AmericanPapist Comments
Just because they might be eating and drinking their own condemnation is not a sufficient reason to risk hurting their feelings. Or for a bishop to actually bish.
(Picks up screwdriver to pry tongue out of cheek)
These "Catholic" politicians have calculated that public rebukes from their Bishops are less politically costly than running afoul of the pro-abort forces in their own party.
From the results in 2008, it appears that their political calculations are correct . . .
Could it be that these politicians are more concerned about political power than they are about the state of their own souls?
. . . golly, that's never happened before, has it?
I get that many of the laity don't understand the purpose of denying someone communion or excommunicating them. But how do the bishops not know? Isn't their whole purpose not to alienate people or to politicize the Eucharist but to "change [people's] hearts and minds" as Bishop Malooly wants to do.
I wrote Bishop Malooly(c/o diocese web page) about how disappointed I was with his decision. No response. Also I wote to Sen. Pelosi (her web site) to remind her the Bishop was still waiting for her response. None from her either.
I guess these two are "cultural" catholics, but I wish they would stop being referred to as "Catholic" - its a scandal to the rest of the world. But then again, for those who know, it is really sad to see these two not have an informed conscience. Imagine what will happen once they "get it" !
I'm starting to suspect that it's okay to be pro-abortion and Catholic. If the bishops are silent...They must consent.
I guess their attitude is, "if the pope won't change the teaching than we will!"
We are at a juncture similar to a mid-diet point. The first few days are full of dedication and resolve. But boy that double-chocolate cake looks good. Maybe I'll just order fries instead of a salad. Maybe I'll just hit my clock radio and not drag out of bed to exercise. So Biden still receives Communion. Pelosi still hasn't met with her Archbishop. No doubt using oh but we've been just so busy after the election and helping the President Elect and so on and so forth. As bill912 notes, scroll up and see, time for these bishops to bish.
Watch, Biden will keep eye-poking the bishops until they do, on a national level, take action against him. Instead of playing it smart, and avoiding certain situations, the Gaffmaster's just gonna go ahead and provoke it. Now that he doesn't have real job anymore.
I don't know enough about Church history, so maybe someone who does can answer this. When and where have other Bishops denied communion or excommunicated Catholic politicians? I would be curious to know the other circumstances surrounding those decisions. Is it usually a Bishop who makes those decisions or does it have to be taken all the way to Rome?
I knew I should have paid more attention in Church History class back in high school... :(
The Bishops are failing to teach because they are failing to discipline. It seems that the hippy juice has not worn out completely from the Bishop blood stream. I eagerly await for the day that it does.
What I struggle with is that I have not heard a Priest/Bishop whomever talk to the laity about not receiving communion if they are not in a state of grace. I go to a parish with over 3,000 people and I never see anyone denying themselves communion. Meanwhile, maybe 10-20 people show up for confession on the weekends. Hmm...are we a parish of nothing but Saints? No divorces/remarriage with out annulment? No one committing adultery, stealing, watching pornography..? Please. I am not denying the fact that Biden/Pelosi should be denied communion, but why target just them? Is it because it makes good press?
I must admit that the unwillingness of Bishops to excommunicate Catholic politicians who support pro-abortion legislation, policies, etc, has vexed me for quite some time.
It seems clear that canonically, anyone who participates directly or indirectly (through the shaping of laws or policies) in the procurement of abortions is automatically excommunicated from the Church.
This obviously would seem to include lawmakers who craft and support abortion policies. Bishop Martino noted that we could take measures against catholics who supported slavery in times past, so why would it be all that much different now?
I think a key consideration is circumstance. The fact that so many people apparently think like Biden and Pelosi, the problem would be enforcement- what would happen if the bishops executed Joe Biden and he shows up for Mass the following Sunday?
Would he be permitted to enter the Church? Would the local priest deny him holy communion? What if the local parish priest refuses to cooperate with the Bishop? What if some Bishops refuse to cooperate with this? What kind of scandal would that cause to the faithful?
Would the people rise up and rally behind him and set themselves at odds with the Bishop?
Would this then lead to outright schism?
