you have decided your church leaders are idiots and don't know how to handle anything as simple as choosing a song. I say 'your' because these days I'm just a Christian.)
I'm off to work. Have a nice day.
I heard Guy was in the recording studio last week recording the song.Not long now to hear what the beautiful Guy and his best mate and backup singer catholic friend Gary have come up with.My catholic friends sure haven't judged Guy on a news paper article without getting to know him.
Its obvious that you are all annoyed at the fact a catholic did'nt write the winning song.My catholic friends are sure nicer.
Thats the last i'm saying not worth the arguement.
Question to those of who think it's a good idea to have a WYD performer who is pro-gay "marriage", pro-homosexual lifestyle and who frequents "gay clubs heaps of times":
Do you agree with the CATHOLIC CHURCH'S TEACHINGS that the homosexual lifestyle and gay "marriage" are immoral and evil in God's eyes and that even those who support such things are also guilty of serious immorality, whether it be a pop star or politician, Catholic or non-Catholic?
In fact the more public the person the more serious the fault lies since they mislead so many others. Do not attack me or other faithful Catholics for following the Catholic Church's teachings if you have a complaint and don't like the Catholic faith then go and complain to Our Lord, Jesus, and the Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI.
"WakeUp," nobody is annoyed that a Catholic didn't write the winning song. WYD is a CATHOLIC event, started by a CATHOLIC Pope. No one has ever said "Hey Lutherans, you can't come!" So why would you think that we are mad that a Catholic didn't write the winning song. All we care about that its a good song & that the singer is a good Christian. Guy may be a very nice fellow, but people are worried about his position on gay "marriage" & that he is pro-homosexual lifestyle.
Perhaps only someone who would think
of that Lauran, is doing exactly that. I can quite imagine many of the comments comdemning Guy are indeed coming from one person.
Anne, I don't think its fair to accuse me of posting all comments that are not 100% in love with Guy. You have NO proof. I only wrote with this name which is my REAL name. I put my email, did you? All I'm saying is that sometimes there can be trolls (who "support" Guy or dislike his position on gay "
marriage") who fill a comment box with irrational comments. Not saying that everyone is doing that so don't attack me.
"Sorry if my comment came across as "very arrogant" I truly was shocked by all the negativity!
Your assumptions re my thoughts on what the Church cares about are wrong too...
I must admit though,I feel that the negative posts & assumptions here & popping up on other catholic sites about Guy send a much worse message to people."
Sally, I'm glad to hear that you don't feel that about the Catholic Church, because your post truly made me feel like you did. I just thought that was quite mean & arrogant of you to say. Also, some of the quotes that you posted aren't negative.
For example:
This is the same Guy Sebastian who ridiculed Catholic teaching against homosexuality."
"So far I'm unconvinced that this means he's a dedicated gay-rights campaigner, but perhaps it would be useful if he could be urged to clarify his understanding of the Church's teaching..."
"So we are allowing somebody to aid the youth of the world in coming to the knowledge and path of Jesus whose vision of the Way is radically opposed to the Church’s vision, which is to say radically opposed to God’s vision."
"No he doesn't uphold Christian values, or at least the Sacrament of Marriage, because he supports gay marriage. I'm so sorry that you admire him."
Again, none of these people think that Guy is the worst person in the world or the Devil. I also think he should clarify his comments because they seem very wishy-washy to me. But reading the quote as it stands it would seem that he supports homosexual lifestyles. As Gabe said Guy seems to have an attitude of "Do whatever. Who cares. Don't be judgmental. Show love." As Catholics & Christians we should defend our faith, not make it politically correct to please others. Being tolerant doesn't mean washing down your faith to please others. Christ didn't do that.
About the "negative" p
(continued)
About the "negative" posts sending a bad message to people. As I said above, not all the posts are negative. People are standing up & defending their faith, whether it is politically correct or not. Don't assume that one post by one person makes up the viewpoint for the Church. If there are some rather mean comments by people that attack Guy and have no substance thats one thing. But when people stand up & defend their faith its another. They aren't bigots because of that.
"The point is that you read into my post. I wasn't emotional when I was typing it. I'm not yelling at my computer screen. And there is no bitterness and anger either."
Andrew I did not refer to you personally as being bitter or angry.I was referring to all the posters who are slinging these harsh words about a very quiet, unusuming, Christian young man. But I am seriously beginning to think you are not the most intelligent person I have conversed with lately. Words can betray many things, as I said. Anger does not have to be typed in capital letters or have silly icons on it to show itself . Perhaps you have been visiting too many forums. Words show many things. They show ignorance, lack of understanding, hate ect. All these things have been shown by the one or many people who are comdemning Guy because of the one newspaper article. Anyone who has ever read newspaper articles as well, should have the sense to know exactly how the press likes to twist things, and play with words to get the papers sold. I have read many stories in the last few years painting a terrible picture of the Catholic church. If you want me to I believed every story I have read, I can assume that the Catholic Church is full of child molesters and very depraved people, and also tortured young boys brought to Australia during the war from England. And also that many in the Church, not only did nothing to stop, but actively supported the anhilation of 6 million jews during the Second World War. If I am meant to believe every word I have read in the press, and also twist and make my own conclusions on them, then I can only assume that you won't be offended if I now believe the Catholic Church is not a good role model for my children, or even a safe environment for them.
Guy does not, as one person said, lead a "Gay lifestyle". He is not Gay. He is hetrosexual, and has been the same girlfriend for 7 years. A girl who he met in church. He just does not believe in preaching to others. That is as far as him being pro gay marriage would go. He is not a member of the Catholic Church, so does not need to preach about its' teachings as one writer here suggested. He has only written the song. And going on his previous gospel songs written for his church, it will be a very fine song indeed. Guy once said that the only book he had read more than once was the Bible. Perhaps more of you should spend more time reading that, and less making conclusions from newspaper articles.
I'd like to say, regarding the newspaper article, that Guy's comments received little or no attention at the time of publication. Mountains are being made out of molehills.
Having read through this I am glad that I am not a Catholic, nor do I follow any particular religion anymore. This is what religion does to people, and I would rather go to a quiet place and have my conversations with God, and find my peace that way.
The Catholics on here do not show tolerance to their fellow man, something I'm pretty sure Jesus preached. To publicly denigrate a young man who you don't know personally, to base all of your opinions on one newspaper article, and as I saw on another Catholic site, to make fun of his appearance,and want him fed to the rats, surely wouldn't sit well with your God. Doesn't God preach love and understanding towards your fellow man?Maybe I've been reading the wrong Bible all these years. Is yours different maybe ?
Guy is the most non-judgemental person I have ever known. He doesn't try to push his views on anyone, but if asked about his Christian beliefs, his decision to stay a virgin until marriage etc, he answers honestly. What the newspapers do with his answers is anyone's guess.
Guy also loves with an open heart, something not evident from the Catholics on this site. You are certainly not giving a good impression to the world with your uncharitable views. I think I now know why all my Catholic cousins denounced the faith many years ago.
Give me Guy with his giving, loving heart and views towards his fellow man any day. He has a heaven sent talent, and I can't wait to see him sing the song on the steps of the Opera House when it is presented to the world soon. I also can't wait to see his presentation to the Pope on his visit next year.I'm sure that will go down well with you, judging by the theme of your angst.
Inez
Anne, Do you agree with the Catholic Church's teaching, meaning Christ's teaching, that homosexual activity and gay "marriage" are immoral and evil? Do you then agree with the Church's teaching that those who support gay "marriage", especially public figures, are also guilty of a serious immoral action?
Honestly, I agree that Guy should be given a chance to comment on the news story and I sure hope he says something like, "they totally misquoted me and twisted my words" and then I hope he says "God intends for marriage to be between one man and one woman and homosexual activity is wrong".
However, there are other news stories with his comments which give the same kind of approval of homosexual activity and gay "marriage". Maybe they're all wrong? Maybe? Maybe not?
This is not a personal attack on Guy at all this is about protecting our Catholic youth from being further influenced by secular, immoral thinking and defending our Catholic faith from being further tarnished.
Imagine someone singing the national anthem of a country in front of the entire world when that same person had just publicly ridiculed an issue which that country stands for. Wouldn't happen!
But I am seriously beginning to think you are not the most intelligent person I have conversed with lately.
*sigh* - It has nothing to do with anyone's intelligence, including Guy's. World Youth Day is a Catholic event, sponsored by the Catholic Church. To have someone, who apparently has no problem with the gay lifestyle, write and promote a song at a Catholic event is called scandal. I'm sure he's a nice guy. I'm sure he's a talented musician. Nonetheless, either he clears up his views, or his song and his concert should not be held during World Youth Day.
It's also clear that many of you have decided your church leaders are idiots and don't know how to handle anything as simple as choosing a song.
Many of them don't know they should be using Gregorian chant - or they choose to ban it unofficially. And it's not about choosing a song, it's about choosing a song written by someone who supports an intrinsic evil.
I'm still waiting for more answers to my question,What would you catholics do if your daughter,son grandchild came home and annouced they were gay?
Maybe you could answer Deborah seeing you started this but i probably won't get any answers obviously it dose'nt happen in the catholic faith.
Here's a blog by someone who was at the recording last week.
http://robertgalea.blogspot.com/
Nice Blog thanks for posting the link.
Are you perfect enough to stand on the stage and sign for the Pope Deborah, Andrew and others?
This is not a rhetorical question. I really want an answer.
Wake Up says, "I'm still waiting for more answers to my question,What would you catholics do if your daughter,son grandchild came home and annouced they were gay?
Maybe you could answer Deborah seeing you started this but i probably won't get any answers obviously it dose'nt happen in the catholic faith."
Wake Up | 05.20.07 - 11:14 pm | #
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I get the feeling there is one Guy Sebastian supporter who is posing as many different commenters, but this question is hardly the "gotcha" that you want it to be.
The answer is easy: Say that the Catholic Church doesn't accept same sex acts for good reason, though same sex attractions are not inherently wrong as long as you don't act on them. Then direct them to a group like Exodus: http://www.exodus-international.org/ and a great article like this one by Father Paul Scalia (an excellent priest here in the Diocese of Arlington, son of guess who?) http://www.firstthings.com/artic...?
id_article=207
Well, I suppose to some people it's preferable to pretend, but what a horrible trick to play on the person you're pretending to.
Only one person, Gabe? I don't think so. I'm surprised there aren't more, because Guy is a very popular, award-winning artist.
Interesting that nobody has answered my query as to whether I should feel that the Catholic Chruch is still a safe environment, or a good role model for my children, given the stories that have appeared in the press regarding abuse allegations, and other nasty things over the years. Seems that people will asume that anything bad written about Catholic Church should automatically be put aside and or forgiven. But one very small, very unnoticed article about Guy should cause this much reaction, and have him denounced as evil. I would suggest that people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
Deborah, how did you manage to find this article. I have a copy of it, as I keep all things I see in the papers relating to Guy. But of course I am an avid fan, and many fans do this sort of thing. How did you remember it, when it went barely noticed by most Australians when it was printed. What made you go look for it. I suppose you are feeling vey smug and proud of yourself right now. A good, kind, christian young man is having the cruelest and harshest words said about him. And this statement below has puzzled me.
