AmericanPapist Comments
Father Jeffrey Mickler of the Society of St. Paul has a thoughtful review of the Golden Compass Trilogy. He warns parents of its content but explains how they can positively use it. View it here: http://www.lovetobecatholic.com/
...ook_review.html
I think a mention of "anti-Magesterium" needs to be included in every and any Catholic review. Needs to be pounded into the heads of the Catholic public that this book means to destroy the Catholic Church. "Anti-Catholic" is too friendly a term, in my opinion. Why? Because if you look at pop culture in general, everything's anti-catholic. Realty tv, rock music, video games, many books. This book HATES the Magesterium and purposefully attempts to ingrain an evil idea into the minds of children. "Friendly" demons that help children through life? Yeah, it's in there....but "the Magesterium" is evil? So, NO. I don't agree with Father Jeffrey. God bless him, I know he means well, because there are a lot of Catholics who won't walk the line...but you can't be a softie on this issue and go so far as to say "Now, do I say that poeple should not have their children read these books? Not at all.." He proposes using these books as a tool to begin talking to their children about these subjects..."because throughout their lives, they're going to hear repeated over and over again, all that's wrong with religion, all that's wrong with faith, all that's worng with authority...to be forwarned is to be forarmed." No. I don't need this series to explain badness to my children. Nor do I need to spend my money buying every ungodly book to explain how there's evil in the world. Should I read an adult romance to them to illustrate fornication and adultry? Should I bring drugs into my home and explain (snort) and show their effects because "they're gonna be faced with it later, anyway...to be forwarned is to be forarmed." This isn't a learning tool for children. It's a tool to confuse when it's NOT condemned. Lining the pockets of this guy Pullman and helping make the books NYTimes Bestsellers -- no Catholic should have anything to do with it. Get over your discomfort, people. Don't be afraid to boycott.
I read fiction as a youth. I enjoyed it, and my parents encouraged it. Fiction means not real. I recall the outrage over The Da Vinci Code. Fake is fake is fake. I guess I don't get bent out of shape over matters of works of fiction.
Says Pullman, "I'm a militant atheist, and my intention is to convert people." I think it's appropriate to discriminate fiction from atheistic, Catholic Church hatin' propaganda, don't you think? You're an adult. You make your own choice about the drivel you read. Children, however, will typically read whats in front of them/what's bought for them/what's allowed into their CATHOLIC home ... "...my parents encouraged it." Case in point.
I've read the books, and I was quite frankly shocked by the vitriol of the anti-Catholicism of the series. The whole premise, which doesn't become clear until late in the series, is that the patriarchal Male Deity is a subversive element, who is not omnipotent, nor omnibenevolent. God as we know him is a rebel angel who managed to overthrow "Goddess" at the beginning of the world. The protagonists of the series are morally ambigious, and many of the most intriguing characters are pure evil, for instance the character played by Nicole Kidman is a kidnapper who experiments with soul-cision, the cutting out of the soul from children. Nor is Lord what-his-face, played by Daniel Craig any different, though he is technically on the 'other' side. The little girl around whom the series focuses is thrown into the midst of this heated conflict over who rules in heaven, and things spiral out of control from there. Don't get me wrong, its really well written, incredibly imaginative, and captivating. The ideas are well presented, but they are poisonous none the less. Also, I'm not some crazy conservative, I have no problem with hundreds of books that many conservatives would cringe at, for instance I LOVE HARRY POTTER, but this is not the same. It is extraordinary propaganda.
Atheist or not, one thing is for sure: all the characters in his book live in a theistic universe.
Pullman is the Creator and his characters are the created. This similitude is undeniable and real. And that is ultimately the irony of the whole thing.
And while we are at it can we just erase the nitwit "it's just fiction" comments from the likes of Nathan and others who will undoubtedly make the same "argument"?
It is for their own good that they not enter the debate advertising how woefully inept their understanding of literature is. Really. It just makes them look like doe-eyed drooling retards who get all their intellectual sustenance straight from the teat of the boob tube.
"I think it's appropriate to discriminate fiction from atheistic, Catholic Church hatin' propaganda, don't you think? You're an adult. You make your own choice about the drivel you read. Children, however, will typically read whats in front of them/what's bought for them/what's allowed into their CATHOLIC home ... "...my parents encouraged it." Case in point."
In bringing up how my parents encouraged their children to read as much as they could and to think on their own, what's your case in point?