It is always necessary to stop and consider the consequences of imposing sanctions, even when they are justified. Some may argue that schism is already present in the American Church and that might be true, but it seems that this might be what the Bishops are trying to avoid- outright schism and defiance. Are the bishops justified in allowing this situation to develop in the hopes of avoiding deeper scandal and division?
What I'm wondering though is whether it is possible to avoid this any longer?
Neil: because their grave sin is public and obstinate. Canon 915.
Paul, thanks. Good point.
It is not and that is the point. Let us not misunderstand the action, excommunication by its very nature is serve to preserve the person not the Church. It is he who takes communion whitout taking in to account his state that brings judgement on him or her self.
In other words forget the political aspect because it is not relevant, I am sure that in Roman times Christians not participating in pagan holidays was also a political issue.
The fact is these Bishops need to stop worrying less about scandals and concern them selves with the countless souls that are in danger because of their failure to teach the Truth.
It seems that the hippy juice has not worn out completely from the Bishop blood stream.
The recent election of Zevala over Finn for USCCB Communications seems to indicate that as well.
If I read Dr. Peter's correctly, he's saying that we should let Biden do the work for us as he seems to do it best. He's already misrepresented Church teaching twice, with public reprimands from several bishops in between, and he has received Communion after receiving public pastoral reprimands from certain other bishops. Dr. Peter's is right. This guy is not going to stop "eye-poking". Eventually something will have to be done, and when it is it will have to be consistent and across the board.
So, let Biden keep disrupting the class. Eventually, the whole class will have to face detention (well, that's what should happen, anyway).
I would have to look up the specifics, but I believe the bishop of New Orleans had excommunicated Catholic politicians who refused to desegregate the public schools there.
I think excommunication is going to have to be used to prevent the passage of FOCA (or at least attempt to prevent its passage).
I understand the lost sheep principle, i.e., leaving the 99 in pursuit of the one lost sheep. In this case, we're talking about wolves among the sheep, tares among the wheat. Indeed, the Lord will sift out the bad (i.e., those who pretend to be faithful) from the good in His time. Nevertheless, the Lord gives us the Holy Spirit to help us discern right from wrong, informing reason and giving us the standards by which we can measure discipleship. We should employ that reason to determine who is against us and who is for us. Concerning politicians and other public officials (e.g., errant priests), the aforementioned determination is really a no brainer. Any pro-abortion politician, for example, is clearly not a disciple of the Lord. What true disciple would defend or promote legislation that allows killing innocent children?
If we determine that someone is against us, then we must confront our brother (and/or sister) and call them to obedience. If they repeatedly refuse to amend their ways, well then we don't have to wait for the Lord's return to take action that He Himself has empowered our shepherds to do in His Name (Remember our Lord's rebuke of Peter? Pretty severe - and yet Peter, repentant and restored by Christ, is the one to whom Jesus gave the keys to the Kingdom! Jesus did not hesitate to call Peter to live up to his dignity). Scripture records how the Apostles dealt with aberrant teaching and practices; the Apostle's responses were definitive, surgical. Our bishops have the authority of the Apostles. They can draw on the graces proper to their office to weed out those who, showing no sign of repentance, should be removed so they do not spread their lethal behavior to the rest of the Body. A good surgeon knows how to take action against a malignant growth. The longer the bishops wait or expect the disease to go into remission without treatment, the faster and farther the tumor will spread. Once the health of the body gets seriously compromised, there is a point after which there will be no recovery.
If a person with a deadly sexually transmitted disease continued to engage in sexual activity, any rational person would say that something had to be done to restrain that individual from putting other people at risk. In fact, allowing that individual to remain at large would endanger the lives of others. Well, here we have politicians with a spiritually transmitted disease. By allowing them to fraternize with the faithful, we are doing nothing to help them curb their serious errant behavior and we, by our sin of omission, are putting people's souls at risk.
I wrote Cardinal Maida that the politicians should have to go to Canossa on their knees before they receive ANY sacraments!
Pray to St. Martin of Porres to make the good bishops feel a tiny part of the pains felt by just one day aborted babies, in order to have the spine of “talk the talk and WALK THE WALK”.
What walk?
To bomb the murderers nest (USA Congress), via PUBLIC excommunication of direct-formal cooperators of abortion, as Sen. Biden & Pelosi who are scandalizing the entire world bearing the titles “Catholic VP & Speaker of the most powerful country in the planet”.
