There's some metajudo going on in this post. It's almost like you're pre-emptively saying "Indefensibly nasty? You bet I am: Queen Indefensible of Nasty Mountain and don't you forget it."
And I'm quite at a loss for how to reply to that.
(And Queen Indefensible of Nasty Mountain would be a good subtitle for a blog, now that I think about it.)
I confess, I'm stumped on this post myself. You say you're wrong to use certain words in certain ways, but that it is effective and fun when you do, but you shouldn't, and you can't defend it... sorry, but huh?
The whole issue of reclamation is a muddle I prefer to avoid. I try not to use racist or sexist words, and fail sometimes in the effort. I have a vocabulary sufficiently advanced to simultaneously completely insult and thoroughly confuse the average American (which I'm sure Sarah will note is not precisely on the level of climbing Everest, but still).
Anyway, to find a point in this ramble... Sis, what exactly are you saying about the tendency to use feminine terms as insults? And why are they more inherently offensive than, for instance, dickless, pencil-dick, limp dick, no balls, and the like?
You say you're wrong to use certain words in certain ways, but that it is effective and fun when you do, but you shouldn't, and you can't defend it... sorry, but huh?
I don't know what's so hard to understand about that. Powerful words used to demean other people are useful and potent because they're demeaning--which makes them indefensible, in spite of the fact that they can be attractive when you're frustrated or pissed off.
I'm saying I understand the desire to use ugly words to insult, but that doesn't mean I condone their use. Including my own use of them.
I'm with nightshift66 on this; I don't know if insults that depict female body parts are more offensive than male ones.
Did I miss something?
Okay, Sis, you replied while I was trying to compose my comment. Cleared it up for me, I think.
Thanks.
I don't know if insults that depict female body parts are more offensive than male ones.
Calling someone a dick isn't the same as calling someone a cunt. Women are rarely called dicks or cocks or whatever, and when they are, the meaning of the insult doesn't change; whether directed at a man or a woman, it means you're being rude, stupid, etc., whereas when a woman is called a cunt, it means she's nasty, but when a man is called a cunt, it means he's weak. (At least in American usage.) All that said, that's not really the point of this post, and calling someone a dick still isn't especially nice, so a good rule of thumb is just call everyone an asshole, because we've all got them. 
I dunno. Having read too much Poppy Z Brite at one stage, I tend to regard "whore" as quite easily gender-neutral.
Indeed, it has a specific and rich meaning which makes it useful ("one who takes money to prostitute oneself") which "cunt" doesn't ("a dirty repulsive thing of little value").
I tend to regard "whore" as quite easily gender-neutral
So do I, which is why I have no problem with calling someone a corporate whore, etc. It was the detailed elaboration on that concept that put Pachacutec's post over the edge, IMO, combined with other bits of nastiness like saying Tauscher wasn't being called a whore based on her sexual promiscuity, because "See photo." In other words, not just a whore, but an ugly whore.
I don't know if insults that depict female body parts are more offensive than male ones.
I'd say the difference between using terms for male and female body parts is that their general usage maintains the sexual stereotype. If a guy calls another guy a cunt or a whore, well them's fighting words. Call a guy a prick or pimp and he's just as likely to smile and say Damn Straight.
Where I grew up in Chicago, the worst insult between guys was "woman." That says it all.
love the word. love it. I have succumbed myself and felt like a shit. But I love the word.
I've kind of become desensitized to the word, but I still generally try not to use it (unless I'm calling Shakes Queen Cunt of Fuck Mountain )when I'm posting. Why? Because people get so caught up in the *word,* that they usually miss the point of my post. And if people aren't reading your post and understanding what you're saying, what's the point of blogging?
I used to use this word for Malkin as an insult, a lot. Like Shakes, I can't defend it. But man, I really *felt* it.
I wondered what your take would be on this whole thing, Sis.
I think you got it right. People need to be aware of how their words will be interpreted, whether or not they agree with the interpretation. If you call someone a cunt, you need to know that some people will find it sexist and be offended and angry. If your desire to really insult Laura Ingraham is greater than your fear of being seen as sexist (or of offending people), go ahead and call her a cunt.
TRex and Jane shouldn't be surprised, however, when people are offended, even if they are feminists.