Hey, Stubble Spark, you know who else banned books? Nazis. My parents never censored what books I read while I was growing up. They never really had to since I was in to historical fiction. But when I brought home books like To Kill a Mockingbird when I was in the sixth or seventh grade, they never said, "Oh, that's subject matter that you're not ready for yet." It really baffles me that people are so afraid of different ideas. Makes me wonder what today's youth will be goose-stepping to tomorrow. If children are so impressionable, maybe parents should impress upon them the Catholic faith. I've always been confident enough in my faith not to let some book or critic shake it. Others must not have the same confidence, and if we need to keep "dangerous" books out of the hands of children, then I think that's a hell of an indictment of parents' inability to teach their children in the Catholic faith. My parents never said, "This isn't something you should be reading or learning." Instead, they'd simply make sure to caution me to think carefully about what I'm reading. Perhaps my parents took a different approach in raising their children because they were educators, but they also knew how to pass along the strength of faith that they themselves possess. I'm proud to be a Catholic today and I'm proud to have a brother who's a priest. What other books should Catholics not read?
I agree with the last commentor; personally, i loved the entire trilogy. They were well written, and contain positive themes about friendship, love, and perseverence.
I understood very well that Pullman was about as wrong as its possible to be in his theology, but that didnt stop me from enjoying the books as a work of fiction. I noticed the anti-religious parts and said to myself, "well, thats interesting, but pretty blatantly wrong...lets see how the characters would handle a universe if this were true."
And i think thats the best part - Pullman's books really end up showing how meaningless life ends up being in his world view. And that is a pretty positive thing, once one grasps it.
Im not so stupid as to allow a work of fiction to change my faith, and i'm not so arrogant and self-absorbed as to think that I should tell others that they are.
Nathan: By Goodwin's law you lost your argument. Despite that let me say that nazis did also build highways. Applying your logic that should mean that...
Andrew: You have a firm faith? Good for you. When did you read those books? Were you 10-11 or 20? I recall st. Paul saying something about spiritual breastfeeding of those weak in faith and not poisoning them.
Just my 0.02€
Two responses to the it's-just-fiction reflex:
1. Since the Nazi card has been thrown already, let's turn it around: imagine a popular work of fiction in which the major element was that the Holocaust was a hoax. I think everyone would agree that the Jewish community as well as most would raise an enormous outcry and they would be right to do so.
2. If someone wrote a book depicting your mother as a whore, would you be satisfied with, "Hey, it's just fiction!"?
As far as the my-faith-is-strong argument, consider that many examinations of conscience ask if we read books, pamphlets, etc. with material contrary to Catholic faith or morals. It isn't a question of strength or weakness of faith, but the objective fact that deliberately allowing moral pollution into your mind is wrong.
Stefan, I don't know how invoking that the Nazis didn't like contrarian books made me lose my argument (although I recognize no one has advocated banning books). And I'm not certain what your point about the Nazis building highways is. You do know that Eisenhower created the interstate system in the United States after seeing how the Autobahn worked so well in Germany, right?
And I didn't need to invoke the Nazis. It's just an example that most immediately recognize. The American South was livid when Uncle Tom's Cabin was published. In the 1950s, people were outraged over the book Peyton Place. And even more recently, people had their problems with Harry Potter. So I don't have to go to Europe to find people who don't like books that make them uncomfortable.
Scott, I don't have a problem criticizing books. I've read more than my fair share that I didn't like. But the key is that I've read them and passed judgment afterwards. I'm not certain how many do that (people must take their cues from Bill O'Reilly). And I have never discouraged anyone from reading any book, and I never will. The great thing is that I've got the facts on my side. For every book that denies the Holocaust, there are five hundred that affirms it. For a book that's about my mother being a whore, I'll simply write one refuting the charge. For someone who says there is no God and the Catholic faith is bad, I've got plenty of firepower with the likes of Augustine and Aquinas that say otherwise.
Finally, the examination of conscience says not to ingest moral pollution, but I find it important to know what others are saying. You don't win a debate by simply keeping the opposing view from participating. You win by knowing their point of view and then deconstructing it point by point. If you or anyone else disagrees with that approach, that's fine. I think that there are multiple approaches to take in defending the faith. I just happen to believe that attempting to silence critics only gives them that much more credence to what they're trying to say.
Scott, I don't have a problem criticizing books. I've read more than my fair share that I didn't like. But the key is that I've read them and passed judgment afterwards.