"However, there are other news stories with his comments which give the same kind of approval of homosexual activity and gay "marriage". Maybe they're all wrong? Maybe? Maybe not?"
As I said, I have most articles written about Guy, and access to the rest, and that aricle is the first I have seen him comment about Gay Marriage. He has spoken about his virginity many times, only because the press ask him about it every chance they get. He has spoken about the love he has for his family, church, God, and his girlfriend. But in all the articles I have ever read, that is the one and only time I have seen him mention Gay marriage. I recall a few times when he was asked if he was anti gay that he said he had gay friends. (in the music industy who wouldn't have met gay people) and he was asked recently what he thought of the fact that Anthony Callea had announced that he was gay. And he answered honestly that it was Anthonys' business. So if I am wrong about this, you must be a very avid NON fan of young Guy, to be more familiar with the articles written about him than I am. I am just glad it was not Anthony Callea whose song was selected. Boy, would that have stirred up a hornets' nest.
Dear Gabe, in answer to your assumption that I am many people on this site, I can assure you that I am Anne, and Anne only. I supplied my email address, and would even print it here, if I was not sure I would receive many irate emails from the very christian, tolerant people here who would object to the fact that as a catholic I will not agree to turn my back on every gay person I have ever met, worked with, or become friends with.
Very true Anne.
This is the only time I have ever read that comment from Guy and I too have read most articles printed about him. Deborah please give us the links to these other articles you refer to.
I have thought about the Catholic church and its many indecretions too over the past few days. Were you people as indignant, incensed and as vicious about those molesting priests as you are Guy (who has never committed any of those things)? Or were you protective of your church and prefered the media to back off and let the church deal with it - as they have done so, so creditably in the past? I'd be interested to know...
Oh and I'm not Anne supporting myself. I'm not Catholic - and feeling rather thankful of that at the moment.
I have lovely memories of working with an amazing Catholic nun, when I worked out west with the aboriginal children, to remind me that not all Catholics are as nasty and exclusive as those contributing to this forum..
Amazing how they assume that Catholics don't care about sex abusers who were priests...
Oh wow! Everything I say is in line with Catholic teaching. If a few have a problem with it then like I said before go to Jesus and the Holy Father to complain.
Are you even Catholic? Go read the Catechism and Holy Bible, study them and pray for direction then maybe eventually you'll understand Christ's teachings about homosexuality.
The real issue here is that those who are attacking faithful Catholics are also pro-gay "marriage" and homosexual activity supporters. Just admit it already! This really is not about Guy at all it is about them feeling convicted. It is typical for irrational people to attack others because they can't think of a good argument or defense for their own position or they are trying to hide their real agenda which is justifying disobedience to the Christ and His Church's teachings.
If it makes you feel better to attack me and avoid stating your own position without attacking others then bring it on.
Catholics are obligated to speak up for Catholic principles. We should not support or encourage that which is morally wrong. Catholic teaching is pretty clear on the issue of homosexuality:having the ssa impulse is not sinful, but acting outonit is gravely sinful.
Christine
The World...IMHO
"If it makes you feel better to attack me and avoid stating your own position without attacking others then bring it on."
Deborah I have stated my position and views very clearly. You still haven't explained how you remembered or found the story, or even searched for it. I believe you are very familiar with fan forums, and know how to use their search engines.
"Amazing how they assume that Catholics don't care about sex abusers who were priests.."
It appears Andrew, that many catholics including some in authority do not care a great deal about sex abusers or ones who have committed other forms of abuse against children. Except of course for the bad publicity. My own mother was in the Goodwood Orphanage in South Australia as a young child. An Orphanage run by nuns. She still has nightmares about the cruelty she was subjected too during her time there, to the extend that she can not drive past it without shaking, despite it now being used for another purpose. Cruelty including being locked in a dark cupboard for an hour with her sister screaming on the other side of the door the the nun to let her out. And much, much worse things that I can't possible tell you. It made me cry for hours when my mother told me the full story of her time there. And yet despite much publicity about all the things that went on in that dreadful place, any of the nuns still alive from there, are I am sure, still treated as respected members of the church. My mother was 4 years old at the time. She looks at her own grandchildren now and it makes her relive it again. She sees their innocence and wonders how anyone could have been so cruel to one so young. Why should she, or I believe that the Church or many other catholics care what some have done in the name of their faith.
I am a catholic because I believe in God and because I was brought up in the catholic faith. If the church wants to excommunicate me because I do not actively preach about the evils of homosexuality, and will not turn away from the gay people I know, then I will submit my name to them and they may do so. They may also like to know that I use the pill as well, as I am highly suspicous many other catholic women do.
Anne, thank you for your honesty which helps people to know where you are coming from. So in a nutshell you are a non-practicing Catholic. Sorry to hear that - hopefully one day you will find the happiness and blessings in Christ's teachings through His Catholic Church. It's not easy but it's the only way to true happiness in this life and the next with God in Heaven.
Did you know that the pill causes abortions? You probably have many children in Heaven. Read the label with the side effects and actions that come with the pills. If you would like you can give me your email and I can send you info. about natural ways to work with the cycle God gave us as women.
Oh, your question. Actually, I was just looking up who Guy Sebastian was after I received an email about him being chosen as the theme song writer and singer. This news article and others came up at the top so I innocently read them not expecting anything - that's it.
"Who helps you: someone who fails to tell you the truth or someone who does tell you the truth? The former may make you feel better; they may soothe and flatter, but the truth is more loving. It will help you live a healthier, happier and more fulfilled life." A principle to remember is hate the sin, love the sinner.
God bless.
So in essense Deborah, you believe that Guy should hate the sin, but love the sinner. I think that is what he is doing. He does not have gay sex, does not intend to marry a gay man, as he is not gay, never has been and never will be. I am sure he will eventually marry his beautiful girlfriend Jules and have a long and happy marriage with a girl who shares his christian values. He does love his fellow man, including the gay people he has met, and the gay fans he may have. And I am sure he also loves other christians, even the ones who speak evil of him, as he was brought up to believe he should love his fellow man in his church and the christian schools he attended.
And in answer to your question I still consider myself a Catholic, although my mother left the church a few years ago(She lost her faith as a teen, but thanks to the kindness and love she was given by members of the Sisters of Charity as a wayward teenager, she returned to the church and married a Catholic, and bought her children up as Catholics. Unfortunately the bitterness she feels now because of the Churches' lack of support in regards to what happened to her as a child, has caused her to give up on the Catholic Church. I myself do not blame her for this. She still believes in God and the teachings of the Bible, but is no longer a practising Catholic). I attend mass, and receive the sacraments. Until I am excommunicated by the Church, I will still consider myself a Catholic. As to supplying my email address, I cannot do that on a public website like this one. Never know how many nasty emails I will receive.
I teach at a relgious school part time.(not Catholic, as it is almost impossible to get a permanent job in a Catholic school here in South Australia.) I also follow Christs' teachings from the bible, and so do not participate in gay sex either, as Guy doesn't. But like Guy I refuse to rant about the people who are gay, and can do nothing to change it. Despite some Catholics' belief that you can change a gay person into a straight person with therapy I do not believe this is possible, and so I will not caste them aside.
Amazing as you seem to be on a similar time frame as I am, as you submit comments during our day and evening hours (So I assume you are from Australia) that you didn't know anything about Guy Sebastian before. Despite him not being well known overseas, he is well known here in Australia by both fans and non fans alike. So I would assume that would have at least been aware of his existance before receiving your special email.
As to your help regarding the pill, I am of the belief that it causes the woman not to ovulate, so does not in fact cause abortion. So I have gone against the Church teachings in this regard. But as the pill is not mentioned in the Bible by Christ, I feel comfortable in that. As to abortion, I abhore and appose it completely, as I am sure Guy himself does. I remember an article in which he spoke of his hopes one day to s
As the rest of my message seems to be lost I will finish it.
I remember deborah, an article about Guy in which he stated he hoped to one day start a councilling service for teens to help steer them away from aborting their babies. I am suprised you didn't find that article as well, when researching after receiving your email. Perhaps you were only looking for negative stories.
"I am a catholic because I believe in God and because I was brought up in the catholic faith...I use the pill... I still consider myself a Catholic...I am of the belief that it causes the woman not to ovulate, so does not in fact cause abortion. So I have gone against the Church teachings in this regard...But as the pill is not mentioned in the Bible by Christ, I feel comfortable in that.
Do you know what excommunicated latae sentiae means? Look in the mirror, Anne, and think.
You are about as Catholic as Donald Duck: ""as the pill is not mentioned in the bible." Spoken like a true Protestant.
"I still consider myself a Catholic." No, the Church determines whether one is Catholic or not, you don't except by submitting your intellect and will. Again, spoken like a true protestant.
You might well explain why someone who out of her own mouth is dead in her sins continues to "receive the sacraments." That would be what? Holy Communion, Confession? Sacrilegious Confessions (I assume you do not confess your error and dissent, there would be no point as you have no contrtiion and no firm purpose of amendment) leading to (more) sacrilegious Communions.
When you receive sacrilegeously, do you understand you are condemning yourself? Are you, a. a material (and probably formal) heretic, and b. a liar and a hypocrite who by saying "amen" is also committing the mortal sin of bearing false witness viz a grave matter. Well??? Or is this not in the bible so it isn't true?
Do you ever fail to assist at Mass when required by law? Yes or no? If yes, without good cause, that's a mortal sin and you may not receive Communion without prior sacramental confession (unless you are perfectly contrite, and then you must thereafter) on this basis alone, but as that is not in the bible, neither is transubstantiation...why don't you list ALL the things you dissent from including Church teaching on the place and role of Sacred Scripture and the impermissible ways of (mis)reading Sacred Scripture.
As someone who plainly needs no teacher when it comes to Sacred Scripture -- except her own perfect conscience -- I expect you can teach all of us the truth about Providentissimus Deus, Leo XIII, 1896;Spiritus Paraclitus, Benedict XV, 1920;Divino Afflante Spiritu, Pius XII, 1943: so go on, why don't you and tell the Church why She is wrong?
Still as you simply decide what is and is not true on your own authority, being infallibly guided by the Holy Spirit to understand and interpret Sacred Scripture...what the heck.
BTW one does not attend the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, one "assists" at.
Believing in God does not make one a Catholic. Being raised a Catholic (?, really? Why are you so devastatingly ignorant then?) does not make one a Ca
a Catholic. Adherence to all the Church teaches makes one a Catholic.