I used to use this word for Malkin as an insult, a lot. Like Shakes, I can't defend it. But man, I really *felt* it.
Same with me (and John Howard) for Ann Coulter. I can't speak for John, but I really meant it even if (especially because?) it's a horrible thing to say.
Very true, tomeck. And along those lines, I think what nightshift said about "dickless, pencil-dick, limp dick, no balls" etc. is very interesting. Calling a man any of those is, I think, pretty misogynistic because it indicates an approval of "manliness" and inherently indicates that it would be really really really bad to be all "womanly" and stuff. I think the only difference between that and calling a woman a slut or whore or cunt is the difference between making a comment that is degrading to women vs. making a comment that is degrading to women ABOUT A WOMAN. The latter, I think is a lot more viscous. After all, at the end of a long day of being called a ball-less pussy, I can comfort myself with the fact that I am actually a man. Not so much for women. And for what its worth, I think Shakes is right that relying on a sex specific description as an insult is basically a bad idea, and we'd all do better to stick with asshole.
Excellent post, Sis! Describing the power of language even as you so skillfully illustrate it!
P.S. Calling yourself "Punk Rock" is SO "Punk Rock."
(insert eye-rolling smiley here)
By the way, Guy Lombardo was the ORIGINAL Punk. Check out these lyrics to his biggest hit, "Enjoy Yourself:"
You work and work for years and years, you're always on the go
You never take a minute off, too busy makin' dough
Someday, you say, you'll have your fun, when you're a millionaire
Imagine all the fun you'll have in your old rockin' chair
Enjoy yourself, it's later than you think
Enjoy yourself, while you're still in the pink
The years go by, as quickly as a wink
Enjoy yourself, enjoy yourself, it's later than you think
You're gonna take that ocean trip, no matter, come what may
You've got your reservations made, but you just can't get away
Next year for sure, you'll see the world, you'll really get around
But how far can you travel when you're six feet underground?
Your heart of hearts, your dream of dreams, your ravishing brunette
She's left you and she's now become somebody else's pet
Lay down that gun, don't try, my friend, to reach the great beyond
You'll have more fun by reaching for a redhead or a blonde
Enjoy yourself, it's later than you think
Enjoy yourself, while you're still in the pink
The years go by, as quickly as a wink
Enjoy yourself, enjoy yourself, it's later than you think
Enjoy yourself now, because DEATH is just around the corner! (Not to mention referencing blowing your brains out!) Can you get more punk rock than that?
Nobody fucks with Guy when I'm around.
Great stuff, Shakes. Well-stated.
I'm gonna say it goes beyond punk. It's actually pretty Hard Core.
TRex and Jane shouldn't be surprised, however, when people are offended....
Didn't I just hear this phrase repeated quite a bit in the not too distant past about something else on FDL?
Well, I try to do things that are defensible, at least to myself. So I was confused that you would do something that you yourself consider indefensible, since that would (at least for me) lead to self-hatred. I never hate myself more than when I fail to live up to my own self-image and my own ideals. So I was confused that you would continue to do something that you personally find offensive.
Please don't misunderstand, I pass no judgment. I'm just explaining the sources of my confusion.
"The whole "I support reproductive rights, so I can't possibly be a sexist" argument is the vaguely tuned-in crowd's version of "I've got a black friend, so I can't possibly be a racist."
Amen.
i'm with you on this one shakes, reclamation of potent words can only go so far.
and i have to commend you for making me laugh hysterically with the phrase, "wax rhapsodic about a member of Congress wiping corporate cum from her lips with a cocktail napkin." brilliant, fewkin' brilliant!
I'll never look at Congressmen or cocktail napkins the same way again!
I saw this a couple days ago, and was torn.
I read the Tauscher post as using the word whore in the "corporate" context, as in she's a sellout bitch.
So that I didn't worry about that so much.
The whole cunt thing is a different story. It is a great word, but...
speaking a someone who often describes his place in the market as that of a whore, or to be specific a jingle whore whose only real hope for the day is enough time to brush my teeth between blow jobs. let me say that i find it demeaning to hard working honest whores everywhere to be lumped in with politicians.
while i am not known for demure or even restraint when it comes to my choice of words i have found that if the discussion moves from what you said to how you said it, you've already fucked up ya dummshit. i applaud you for being able to wade into this. and let me lead the other peasants in cheering "Long Live the Good Queen Cunt of Fuck Mountain."
