AmericanPapist Comments
I'll admit the Archbishop's words seem baffling and vague
unless one has had the misfortune of experiencing the RC's peculiar brand of charity (false innuendo with those who disagree) and discretion (what they call their 'misleading but legally accurate' kind of deception.)
There is never a shortage of people willing to criticize the LC/RC, and as Amy points out, its a great way to swell the com-box.
I did note that O'brien was greeted in his new Diocese with complaints about the LC,(according to his first statement) and has moved quickly and surely to put the matter to rest. I am sure the LC will respond appropriately, as indicated already by their initial response. What's the big deal, exactly?
Although not a member, my children have been to camps, I have been to a retreat, and we have made a lot of use of their abundant resources in education , publishing, and family apostolates. We have never been 'frightened' or made unconfortable, or found any unfaithfulness. Maybe we were lucky?
Every priest, seminarian or RC member we've met has been sincere, and self-giving.
I wonder, of those who are suspicious of 'retreats' etc.. how many send their kids on hockey trips with coaches, for example. Today in North America, many Catholic families would be more comfortable with their 15 yr. old dating, than going on retreat.
That is not my perspective, and I have difficulty understanding it. Anyone who encourages my (8) kids to commit to a fervent spiritual life, and maintain a spiritual life, and keep themselves CHrist centered, is doing me a favour - and my kids!
One day, hopefully not too soon, I will have to answer for whatever efforts I have made to bring my kids to Heaven's door. I have a lot to answer for. The LC/RC have lightened my burden with their help.
Lwestin, just wait a couple of years. You will see what we are talking about. It happens with every RC member or sympathizer. It just takes a little time.
Glenn,
My head is not in the sand. My oldest is married with children, and if 15 years isn't long enough time to 'see the real thing', then I'm a lucky person.
Lwestin said: "Anyone who encourages my (8) kids to commit to a fervent spiritual life, and maintain a spiritual life, and keep themselves Christ centered, is doing me a favour - and my kids!"
I used to whole-heartedly agree, as did even those exLC's who once gave their lives to Christ through the Legion. But the number of stories of spiritual manipulation ("If you walk away from this vocation, the souls who depended on you will go to hell" and "The very fact that you came on this retreat indicates God wants you in this Movement") leave the children confused, anxious and often clinically depressed. That's why the private norms tell them how to present themselves, including mandatory smile. ("Your face is not your own. It belongs to others...")
Is it possible that orthodoxy is not always presented in a healthy way? Can we trust the Archbishop, given the material he's seen the the experiences he's had? Lock-step conformity isn't Catholicism -- true faith requires freedom.
Archbishop O'brien is doing his duty. I expect that the LC will continue to respond appropriately.
Is it possible that not everyone is well-suited to the same spirituality?
I'm sorry, but the examples presented as 'horrific' etc, do not stir me. I think that there is a lot of room for differnce in the Catholic Church. As you say, not everyone must conform to the same approach. Including, whether the LC must conform to yours. They must be obedient and conform to the changes that the Holy Father demands for the good of their order and those in it. They are not obliged to meet the 'consensus' opinion of North Americans, who are not used to hardship or sacrifice - or really obedience. (I'm speaking as a society, generally.) I do really think there is plenty of example in the lives of the Saints, of rigid discipline and a 'setting oneself apart' during formation .
Certainly not for everyone - but also not without merit, or obviously, results!
Learning the background (persecution)of the founding of LC, might go a ways in understanding what may have seemed necessary 'caution' at the time. Looking at how society is shaping up, the coddling, ground-giving, and accomodating has not served us well. We may find that we have few resources within us to withstand the growing persecution, and BE as Cardinal Ratzinger predicted, the 'faithful remnant'.
Just wait a couple of years.
I can understand where Archbishop O'Brien is doing....the LCs are on his 'turf'.
I've been a longtime supporter of the Legion. Two years ago I had a LC priest and seminarian visit me at my house, and they were wonderful and kind gentlemen. I've been to two Profession Masses in Cheshire, CT (1999 and 2006), and it was amazing to see the large crowds of Legionaries and their families.
I've never been on a retreat with them-don't have the time OR the money to do that. Some years ago I did have some phone contact with Regnum Christi. When I was told that members go out 'on mission', I said, "Uh-thanks but no thanks..." Not for me...I'm not the 'organizing type'....
I like your comments, lwestin....
I've been thinking about this.
A couple of things have popped into my mind.
One, Abp. O'Brian stated that the LCs got popular, because the diocesan priests weren't giving straight answers, or were giving answers that were hetrodox, while the LCs gave straight, orthodox answers.
Two, these same diocesan priests who couldn't give straight answers applauded when they learned that the LCs were in trouble.