Is not enough scandal?
More to the point: Biden publicly snubbed his bishop kind invitation to discuss in private the issue (1st step to be excommunicated).
So? Walk step 2: Warn him publicly: “If you don’t recant publicly in five days notice…”
Then walk to step 3:
PUBLIC EXCOMMUNICATION
USCCB, TAKE RESPONSIBILITY!!!!!!!
Where's Doug Kmiec when you need him? ;-)
Lord have mercy on us. Lord have mercy.
The problem is this. Once upon a time, people probably paid attention to their excommunication. But nowadays?!?!
Can you see Biden or Pelosi, actually abiding by the excommunication? More likely, they'd flip the bird at the bishop (perhaps even literally!) and receive the Blessed Sacrament anyway.
Or worse, cry "martyr" and get the MSM behind them. u_u
Enforcing Canon 915 is not an "excommunication."
Although, we might well be at that point where excommunications will need to be pronounced.
Remember, Our Blessed Lord spoke to the Scribes and the Pharisees about who would and wouldn't inherit the Kingdom: in their anger they did quite a bit more than offer the King of Glory an obscene gesture.
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Blessed Sacrament of the Altar!
May Our Lord be glorified in the conversion of all sinners, including those "manifest grave" ones.
Even if she sits a down with Niederauer, what will it accomplish? Does she not know she is in the wrong?
Why doesn't he make an ultimatum.
it is obvious to the world where she stands. I know Niederauer is in a tough diocese but can a bishop be so naive? The only one's who cheer on his "tolerance" are the dissenters who spit on Church teaching!
To NB: Check Archbishop Rummel of New Orleans on wikipedia. He excommunicated prominent Catholics of his diocese who actively opposed his plans to end institutional racism by integrating his parochial schools.
"what would happen if the bishops executed Joe Biden and he shows up for Mass the following Sunday?"
Gadfly, I have to admit, I believe you inadvertently gave me the only huge laugh I have had today...on so many levels, thank you. While I continue to pray for politicians and wish them no harm (especially given the state of their souls) The possible answers to this question will keep me in good cheer for at least a few days!
An article in the San Francisco Chronicle today says that Pelosi believes that the reason that Prop 8 didn't pass (Yes on 8 defined marriage between a man and a woman)was because the people of California didn't understand what they were voting for. This woman is unreal.
Both Bishop Malooly AND Sen. Biden are attempting to change hearts and minds. The difference is that Biden's gospel of doing whatever he wishes and receiving communion is changing more hearts and minds than Bishop Malooly's silence (refer to the Nov. 4 election results for empirical evidence). The inescapable truth of the matter is that this issue is being forced upon us by liberals in the Catholic church who place their politics ahead of their faith. If our Bishops and Archbishops do not re-establish themselves as the pillar and bulwark of truth, their authority will continue to be usurped by the Joe Bidens and Nancy Pelosis of the world to the point where the term "Catholic" no longer has any clear meaning.
Janet,
Or worse, cry "martyr" and get the MSM behind them.
I think you're right. It seems that there is a matter of case building against the Catholic Church in America. Biden especially appears to be deliberately pushing buttons, all while it appears that future legislation will affect the Church negatively and limit the religious freedom of Catholics. I refuse to believe that Biden is a dummy. He's been in the system for too long. He knows how to follow directions. There is something going on here. Eventually, he'll have to be punished for his perpetual public scandal. When he does the same penalties will have to be consistent and across the board, lest the bishops appear to be unfairly picking one one Catholic (the VP, no less).
None of these Catholic politicos seem to give a damn about their religion, nor do they even recognize that it is God they receive in the Eucharist. I wonder what the backlash will be against the Church (which is already making enemies of the State, and rapidly I might add).
I am an extraordinary minister, I will refuse to give anybody who openly has committed the crime of abortion either by action or inaction. Even if my pastor or bishop has ordered me.
"what would happen if the bishops executed Joe Biden and he shows up for Mass the following Sunday"
An interesting oops there, gadfly...Would Biden show up like the Ghost of Christmas past? Or Marley? Which one showed up in chains?
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