I have never used "cunt" so much in my life as when I get steamed at Malkin. I see that I am not the only one. That makes me feel a little better cuz I was feeling a little guilty about it and I have been on the wagon for, oh, several months now.
Just need to rack it up to bad habits that you have to work on.
[Ahem.] Beg pardon, if I might, as one who has made a study of this... I happen to have an elderly mimeographed copy of the guidelines here, which took me years and years to find, and perhaps it would be a useful thing to share:
1.) You can use insulting invective to bash the group you belong to. (The principle of reclamation: the insult "queer" is now a term of pride among younger gays, and the race-based epithet beginning with "n" has actually found its way into not only the lyrics, but the names of some musical groups.)
2.) Using insulting group-specific invective around someone who is not of that group is questionable. (This is why clueless Caucasians, who are legion, will often remark with bafflement, "But that's what they call themselves!" Do not let them remain confused. That's how wars get started.)
3.) Using insulting group-specific invective to describe someone who is not of that group is suspect. (This happens when someone insults a man by calling him a "p---y". Any man who is sufficiently bothered by an insult based on a slang term for part of a woman's anatomy is in the mood to start some shit. Do not get into a situation in which a threatened person can start some shit. It will turn into war.)
4.) Using insulting group-specific invective if you are not a member of the group being insulted is unacceptable. (Caucasians can't bash people of color, gays can't bash straights, and followers of the Judeo/Christian/Islamic tradition had better figure out a way to knock off the three-way bashing before the entire planet turns into a giant smoking radioactive cinder.)
"Politically correct" is not a contemptible thing: in fact, "politically correct" used to be high praise applied to a soul aware enough to realize that most invective has to do with bodily functions, gender, or sexual behavior, all of which get enough purposeless negative press as it is.
The highest expression of respect for the essential dignity of the human being I can think of at this moment is when a woman refuses to participate in the astonishingly popular portrayal of male genitalia as ugly, filthy, threatening, or suitable only as a target for physical assault. The only times I have ever heard male genitalia described as "beautiful" (and it's been a rare experience) has been from gay men. If we were to quit penis-bashing for just a little bit, I bet we'd all be grateful for the silence.
My touchstones are these: no generalized denigration of any group, respect for religions I don't follow, a dedicated and ongoing effort to behave as if I believed in the essential worth of living beings, and never, ever to allow the race-based epithet beginning with "n" to emerge from my mouth. I don't always make it, but that's what I aim for.
(It's not always clear to me either. I always trip over it when a woman says "Bite me"; I thought the intent was to convey an insult, not an invitation.)
we'd all do better to stick with asshole.
Everybody's got one!
This happens when someone insults a man by calling him a "p---y". Any man who is sufficiently bothered by an insult based on a slang term for part of a woman's anatomy is in the mood to start some shit. Do not get into a situation in which a threatened person can start some shit. It will turn into war.
Wait half a minute.
There's a huge difference between saying "Sis, you're a dick" and "Phoenician, you're a cunt", and it lies in the cultural values attached to the words (and, by implications, the objects themselves).
A man is more insulted by being called a "cunt" or a "pussy" because the female genitialia are encoded as being more repulsive than the male. That's the point.
Indeed, calling someone a "dick" carries some meaning ("You're arrogant and/or cluelessly socially inept") whereas calling someone a "cunt" is pure malice. It's even more clear when used to discuss courage - a "pussy" needs to grow some "balls".
The better critique is not based on the slang term for the woman's anatomy being used as an insult per se ("asshole" is a useful and gender-neutral term); it's on the underlying cultural values displayed in those insults. A penis and testicles are active and strong, even when we don't like them, but a vagina is simply repulsive and cowardly.
Have never used the word.
Never will (but I don't usually refer to people as dicks, either; they're just not my personal style in choice of words, for any reason).
I've actually earned quite the reputation at work as a "wench", which I take as quite the compliment.
Especially since it's used with affection, or at least amused exasperation.