And he spoke to them many things in parables, saying: Behold the sower went forth to sow. And whilst he soweth some fell by the way side, and the birds of the air came and ate them up. And other some fell upon stony ground, where they had not much earth: and they sprung up immediately, because they had no deepness of earth. And when the sun was up they were scorched: and because they had not root, they withered away. And others fell among thorns: and the thorns grew up and choked them. And others fell upon good ground: and they brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, and some thirtyfold. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. Matt. 13:3-9.
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:16.
I charge thee, before God and Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead, by his coming, and his kingdom: Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine. For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables. 2 Timothy 4:1-4.
That henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive. Ephesians 4:14.
Just for you and the other Catholics *cough*.
"[The underlying principle of these new opinions is that,] in order to more easily attract those who differ from her, the Church should shape her teachings more in accord with the spirit of the age and relax some of her ancient severity and make some concessions to new opinions. Many think that these concessions should be made not only in regard to ways of living, but even in regard to doctrines which belong to the deposit of the faith. They contend that it would be opportune, in order to gain those who differ from us, to omit certain points of her teaching which are of lesser importance, and to tone down the meaning which the Church has always attached to them. It does not need many words, beloved son, to prove the falsity of these ideas if the nature and origin of the doctrine which the Church proposes are recalled to mind. The Vatican Council says concerning this point: "For the doctrine of faith which God has revealed has not been proposed, like a philosophical invention to be perfected by human ingenuity, but has been delivered as a divine deposit to the Spouse of Christ to be faithfully kept and infallibly declared. Hence that meaning of the sacred dogmas is perpetually to be retained which our Holy Mother, the Church, has once declared, nor is that meaning ever to be departed from under the pretense or pretext of a deeper comprehension of them."
re -Constitutio de Fide Catholica, Chapter iv.
"We cannot consider as altogether blameless the silence which purposely leads to the omission or neglect of some of the principles of Christian doctrine, for all the principles come from the same Author and Master, "the Only Begotten Son, Who is in the bosom of the Father."-John i, I8. They are adapted to all times and all nations, as is clearly seen from the words of our Lord to His apostles: "Going, therefore, teach all nations; teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you, and behold, I am with you all days, even to the end of the world."-Matt. xxviii, 19. Concerning this point the Vatican Council says: "All those things are to be believed with divine and catholic faith which are contained in the Word of God, written or handed down, and which the Church, either by a solemn judgment or by her ordinary and universal Magisterium, proposes for belief as having been divinely revealed."
re -Const. de Fide Catholica, Chapter iii.
"[These] dangers, viz., the confounding of license with liberty, the passion for discussing and pouring contempt upon any possible subject, the assumed right to hold whatever opinions one pleases upon any subject and to set them forth in print to the world, have so wrapped minds in darkness that there is now a greater need of the Church's teaching office than ever before, lest people become unmindful both of conscience and of duty."
Testem Benevolentiae Nostrae, Pope L
Tolerance? No, cowardice by another name.
17. Is any one of Us not aroused by the words God speaks to Us through the prophet Ezechiel: "Son of man, I have given you as a guide to the house of Israel: and you shall hear a word from my mouth, and you shall proclaim to them from me. If when I say to the wicked, you shall die the death, YOU DO NOT PROCLIAM IT TO HIM....the wicked man shall die in his iniquity but I shall look for his blood from your hand.'' I confess this statement startles me and prevents me from being slothful and fearful in executing the demands of my office. I promise and swear that I will always be not only your helper and supporter, but your chief and leader.
Diu Satis, Encyclical Of Pope Pius VII, promulgated on the 15th of May, 1800, Venice.
Thank you for choosing a song by Guy Sebastian, I'm sure he will be an inspiration, as he always is.
I know I have become far more tolerant of others, returned to the Church, learnt to re-appreciate our youth, and endeavoured to become more humble, as Guy himself is, since knowing him.
It seems this incredible young man, who has stood strong in his chosen career field (not known for fostering those with strong morals, and fine thoughts) despite all that has been thrown at him by such as here, and media, keeps growing in strength and spreading his love of all people.
Anyone who had doubts, after his recent concerts at the Sydney Opera House with the Australian Philharmonic Orchestra & choir, would have found them totally dispelled as after he sang "Falling in Love With Jesus" he lifted his eyes and clearly said "Thank you".
Guy Sebastian is one of the finest and strongest young men I have had the pleasure to come across in all my years. Unfortunately, it will also always be his load to carry, comments such as those above. Also I have noticed it is one of the unfortunate side effects of "arrival via competition", even tho it is almost 5 years ago.
He will no doubt become "Taller Stronger and Better" than before, as he asks us to be.
Thank you sirs, I'm sure this song will surpass all that you expect of it. And him.
Andrew, you said
"Furthermore, all other religions other than Catholicism are false religions. They aren't revealed by God, so you can't expect the Truth to come out as fully as It does with the Catholic Church"
As a non catholic christian I am very offended by that. There are many christian churches in the world, which are not catholic. Your own church must accept that, or they would not have allowed non catholic songwriters to submit their songs.In fact Guy was asked to submit a song after the original ones were found not to be suitable. To state what you have is very arrogant, considering that Christ himself was not a Catholic or even a Christian for that matter. He was brought up as a Jew.
This quote is taken directly from this site from the CNA link about the hymn and also Guy.
".Sydney, May 16, 2007 / 01:20 pm (CNA).- The official hymn for World Youth Day in 2008 has just been chosen. “Receive the Power” is the title of the official hymn for the celebration of the 23rd World Youth Day in Sydney. The song was written by young Australian composer Guy Sebastian. “We were looking for a hymn which would be involving and inspiring”, WYD 2008 co-ordinator Bishop Anthony Fisher OP explained.
“Above all it had to be a song which would fill the young participants with enthusiasm and capture the essence of the World Youth Day theme chosen by the Pope: You will receive the power of the Holy Spirit which will descend upon you and you will be my witnesses. Guy's song meets with all these requisites: it inspires the youth of the world to accept Jesus' call to follow him to the ends of the earth as his witnesses. ”
Receive the Power was chosen after a selection process involving over 120 pieces. The Pontifical Council for the Laity, which is involved in preparations for WYD on the part of the Holy See, is in agreement with the choice of the hymn. “It combines the necessary musical and thematic elements as well as being easy to sing for people of different languages. We are convinced that Receive the Power WYD hymn will be played and sung by young Catholics everywhere on the occasion of World Youth Day and from then on”, the Bishop said.
Australian composer singer Guy Sebastian made a name for himself in 2003, when he started composing music for his parish at the age of thirteen. In 2005, Guy was nominated World Vision Ambassador and went to Uganda to film a documentary on the difficulties people face there due to poverty and civil war. He has also written numerous songs for Australian singers."
This is slightly inaccurate as he was not of course 13 in 2003, but 21. Here are two Youtube links to hymns Guy sang in 2004 at his church. The first "Hosana" was written by his older brother Ollie. The second "Adore" by Guy himself. His voice has matured in the last 3 years and is now simply stunning. He is a gifted songwriter and singer. He is also a committed christian. Why don't you let his voice and music speak for him.
Simon,
Whoa you do really mean it when you call yourself an "Evil Trad"
I kept seeing you over at Hilary's place. But you weren't so, so, exclusive.
Firstly, I agree that "Catholics" who don't believe in all the doctrines of the Church, should stop calling themselves Catholic, or amend their beliefs and reconcile with God and Church. If not, find a church that is in more communion with their own beliefs,live with the consequences and leave the rest of us alone.
Having agreed with you on that, I find your tone uncharitable. You are well read. But I fear you lack wisdom and charity.
The open hostility you have to Catholics who are not traditionalists does the catholic church and her traditions no good service.
These are the links to the songs I spoke of in my previous comment. Hosana written by his brother Ollie, and Adore written by Guy. As I said let his voice and music speak for him. He will not be preaching to your catholic youth.
Hosana
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j...h?
v=jDUW1Qr15M8
Adore
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s...h?
v=sSNMENXG3fY
As a non catholic christian I am very offended by that. There are many christian churches in the world, which are not catholic. Your own church must accept that, or they would not have allowed non catholic songwriters to submit their songs.In fact Guy was asked to submit a song after the original ones were found not to be suitable. To state what you have is very arrogant, considering that Christ himself was not a Catholic or even a Christian for that matter. He was brought up as a Jew.
Outside the Church there is no Salvation. It's not offensive at all; nor is it arrogant. It's simply the Truth. And Christ fulfilled the Old Law - the Old Testament - so He is the Messiah of both the Jews and the Gentiles. How Christ was not a Christian is beyond me...
You continue to be arrogant Andrew. Like Simon-Peter Vickers-Buckley who spewed his vitriole at Anne, who apparently is more sinful than the nuns who abused her mother. I feel fortunate that my faith is far more forgiving of people than yours. Christ himself forgave those who tortured and nailed him to the cross. It is unfortunate that your religion is full of such intolerance and lack of concern for the fellow humans, christian or otherwise who walk this planet. I only hope that the people commenting here are not indicitive of all catholics. The term christian was not in use till after Christ died, Andrew. So no, I do not believe you could call Christ a Christian literally. He was the beginning of the Christian faith as it departed from the jewish faith, but he was in fact a Jew.
I'm not arrogant. I'm just restating in exact words what the Catholic Church (which Christ founded) teaches. It is dogma: Outside the Church there is no Salvation. I'm not the one making things up.
Lets agree to disagree Andrew. I will recognise your religion as a true religion, and you can recognise me as a heathen who will spend eternity in hell as will all other non catholic christians, and all non christians. Such a wonderful religion yours is Andrew, full of compassion, love, and tolerance, as Jesus taught. I think I prefer mine.
I never said any individual was going to Hell, and neither has the Church. Jesus did not tolerate sin. He was compassionate to those who repented of their sins.
Hey Meg,
You should consider asking Andrew to give a talk or sing a song at the next event which represents your protestant church.
After all you are loving and tolerant, aren't you? Oh, and I bet he's a great speaker and singer. Just let the music speak to you.
It shouldn't matter that he thinks your church is absolutely wrong in what it teaches, should it? Just put him right up on the big old stage. He probably won't mention that he thinks you and your church are wrong on stage but he did give an interview where he stated it publicly...
Headline: "Meg and her church are totally wrong in what they believe and they have missed the boat on what Christianity is about."
Yeah, that won't have any affect on anyone in your church. After all, you are loving and tolerant, aren't you?
Andrew, I hope you don't mind that I used you in the above example. I think the non-practicing and non-Catholics need to see a personal example of what we're trying to get across.
Anne,
It seems you are not going to hear any truth or reason from Catholics who know their Faith since you know all of the answers already. You my friend are in a state of mortal sin, it's no wonder you can't think clearly.
