AmericanPapist Comments
Hasn't there already been black popes?
Victor (183-203 A.D.), Gelasius (492-496 A.D.), and Mechiades or Militiades (311-314 A.D.) were black popes. Is there a particular reason they are being ignored?
Scott W and Joe-I was going to say the same thing.
The good Archbishop ought to read his Church History before he talks to the MSM.....
Because the media (and sadly, seemingly Archbishop Gregory) don't have a memory that goes back that far.
I was about to say the same thing as Scott...yet Joe has answered.
...but if the HS leads us to Arinze in the future, no complaints here.
Sadly, many forget that the Church doesn't need to get more "multicultural" because its always been made up from many cultures and many races.
That said, considering the mess Europe and the USA seems to be in, it is also likely the next Pope could be from Asia, or South America as well. But, I guess that didn't fit the "story" the "journalist" wanted to tell.
In the latter years, a few African cardinals have been suggested as papabili including Cardinal Arinze.
It is hard to remember when milestones have already been reached with 2000 years of history. I also think this shows that the Church has ALWAYS judged someone by the content of their character rather than the color of their skin.
Can't we get beyond race already?
my brother in law who is an ATL seminarian told me that his brother seminarians from other dioceses are making fun of him.
I give a few of his quotes about his own position as former president of the CCB my own treatment over at my blog - romancatholicbychoice.com. Please, go, comment, etc.
I am debating an editorial in our diocesan paper, since he's my ordinary.
Victor (183-203 A.D.), Gelasius (492-496 A.D.), and Mechiades or Militiades (311-314 A.D.)
Were the black, or were they African, or were they both?
Malachi Martin wrote back in 1975 in the Last Conclave that Cardinal Gantin might be elected as Pope someday!
A black pope? Saints preserve us! A Jesuit as pope, omigosh!
I don't see what the big deal here is. The Church has a large portion of it's members in Africa right now. I recall hearing the same thing about Pope Benedict XVI commeting on an African Pope. I don't see that as the Church using affirmative Action or 'having' to elect a Black man as Pope. I see it as the Church realizing that it's face is changing and that there may in the future be good cause to elect a Black Pope. Don't see the big deal here. You don't really expect the media to kow that there were Black Popes that long ago, do you?
My problem with stories like this is that it overlooks the fact that we have a perfectly serviceable pope already.
I am so bloody sick and tired of EVERYTHING going by what shade of skin folks have....
Seriously, WHY?!?! I don't dislike Obama 'cus he's black, I dislike him because he's socialistic and won't defend babies.
I don't love B16 because he's German, I love him because he's a good Pope.
I was kind of rooting for Arinze the last time around, but the Holy Spirit is much wiser than I.
The three North African popes from the ancient Church were white, not black. North Africa was part of the Roman Empire and part of the Latin/Western Church. Many famous Fathers were African (but not black), such as St. Augustine and St. Cyprian.
So no, the Church has never had a black pope. We will soon, though, I'll bet.
@Foxfier-
Good post!!
"The three North African popes from the early Church were white, not black."
Evidence?
Ed Peters, I hope that most folks know that your "black pope" comment refers to Jesuits! It seems like some folks are race-obsessed, i.e. liberals. If the election of Barack Obama accomplishes anything, I hope it's to end the race-obsessed, left-wing loon media's fixation on race. But that's probably asking too much.Tom
Hehe, googling "Black Pope" brings up a bunch of Jesuits stuff, some "END TIMES!!!" stuff, and some generic Christian sites that wonder if Arinze could be "the first African Pope."
Most of the trustworthy places I've checked point out that the Romans didn't usually record what folks looked like, just where they were from and if they were citizens.
There were Mauritanians (Moors) in part of North Africa. For example, Juba, whom I believe is generally acknowledged to have been black. There was even a famous Moorish warrior queen who was North Africa's last defender against Islam.
So as to our three North African popes, we have insufficient data. The really important part to Romans would have been the Carthaginian heritage -- clever, passionate people who ran the breadbasket of the empire, and tended to be either staunch Orthodox or crazy heretical or holier-than-thou schismatics. Not a lukewarm set of people, whatever they decided to get interested in.