Doesn't it seem, that hetrodox priests are happy that a congregation that is devoted to orthodox Catholicism might be out of the picture? That they'd have much less competition?
And, doesn't scripture talk about opposition to people who actually proclainm the gosple?
Just thinkin'--this makes me more in favour of the LCs.
I.R. I covered that point exactly here:
http://www.life-after-rc.com/200...wered-
post.html
Lwestin: please know that it's not about prayer, sacrifice, hair shirts or privation. All of those have their place and are completely Catholic. The Archbishop has talked about the lack of transparency.
What folks refuse to piece together is why the Legion is dodgy about its activities, why it sued Regain for simply making the LC constitution available, why members cannot admit to the possibility that the founder was less than perfect, and what is the nature of its "Kingdom."
Most assume the Kingdom is one with that of Christ, but much evidence has been presented that suggests otherwise. I am NOT disputing the outward display of orthodoxy, but the inward machinations that are troubling even the best of bishops.
Finally, you say "it's not for everyone." Knowing about the sacrifice and dedicated life required, we STILL joined enthusiastically. It wasn't the privation that put us off, but the duplicity.
sorry, that is not my experience of them, over 15 yrs.
It seems to me that the Pope has dealt with those concerns, as the Archbishop has - by making necessary corrections - publicly.
I fail to see the lack of transparancy in recent developments, and the LC/RC have certainly added greatly to the discussion of Catholic education (not to mention vast efforts and resources) in America, and to the thrust for a renewal of faithfulness and truth in media.
I'm not negating anyone's personal experiences. I can't account for the personality issues on either side, not knowing the individuals. I simply can't agree that those problems are endemic currently. That is not my experience, or the face of the LC/RC public work.
Results would tend to speak for themselves (good fruit).
IR
That is what the ABishop tell us that the RC members SAID. Not what was the real situation. Please read carefully while you think.
and I will try to comment in proper English!
IR said, "I'm not negating anyone's personal experiences."
What if those experiences included molestation -- even up to recent years? Does that have any bearing on the integrity of the methodology?
giselle- was that your experience? with LC/RC, or just something you do not have actual knowledge of, and are just throwing out there. See, I don't negate your experience, but I also don't know what that has been, really. I must make my own judgement, as described above.
lwestin,
My experience is that the RC's are wonderful, until you ask questions or disagree. Then the claws come out. I prayed for a more Catholic-friendly alternative to the GS in summer 2005. Soon, ladies from the parish began promoting Challenge. They didn't ever mention that Challenge is affiliated with Regnum Christi. I wouldn't have known except that another parishioner suggested I look into their parent oprganization. I heard from people who had been involved with Regnum Christi in various ways, and I read what was posted on both www.regainnetwork.org, and www. legionaryfacts.org .
I found out that the adults who would be running the meetings hadn't been to VIRTUS so they weren't diocesan approved. This in itself wasn't the problem. It was that I was startled about it, and asked more. "We don't have to", I was told snidely, and then the lovely RC ladies twisted this into a rumor that I thought they were child molesters. Also, they were recruiting in the parish school without being honest that they were affiliated with Regnum Christi, and they weren't forthright about their lack of diocesan approval (they met in a private home at first). Since then, they have also promoted K4J, LTP, and Sportsleader without acknowledging their affiliation to LC/RC. You are within your rights to allow your children to be involved, but parents have a right to know which groups their children are getting involved with so they can make informed decisions. You can't deny that there is sufficient reason for a parent to decide that LC/RC isn't worth the risk.
I also heard a second-degree, IPS instructor try to get me to believe that our former pastor had behaved improperly with the choir directress. (he had forbidden the RC's from operating at the parish.) So, my experiences fit well with what the good archbishop describes, and I wouldn't dream of letting any of my (8 also!) children get involved with any LC/RC apostolate.
I doubt Giselle was personally molested by an LC priest; so far, all the LC child-molesting cases have been male-male. (with the possible exception of last year's case at the Mano Amiga schools. I think I read that one or more victims was female?). I think we're all past the "victims are lying stage" of the sexual abuse crisis the Catholic Church has endured, though. I hope you aren't going to suggest that the victims weren't truthful; I can tell you that the Vatican gave Fr Maciel the same punishment* that my childhood pastor received, and the case against Maciel is much stronger than the case against my childhood pastor (Arthur Sego) who only had one woman with a recovered memory come forward publicly. I believe Jose Barba, Juan Vaca, and the other men who have come forward against Maciel, and I believe my friend, whose son was abused at Center Harbor in the 1990's. Keep in mind that any confidence in Maciel's innocence (or S. Maciel, P. Walsh, G Izquierdo, F Cutanda, etc) is a lack of c
confidence in the victims' honesty. I can tell you that the most difficult thing by far, about coming forward about a priest's abuse, is the fear that we won't be believed. So, if Maciel was guilty, his supporters who imply or state that the victims are lying, are being very cruel to Maciel's victims.