I don't blame you totally since you probably have rarely heard or learned of the beautiful truths and treasures of our Catholic faith therefore you have had to pick and choose your own path along your life. Like most you have heard and been taught dissent, lies, and distorted half truths. Sadly, this is a common state right now.
Just for the record...I am far, far from Australia (24hr flight) and it's just silly to imply that I'm lying about knowing of Guy Sebastian. Also, for the record I am a Registered Nurse so I am very familiar with the pill and its abortifacient effects. Ovulation is not always suppressed so as a back-up the pill makes it impossible for the newly conceived child to implant into the mother's womb. Look it up..this info. is all over the internet.
Anne, you are on the wrong path. Let your guard down and find out the Truths about life found in your Catholic faith. This blog site has many books, websites, blogs, etc that will lead you to Jesus and His Cathlic Church.
Puff: I have NO IDEA of what you are speaking, none. I have NEVER called myself an "evil trad" and have had frequent recourse to deny the appelation "trad" on my own and other blogs. If I am such a "trad" then you need to explain why I have been engaging "them" in no uncertain terms for the past month, in one post, but two days ago comparing "their" attitude to women to the Taliban.
I have not been to Ms. Whites blog for about 8 weeks and I have no intention of so doing.
As to you and Meg, your opinions are supremely irrelevant. An instrument has yet to be devised that can measure my indifference to you or your fellow-travellers.
Meg: you, my lady, are a typical jamming-liberal, viz "spewed his vitriole (sic) [what phrase book did you get that from?] at Anne" and "apparently is more sinful than the nuns." Eisegesis Meg? Projection? How Prot.
No Meg, I cited dogma and the actual words of the Vicars of Christ and in one case incorporated by reference the First Vatican Council.
Meg, your jamming is the fruit of your worldview and pathological unwillingness to confront reality.
There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church unless a. a man is invincibly ignorant (ignorant through no fault of this own) of the claims of the Catholic Church to be the ordinary exculsive means of salvation, b. he worship God according to the law written on the heart of every man, and c. he die not in mortal sin.
What are the spiritual works of mercy? Who will require the blood of the unjust from my hands if I do NOT warn him?
Humility is the root of Charity, humility subsists in truth, and this is why, your so-called tolerance and openness is false - false humility, false charity. You are the very ones I have been warning about for months: those who are so blind and so proud they actually believe themselves sincere; what incredible presumption, outrageous puffery, what abysmal hubris!
The Spiritual Works of Mercy: To admonish sinners. To instruct the ignorant. To counsel the doubtful. To comfort the sorrowful. To bear wrongs patiently. To forgive all injuries. To pray for the living and the dead.
In case you have forgotten, those who (knowingly) reject Peter, reject Jesus and the One Who sent Him. Does Mr. Sebastian, a material heretic and schismatic knowingly reject the Catholic Church, the ordinary and exclusive means of salvation? Is he therefore a formal heretic and schismatic? Why on earth any Catholic would think it is acceptable to have such a man anywhere near or associated with the sacramental and teaching life of the Church in so far as that is present during any World Youth Day is part of the mystery of iniquity. It is Mr. Sebastian that needs to hear from you if you actually loved him to will his good.
He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me. Luke 10:16.
He that receiveth you, receiveth me: and he that receiveth me, receiveth him that sent me. Matt. 10:40.
Amen, amen, I say to you, he that receiveth whomsoever I send, receiveth me; and he that receiveth me, receiveth him that sent me. John 13:20.
He that loveth me not, keepeth not my words. And the word which you have heard, is not mine; but the Father's who sent me. John 14:24.
As thou [Father] hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. John 17:18.
He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. John 20:21.
Thus some humanitarians only care for pity; and their pity (I am sorry to say) is often untruthful. For example, Mr. Blatchford attacks Christianity because he is mad on one Christian virtue: the merely mystical and almost irrational virtue of charity. He has a strange idea that he will make it easier to forgive sins by saying that there are no sins to forgive. Mr. Blatchford is not only an early Christian, he is the only early Christian who ought really to have been eaten by lions. For in his case the pagan accusation is really true: his mercy would mean mere anarchy. He really is the enemy of the human race -- because he is so human...[what] we suffer from to-day is humility in the wrong place. Modesty has moved from the organ of ambition. Modesty has settled upon the organ of conviction; where it was never meant to be. A man was meant to be doubtful about himself, but undoubting about the truth; this has been exactly reversed. Nowadays the part of a man that a man does assert is exactly the part he ought not to assert -- himself. The part he doubts is exactly the part he ought not to doubt -- the Divine Reason.
Andrew, I hope you don't mind that I used you in the above example. I think the non-practicing and non-Catholics need to see a personal example of what we're trying to get across.
Haha, I don't mind. Don't worry. I'm not a very good singer, but if I did do that, I would sing some Gregorian chant for 'em.
c. he die not in mortal sin. - I would just add a qualification: that he would have to be repentant and contrite if he did die in mortal sin.
Simon-Peter, I apologise, I confused you with one of her supporters. I stand corrected on the EVIL TRAD bit. You are not.
You continue to be arrogant Andrew. Like Simon-Peter Vickers-Buckley who spewed his vitriole at Anne, who apparently is more sinful than the nuns who abused her mother. I feel fortunate that my faith is far more forgiving of people than yours.
Luke 18:10-14:
"Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, `God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I get.' But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, `God, be merciful to me a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for every one who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."
To the intolerant posters in this thread, all you do is give people a reason to have a negative view of Catholics.
Well, let's have a look at some nuggets from the Apostles of Tolerance:
From "PraiseGod": Deborah - If you are looking for Mr or Ms perfect then you won't find anyone.
From Anne: You should read the bible more carefully and if you did you would realise Christ himself did not try and tear down others. I think he would be frowning on the two of you at the moment.
Also from Anne: You are very bitter, angry people. So sad you didn't spend more time doing good in the world like Guy, and less time casting stones....I have better things to do with my time than argue with bigots.
Also from Anne: I supplied my email address, and would even print it here, if I was not sure I would receive many irate emails from the very christian, tolerant people here who would object to the fact that as a catholic I will not agree to turn my back on every gay person I have ever met, worked with, or become friends with.
From PraiseGod: I have lovely memories of working with an amazing Catholic nun, when I worked out west with the aboriginal children, to remind me that not all Catholics are as nasty and exclusive as those contributing to this forum..
From Meg: I feel fortunate that my faith is far more forgiving of people than yours. Christ himself forgave those who tortured and nailed him to the cross. It is unfortunate that your religion is full of such intolerance and lack of concern for the fellow humans, christian or otherwise who walk this planet. I only hope that the people commenting here are not indicitive of all catholics.
Also from Meg: Such a wonderful religion yours is Andrew, full of compassion, love, and tolerance, as Jesus taught. I think I prefer mine.
I'm sure glad we have people out there fighting the good fight against intolerance and judgmentalism!
"You should consider asking Andrew to give a talk or sing a song at the next event which represents your protestant church."
Why do you Deborah, and so many other people here assume that anyone who has not stating they are catholic is a protestant. I have never said which faith I follow. There are many christian faiths. Not just Catholic and Protestant. As to Guy giving a talk, that is not happening. He has only written the hymn and will sing it at its unveiling. I would rather not ask Andrew to sing at our next church event, but thanks for the offer. My preference would be to ask a person who is kind, tolerant, and full of love for God and the rest of the people on this planet. Oh and of course with a beautiful voice that was meant to sing hymns. That person of course is Guy.
"There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church unless a. a man is invincibly ignorant"
And did God write these words Simon-Peter Vickers-Buckley, or someone from your Church many years ago. Forgive me if you stated who did, as I did not read most of your rant. Well I guess there is still hope for me, because in your eyes anyone not following your faith is ignorant, so there is still a chance God will decide to let us fools into heaven. I hope you are neither a priest or father of children, Mr Vickers-Buckley. As I hate to think a man with so little compassion for anyone(and seemingly slightly unhinged) fills one of those roles. Pity Anne if she ever meets you.
Of course you didn't read it! Your a prot! LOL. That is exactly the problem: you have no clue what is in scripture (and what it means) as all you know is that which you memorize (out of context) to support your preconceived ideas, the core of which is to reject the idea that God demands we subject ourselves to human, MALE, religious authority...as has ALWAYS been the case.
Who gave you your bible? From whence did it emerge? Who determined what is and is not sacred scripture? You?
You protestants just cannot help yourselves.
"because in your eyes anyone not following your faith"
My eyes? My faith? Spoken like a true protestant. Subjective writes as subjective is. No, sorry, there is no hope for you *unless* you come home because you are now without excuse: you have been presented with the truth and have rejected it. I have never come across someone who admits not to have read something, but decides to comment on the substance they have not read anyway LOL.
I did not say anyone not a Catholic, i.e. a real Christian, is ignorant per se, I said, *unless* a person is invincibly ignorant of the claims of the Catholic Church &c. it is not possible for them to be saved as they are, through their own free will, cut off from the Body of Christ. Did you NOT read the six cites from sacred scripture I provided?
"there is still a chance God will decide to let us fools into heaven."
Pathetic.
"As I hate to think a man with so little compassion for anyone(and seemingly slightly unhinged) fills one of those roles. Pity Anne if she ever meets you."
You, my lady, are of your father the devil. You are a material and formal heretic, and a schismatic. Your "compassion" first emerged in eden, you fraud. Your charity is a sick mans appetite. You have not the first clue about what compassion is, what charity is, what santification and the will of God is. You are a typical, emotional, subjective, post-modern human.
Simon-Peter Vickers-Buckley, I don't think you should be calling anyone names. That's just not the way you're going to convert anyone...
Well, your words speak for themselves Mr Vickers-Buckley and my assumption as to your sanity is clarified. I did not read all your words because I couldn't be bothered. If that makes me a prod then so be it. I do not wish to convert to your faith, so I do not feel inclined to spend valuable time perusing your rants completely, so I only skim. I feel that not many other non catholic christians would feel inclined to convert either, if they read your tirades. I sir, am not a protestant, so please stop referring to me as one.
Simon-Peter Vickers-Buckley, I don't think you should be calling anyone names. That's just not the way you're going to convert anyone...
Reasonable people can disagree on how far is too far, but I offer the following for your consideration (and for the consideration of the granola-eating, birkenstock-wearing, recycling, live-and-let-live Jesus crowd): Matthew 23:15-17, 23-33:
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you traverse sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.
Woe to you, blind guides, who say, "If any one swears by the temple, it is nothing; but if any one swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath." You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that has made the gold sacred? Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law, justice and mercy and faith; these you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you cleanse the outside of the cup and of the plate, but inside they are full of extortion and rapacity. You blind Pharisee! first cleanse the inside of the cup and of the plate, that the outside also may be clean.
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. So you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but within you are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, saying, 'If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' Thus you witness against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers.
You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?
And that's just Matthew!
Suddenly, Jesus is not looking so warm and fuzzy and squishy after all.
