AmericanPapist Comments
As a priest said to a young woman wearing a low cut top approaching communion, "Have you come to receive the Lord or nurse him? Go put something on and get back in line." - A true story.
I once saw a girl cut in line (the irony there should be apparent) for communion sporting short-shorts that read in glittery, calligraphed letters "Devil." Still bemused to this day.
I am a big fan of ankle length jumpers. I think it's time for a comeback.
I believe in dressing up for church for a couple of reasons. While God is present in our lives on a daily basis. God is fully present while we are at Mass. I do not show up to meetings with important people in shorts and a T-shirt, why would I show up to receive the Lord in shorts and a t-shirt. Also as someone who battles with Custody of his eyes it would be nice to have one place to not have to worry about it like during mass. At the same time most of the people at my church that I see inapproriatly dressed are teenagers and younger with there parents. As parents we must take responsiblity for a child spiritual growth which includes how the respect the Lord and the Church. It upsets me when I hear people say well at least they are at church. If we can make the effort to make it to church we can make the effort to put on pants (or an appropriate length skirt) and a nice shirt. It is these small things that are degrading our faith. The last thing I will say is that as a child I went to communion in shorts (I had just returned from vaction earlier that day)the priest patted me on the head and said dress like you are in the presence of the Lord, blessed me and sent me on my way. That was 25 years ago and I have not been to mass in shorts since.
For my own comfort, my summer wardrobe is mostly ankle-length skirts and short sleeved knit tops. I never have to adjust my clothing when I'm down on the floor with my kids or out on the playground, or approaching the Eucharist. Yep, it's probably kinda frumpy, but it really seems to inspire respectful behavior from people in public, and nobody ever has trouble maintaining eye contact with me :)
I find myself wondering what kind of self-concept women have, when they show so much of their bodies. If I had a bare midriff or visible cleavage, my friends would know to be very worried about me. Why do some people really think this is okay?
So very very true. Me and girl-friend are going out next weekend to find some good dresses, I cringe to think of how hard it will be :(
Yes, so true...especially at the beach churches, it is really nice to bring an appropriate bikini cover-up...matching,ofcourse.Sun hats are good too. And don't forget your sunglasses and sun-block lotion.
I just hope that Pure Fashion is always up-front about its Regnum Christi connection. I have many acquaintances who were surprised to find that this apostolate was a very expensive means of having their daughters recruited into the larger group.
giselle,
i see a lot of things where people are looking skance at Regnum Christi.
Here, we have an apostolate that reaches out to young women, and gives them an alternative to the "slut fashions" that predominate. Yet you are concerned about the "Regnum Christi" connection.
They seem to be doing work that no one else will, so i don't understand the problem.
I don't want to hijack the thread into RC vs. The World, so I'll just say the high school girls from my parish were heavily involved in the pure Fashion Show in Louisville, and on Sunday, they show up for mass, modestly dressed yet still beautiful young girls. I think it's a good thing.
Errrm. Well, dressing modestly is not difficult with a little thought (layering with camisoles has a way of eliminating low-necklines).
Annnd. Feelings of alienation do not arise simply from dressing modestly amidst many immodest people but from dressing modestly and keeping company that give you reason to believe they think less of you for dressing modestly.
But, the only time I've ever felt ridiculous or alienated was when I wore bobby socks to a college class - no one pointed and laughed, but it *is* ridiculous to wear bobby socks or a poodle skirt.
So, one must distinguish between the causes of the feelings of alienation - in one, the company one keeps simply isn't a company that recognizes the virtue of modesty. In the other, the cause is that you *are* being ridiculous and comprehend that on some level - and you should feel discomfitted!
So dress with fashion, but dress modestly. And long/knee-length skirts are almost always in fashion (just check out the very hip store Anthropologie), so I don't think it's legitimate to claim that dressing fashionably precludes dressing modestly.
As to the aim of Pure Fashion - to get women to respect their bodies and to treat it not as an object or allowing it to be objectified (insofar as they are able), or using it as a means to objectify others - I think that's a fine goal. I don't know any of the methods they use/will use, though, so couldn't comment on the particular group's um... charism?