*Ed has previously stated that when elderly priests (like Maciel or Sego, et al) are invited to a private life of prayer and penance in lieu of a canonical trial, this is not considered a punishment. I didn't understand his explanation, even when Ed invited me to reread it, but I hope they considered themselves punished so that they repented before they died. But the word 'punishment' is just a housewife's term, not a canon lawyer's.
1) what does any of this have to do with Absp O'Brien.
2)I have personally seen, unrelated to LC/RC how people can be very devoted to destroying something over personality conflicts (as above), using every rumour they have ever heard.
3) although I have personally participated with virtus, I believe their program is wrong-headed, not to mention virtually useless. A lot of money and time spent to be able to say you've 'done something'. Now, you see, since I've been 'unsupportive' and blunt, one might decide there was something 'not right' about me...
4)I am satisfied with the Vaticans handling of the serious allegations, and do not feel qualified (or inclined) to 'go after' the order on behalf of whatever I may have heard about it. I do not 'get' why anyone else would feel themselves so well informed, after listening to rumour and reading the internet... unless they had a willingness to be upset and 'go after' somebody.
5) you obviously are free to spread as much inuendo etc.. as you please about anyone. in a way, an Order is fair game, and its just part of the suffering that comes with seeking God. In my experience, the RC/LC have this perspective. I haven't had any negative reactions from anyone, but then again, I haven't been looking for demons under prayebooks. I am also not easily offended by curt replies. Personalities and 'feelings' are not as important as some may think.... my philosophy, which all are free to reject. I am free to reject the continual stream of unsupported 'suggestions' as irrelevant, and rely on the Vatican's support of the Order, and my own personal experiences. For someone to take so much effort to 'sway' my (unimportant) confidence shows determination and perseverence in what I consider an unworthy cause. Find some good works to do. Picket an abortuary . Visit the sick. Pray and be HAPPY.
lwestin,
2)I'm glad to hear you disapprove of the local RC's spreading of rumors. I've been careful not to respond in kind.
3) As I stated, VIRTUS attendance itself wasn't the point! I'm sure you're aware that it's necessary for working with diocesan youth, and a) They didn't go and were therefore not cooperating with the bishop's directives, and b)not being forthright so that parents were aware that this was not a diocesan-approved group. 1) This is the exactly what Archbishop O'Brien was talking about in his letters!
4) The part about sexual abuse was answering your question to Giselle. I am also satisfied with the Vatican's handling of Fr. Maciel, as it was the exact same way Msgr Sego's case was handled. At the time, nothing would have been enough, of course, but you get what you get.
5)Don't worry about my feelings! I'd been warned ahead of time that the RC ladies would spread false innuendo about me, and I'd seen it firsthand with their rumors about the previous pastor, so I recognized it immediately as the LC/RC MO. And yes, the RC ladies were free to spread innuendo about me, as you noted, and yes, I'm pleased to suffer for my faith. That's very christian of you to note the works I do; are you another one of the regulars at the bishop's monthly Respect Life Masses, follwed by a Rosary at an abortion clinic? Remember: no Mass in July! And I'm pleased to hear of your prayers for my dear sick one; I returned safely.
I have yet to hear anything credible that has to do with the order itself, that hasn't been addressed already by authority.
A very interesting perspective on minor seminaries, that might be helpful to some of the parents, was expressed by Cardinal Oullette following the Eucharistic Conference in Quebec. They are re-opening their minor seminary, for 12 year olds.
Don't send your kid there , if you're not willing to have him come home at Christmas saying he wants to be a priest. That is the point, afterall!
(reported on NCR *warning* LC media!!)
"I have yet to hear anything credible that has to do with the order itself, that hasn't been addressed already by authority."
Hope this means you aren't second-guessing Archbishop O'Brien, which was the whole topic, after all. God bless.
Obviously you haven't actually read this thread.
How rude, but that's what I expected from an RC type. Did you know that the LC/RC charism is "charity"?!
Jeanette,
You addressed me without having read the thread. That makes me uncharitable?
Not RC , by the way, which you would know, had you read it.
This kind of pettiness is not CHristian, and does not lend credibility to 'complaints'.
Enough time wasted on this!
While charitable readers exchange insults, are you going to give us an opinion in a new post, A. Papist? I think you may have had some time now to catch up on such riviting reading...
Papa BXVI said it best in one of his homilies while on his USA visit-no movement/community is perfect. Remember Judas Iscariot? How about St Peter? We are works in progress. Pray that we'll all make it to Heaven, RC/LC members or not.
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