Not a lukewarm set of people, whatever they decided to get interested in.
They sound almost Irish!
Cultural heritage, that is. The Romans were decidedly against the whole worshipping Moloch thing. That was one reason that Old Carthage got sowed with salt, and why the new harbor was settled by the Romans with people from all around. But the Carthaginians would marry anybody, and their gods had pretty much proved themselves inferior to Roman ones, so anyway....
"North African heritage" would have been a better way for me to put it.
Sorry to be confusing.
Foxfier, amen.
PS weren't we all sorta rootin' for Arinze before we even heard of Obama?
Chrysologus, we don't know what color they were. Romans themselves had more in common with "brown" Middle Easterners than with "white" Teutons. Cleopatra was undoubtably of mixed "race" and Romans had no American "hang ups" with intermarriage. That they were from Africa assuredly means they were as "mixed" as Obama
http://www.nbccongress.org/black...rican-
popes.asp
This goes right back to making this a racial issue, which it isn't. 1/6 of the worlds population is Chinese. Where will be the milestone if a Chinese Bishop is elected? You see how this is an argument of style over substance, color over ability?
Can't we get beyond race?
I guess, if Gregory is implying he voted for Obama, that, for him, race trumps the beliefs of the Catholic Church regarding voting for a pro-abortion candidate.
Ok... apparently whether or not these three Popes were actually "black" or not is a mystery.
Given the fact that many doctors of the early church were indeed "black," and the lack of controversy surrounding the race of these three, it seems to me that a clear picture is painted of early Catholic thinking that says that the "blackness" of the pope would have been a non-issue.
Further evidence that I was right to join the Tiber Swim Team (class of '04)
Welcome, Joe!
The reference to then-Ratzinger calling for a black pope is as follows:
Call for an African to be next pontiff:
The prospect of a black Pope yesterday won backing from the most influential quarter when the current pontiff's chief theologian said he would like to see the next head of the Roman Catholic church come from Africa.
Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who heads the Vatican's congregation for the doctrine of faith, said: "I personally feel that this would be a good sign for Christendom in its entirety." His comment was seen as backing for the candidacy of the Nigerian prelate Francis Arinze.
Cardinal Ratzinger's remarks, in an interview with the German daily Die Welt, were exceptional in more than one respect. It is highly unusual for anyone in the Vatican, let alone such a senior figure, to speculate openly on the papal succession. It is considered gross bad taste, implying as it does that the reigning pontiff's days are numbered. ...
"In the west, for all that people deny being racist, there are ever greater reservations with regard to the Third World," he said. "Yet in Africa, for example, we have truly great figures, at whom one can only marvel. They are fully of the stature needed for the job."
Maybe Gregory would be more helpful to his flock if he followed the example of Bishop Holley of Washington and called for black women to forsake abortion rather than focusing on whether the next pope should be black.
Like some other people have said, theres debate over what "race" the three popes of African origin were. We dont really know, because at the time no one CARED what race the pope was.
The sources i've seen seem to indicate that they were likely Berber, like St. Augustine.
Either way, we've had PLENTY of non-white popes.
As a black catholic young woman (African), I am sick and tired of people talking about race all the time. It just sickens me. Black pope, white pope, yellow pope, it DOES NOT MATTER! The Holy Spirit decides. If anything, after Europeans, maybe we should have popes from South America or the Phillippines first.
I look forward to a modern black pope so I can engage in some demagougery and accuse dissidents and anti-Catholics of being racist.
Think abortion is OK? You are racist!
Sola Scriptura? How racist!
The Pope isn't the head of the Church on Earth? What a racist!
Try it, it is fun!
In conspiracy circles, the "black pope" refers to the head of the Jesuits who supposedly really controls the pope.
Conspiracy nuts think that the Jesuits are agents of the devil and control the church so as to control the world.
Crazy lunatics.
My money is on Archbishop Ranjith....
It's been said...but...HELLOOOO! St. Victor? St. Gelasius? St Militiades?