***note** I wasn't wearing just bobby socks, but bobby-socks and a poodle-ish skirt.
Just to be nerdy, the "frog boiling in water" thing is urban legend. See, http://www.snopes.com/critters/w...ld/
frogboil.asp
Good thing I go to the Latin Mass-they have a dress code.
Hey Joseph-like the priest's comment to the girl with the low-cut blouse!
From the FAQ's on the PF website: "Pure Fashion helps girls to learn how to choose clothing from their favorite stores or from the Mall that is trendy but still tasteful, pretty but not provocative. We show them how to choose modern styles that still fully cover their bodies."
I think that Pure Fashion fills a real need in our secular world which encourages teen girls to dress sexy in order to fit in. PF offers girls an alternative: dress modest. Be pure of heart!
Our priests down south must be more vocal, because plenty of them tell the crowd to dress with modesty. Out of respect for self and others. A friend of mine shared a story about a young man who was in line to receive Communion and there was this girl in front of him with less than the minimum required clothing. He taped her on he shoulder and told her that thanks to her, he now could not receive Communion because he now had to go to Confession first. Now, this might enfuriate some that read this, but I think the young boy was being honest in that both parties need to be responsible here. This is a two sided coin: If we expect our boys/men to be chaste, then as women we must also be expected to dress accordingly.
Yes, and it is the socalled Catholic and orthodox brides who belie their professed love of God with their bare shoulders! These are graduates of Ave Maria, etc!! All you brides, the custom is to cover the bride-long sleeves and ankle length gowns,etc. not to uncover her for the public!
I think that modesty in the Church referred to the Church militant, and not specifically to the House of God.
Also - wearing a gown that reveals shoulders is not an indication of the state of a soul or its relation to God, especially since there are plenty of off-shoulder gowns that are completely modest! I agree that sleeves are preferable, but I disagree that bare shoulders in Church are always unacceptable. (See: http://upload.wikimedia.org/
wiki...ncess_Royal.jpg - for example. Warning! Completely safe for work!)
Deirdre-I recognize that woman in that painting! It's Princess Vicky, the eldest daughter of Queen Victoria! The women in the Prussian court always had to wear low-cut gowns.
Is that painting by Franz Winterhalter?
oi some of you are HARSH! Yes, thank God for the Latin Mass, but not because of it's dress code-and why so hard on the women getting married from Ave? And what is with ankle length skirts?? ugh. ick!
I'm young and find at knee skirts, pants and tops that are just fine. I'm not a skinny minny who fits everything either.
I'm also a very dedicated daily Mass goer and often attendant at adoration-my point being that dress does not indicate holiness. It indicates a lack of teaching, to be sure, so I ask all of you who are critical: What are you doing to evangelize and catechize?
I get that dress affect men-and men, I tell the ladies I work with to honor their brothers by attending to how they dress, and men to yes, have custody of the eyes (Ps Thomas, can we not call this "women's issues" in your tags? It is an issue for both sexes to deal with, just in different ways).
Modest, yet becoming, is how one holy and attractive woman who was my role model said it to me. No need to look frumpish and out dated. It takes work, but it can be done. And you can keep your holiness in tact as well!! (and the men around you...)
Hear, hear, Jen!
(And, yes, Irishgirl, it is by Franz Winterhalter.)
The Protestant daughter of Queen Victoria is not our role model.
Yes, bare shoulders and bare arms are immodest, and yes before you jump to erroneous conclusions, I talk about it with my sons and give books to their friends. They are kids and are slaves to being 'cool'. How is being a fashion slave Christian?
I show them my wedding dress-long sleeved and with a high neck and ankle length and it stops all their excuses! I had to ban the showing of wedding pictures from their Ave Maria grad friends in my house.
Few ever give young women good advice. Instead they are told there is no objective standard or there is silence. Dressing like prostitutes is not acceptable for Christians anytime. I used to have to walk by some prostitutes on my way to daily Mass and they dressed no differently from 50% of the women in that city. The other 50% were Muslim and were covered in public.
Never claimed that she was a role model. I claimed her dress was modest.