Wow Anita Moore, you and Simon-Peter wouldn't happen to be married would you. You do seem to study the most graphic and violent sections of the Bible and your Churches' teachings. It would certainly be an interesting household if it is the case. So glad we are not friends. A dinner party at your house would definately not be fun.
Wow! I loved the post and, being a Sydney dweller actively involved in the planning of WYD, I popped in to say "Come on down, it'll be a blast!" Drop in for a coffee while you are here :)
But 90 comments on.. what?
I don't agree with the choice of singer, but I do know the people involved in making the decision.
I suspect they are concerned that there are no prominent Catholic singers here in Australia and very few Christian singers.
Guy Sebastian was pinned to the wall by reporters seeking to portray him as unfeeling angry 'gay-haters' and he made a weak call, consistent with his own denomination's approach to such things. That is, not to be in favour of it, but to refuse to condemn it. His personal life has been a choice for chastity and he has an otherwise 'clean' image.
Like I said, I don't agree with the choice, but it would be a far sadder thing if people CHOOSE to point out a small percieved blemish in WYD plans and screamed about it (for 90 comments so far isn't it?) in the absence of any focus on the very real good being planned and done by good and holy people here in Sydney.
St Thomas teaches, on the eighth commandment, that when we *have to* say something that would detract from someone's repuation, we do so as privately, carefully and justly as is possible. This is hardly the forum for a Catholic person to offer such detraction without subsequently needing a confessional.
If a genuine Christian has a serious concern to raise about some aspect of the planning of WYD they are able to submit their concerns to the bishop responsible or to Cardinal Pell. Both men known worldwide for their steadfast orthodoxy and astounding intellect.
There is nothing to be gained by publically defaming the enture WYD effort here in Australia because you do not think a particular decision made on a particular matter is prudent.
Now, back to the coffee. How do you take it?
So Peter may i ask why Guy Sebastian is not your choice of singer?
This man sings from his heart with so much passion but hes not catholic!
Peter- I agree with many of your comments, e.g. that many who have put together WYD are orthodox and that Guy Sebastian was a terrible choice given his views that seem similar to the average liberal Hollywood actor. That is why I posted in my comment how to contact Cardinal Pell in a private manner: http://www.sydney.catholic.org.a...u/
contact.shtml
But you are wrong about those publicly criticizing the choice on a blog needing to go to Confession. That is ridiculous.
This is a public event and cardinals and bishops and organizers are working in the public sphere. Therefore, they are not above public criticism. They can easily switch singers with public pressure.
If you are going to try to reach youth and want singers with Guy Sebastian's views and influence, why not get Akon and Gwen Stefani? According to WakeUp, what is important is not their views but rather that they "sing with their heart out."
Better yet, why not get an orthodox Catholic that can sing? They don't have to be famous.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f...h?
v=ferlcN1zlcs
I think this is sufficient. There seems to be far too much 'anti-Guy" and very little pro World Youth Day. I suspect comments are coming from some more domestic areas
Thank you Peter for your sensible and clear comment regarding the choice of Guy Sebastian as the songwriter and singer of the theme song for World Youth Day. I can understand that you might prefer a catholic was chosen, but Guy is one of the finest Gospel singers in Australia. He has as you say a very clean and chaste image. An image that has caused him much flak from some of the rock band types in the Australian music industry. But he has always refused to change just to be accepted by them. I would go further and say he is one of the most sincere, kindest and compassionate people I have ever come across. He is not of my faith either, but I would welcome him into my church to sing any day. A deliberately loaded question by the press may not have been answered in the way Catholics might have liked, but it seems to have created a very excessive response. Hopefully any complaints will be dealt with wisely by the men you mentioned. I hope they will realise that one newspaper article should not condemn someone.
To all of you who are crying for his blood, I will say again he is a gifted musician with a beautiful voice and is indeed a devout christian. I will put the links again for some of his performances, and like I said let the voice and music speak for him.
The first two were sung at his church 3 years ago.
Hosana By Ollie Sebastian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j...h?
v=jDUW1Qr15M8
Adore By Guy Sebastian/Paul Zaia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s...h?
v=sSNMENXG3fY
The last one is off his last album and has a very gospel feel.
Taller, Stronger, Better By Guy Sebastian/Phil Turcio/Gary Pinto
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p...h?
v=pJmjNzbowfs
Peter, the official WYD organizers have been notified and are quite horrified by the selection of someone who has publicly stated they are pro-gay "marriage". Especially when the Church fights so hard against this. They were not aware of his stance on gay "marriage".
Guy said that "if you're a gay couple why not [get married]". If that's not public support for homosexual "marriage" then what is?
Anyway, WYD belongs to all CATHOLICS world wide and all CATHOLICS are obligated to ensure that it represents our Catholic faith according to Her teachings which come from Jesus Christ. We are obligated that our youth whom we send there will not be subject to scandal and will have solid Catholic teachings and role models presented to them. What's my agenda? I love Jesus Christ and His Catholic Church more than my own life or reputation and would defend my Faith to the death if need be. I also love and care for our Catholic youth who Satan is constantly trying to attack and mislead away from the moral Truths of their Catholic faith.
If anyone would like to contact me for more info. about this or anything else I have brought up feel free to do so. I pray that all will come to know the Way, the Truth, and the Life - Jesus Christ, through His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. God bless. credoclub@hotmail.com
"Well, your words speak for themselves...I did not read all your words."
Good one, you are a laugh a minute.
"who are crying for his blood"
Please cite a single case of anyone requesting he be put to death.
"I feel that not many other non catholic christians would feel inclined to convert either, if they read your tirades."
Yes, you do a lot of feeling and very little thinking. I am enjoying your excuse (transparent) for not dealing with a single substantive point, i.e. its a rant and you can't be bothered to read, although how you would know it is a rant if you don't read is a mytery: obviously it's that old guided by the Holy Spirit thing. In anycase, why think you I am trying to convert anyone? This is a Catholic blog? Why are you here anyway? Why are the internal affairs of the Church any of your concern? What business of yours is any of this? By your own admission you are alien and knowingly to the Mystical Body of Christ.
The complaint is he is a heretic (a picker and a chooser) and has no business whatsover being at WYD in the present form. That the so-called organizers can see nothing wrong in holding up a heretic for inevitable adulation and emulation speaks to them, not to Mr. Sebastian. His presence speaks approval, and approval of his heresies: religious indifferetnism, ecumenism gone mad, where the goal is Catholics become less Catholic and see the Church as just one choice out of many.
I am confident that his songs or whatever they are are absolutely and unequivocally conformable to Catholic doctrine and dogma.
Right.
Even if they are, let me posit this: "Mummy, does he believe the Holy Father is the heir of Peter?" "Does he believe that Jesus founded the One, Holy,Catholic and Apsotolic Church?" "Does he believe in the seven sacraments?" "Holy Orders?" "Does he believe the Church is indefectible?" etc etc.
"NO." "So why is he here?"
What "message" is this? In case you say that such questions are somehow esoteric, are not of concern, then you condemn yourselves out of your own mouths as this is basic, fundamental Catholicism 101, and if none of the youths are asking these questions, I hardly think they are Catholic except in name only, so, actually, I am not surprised few of you are batting an eyelid.
Do you recall last years WYD and the problem with the band from Argentina who were headlined (got to trust the WYD organizers, and Australia is SUCH an orthodox Catholic country)? Then crticism of the Church was explicit. Mr. Sebastians is implicit but it amounts to the same thing --
calling the Church a liar and Peter a charlattan...but so long as he is passionate and sings from the heart, it is all good. When did disordered emotions become the measure of the Good? Why do you feel, instead of think?
Peter: you said "consistent with his own denomination's approach to such things".
By your use of "own" would I be wrong in infering you think the Catholic Church
is just another denomination?
Simon-Peter
For the record, I have expressed my dissapointment in the choice of Guy Sebastian through the appropriate chanels.
I have no intention of addressing the matter here.
St Thomas does not agree with your view of detraction, even in the public forum, nor does the Catholic Church.
Being determined to be a faithful Catholic to the very best of my ability, I'll stick with St Thomas and the Church on this one. Don't take my word for it, read it.
I would love to see you and all the rest here in Sydney in 2008.
Peter
Peter, come on pal:
what *IS* my view of detraction? Are you convinced you understand every jot and tittle of what is and is not encompased by that sin. Do I really need to go upstairs and give you chapter and verse from my rather fat, old handbook of dogmatic theology? Please Peter don't pull the old Thomas Aquinas routine, I am passingly familiar with the universal doctor and the teachings of the Church and the lies and heresies which most Catholics propagate themsleves or by their silence condone (and no, I don't mean you).
There are nine ways to partake of anothers sin: here they are --
By counsel.
By command.
By consent.
By provocation.
By praise or flattery.
By concealment.
By partaking.
By silence.
By defense of the ill done.
Those who, however imperfectly, try to defend their Mother from CINOS and heretics are accused of all manner of crimes, whilst most Catholics do nothing but that which falls within one of the nine categories above. Who speaks to that? Who?
"...in what I have done and WHAT I HAVE FAILED TO DO."
Straining at gnats but swallowing camels.
Dissapointment, fair enough. My dissapointment is not with the choice of Mr. Sebastian so much as that someone, a putuative Catholic, thought it acceptable. His opinion about "gay marriage" is besides the point. He is a walking, talking, singing denial of the Church. Either someone did not do his homework, in which case he needs to be fired, or he did do his homework, in which case he needs to be fired.
Why it is so hard for Catholics to get that this behaviour is not just a cause, but a symptom of a presently existing indifferentism.
I would like to come to Sydney, but, alas, $$$ and age are against me!
"For the record, I have expressed my dissapointment in the choice of Guy Sebastian through the appropriate chanels."
So Peter, I misunderstood your first comment. Although you said "Guy Sebastian was pinned to the wall by reporters seeking to portray him as unfeeling angry 'gay-haters' and he made a weak call, consistent with his own denomination's approach to such things. That is, not to be in favour of it, but to refuse to condemn it. His personal life has been a choice for chastity and he has an otherwise 'clean' image." I assumed that meant that you did not feel he was being pro gay, and should not be so harshly treated here. I now realise you meant that people should continue to do this in secret, via complaint. So you do not think the words spoken here are harsh and unwarrented, just that you do not want the non catholic world to see them, as they may judge Catholics harshly because of the statements. You seem to talk in riddles. If his answers were in fact as you said in that post "That is, not to be in favour of it, but to refuse to condemn it."
then why do you feel the need to tell people to complain to the Church authorities. Your statements are very contradictory.
Dear Mr Vickers-Buckley I once again did not read your complete rant. My apologies. I realise that makes me laughable in your eyes, but I am not concerned about that. I am sure that some of your comments revealing your opinion about other christian faiths will have the non catholic world very amused indeed. Or decidedly angry. But of course I forgot, they are just arrogent heathens, so you wouldn't really care what they thought. I did read this bit with interest though
"I would like to come to Sydney, but, alas, $$$ and age are against me!"