So you can pick up Playboy, read it and only then pass judgement that it is pornography? C'mon.
And I have never discouraged anyone from reading any book, and I never will. The great thing is that I've got the facts on my side. For every book that denies the Holocaust, there are five hundred that affirms it. For a book that's about my mother being a whore, I'll simply write one refuting the charge. For someone who says there is no God and the Catholic faith is bad, I've got plenty of firepower with the likes of Augustine and Aquinas that say otherwise.
So Jews have no business being offended? Just go out and write refutations? C'mon.
Finally, the examination of conscience says not to ingest moral pollution, but I find it important to know what others are saying.
So the examinations are merely suggestions that only everyone else has to obey? Duly noted.
"immanent"
I think you meant "imminent"
"immanent" means something else.
"So you can pick up Playboy, read it and only then pass judgement that it is pornography? C'mon."
Are you really comparing a children's book to Playboy?
"So Jews have no business being offended? Just go out and write refutations? C'mon."
I never said they shouldn't be offended. But I would disagree with them if they said, "Don't read this book! You'll actually believe what they say!" I don't like people insulting my intelligence, so I try my best not to insult the intelligence of others. What are we so afraid of if people, including impressionable children, read these books? Are the teachings of the Church that weak that Catholics might have their minds changed by such books? I can't speak for anyone else, but that's not the case for me.
"So the examinations are merely suggestions that only everyone else has to obey? Duly noted."
Are you saying that you don't ever interact with somebody that has different beliefs than you have? I can only imagine what it's like to live inside a protective bubble. I can sit and debate with people who have different views because I like to learn how they justify their views. I don't simply say, "I'm not going to listen to you." I'm not going to apologize for wanting to know the views of others. I'm also not willing to let others think for me and make my decisions for me. I never thought I'd ever have to defend myself for having an open mind that seeks to learn as much as possible.
I whole-heartedly agree that these books are dangerous! Nothing that posits a universe outside that of the Catholic idea of things should EVER be read or allowed in any home -- especially one with children! I will not tolerate any of it in my home. The Greeks? Rubbish. All those legends, myths, whatnot -- entirely contrary to the true faith. Sure, we see them as "only fiction" these days, but children, certainly, do not know the difference. King Arthur with his magical Merlin? Pretends to have a Christian basis, but come on. Insidious. Thor and all his nordic buddies? Better to not even mention them. My son asked once about Thor -- I think he saw some sort of comic book -- and I could see how eager he was to believe in such a "God". All these stories, myths, tales -- old or new -- are anti-Catholic. By definition. Period. Full stop. End of discussion. The End.
Descarte: I think, therefore I am.
mickle: I don't think, therefore I rant.
Nathan: I like to read fiction, therefore I like to write it too.
Two questions for you, Nathan:
1. Do you have kids?
2. What atheistic, Magesterium-hating book did you read when you were 8, 10, 12?
Thanks,
Veronica
QUOTE FROM STEFAN:
Andrew: You have a firm faith? Good for you. When did you read those books? Were you 10-11 or 20? I recall st. Paul saying something about spiritual breastfeeding of those weak in faith and not poisoning them.
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I was 15. I don't see what that has to do with anything. Obviously, parents should judge whether their childen read certain books or not, but thats goes for ANY book, not just this one. I dont think Donahue's attempt to foster some massive protest and boycott will do anything positive.
What the Catholic community should be doing is using the books and movies as tools to strengthen faith. They should all read the books themselves, critically analyze them, and use them as tools to teach about morality, errors in theology, etc. Church groups should go to screenings, have book discussions, and welcome this as a chance to show the true nature of God.
I think the current policy makes us look like whining infants. We got upset when Jews whined about The Passion, and now we're whining about this just the same. Lets just embrace the oppurtunity to witness for God.
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QUOTE FROM SCOTT W
As far as the my-faith-is-strong argument, consider that many examinations of conscience ask if we read books, pamphlets, etc. with material contrary to Catholic faith or morals. It isn't a question of strength or weakness of faith, but the objective fact that deliberately allowing moral pollution into your mind is wrong.
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If its really that wrong to willingly let "moral pollution" into your mind, is it wrong to ever listen to the point of view of a Jew, Muslim, Mormon, etc. to whom you are speaking about Catholicism. Should we as Catholics tell them what we think and then put our fingers in our ears and ignore their answers? Thats not how intellectual (adult) conversations work.