I also like "bitch" and "slut", but "slut" is less positive now that I'm married. 
Speaking as the Ned Flanders cum Lombardo fan in question, I wanted to make two points (and thanks Shakes for the post - it's terrific):
1. To me, it's about helping the other side. It's like asking for a Fox crawl: "Democrats call Democratic Congressman A C***" It was incredibly artless, obvious, ham-handed.
2. There was - and at present, is - no debate on this at FDL. TRex refused to approve my comments and bragged about it. (And me such an actual punk rocker, though aging now, alas). They posted nothing. It's silence over there except for the thudding, dull chorus of "amen, amen, amen."
because the female genitialia are encoded as being more repulsive than the male.
Repulsive? To me it's more about weakness. "You're a pussy" is the same as "you throw like a girl," "you're a wuss," etc.
I guess we all grow up with different contexts, and different influences. But that's how I always heard it used.
Now cunt on the hand, I can see someone else interpreting it as ugliness. But again, they way I "feel" that word, or they way I've always "heard" it, is that it's just a more vulgar (and highly detested) version of bitch.
We're all familiar with the double standard that a tough businessman is strong, charismatic, a hard negotiator, etc., but the same businesswoman is a bitch. I just always thought cunt was just a higher level of bitch. You know, like CoulterMalkin.
So do I, which is why I have no problem with calling someone a corporate whore, etc. It was the detailed elaboration on that concept that put Pachacutec's post over the edge, IMO, combined with other bits of nastiness like saying Tauscher wasn't being called a whore based on her sexual promiscuity, because "See photo." In other words, not just a whore, but an ugly whore.
It's more than that. Whore has a gender neutral meaning, the afformentioned corporate whore, or when we talk about me being work I don't enjoy if the money is right.
But he didn't just call her a whore. He called her a cum guzzling whore. Who believes that he would have used the same wording if talking about a man? No? Then it is sexist. Seems really fucking simple.
Great post, shakes!
Interesting topic. I'll stick to calling people fuckers because it's unsulting and yet true at the same time. Why yes, I do fuck.
Exactly, OD. He used deliberate and explicit sexist imagery in reference to "whore" then tried to weasel out of it by saying whore could be used in a gender neutral way. Oh and then, when it was pointed out that that's exactly the kind of imagery that's going to be used in reference to nancy pelosi to great outrage at FDL, he played dumb and acted like he's being accused of calling nancy Pelosi a cum guzzling whore. Gad.
I was confused that you would do something that you yourself consider indefensible, since that would (at least for me) lead to self-hatred.
You've got it backwards. It doesn't lead to self-hatred; it comes from it. Welcome to the subconscious mind of a person who is the sex she has been socialized to regard as Less Than.
Good post. You are a good thinker and a good writer. It was a pleasure to read.
You cannot reclaim what you never owned. Pejorative terms such as 'girl' that women onced owned are very different from those terms men use to demean us. Demeaning women is mainstream. You cannot possibly think that if we claim these terms by demeaning ourselves with them some good will come of it.
tend to regard "whore" as quite easily gender-neutral
Society, on the other hand, does not.
You cannot possibly think that if we claim these terms by demeaning ourselves with them some good will come of it.
I don't believe that referring to myself as a cunt is demeaning myself. Ya know--because I don't think that cunts are icky, not vaginas and not strong women who are called cunts, either.
When an independent, opinionated woman refers to herself as a bitch or a cunt, she robs the words of their capacity to be used to insult her. Wearing them becomes a shield she no longer needs against words that can no longer be weapons. I consider that a good thing.
I couldn't help but wonder, what with Hamsher's dialogue post about the brouhaha over language and usage, when she mentioned their daily blog traffic not once but twice, that FDL is more concerned about hits than it is about relevence.
Personally I consider the use of the word 'cunt' to be reprehensible, but I am also aware that the word is not anywhere near as negatively charged in other countries, so I do cut some slack for its use in some situations.
On another note, FDL has been out of my blogroll for a while. I got tired of the "all Lamont all the time" postings.
Woo-hoo! I loved your post. To be honest I never use the word cunt as an insult because I think it is such a lovely word for such a wonderful part of our bodies. Cunts are beautiful things to have, useful too.