So perhaps your advancing years explains some of your rants. God may be very nervous about meeting you, my friend. Perhaps he will ensure you live a very long life to postpone that meeting as long as possible.
So Sorry Mr Vickers-Buckley, I accidently misquoted you in my last comment. You called non catholics ignorant, not arrogant. The arrogance is coming completely from the catholic commenters on this site like you, who feel that yours is the only religion that matters in the eyes of God. Thought I would clear my mistake up before your next rant. I of course being non catholic, am not as perfect as the followers of the only true religion on this earth, the Catholic Church, so I am sure you will forgive my mistake. No of course not, catholics do not forgive.
The...catholic commenters on this site like you,...feel that yours is the only religion that matters in the eyes of God.
Well...it does have the advantage of having been founded by Jesus Christ Himself. No other church can say as much.
Those of you who like to slam Catholics and the Catholic Church are actually the ones who care more about religions than about people, since you prefer the perpetuation of error to the salvation of souls.
Hullo Anita Moore. The feminine side of Mr Vickers-Buckley speaks. Not interested in what you have to say either. My faith is a christian faith. I will let God decide if I deserve a place in heaven, not you. I have let a good life, and I will let him decide if he wants my company. I am sure he will recognise a true christian when he sees them. Go to mass and everything else you want to. It will make no difference when God judges your behaviour. He will decide for himself.
Theres a lot of crap on here.I don't know what is taught in the catholic churches but walking past the catholic schools at the end of the day isn't always pleasant they need their mouths washing out.They obviouslydon't follow their faith in a strict way,in the mean time bring on the Guy song Whoo Hoo!.
WOW just stumbled on this site coz I was researching for my trip/pilgrimage to Sydney for this wonderful global Christian event
How wonderful is it that Australia is hosting this in 2008!!!
I am a Catholic and my church is very important to me and they are so enthusiastic about this!
I have relatives, my sons and family and close Christian friends who are planning for this pilgrimage to Sydney
I must say that reading through some of this though – I have been offended by some Catholics who think they are better than all the other Christians in this world.... all this stuff about false religion and stuff - bizarre
I am just so pleased that my sons have chosen the Christian way to lead their lives just like Guy Sebastian who attracts the youth of today to the church with his music and by example
Guy Sebastian is the best thing to hit Christian kids when there are so many bad influences on tv radio and the print media
My sons think he is very cool and he is!!!
He is a devout Christian who attends his church regularly, he is waiting for marriage before he has sex with his beautiful girlfriend of 7 years... coz she is the ONE for him
and has set himself a very tough mission to be true to his faith whilst trying to keep ahead of the game as a POP recording artist in the cut throat Music Industry where he has many detractors because he is so clean cut and Christian
I honestly wasn’t expecting to see some of the comments here
He is damned as a Christian from ‘full on’ Christians here as not being a good enough Christian in their eyes to sing (not preach) just sing a heartfelt song of worship to God – a powerful anthem for this glorious 2008 event
he cannot win... what ever he says or doesn't say... gets misquoted
So I felt I needed to support Guy Sebastian here and say
That me and my family will be there in Sydney 2008 to participate in this monumental global event for the whole 5 days… having such a wonderful Christian as is Guy Sebastian representing Australia with his gifted songwriting abilities in composing RECEIVE THE POWER (havent heard it yet) as well as that VOICE that was surely given to him by God to spread the word of God to the ‘popular culture’ of this World today!!!
Hullo Anita Moore. The feminine side of Mr Vickers-Buckley speaks. Not interested in what you have to say either.
And what better way to prove it than by taking time out from your busy schedule to respond to me!
More fake Catholics, who, in violation of canon law 750-52 caluminate Catholics and defend heresy and heretics.
You are such frauds, Lauren, such frauds. You are what you are, a protestant in sheeps clothing.
"Pilgrimmage"...? LOL.
True to "his" faith... is that the faith that calls Jesus and peter liars? FAKE Catholics."He is a devout Christian who attends church regularly." He is a liar, he denies the Church and the Lord who bought him. You fraud Catholics.
Okay, here's the email I have sent to: WYD general organizers, WYD event organizers, Cardinal Pell, Auxiliary Bishop Fisher, and the Pontifical Council for the Laity:
Guy Sebastian must not be permitted to perform his theme song at WYD. He has stated publicly his support for gay "marriage" and slams Christians who believe it's wrong by stating, "That's the sad side of Christianity...they miss the whole point of Christianity.."
How can it be that Mr. Sebastian thinks that Catholics have missed the boat on what Christianity is about and we ask him to be our star "anthem" singer at our world wide event. People will think we are absolute fools! And what will this teach our youth and everyone watching us around the world?
jmj
Good for you, Deborah! All of us should also send an email. It sends a really bad message to have a "Do whatever. Show love. Whoo-hoo" kind of celebrity leading World Youth Day. What does that tell the youth? It would lead many astray.
There has got to be some extremely talented, though not famous, youth in Australia who could sing a theme song.
Here's the contact info. to respectfully voice your protest. I emailed and called by phone as well. Let's fill up their email boxes and voice mails!
Emails:
1. media@sydarch.org.au - His Eminence, Cardinal Pell and Auxuliary Bishop Fisher
2. media@wyd2008.org -
WYD events organizers
3. WYD general organizers
4. pcpl@laity.va - Pontifical Council for the Laity (gave permission for song)
Phone numbers:
1. His Eminence, Cardinal Pell and Aux. Bishop Fisher
61 2 9390 5100 (International)
(02) 9390 5100 (Local)
2. WYD can't find phone numbers for organizers
3. Pontifical Council for the Laity
39 06 698 87 214 (International)
JMJ
Thank you Deborah - it was kind of you to put up contact details so that I can send my congratulations to the organisers of this wonderful Youth Event.
It is a blessing that Australia has been chosen as the host country for 2008 and I for one am thrilled and proud to be going!!
Your welcome, Lauren. I posted this info. publicly for everyone. You can email, phone, whatever you want to do. You may wish to write this info. down, it's always good to know the contacts within the Church.
Meg,
There is a little dogma we Catholics believe in called 'Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus'. Basically this means that Our Lord Jesus Christ established ONE Church on the rock of PETER and it is through this Church that all are saved. You must be united to this church before you die if you wish to be saved. However much who profess to follow Christ it will avail you nothing. I would advise you to remember these words:
"Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.' (Mt 7:22-23)
How do you know what you are saying is true?
Are you not expressing your own opinions and attributing them to God?
Is that not outrageous pride?
If you are a Protestant then you at least believe in the Holy Bible. Please read it and with especial reference to Matthew Chapter 16. You might want to read what St Paul says about homosexuality while you're at it!
If you reject scripture please do not presume to refer to yourself as a Christian!
The above comment is mine. I never post anonymously. My apologies.
Meg said:
A finer, kinder, more principled, or more talented song writer for the song to represent the World Youth day could never be found.
Actually, I doubt that. He is famous, though. Of course, of the songs that were submitted to the WYD organisers, this may have been the best one.
The fact that Handel and Bach were Protestants doesn't seem to bother a lot of Catholics or prevent us from listening to and appreciating their music.
Having said that, I think the concerns people have raised over Guy's unChristian stand on the gay "marriage" issue (I'd love to know what he thinks of contraception, divorce and abortion) are perfectly legitimate.
There is something very problematic in holding up someone like Guy to be a role model for young Catholics.
Are we all sinners? Sure.
Will we find perfect role models for our kids apart from Our Lord and His Mother? Certainly not.
But that's not really the point here. Most Catholics are very secular anyway and confused about what the Church teaches and why. This kind of thing can just lead to further confusion and it's not really what the youth - or anyone - need.
I'm not sure why people assume that Catholics who are concerned about the Faith being presented accurately to people are being uncharitable, "judgemental," blah blah blah. That in itself seems pretty judgemental and possibly uncharitable itself!
(Apparently "judge not" only applies to orthodox Catholics).
Having said all that - I too, am looking forward to WYD.
To Anonymous - Protestants certainly do read and believe the Holy Bible. However, to Protestants, the Lord Jesus Christ himself is the rock on which the Church is established.
In 1 Peter 2:6-8, Peter says: “Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on Him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe, he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner."
In Matthew 15-18 we read: "He said to them, But who do you say that I am? Simon Peter replied, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. Then Jesus answered him, Blessed, happy, fortunate, and to be envied are you, Simon Bar-Jonah. For flesh and blood have not revealed this to you, but My Father Who is in heaven."
"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock" (i.e., Peter's declaration of faith), "I will build My church, and the gates of Hades, the powers of the infernal region shall not overpower it, or be strong to its detriment or hold out against it."
Nowhere did Jesus state that we must be united to the Church before we die if we wish to be saved. However, John 3:16 states quite clearly:
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
No Terms and Conditions there!
Er. Okay. I'm convinced.
Wow.
It seems some people here got so used to posting in the comment boxes of Catholic blogs, they forgot how to debate with non-Catholics. Tone it down, please.
I will say this, though: if I didn't think Catholicism was the true religion - and I say "the" because surely there can only be one true religion, if any at all, because they all contradict each other - if I didn't think the Catholic Church was divinely founded, I wouldn't be Catholic. One false thing makes an otherwise true statement false. I wouldn't like belonging to an institution that proclaimed lies.
Back to the scheduled heated debate.
thank you Nutcrazical
being called a fake catholic isnt a very christian or catholic way for folks to talk to other christians visiting this site
all I really wanted to say here was that I am really looking forward to going to this event and that a singer is not a preacher... he is there to sing an inspirational anthemic song for this wonderful event and that is all
the organisation chose his song and he has been invited to sing his song at the opening
I cant see how this is in anyway harmful to young catholics
I now feel like I am not part of this exclusive Catholic Club here coz I may not be a good enough Catholic
July the 1st at Darling Harbour thats when Guys WYD song will be unveiled!
Not long now this is exciting
Simon Peter--The man tells the truth -the whole truth-- and nothing but the truth! You can call me Simone!!
With respect to Simon-Peter, the tone of his answers in this forum alone display my earlier point well enough. I have no further comment.
For anyone who is confused about the the sin of detraction, the Cathechism, under the heading "Offenses against truth", says;
"2477 Respect for the reputation of persons forbids every attitude and word likely to cause them unjust injury. He becomes guilty:
- of rash judgment who, even tacitly, assumes as true, without sufficient foundation, the moral fault of a neighbor;
- of detraction who, without objectively valid reason, discloses another's faults and failings to persons who did not know them;
- of calumny who, by remarks contrary to the truth, harms the reputation of others and gives occasion for false judgments concerning them.