Like i said, we need to fully understand these books, educate oursleves about them (read them!) and use them as a tool to show our True Faih. Again, right now we look like whining infants.
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ANOTHER GEM FROM SCOTT W:
So you can pick up Playboy, read it and only then pass judgement that it is pornography? C'mon.
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Thats quite possibly the worst argument I've ever heard. I dont quite think the two things are comparable, in their substance and delivery, or in their intent.
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MICKLE TRIES TO SOUND SMART:
All those legends, myths, whatnot -- entirely contrary to the true faith. Sure, we see them as "only fiction" these days, but children, certainly, do not know the difference.
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Wow... if you're talking about any of your kids, then they must be really stupid. I've never had a problem with a kid not understanding fiction and fact. Actually, children are a whole lot better than adults at reali
...zing when things are crap. Oh, and i work with kids full time over the summer, and part time as a tutor now that I'm in school. So i can say that confidently.
And hey... wait a minute... YOU know about all those things... And i'd be willing to bet that you knew about a lot of them as a child. And somehow you still ended up being a zelous Catholic. Apparently you were just smarter than every other child alive, huh?
Mike Petrik: I read fiction, therefore I think it's reality.
Veronica, no, I don't have children. So what? I read a lot of Greek mythology when I was a kid. I don't believe in multiple gods today. But I can converse with you on the subject. I also read Huckleberry Finn in fourth grade. I really liked it. I thought it was a neat adventure story, and even though Huck Finn was a bit of a troublemaker, I didn't follow suit and get in trouble with my teachers or parents. I know that I didn't know what the hell the Magisterium was when I had yet to enter junior high. Now I've never read these books (have you??) to know if I would've made the connection between this "Magisterium" and the Catholic Church, but I do know plenty of kids at my parish's Catholic school who read Harry Potter, and they haven't participated in witchcraft three years after the fact. At least not that I know of. I'm hard-pressed to think that these books will instill a hatred for the Catholic Church in our youth. And if it does, I think that reflects poorly on the parents who don't know how to pass on their faith.
The bottom line is I'm not afraid of children reading books. If anyone else is threatened by books, well, I feel sorry for them. I was never aware that the CDF so many of work for compiled a list of books that Catholics shouldn't read. If someone would care to share that with me, I'd appreciate it.
Nathan,
The fiction you wrote was that StubbleSpark was in any way even suggesting a banning of a book.
Now I think fiction is reality because...? Have at it, champ.
Plainly, the reality is that that last post was mine.
I don't see much of a difference between banning books, which I stated that no one actually had advocated, and keeping children or whomever from reading them because, gasp, the message isn't approved by the Catholic Church. Kids these days are going to miss out on a lot of good literature. As Andrew correctly points out, many of you aren't giving a child's intelligence very much credit these days.
Andrew, on last post:
1. "Donahue's attempts and massive protests" is witnessing. We're already using the books and movies as tools to strengthen the faith. Are you going to tell him not to witness? You're going to tell him to stop defending the Church and the Church's Authority? But you're not going to tell a parent to stop and think before buying these books for their children and showing them the movie?
2. Don't need to read every bit of trash to witness for God. "My books are about killing God" http://www.smh.com.au/articles/
2...1125644900.html After reading this, you would STILL read the book to "understand"?? No one needs perverse literature to "show the true nature of God."
2. Who cares what people think about the Catholic community (whiny infants)? What saint was every concerned about human respect? I worry about offending God. He can't be pleased with anyone wasting their time reading idle, useless trash. Never have I heard of the saints bothering with persuing scandal and trash as an opportunity to glorify God.
3. Saying "no" to material that attempts to KILL GOD in the minds of children is not the same as turning away from a Jew, Muslim, etc. In fact, no one's saying NOT to read the Quran or Torah ... (any pro-Pulman ppl who were up in arms when JP2 kissed the Quran? How can you be against for one book and against the other?) This isn't about ecumenism, although Pulman's books would be an excellent tool to wipe the minds of your children so that when they DO approach a muslim or jew, it'd be easier to jump ship.
3. "We need to fully understand these books, educate oursleves about them (read them!)" ????
"My books are about killing God" http://www.smh.com.au/articles/
2...1125644900.html
Says Mary Malone, a character: "The Christian religion is a very powerful and convincing mistake, that's all."
"If there is a God, then he deserves to be put down and rebelled against."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/...29/
bopull27.xml
Psalm 14:1 “The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God.’ They are corrupt, their deeds are vile"
I've never heard any of any Catholic trying to "understand" Satan, how he felt, what his logic was when he defected.