"the election of Mr Obama was 'a great step forward for humanity...'"
Dear Bishop Gregory, It'd be great to have a black Pope, or a Chinese one:
but if they were pro-abortion and gay marriage I think we could safely say they are anti-popes...or maybe, gulp,
even the anti-Christ.
I hope Bishop Holley gives Bp. Gregory a little talking to the mass genocide of black people via abortion.
tjm, if people coming to a major Catholic blog don't know what "the Black Pope" is, well, that's their problem, right? :)
I sometimes have a rash thought where I wish we could all have the Lego miniman skin tone, and just be done with 'race'!
:-D
As a member of Gregory's flock, I have written a letter to the editor of our diocesan paper asking for a clarification on this from my shepherd; I have posted this letter onto my blog...check it out. This story has already driven me onto the front page of google...on, to the top of the page!
The Church has had 3 African Popes in its long history; (1) Victor (183-203 A.D.), (2 Gelasius (492-496 A.D.), and (3) Mechiades or Militiades (311-314 A.D.). There was some discussion of them being white and not black since being from northern African but the last time I checked northern Africa was still part of the continent of African therefore they were African. The early church has benefited greatly from popes, church fathers and the like who were from all walks of life and who were from all over the then Roman Empire. Let us not get bogged down by modern day "colonial thought" and "concepts". Sadly the Church "Catholic" was much more "Universal" in its past than in its present day.
Dear Chris, God Bless you in your efforts to reduce scandal by seeking clarification from your Bishop. Your letter is well written and respectful. I hope you, and those in the local Church in Atlanta get the clarity needed on this issue: especially regarding how electing President who is notoriously pro-abortion and friendly to gay "marriage" would be a "great step forward for humanity."
Keep up the good work and please keep us informed!
Re: comments by then-Cdl. Ratzinger
Heh. Translation: "Elect Arinze. Anyone thinking of me for pope, forget it. Elect Arinze, so I can retire and go write books. I'm voting for him, not me! Aaaaaariiiiiiinzeeeeeeee...."
It seems that Archbishop Gregory might have been saying that a black Pope might follow not because the Church looks to America to elect the next pope but just simply because there was a pattern of electing men of European descent in America as it is for the papacy. Now obviously the difference is our country struggled with racism while the papacy does not, maybe Gregory could more easily see a black pope being elected (who comes into office through the Holy Spirit -- no discrimination there!) now that a black president has been elected (who was elected by a nation that can be very discriminate).
But it also makes sense that a non european pope will be elected since the Church is becoming more diverse (and so archbishops and bishops are becoming more diverse)
sorry for the run on sentences :)
Okay, I have located an image of St. Melchiades. This oughta put it to rest, we most certainly have had at least ONE black Pope, so Bishop Gregory was incorrect.
I'm in the archdiocese of Atlanta. Personally, I am not impressed with Wilton.
btw -- Mr. Obama is not black -- he's mulatto.
Joe, let's give him the respect his position deserves...
btw -- Mr. Obama is not black -- he's mulatto.
As someone with a white father and black mother,I have always found the term mulatto extremely offensive becasue it's kind of deragatory and refers to "mule", I hate the notion that if someone cannot perfectly fit into one racial definition, people have to start making new ones to define them.
This headline is one of the silliest things I've ever heard. The fact that we can "finally elect a black Pope" implies that in the past we couldn't.
So is the Holy Spirit finally getting over his racial barriers? :)
Yeah, I found the comparison between Cdl. Arinze and Obama to be a bit distressing. After all, Cdl. Arinze doesn't think he is the Messiah. He also appears to have a rather different view on abortion that the President-Elect.
http://www.rcan.org/bca/images/m...hiades-st1.jpg)
Here is the picture of St. Melchiades.
it seems it is those people who are members of such minority groups who always insist on referring to themselves by their group identity rather than their individual identity. Joe was simply mentioning Obama's group identity.
Obama said it himself in his victory speech - "we aren't a bunch of individuals" he said.