I remember when the *F* word was just being spoken by women. OMG! the hand wringing and the deep sighs by some people at the thought that we might no longer be considered "ladies." Thank God I never wanted to be a lady, and used the word with relish and fervor. Freedom!
About 20 years ago I belonged to a group of women that got together every month for lunch and laughs. They were a great bunch of gals, not a lady among us as far as I could tell. After a cocktail or two we decided we needed a name, and came up with the "Cunts for lunch bunch."
I encourage all the women reading this to form such a group. Any group of women that would call themselves the "cunts for lunch bunch" has got to be fun and have the power in their own hands.
talking to one of my Brits (to whom the word is about as alarming as oatmeal)
Well, maybe so for the ones you know (young ? male ? Scottish ?), but as a general rule most British women would be very offended to be on the recieving end of the word.
The word is cosidered taboo in a way that "fuck" ceased to be long ago. It's used in Scotland more common between men, by younger generations towards men and women in an attempt to be rebellious (hip cool punk subsversive), and by men towards women as the same misogynist put-down as everywhere else on the planet.
What's the worst and lowest thing to be ? A woman.
What's the worst and lowest part of a woman ? The hole that men use to relieve themselves into.
Cunt is an insult here. Make no mistake about that.
Well, maybe so for the ones you know (young ? male ? Scottish ?)
I know British women who use it, too. I've heard it used by men and women alike quite freely (and as a term of endearment between friends) in Edinburgh, Nottingham, London... In fact, I don't know if any two words are used more frequently in London pubs than "fecking cunt," especially when a football game is on.
It's certainly not just the Brits I happen to know or the pubs in which I've happened to spend time; if you follow the link to Neddie's place in the post, he also comments on cunt being "common currency among both sexes" in Britain.
Which is, btw, not to say I'm unaware of its being used as an insult in Britain, but ever since I first visited Britain at 13 (which is where I first heard the word), I've had completely different experiences with its use there than here, where it remains almost exclusively a dirty word among nearly every cohort.
Heck, you're up early ! (late ?)
Yes I read the comment by Neddie as well which is what prompted me to post. I'm curious that there's this idea that it's no so bad in Britain. Yes it may well be used a lot by pub-going football fans, and assorted other members of the general public, but so are a whole host of other nasty bigotted words and attitudes - doesn't make any of those other gendered/racist/homophobic insults OK either.
I always thought 'twat' was worse than 'cunt', it's got all the misogynist flavour, but with an added moist onomatopoetic texture to it.
Thanks for that, Sis. It IS indefensable.
I've always wondered why it is that men take the one thing they long for most, and turn around to call it dirty, and disgusting; but always with the most vicious, spiteful, and savage tone of voice and body language.
Where did all this inter-sex hatred come from anyway?
This particular word conjures up abuse,for me personally. Being beaten while having that word spat at you repeatedly will do that. I suspect that I'm not the only woman that's experienced that,and I think that is where some of the cringe factor for the word comes from. One rarely sees it used in a context of love or fun.
This culture hates women while denying it does. The biggest insults you can hurl at a male generally are those that compare him to a female. "you throw like a girl","stop being such a pussy","don't be such a whiny little girl",etc,etc,ad nauseum.(having raised children of both sexes,I can say my boy child whined far more than the girl child did on her worst day,but I digress,lol)
FDL is a good info source,I use it for that mostly. I like Christy's writing the most,it's why I hit the site regularly. But beyond that,there seems to have been a rather hostile shift,if one happens to differ in opinion from the general blog population. It happens alot when online communities of any stripe get an upsurge in comments and membership.
I'd rather come here or to a blog of similar size where you can actually discuss things without getting lost in the crowd. Where else would I find the Pink Petulance and Dr Zero?
I was glancing through this discussion, because the "c-word" is a strange little obsession of mine. I'm really into words--I'm trying to figure out how to wed poetry with dramatic action without sounding all Shakespeare-pretentieux about it. But I want to add two notions to this conversation.