2478 To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor's thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way:
Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another's statement than to condemn it. But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it. And if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love. If that does not suffice, let the Christian try all suitable ways to bring the other to a correct interpretation so that he may be saved."
In case I be accused of telling one side of the story, the Catechism also states that;
"2480 Every word or attitude is forbidden which by flattery, adulation, or complaisance encourages and confirms another in malicious acts and perverse conduct. Adulation is a grave fault if it makes one an accomplice in another's vices or grave sins. Neither the desire to be of service nor friendship justifies duplicitous speech. Adulation is a venial sin when it only seeks to be agreeable, to avoid evil, to meet a need, or to obtain legitimate advantages."
I say again, I have expressed my dissapointment with regards the decision in the most Christian manner I am able. I am also dissapointed that any number of Catholics have defended the position he is reported to hold, and any other position he might hold.
To any who feel tempted to engage in any sort of sophistry (clever twisting of the Churches teaching) to justify detraction, I beg you to examine the fruits of such negativity. It will only serve as ammunition to those who mocks us, and fuel for the evil one's attempts to undermine this good endeavour.
I beg you, place your complaints at the door of those who make the decisions in the most careful and considered fashion, and engage in public acclamation of the immense amount of good that is happening.
With all it's administrative hiccoughs and less than ideal presentation over the years, WYD IS good, and it has borne good fruits.
Peter- What you are proposing--that WYD and Church leaders can make wrong decisions, including getting a pro-homosexual singer who has "been to gay bars tons of times" to write a theme song and perform it for youth, and no one should be able to criticize it--is autocratic and not at all in the tradition of the Church.
If no one was discussing this on blogs, how many people would have the knowledge to complain privately to the organizers? Very few, which is why those with autocratic tendencies don't like people to publicly discuss issues.
You are selectively posting from the Catechism. In any case, the Catechism is only infallible when it discusses dogma. Pope Benedict has stated:
"The individual doctrines that the catechism affirms have no other authority than that which they already possess. What is important is the catechism in its totality: It reflects the church's teaching; anyone who rejects it overall separates himself unequivocally from the faith and teaching of the church" ("The Catechism and the Optimism of the Redeemed," 479)."
There are one place or two in the Catechism that is flat out wrong, e.g. that Muslims worship the same God we do. However, overall one should accept the Catechism.
The Catechism is infallible when it discusses infallible dogmas. What you quoted above is hardly dogma. In any case, the people refuting the Guy Sebastian supporters, who are going on a pilgramage to Sydney to see Guy Sebastian, are hardly being uncharitable in this discussion.
One more thing: Peter is being a very clever sophist here with his autocratic definitions of "detraction."
It is important in order to understand how absurd this bogus definition of "detraction" is to give an example.
By Peter's definition of the "sin" of detraction if you criticize in any public forum whatsover decisions of liberals, you are causing harm in the Church. Wrong.
Ridiculous: By Peter's logic, Mother Angelica would be guilty by publicly going on air criticizing WYD for having a woman carrying the cross in Denver when she said: "I'm so tired of you, liberal America!" and when she criticized liberal Cardinal Mohoney for his lack of belief in the Transsubstantiation. The decision to have a woman carrying the Cross is what was wrong and causing scandal, not Mother Angelica's public criticism, which was the correct thing to do. Likewise, it is the decision to have Guy Sebastian sing that is wrong, not criticism of that decision.
As Catholics, we are supposed to bring to attention wrong things publicly that are misleading others. That is both biblical and traditional.
In any case, WYD is way overrated by many people. In fact, WYD can be more harmful than good if it gives the wrong message to youth. It is not a 1960s style celebration of youth. That would be prideful and egotistical. It is supposed to be a celebration of youth gathered together embracing orthodox Catholic teachings and putting them into play in their own lives.
Guy Sebastian confuses this message.
Does anyone remember that a similar thing happened with the WYD in Cologne when a band had given a public interview stating that the Church was in error? It was all over the Catholic media and blogs and finally they were withdrawn from WYD.
I believe there was resistance at first from the WYD organizers and it was only after many faithful, concerned Catholics had complained that the band was finally cancelled.
It would be nice if all that had to happen was a few people complain privately and the Church's teachings would be upheld however that is not the case at all, in fact far from it. Should we take it to those in authority in the Church - yes, of course. What then if the valid complaint is ignored or brushed off - which happens 99% of the time, unfortunately that is the reality. Canon law (the Church's law) makes it clear that the faithful have the obligation to uphold and protect the Church and Her teachings and speak out publicly if they are not being upheld.
Many Catholic dioceses are very clear on the fact that it is scandalous to give anyone who is pro-gay "marriage" or pro-abortion a place of honour at any Catholic event. When will our WYD organizers get that when year after year the same mistakes are made which should not happen in the first place?
JMJ
"if I didn't think Catholicism was the true religion - and I say "the" because surely there can only be one true religion, if any at all,"
If "any at all"? You are a person of conviction! The perfect modernist Catholic. "I think a is true, unless a isn't true." LOL
Gabe, you've nailed Peter's tactics dead on!
Peter, if you are trying to shut up faithful Catholics who are rightfully, lawfully, and publicly protecting the Faith and our Catholic youth then you're wasting your time. We won't shut up and we won't stop calling into account those who promote and cause scandal. Evil persists and grows because good people stay silent! The Church is already scourged by this.
I question whether you, yourself, believe that gay "marriage" and those living a homosexual lifestyle are disordered and in grave sin. Where do stand on this Church teaching?
Please reveal yourself. You say that you disagree with Sebastian as the choice but I don't think you have stated why.
JMJ
Well, I did go to confession this afternoon Peter, and I did accuse myself of the sin of detraction. After laying before the priest all the facts and circumstances and waiting on his judgment...he just laughed. I admit I was very surprised at this.
In anycase, I think some of you here might want to consider the following, remembering that the Church has the power to bind you in the internal forum (obviously), and that you can excommunicate YOURSELVES latae sentiae in certain circumstances as provided in Canon Law: from the 1983 Code of Canon LAW. Are you sure you are Catholic?
Can. 750 Those things are to be believed by divine and catholic faith which are contained in the word of God as it has been written or handed down by tradition, that is, in the single deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and which are at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church, or by its ordinary and universal magisterium, which is manifested by the common adherence of Christ's faithful under the guidance of the sacred magisterium. ****All are therefore BOUND to shun any contrary doctrines.****
[my emphasis]
Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or DOUBT, after baptism, of a truth which MUST be believed by divine and catholic faith. Apostasy is the total repudiation of the christian faith. Schism is the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him.
Can. 752 While the assent of faith is not required, a religious submission of intellect and will is to be given to any doctrine which either the Supreme Pontiff or the College of Bishops, exercising their authentic magisterium, declare upon a matter of faith or morals, even though they do not intend to proclaim that doctrine by definitive act. Christ's faithful ARE therefore to ENSURE that they avoid WHATEVER does not accord with that doctrine.
[my emphasis]
I strongly suspect that many of you who claim to be Catholic, are, in fact, simply..."busted." Claiming ignorance of what the Church teaches is not excuse as you have a POSITIVE obligation to learn your faith. Pointing a finger at your parents, priests or RCIA instructors is no excuse as the positive obligation is personal and non-transferable.
What did you think when you were confirmed? Were you bearing false witness? Mortal sin as this is a grave matter.
What are you thinking when you recite the credo? Are you bearing false witness? Mortal sin as this is a grave matter.
What are you thinking when you renew your baptismal promises? Do you bear false witness? Mortal sin as this is a grave matter.
Are you a godparent? Did you lie during the baptism?
When you receive Jesus - perhaps in the hand and standing, you know like you are at Burger King waiting for a double cheeseburger - and you say "Amen" (i.e. "I'll drive at tent peg into that".), do you believe that Jesus Christ is really, truly and substantially present, body, blood, soul and divinity under the mere appearance of bread and wine and wholly under either speacies, or do you not believe and are a heretic, bearing false witness, and possibly committing idolatry, in the midst of gross sacrilege? How many mortal sins is that?
Just asking.
This whole conversation is just sad.
Stop it.
and I meant to say, before it disappeared, none of you are advancing the kingdom through this bickering.
And I repeat.
Stop it.
Dear Anonymous: Come out from the shadows! Let's discuss. What are you afraid of? Why is this so "sad"? And if it does disappear, it says alot about the person who would delete it. God gave you a mind: use it! The institutional Church has been wrong before (Galileo, the Jews, the Inquisition - - - why even the current Pope sticks his foot in his mouth, ie the Muslims, indigenous South Americans).
And S-P V-P (what kind of name is thast?!), you've been watching too much Mother Angelica. Go read "Human Sexuality: New Directions in American Catholic Thought". Then let's disucss.
Michael,
what is wrong with the name Simon-Peter, and have you never heard of hyphenated family names. Hyphenating family names is quite common in several European countries.
And which Doctor of the Roman Catholic Church wrote the tome you suggest? Who signed off as imprimatur, or at least who signed off on its nihil obstat.
Who is the author then? You know So I can find it in the catalogue
Thank you.
So, let me get this straight. Before you are willing to debate anything, I, and anyone else willing to possibly debate with you, have to read what you've read, and yet you refuse to say, if these contain approved theology because you won't tell me if they, at least have an nihil obstat, or better an imprimatur.
Well, if you are going to set homework for this debate, I will assume this debate is in recess, until we all are properly edified to your specifications.
Further, I have never heard of numbers, in and of themselves being Holy. They may be significant of something holy, but the number itself is not holy. The only time I have heard of "numbers" being holy in and of themselves is in the Occult practice of numerology for divination.
Yes, 12 reminds me of the 12 apostles, who were definitely holy, not because they were 12 in number but because of who they were.
The only time I have heard numbers referred to as either holy or evil, in and of themselves, is in regard to numerology used for divination, which is an occult practice. And on that I won't say any more.
Peter, if you are trying to shut up faithful Catholics who are rightfully, lawfully, and publicly protecting the Faith and our Catholic youth then you're wasting your time.
On the contrary, I have actively encouraged people to submit their opinions to the WYD organisers, and I genuinely hope you all do!
My point was never that this was a good decision, I don't think it is, nor was it about silencing anyone, I hope you all send e-mails to the people who can actually do something about it. My point was that nastiness in this forum can only lead to ... well most readers have figured this out already.
I am sad that my posts seem to have been misread to allow some personal spite to be levelled at me.
Peter, please tell...why do you not think Mr. Sebastian is a good choice for the WYD anthem?
Well, I feel very offended and hurt too. I have been maligned as having bad intentions when mine are only out of love for Our Lord, Jesus and His Catholic Church. What can be bad about that? Some of you are so mean to me.
The truly practicing Catholics (that is believe everything the Church teaches, not cafeteria style) are already quite clear on who are the wolves in sheeps clothing commenting on this thread.