Ed Peters, I'm not so sure about some of the people who come to this blog. Some have a real difficulty understanding that abortion is an intrinsic evil whereas war and capital punishment are not. Given the poor catechesis of the past 40 years, I don't assume anything about Catholics anymore. All the best, Tom
I see your point, tjm. Mine still stands, no?: ie, it's still their problem. :)
TJM-
Have you ever met the guy who goes by "Spirit of Vatican II"?
He's a priest, and HE has trouble with the same... also supports homosexual marriage.
I see your point, tjm. Mine still stands, no?: ie, it's still their problem. :)
Ultimately, yes. But I wouldn't want them to suffer eternally for their problem (obstinance). My thoughts hearken back the the description of the Final Judgment in the book of Wisdom (chapters 4 and 5, I believe).
Ed: I agree with your statement up to this point: "Sadly the Church "Catholic" was much more "Universal" in its past than in its present day."
The church has never been more universal than it is right now. But we could really stregthen our ties with th promotion of the Latin Mass. Given B16s comments prior to being Pope shows he was looking at Arinze.
ONLY the U.S. has this hang up about race. It is not a big issue in the rest of the Catholic world.
Can't we get beyond race?
Can't we get beyond race?
Probably not. It's too valuable of a political weapon to get rid of.
On that note, I seriously doubt "race" will no longer be an issue with the Obama presidency. I happen to think that it will become more of an issue in the coming years. I hope with all my might that I'm wrong.
Agreed
Obama said it himself in his victory speech - "we aren't a bunch of individuals" he said.
Nope, we are Americans-little else needs to be said.
One thing that the "let's elect a black pope" crowd overlooks is that generally the current pope has to die before a new one is chosen--and I don't think anyone is asking for Papa Benedict to pass on just yet.
Germany is more racist than we are. It is difficult for non-Germans to integrate. My son's old classmate there has a German mother and a black American Dad. He related to my son recently how he is also being body-searched by German police, for no reason at all. He was surprised to hear that this did not happen here (without due cause)in the US. He was quite upset that my son was voting for McCain.
I thought that was Holy Spirit that chooses Popes. What the church needs, the church will have. Skin is the last thing.
PS: Some years ago, a black girl won "Miss Italy" beauty contest. An italian reggae group named "Pitura freska" ("Fresh paint") singing in venetian dialect made a song named "Papa nero" (Black Pope) that went
"Sara' vero?
dopo Miss Italia aver un Papa nero?
no me par vero...
un Papa nero che scolta 'le me canson in venessian
parche' el 'se nero african"
("It will be true? After Miss Italy to have a black Pope? I cannot believe it...a Black Pope that hears my song in venetian dialect because is an african black").
That song made the italian top hit for several weeks...
I think that Abp. Gregory Bernardin is actually lobbying for his own election to Pope. While there already has been black Popes, and the greatest doctor of the West, St. Augustine, was probably "black enough" to qualify for most people who can't get beyond skin color, the Abp's statement is rather scary for several reasons.
1) He was once head of the USCCB and still has quite a bit of influence, yet he doesn't know Church history.
2) He's willing to overlook the crime of abortion, ESCR, and gay marriage for popular culture... and he's an Archbishop (even Mahoney, his contemporary publicly fought against gay marriage).
The Holy Spirit has no race criterion.
Would that bishops would also not impose social agendas upon the Church!
All that matters is that the Pope be orthodox in faith and hopefully also a holy bishop.
In the meantime, isn't it offense and improper to speak of the "next" Pope while the present Pope is still alive.
Don't know if my comment made it through. If not, here it is again. The racism evident in this article and comments are a shocking expose of both American and apparently white "Catholic" culture. This website and the blogging in general are real eye-openers for those of us who never imagined that Catholics could proudly articulate this kind of ignorant, backwater, anti-Christian bigotry. I frankly wish you the worst in all your endeavors to embarrass the rest of us.
0.o
"The Holy Spirit choses the Pope," "the Pope isn't dead, isn't a bit tacky to suggest the next guy?" and "we HAVE probably had 'black' Popes already, just nobody cared" translates into racism.
Riiiiiiiiight......
Anyone else lovin' the assumption that everyone here is 'white'?
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