Cunt's etymology refers back to the Anglo-Saxon word "queynte" from which come many common words. Hunt. Country. Cup. Quaint. The word evidently referred to the wise-woman/crone of the village. People went to the "queynte" for advice, for herbs, for spells of healing and the like. A patriarchal society like the Romans comes in, and one of the first things they do is to appropriate the words for positive female role models and twist them into ugly things. Hence both the words cunt and witch have been co-opted into slimy debasement. Interestingly, the word "vagina" from the latin means "sheath", hence the lingo for the female anatomy en anglais is de facto misogynist as it basically is referencing the uterine tube in reference to the male sword. (Cicero might have asked, "What else are sheaths for but to house swords when they're sought?") Perhaps western women might wish to consider creating an entirely new word for all their various parts? Just a thought.
(I remember all this from an essay by Inga Muscio who also has written a book about this illustrious word, which btw, she absolute adores and hopes one day, that women will be bold enough to name their daughters "Cunt.")
The other thing I would like to also point out is the wonderful SOUND of the word. To me, the poetry of the word is "dracular." Vampiric. Fang-alicious. If we could work back from the sound of the word, we could have a lot of fun with it. I'm thinking of this analogy: Cunt:vampire as grunt:laborer. The onomatopoeia of the sound of fangs inserting into flesh--"cunt"-- and then bringing in the linguistic process of synecdoche where the part stands in for the whole. Ergo: Grunts grunt, and cunts cunt. Again, an entirely different direction for la palabra de "c" but I'm a Pisces with my barracuda swimming one way and my blowfish swimming das anderes.
Molto graz'.
The word evidently referred to the wise-woman/crone of the village.
That's really interesting. Thanks for that, FW.
doesn't make any of those other gendered/racist/homophobic insults OK either
I'm not pointing to the ubiquity of the word "cunt" in Britain (in my experience) to say it makes its use as an insult okay. I'm pointing to it because I've generally not heard it used as an insult in Britain, or a sort of affectionate insult: "Come on, ya cunt!" to a lagging friend in a cheery voice, much like, "Come on, ya asshole!" without any real animous behind the word. (And I've heard both men and women use it this way.) The difference is that's it almost exclusively used with venom in the US.
And, as I said, that's not to say it's never used that way in Britain. But way more people there (especially people 40 and younger) seem to use it so casually, alongside the plethora of male genital-related epithets in Brit slang (dick, cock, knob-end, wanker, tosser, plonker, bell-end, etc.), that it will soon, inevitably, lose its unique sting.
"Didn't I just hear this phrase repeated quite a bit in the not too distant past about something else on FDL?" Good memory, Misty. It was in regards to Jane's use of blackface, and TRex's equally dismissive response to Liza Sabater and others who pointed out its inappropriateness.
I wonder what the Brits who read this blog and Wolcott's blog and Tom Watson's blog are thinking of this whole dust-up, being that "twunt" (from the words "twat" and "cunt") is now such a common British term among both sexes (as for example here) as to be almost not a cuss word any more ("fuck" having reached that point about a decade ago).
James Joyce laughed up his sleeve like a little schoolboy when noticing the naughty anagram "Tunc" in the Book of Kells -- and featured it prominently in Finnegans Wake:
"...plainly inspiring the tenebrous Tunc page of the Book of Kells (and then it need not be lost sight of that there are exactly three squads of candidates for the crucian rose awaiting their turn in the marginal panels of Columkiller, chugged in their three ballotboxes, then set apart for such hanging committees, where two was enough for anyone..." (p.119)
Here's the old gal now.
See the "three squads of candidates chugged in their ballot-boxes"?
And that lovely silly anagram, giggling wickedly right there, front and center...
It's not always an insult, you know.
Fiendish Woman: P. Diddy. By a country mile.
"Fiendish Woman": I like that! I'm stealing it. (That and "Green Zone Pundit", which someone today invented to describe DC's pro-Bush, pro-GOP chattering classes.)
Oh, and I agree with you on "P. Diddy".
Methinks the UK is a bit too busy electing female politicians to places of prominence to get all worked up about Bad Words.
In fact, even though the UK allows the words "whore", "cunt", "twat", and "twunt" (not to mention other words like "slapper") to be uttered in public without anyone staggering to a fainting couch, the UK has done something I don't think the US ever will accomplish: Allow a woman to become Head of State.