4. Don't read lies.
From The Catechism, 2470 The disciple of Christ consents to "LIVE IN THE TRUTH," that is, in the simplicity of a life in conformity with the Lord's example, abiding in his truth. "If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth."
Nathan, if you're not a parent, then you're not familiar with the formation of a childs conscience. You can't count your own growing up as "experience." I, for one, will give children's intelligence a lot of creedence...which is why you don't encourage / allow them to read these books.
"I know that I didn't know what the hell the Magisterium was when I had yet to enter junior high." Exactly! So, most kids are going to get their first dose of the Magesterium via Pullman's viewpoint?? Look, the Bible explicitly says that not everyone was meant to teach / preach, which means that some of us weren't meant to become priests to lead a flock. When you become a parent, sure, your responsibility is kicked up a notch and you have other souls to take care of, but you know there are going to be parents that are deficient or lack the proper teaching skills -- especially when you know for fact that there are so many Catholics out there are so poorly catechised.
Why would anyone want to "get them started" by having them discuss theology by having their kids read this stinkin' triology?
Tell you what. YOU get your neice / little Catholic friend, YOU get him to sit on your couch every night, YOU allow him to read aloud, YOU interrupt by bringing out the Catechism and Bible to illustrate the error in these books. Let's see how long you last.
As a matter of fact, have you ever taught Sunday school? Ever served on the Parish Council, spent time at a round table to pick and supervise catechetical lit for kids?? Have you ever LOOKED at the materials for Sunday school? Kids are taught at a snails pace FOR A REASON -- kids aren't allowed to receive the sacraments until certain ages FOR A REASON. The Church understands the formation of children: it's slow and methodical.
Compare this to the BS you'll be throwing their way when you want to use Pullman's trash as a catechetical tool. That's for you and me, which is fine. I don't have a problem looking at trash, studying smut, because, you know what? I have children -- you're right -- we HAVE to know what's out there to counter, to explain, to illustrate. But I won't persue something 1.) when I know it's pointless and evil and explicitly against God (the guy wants to KILL GOD..don't know what an atheist stands for? then visit atheist.org) 2.) my kid isn't going to read this, and 3.) there is SOO much lit out there, it's ridiculous.
In fact, if you go to he kids section -- stay there for 3 hours, read the first chapters of several books and I GUARANTEE you will chucking many, many books aside thinking, "people can't write."
If you can make a value judgement on the quality of someone's writing and decide not to read it, why can't you do it for a book that counters your conscience and soul?
P.S. That answer to my second question, "What atheistic, Magesterium-hating book did you read when you were 8, 10, 12?" -- that you read about mythology. Well, that's history. There's a thread running from there to today's democracy, but that's beside the point.
NO ONE can name any childhood book whose author was as EXPLICITY anti-God as Mr. KILL-GOD-Pullman. So, no, you can't use the "I turned out okay" argument.
Nor can you use the "Harry-Potter-Readin' " parish kids as examples, either, because you don't know them, don't talk intimately with them, don't know what they're experimenting with, what they're thinking, what they're rebelling against in their souls.
These are formative years where they're forming the identity they'll be taking into adulthood -- so, not having displeasure or a queer feeling about Harry Potter or for the The Golden Crap-pus, that just opens up the door for permissiveness and being "okay" with everything. "Have an open mind" is the young person's mantra, and the Catholic Church is the one thing that can represent the ultimate unyielding authority that they'll shy away from because of "too many rules."
The creation of cafeteria catholics. They'd rather read creative, "wings and wands" literature that intrigues them over their Catechism.
P.S.S. (Last one, I promise).
Pullman's trash isn't comparable to Huck Finn or Mockingbird. Porn was the only true comparison, I think -- but regarding other "banned" books -- I think lit that illustrates human suffering and social justice without countering precepts of the Church. That's okay. It's part of the American culture we're living in. THOSE are books that you can use as tools to illustrate Catholic belief, Catholic faith.
Veronica: I agree with every single thing you say. And just to add: there is no one, NO ONE, who has the interests of children more at heart than the leaders of the Catholic Church. When it comes to protecting kids from seducers like this Pulman creep, they are the best. Number One! I say: if your kid wants to read this trash put him/her in a room alone with your local Priest for an hour or so -- they'll see the light!
Keep up your guard Veronica! Defend against the true demons!
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