Interesting how the wolves in sheeps clothing always cry pooooor me, you said I was wrong and that hurt my feelings.....once they have been called to task and don't want to admit they have absolutely no intellectual idea of what they're talking about.
JMJ
Hey Michael,
Those books you listed are brutal! I had to wash my eyes out after reading those titles and authors. You are a perfect son of dissenting formation. These people were the "in" things in the 70's so I assume your professors were trained in that era.
I think you said you were from Toronto, Canada. Yes, I know the seminaries in Ontario, Canada very well since that's where I am. I have been in the M.Div. program over the past 3years so I am familiar with your dissenter-like lingo.
Everyone, Michael is our representative of Canadian seminaries.....this is the pseudo-parallel Catholic Church alive and well here. Please pray for us.
JMJ
Deborah
Please re-read my posts on this matter.
I only ever sought to exhort people to express their legitimate opinions in a way which avoids the unecessary risk or damaging the reputation of individuals, WYD or the Church as a whole.
I am sad in a general sense that anyone in this discussion has been misrepresented or had their words interpreted uncharitably. Which is one reason why these forums are not a good place for such things to be discussed.
Michael
For a person who is closer to my understanding of church than many others on this list, you need to learn some manners.
Is it any wonder I choose to remain anonymous when the anger flying around this discussion is enough to make you want to cry?
There is very little respect here. Very little love. Only Pharisical verbosity which seeks neither to heal nor unite.
And I repeat. You should all be ashamed of yourselves for behaving in such a manner.
(And obviously, in saying that, I am giving all of you plenty of ammunition. Get over it)
Some people ask questions because they seek the truth; some because of a desire to avoid it. Those who seek to avoid the truth have one thing in common: an inability to to look past form to substance because it is not truth they seek, but an excuse, and a justification for their presently-existing doubt and disobediance.
How does one characterize a pharisee? Someone who obeys the law of God? No, for that was not the charge laid against them by Him, indeed, the model we have been given to strive to emulate is that of a Man who obeyed the law of God in all things at all times seeing past mere form to the substance and, on the one hand could say "go and sin no more" yet on the other "you brood of vipers." So what characterizes a pharisee?
1. Self-appointed authority "what the Church means to me".
2. exchanging the law of God (those things revealed by the Church etc.) for the traditions of men.
3. straining at gnats (form) whilst swallowing camels (substance).
4. laying burdens on men they refuse to carry themselves whilst pretending so to do (see my earlier comments about some of you viz. canon 750 etc. get YE to confession).
You white-washed tombs, hypocrites, full of filthiness and dead-mans bones.
Wow now that was pretty uncharitable, who said that?
You are of your father the devil. Ohhhh, talk about being a divider and not seeking to heal nor unite. Listening to too many indifferentist sermons on Sunday?
He came to cast fire on the earth and the truth cleaves even unto the marrow. The problem for most of you is that God in Himself is a divider, for fallen mans reponse to Him in Himself causes division into sheep and goats, wheat and tares springing up together. He is raised up drawing all men to Himself, but, drawn not to union, (scripture is not a matter of private interpretation) but to judgment: all men are drawn to the Cross as to judgment as the Cross is a judgment on the world, it is the point that the sheep and goats intersect. It is an opportunity for perfect communion, and though He praye they all might be one, each man in viewing the Cross may freely accept or reject God's judgment not just on the the corporate entity that is mankind, but on HIMSELF alone.
It is YOU who stands judged by the cross and must accept that judgment (be a good thief) to escape it...you must lose your life in order to save it. The rank hypocrisy is that found in the partial acceptance, the cake and eat it crowd, in those who do not seem to be able to recognize that the one thing Satan cannot counterfeit is obedience.
Obediance. That is our problem, that was the solution: perfect adherence to the will of God in all things at all times.
And people wonder why others post anonymously!
Of my Father the Devil!! I mean Really! Surely you know by your caricature of anyone who disagrees with you that I couldn't possibly believe in such a thing!
Talk about "Self-appointed authority -what the Church means to me".
You Simon Peter are a scared little man, and yes thats liberal psychoanalysis of religion. PLEASE!
LEarn to be civil or does your "religion" forbid it?
Chesterton was nothing if not forthright and loving as he duelled.
Of my Father the Devil!! I mean Really! Surely you know by your caricature of anyone who disagrees with you that I couldn't possibly believe in such a thing!
Talk about "Self-appointed authority -what the Church means to me".
You Simon Peter are a scared little man, and yes thats liberal psychoanalysis of religion. PLEASE!
LEarn to be civil or does your "religion" forbid it?
Chesterton was nothing if not forthright and loving as he duelled.
Have you cracked a Bible lately? John 8:44:
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Who do you think said that? Hint: if you've got one of those Bibles where Jesus' words are printed in red, those words would be red.
Michael- What a horrendous list of discredited Modernist theologians you posted. These dinosaur heretics may have been popular in the 1960s, but in case you haven't noticed the Church has brushed those errors aside (like it has done with heresy after heresy) and those Modernist theologians have been relegated the trash bin of heretics. Get with the times. You are supposed to learn from mistakes, not be mired in their filth of ignorance.
Since you receiving such a postmodern noneducation at in your theology department, I suggest you begin anew in your studies. How about Ludwig Ott's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, one of the required texts for Christendom's graduate level Intro to Theology?
Do you ever pray in front of the Blessed Sacrament or say the Rosary?
"It must disturb you that the vast majority of Catholics do not accept your anti-intellectual approach to faith."
Truth is NOT determined by a majority vote.
-- Then Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI
It must disturb you that the vast majority of Catholics do not accept your anti-intellectual approach to faith. Maybe one or two parishes in Detroit cater to this nonsense (eg. Assumption Grotto). They might have 50 or so families.
This could be what Jesus meant when He said, "when the Son of man comes, will he find faith on earth?" (Luke 18:8 ) Or when He said, "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few. (Matthew 7:13-14)
But your pastel colored theology might console you in your fear but doesn't bear up on closer scrutiny.
Yep...it's been not bearing up on close scrutiny for the last couple thousand years.
There was a time when the Rome insisted that the Sun revolved around the earth, notwithstanding over-whelming evidence to the contrary. Alot of good catholics suffered as a result of the kind of rigourous nonsense to which you suscribe. 400 years later the Rome apologized to Galileo. What does that tell you? The doctrine of infallibility was not articulated until the late 19th century. It has been rarely invoked since.
Do you think the Church can lead you astray in matters of faith and morals? If not, what are you worried about? And if so, why are you Catholic?
Trust me: we are running out of priests.
Sorry, but we all know what two words "trust me" is code for...and it's not something that can be repeated on a family blog.
When the money starts running short in Rome watch how we'll suddenly develope a theology for a married priesthood. And it will happen long before the much over-rated JPII is canonized.
Yawn.
So Antia, in all seriousness, what would you, and Simon - peter etc, do if Rome DID decided to accept Married Priests (Which of course they allready have with received Anglican ministers - so the idea seems to be two tiered at the moment)?
Would you split?
Join a continuning Roman Trad. movement?
Confrim to a church law you disagreed with while it tore you apart?
Because, Stranger things have happened...
I can tell you speak on your own authority, that you are used to thinking with your own opinion, because you assume I am a one like yourself, obsessed with his own mind. I come across this again, and again and again: cite a Catechism, "that's just your opinion", cite scripture and commentary thereon, "that's just your opinion" cite a Pope "that's just your opinion" a council "that's just your opinion" a father or doctor of the Church "that's just your opinion."
I have posted straight from Church teaching over and over and over again and the constant refrain is "we do not like your tone." Substance be hanged!
Not one of you who keep banging on about tone seem to think your TONE is offensive: stuffed with pride, arrogance, disobediance and doubt; fomenting dissent and loss of faith, an end to hope and diminution of charity.
The fear, anon, is looking *you* right in the mirror.
You cannot even recognize me citing to you some of the tougher words of Christ.
Once again I note a, almost complete failure to comment or remark upon anything I have said from the beginning that speaks to substance and is drawn from Church teaching.This is par from the course, natural from those whose unanimity consists in this "you confirm me in my errors, I'll confirm you in yours, and let's agree to go after anyone who dares to question our sincerity or belief."
Anyway, I'm done with this. I've thrown up plenty of meat from the Church, but again and again you refuse it and focus on me. How like the narcissists you are.
Come on lad. Answer the question in good humour and stop hiding behind accusations.
Anonymous, you are aware that there is more to the Catholic Church than the Latin Rite? Some Eastern Catholic Churches do ordain married men (Ukrainian, Greek, etc). Most reasonably well catechized Catholics know that celibacy is a discipline, not a doctrine. The Holy Father could change this tomorrow (more or less). All faithful Catholics would respect this decision. I'm not sure why you think that we would split from the Church over such an issue?????
I am very aware thankyou.
I quoted this issue, as one among many, which radical tradionalists, often quote as been an issue, such as ordained women.
To a certain extent, this issue doesn't matter, but I am interested in what changes would force people of an extreme conservatism to leave the church.
Any ideas?
and before anyone jumps down my throat again, I don't want ANYONE to leave the church - we can ALL exist togther and continue to dialogue with charity.
Thanks so much for the links above.I surely will contact them to tell them how disgusted I am with the behaviour of the majority of Catholics on this site. I will tell them that they have expressed hatred towards the non-catholics on the thread, especially protestants. I shall tell them that a young man has had his life torn apart by these people who know nothing about him as a person, and base their hatred on a newspaper article. I shall also say to them that I hope the heading of this website, " not your average Catholic" is true, because I would hate to think that all Catholics follow this path.
Way to go Inez!
We are in june now and counting down the days and waiting for the arrival of the cross and iconwhich will take place on 1st July at Darling Harbour when Guys WYD song "Receive The Power' will be unveiled.
I personly can not wait.
The subject of this thread - the World Youth Day 2008 song - there's a link to it here in this article.
mms://media01.news.com.au/hwt/wyd.wmv
I cant believe people will take a news article as gospel, lol talk about misquoting at its finest...
Guy and Paulini sang the WYD theme song "Receive the Power" over the weekend at Darling Harbour in Sydney. It's a beautiful song. They are beautiful young Christian people. I invite you all to open your eyes and ears and listen to the lyrics and the powerful message of the song
:)
i cant believe their was no faithful Catholic Musician to write and perform the song? Guy Sebastian,a member of a typical a-moralworldly charismati'non-nondenominational' Sect(i know i used to belong to a sister movement of it), will publicly represent a WITNESS at a Catholic youth world wide event, and resultingly be seen as a model for Catholic youth , yet he publicly sees no problem with Gay 'marriage', and the homosexuals lifestyle,which completely contrary to Catholic Moral Teaching and natural Law. should he be perfect ?no of copurse not, but should someone in the spotlight uphold in response ,Catholic teaching and faith publicly when asked? yes
its not called Australian (american, canadian)'IDOL' for nothing...
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