The best we've managed to do, nearly thirty years later, is get a woman in as Speaker of the House -- and that was only a couple of weeks ago. This despite our being far more worried about sexist language than the folk across the pond.
Pratically any conversation in my local sounds like it could have come from a Derek and Clive record.
Although for the most part being amused by americans fainting away on hearing 'cunt' and laughing when they pixelate finger signs - I still recognize that "cunt" spoke the right way, is a dreadfully powerful weapon-word.
However, the biggest word-crime is the filching of words by the US.
Wanker, for example, is increasinly used in the states.
It's a bloody crime - especially as in return we get such gems as "deplane".
At least I can still amuse myself when americans talk about their "fanny". May they never wake up.
It's a bloody crime - especially as in return we get such gems as "deplane".
Come on now--we've given you specific usage for gems like "dude" and "whatever," too.
I just loved reading this post so much. Beautiful.
Oopsie: the "anon" above was me. I loved it. Specifically the pure joy/indefensibility that turned Hamilton Lovecraft and nightshift66's heads inside-out (at the top of the thread).
Thanks, Regina. Much appreciated.
I can't go on. I can't deal with the total emus anymore. I have expended all rationality. PW's boldfaced posts have slain me. I am just too tired to deal with the self-obvious fact that the posts by Pach and TRex were degrading to women. And that most of the defenses of the FDL boys were based on internet clique-ishness and partisanship, which I find to be massively obtuse. I found Jane's post addressing the topic at FDL to be a fine example of talking out of both sides of your face, and you know who does that? Emus and their army of cucumbers.
Punko out- great discussion on the board here , tho' (really), nobody told anyone to eat shit and die.
Emus and their army of cucumbers.
- Nice to see you, as ever, Punko.
Hey, Pinko:
Masticate ordure and expire.
I was considerably less charitably inclined toward Jane's post at FDL, which I found self-serving, smug and diversionary.
Joyce would have been an A-list blogger, Neddie. No question.
"Fiendish Woman": I like that! I'm stealing it.
You'll be stealing from the Master Himself: Joyce referred to Dublin's Phoenix Park as "Fiendish Park."
I am only the messenger in this exchange.
Fantastic essay, Shakes. And if I get one of the women's studies jobs I've applied for, I'll be talking to you about copyright issues so I can use it as a course text.
Awesome. My radical feminist plan to take over the world is working!
Got to say that cunt as an insult would be appropriate for Coulter and co as no one would pay any attention to them if they weren't people with that bit of anatomy badmouthing other others with the same anatomy for the most part. (Would whore cunt be more appropriate perhaps?) The idea of needing a female to insult someone female effectively is in itself sexist, using language that shows the attitude behind it can be argued as appropriate if lacking in imagination and class.
Cunt? Are you even allowed to say that word on your blog?? Jeepers, what's our country coming to?
I did not count the cunts in your article, but considering how many folks read your blog, I'm sure that someone did. If I had counted them I would have been compelled to beat your tally in this comment so you are gratefully spared that anguish.
CNN sickens me. Most network news makes me ill, but yes I wonder where the hell some of these women come from. Just goes to show you that some women can be just as ignorant/vile as some men can I guess.
Here I am, all late and shit, but this is a GREAT post, Shakes. I myself, although hardly pure of mind and tongue, tend to be very leery of "reclamation" arguments. Even if you accept the idea that it's possible "reclaim" degrading words, what does that get you? The enormous relief of knowing that it's still okay to say faggot or cunt or whatever? Is that really so precious to anyone? Is it more important than overcoming patriarchy or heterosexism? I suppose everyone will have their answer. I'm saying "no". If it helps (even a TINY bit) to get to a world where no one has to be someone else's punch-toy or fuckhole, then I'm more than happy to be enslaved by the Language Police and never use those words again.
It's used in Scotland more common between men, by younger generations towards men and women in an attempt to be rebellious (hip cool punk subversive), and by men towards women as the same misogynist put-down as everywhere else on the planet.
What's the worst and lowest thing to be ? A woman.
What's the worst and lowest part of a woman ? The hole that men use to relieve themselves into.