I suppose I should ask how you define modesty - not what you consider *to be* modest (i.e. bare shoulders), rather than simply having a shouting match about what is modest (yes it is! no it isn't! yes it is!).
Also - being Christian does not mean you can't dress in fashion. Augustine addressed this in one of his later books in the City of God - so long as it's modest, who *cares* if it's also fashionable?
And - there are good Muslims and there are bad Muslims. But in my experience, Muslim societies generally tend to repress women, so I don't think they are a good model.
Why is modesty always assumed to be a "women's issue?"
And I'm not talking about "custody of the eyes" for men, either, I'm referring to male immodest dress.
Men in shorts at Mass. Men who have no business wearing plain-front slacks *will* wear them, and they also *will* believe despite ample evidence to the contrary that they still wear the same pant size they did when they were nineteen years old. Men wearing skin tight jeans and tee shirts; men who *think* they're modestly dressed, when they are wearing a dress shirt with no tee-shirt underneath--way too revealing, gentlemen!
I, for one, am tired of hearing that this is a female problem. Gentlemen, dress modestly at Mass!
...dress does not indicate holiness. It [often] indicates a lack of teaching.
Amen.
There is so much to be said on the subject of modesty, on fashion and femininity - there's just not enough room here or in any comment box. So many women have not been taught how to be feminine (and that includes being modest) and we have so few resources to teach us. With PF and magazines such as Eliza, perhaps that is changing.
Theology of the Body is so often presented for engaged and married couples. But in truth, every single day our bodies either are or are not giving expression to our faith. We want to leave our bodies out of faith until girls (and women, and men too) appear on the streets and even at mass inapropriately clad. Many of us cover ourselves as much as possible to avoid being immodest but without asking what our appearance is expressing: Am I expressing gratitude for my body? Am I expressing joy? Am I approachable? Am I feminine or a kick-ass broad? Is my appearance an impediment to marriage or to accomplishing any other work God has for me?
Anyone who feels such questions are irrelevant is failing to understand that our bodies participate in our holiness. How can we celebrate the Feast of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary and not realize that our bodies hunger and reach out for God? They require attention and care just like our souls and psyches. And while that care must not be excessive, it must not be inadequate either.
Over the next few weeks, I plan to launch a new blog specifically for unmarried women who are trying to live the language of the body in their current state of life. (Who knows, men might find something useful too.) I'm launching it because we are desperate for teachers. Women need to befriend and help each other learn what our mothers failed to teach us. Who knows, we might even be able to get a few of the scantily clad girls to dress properly for mass.
meh. Pure Fashion is a fundraiser.
Modesty is important, but it looks like this "apostolate" is catering to young women's vanity and the LC's love for cash. Today's Gospel at the TLM Mass was about serving two masters, God or Mammon (Mt 6:24-34 or so). In part: "And for raiment why are you solicitous? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they labor not, neither do they spin. But I say to you, that not even Solomon in all his glory was arrayed as one of these." (Douay-Mt 6:28-29)
When I lived in Monterey, I attended San Carlos Cathedral. Our former pastor, when he was not celebrating Mass, would stand in the church door and inform people as they tried to enter the church, if they weren't dressed properly, that they could not enter the church.
Remember, if your outfit isn't allowed in St. Peter's Basilica, you should not wear it here!
why don't you people mind your own business this is a free country if you don't like it don't look at the person!!!
why don't you people mind your own business this is a free country if you don't like it don't look at the person!!!
Yes, it is a free country. And establishments are free to establish dress codes. "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service". It applies to Mass as well.
well a priest never says that here in RI I think he was out of line by saying that what if he says to the wrong person he might end up getting shot he is to be careful who he says that to in this day and age
well a priest never says that here in RI
Without any context, I don't think that finding an example of a priest oblivious to immodesty at mass bears on the question of whether there ought to be standards of dress at Mass.
I think he was out of line by saying that what if he says to the wrong person he might end up getting shot he is to be careful who he says that to in this day and age
It is a priest's duty to do what is right regardless of the consequences.
I think Bishop Sheen would have asked Barbara: "So what's your sin?"
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