Bingo. People who imagine that they can just arbitrarily redefine hate-terms in fun, sexy, empowerful new ways must be living in some wonderful world where patriarchy isn't and invisible and enormously powerful field shaping every object and process in the culture. That must be a nice place. Too bad it's not where the rest of us live. In THIS world, the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house. You can be as pro-choice and punk-rock and down with the ladies as you want, but "cunt" is still the master's tool.
"Cunt's etymology refers back to the Anglo-Saxon word "queynte" from which come many common words. Hunt. Country. Cup. Quaint. The word evidently referred to the wise-woman/crone of the village."
It seems to go back even further; many related words share the same Indo-European cu and gwen root, as discussed on this fascinating page.
There's a tendency among the more shrill among us to consider that saying something like "any argument I tried to use to defend my right to call someone a cunt—not ironically, not as a compliment—would be total and complete bullshit" works without actually bothering to show why.
You can say "cunt" is misogynist a million times, and it still won't be for someone like me. I'm English. We don't use it much to refer to women. (I couldn't imagine saying "I'm going out to get some cunt" and expecting not to reduce my audience to tears of laughter.) What we do do is use names for what you might call the nether regions as insults, usually for those we think stupid: "prick", "arse", "cunt". The words quickly shed their original meaning, in just the same way that other words do.
But hey! Women have arses! OHMYGOD! My first thought on reading your post was "what an arse!". Now I realise how thoroughly degrading to womankind that was.
Anyway, fuck it. If you were smart enough to understand how words work, you wouldn't have written this bullshit (my earnest apologies to decent cows everywhere) in the first place. And yes, it's mean. It's meant to be. It's a swearword, dur.
Dr. Zen,
"Prick"/"dick", at least in American usage, has entirely different context than "cunt." A "prick" is a guy who's being a little more aggressive than most guys are supposed to be. But he's still being a guy, he just needs to tone it down a bit. A "cunt" is a waste of human flesh. There is no redemption, no nudge and wink, for the "cunt."
As for you oh-so-cleverly pointing out the "asshole" example and how it is thoroughly degrading: (1) the usage of "asshole" is much closer to that of "prick" than "cunt," and (2) "asshole" doesn't have the gender coding of "cunt" because, duh, everyone has assholes but not everyone has cunts.
And if YOU were smart enough to know how words work, you'd understand that.
Oh, and yes, of COURSE "cunt" is supposed to be mean. It's also sexist.
Just like calling someone "nigger" or "faggot" is supposed to be mean. It's also racist and homophobic.
I don't understand. If TRex called Tom a cunt, how does that qualify as "criticizing a female pundit by calling her a cunt?". Is Tom female? Isn't there something to be said for the notion that calling a man a cunt is not the same thing as calling a woman a cunt?
and if you call someone articulate or a nigger you get your head chopped off. how edwards could have taken someone from this population swamp is unbelievable. who are you? is this the new voice of the female? there is a generations gap here and gals like you are intolerable. a very sad commentary on progressives today. thanks to the press for the reveal. hope you cockroaches scatter soon under the light of those that really vote.
If indeed you really went to Loyola, tell your parents to demand their money back IMMEDIATELY. Your angry/sad little world would be greatly relieved by some serious study of the true Roman Catholic Church.
Yeah, be sure to catch the part about the Inquisition. I hear that's a real hoot.
I swear, I go away for a few hours, and the trolls start infesting old posts ...
There's nothing inherently wrong with words like cunt, cock or fuck (or any of their variants) when used in their literal/anatomical sense.
However, is is unenlightened to use these words in a non-literal and abusive manner and reflects a deep seated puritanical streak that views sex as dirty and shameful.
On the other hand, words like whore, slut and skank are inherently misogynistic --they disparage women for sexual proclivities in a way that men aren't disparaged.
Full agreement with Yoni, it's the 'intention' that is relevant. In various other languages, of the Indo-European group,(some from cultures far more vicious & gynophobic even than amerikan)the comparable words of insult/disparagement are entirely male oriented.
Incidentally, has anyone done an etymology of 'skank'? So new a word (unused in the rest of the english speaking world, except ironically to indicate the unlovely gangsta aspect of amerika)ought to be easily traceable - almost onomatopoeic, could it originally have been approbative? May I sign off as 'lingham' just this once?
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