"I'd like to see that, too."
The presumption in that is pretty staggering.
Sometimes I wonder if it's just common for men to have some sort of mild autism.
The spiky heals might be a good idea... they'd do more damage to his groin.
"And since we're fantasizing at each other, I'd love to hit you over the head with a 2 x 4. I don't mean to be offensive."
Things I'd like to have the guts to say back.
the spiky heals might be a good idea... they'd do more damage to his groin.
/giggle. Dude, all I could picture after that is taking one off and chucking it at his face.
Nato, 
Not all men, for sure. But the gap between this schmuck and, for example, my humble and respectful boyfriend, is staggering.
Err, um, damn.
btw - we're not all like that.
wow, just wow.
aimai
When I say men might frequently have mild autism, I mean, beyond the socialized autism that passes for stoic or whatever. I really suspect there's some sex-linked (mild) gene that induces moderate (by clinical standards) mind blindness. I've met guys like this, and they're like this even with male friends, but traditional male culture tends to hide it. Whatever its source, such cognitive deficits are going to lead to misery for at least one, and possibly a whole family, if there's no intervention.
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is how you go from politely complimentary (and I did take his first comment as a nice compliment) to sleazy and vaguely threatening in the space of three lines of dialogue. Spiky heels?
Not only sleazy and vaguely threatening he clearly implies that you exist for his viewing pleasure. “I would like to see.” Almost like a consumer and a product. You are his voiceless product. And it rolled off his tongue so matter of factly.
What he would like to see? What makes him think you or any other woman gives a fuck what he wants to see?
The hubris just fucking astounds me!
we're not all like that
I agree. I don't hate men. I hate disgusting people.
Gross me out the door.
I really suspect there's some sex-linked (mild) gene that induces moderate (by clinical standards) mind blindness.
Yes, it's called privilege.
Tart--did the creep have his right or left foot stuck in his mouth?
Melissa, I guess I'm just skeptical that privilege can do that much damage to a person's cognitive abilities. For one, I think I've been as privileged as anyone, and even on my worst days I wouldn't ever have said anything like that. It just seems to me that there's a silent class of men with biological disorders whose conditions have flown below the radar because privilege prevents anyone from calling a deficit a deficit. Of course, even if it is all just privilege and bad luck, the fact remains that these people need an intervention. I really do pity these guys, because I just don't know how they're ever going to be constructive, happy members of society. Even a full return to classic patriarchy would just mask their misery, partially by creating so much greater misery around them for contrast.
EEEEEWWWWW. Though I actually have strong associations with southern california and sleazy dudes like this.
It's not just offensive and entitled, though; it's creepy and stalkerish. "You're usually doing the casual thing" = I've been watching you, and I want you to be aware of that.
Congrats, though, on having a decent comeback. I never do at the time I need it.
Oh - and best of luck on the GRE! What kind of program are you interested in?
Those 3 lines of dialogue are great -- I bet dude never thought he'd crossed over into sexist pervy-land until you called him out on it. Because, probably, few women had before.
Nato, clearly the guy has antisocial tendencies, as he doesn't realize that you're not supposed to say things like that. But if only the weird dudes say it out loud, how many 'normal' dudes are thinking it?
Nato: it's not so much priviledge, as ENTITLEMENT. You can be priviledged, but if your parents raised you right, you won't feel entitled to have or even LOOK AT whatever you want, whenever you want.
This is sick, and sad to say, the reason I don't like leaving my house a lot of the time. I know that means I'm avoiding all the nice people, but this shit bothers me so much, and I've encountered it so much, that I can't even stand it.
I can barely leave the house without getting heckled on the street, and sitting in a cafe? There's no way I could expect to sit there peacefully and not be stared at the entire time. I'm really bad at ignoring this - I find it really intrusive.
Betsy- I took the regular GRE (700 verbal, go me!) and now I'm preparing for the lit test. Applying for PhD programs. Intimidating to say the least!
There's no way I could expect to sit there peacefully and not be stared at the entire time
You must be very good-looking.
I'm sorry, I just realized that your comment could be construed exactly the opposite way, too. I apologize for being flippant and rude.
I'm ok looking, but I really just put it down to being a woman. I am not trying to attact attention, and don't understand why I do.
But I do find it creepy and disturbing.
Oh, and Tart:
I don't think it's me - it just that there are a lot of creeps out there! Enough to make me uncomfortable. Ok, that is all.
I can't believe that creep thought it was ok to put in a request. You might have asked him to "show a little more leg next time."
madaha - that makes me really sad. I have to say that I don't see that happening where I live now (in the San Francisco Bay Area) compared to lots of other places (in ascending order of anecdotal badness: Colorado Springs, Los Angeles metro, Tennessee, western Texas) It's a major, if not quite *the* major reason I wanted to live here. If you have the opportunity, it might be worthwhile to try and find a community that doesn't accept that kind of behavior.
And even "normal" dudes who might be thinking what Mr Antisocial enacted might internalize the values rehearsed in the process of being respectful and considerate. One hopes that the benefits would be sufficiently evident to motivate that sort of self-cultivation.
Well, feeling watched is creepy. But if you don't believe you're attractive, it can be simply confounding. Own your beauty, yo. And think of better things to say to creeps than I can.
I actually live in the Bay Area! But people are much more intrusive here than where I used to live (Boston). But I find Europe the best. They people watch, but more respectfully somehow.
Really?
It interesting to read that this is your experience of a place I have lived most of my life (Northern California). I love living in the Bay Area because there is so little of the BS I have encountered elsewhere. Not to mention, Bay Area folks are friendly and pleasant for the most part.
I have to say that predatory men, as well as men who are not so much predatory as easily intimidated by self-assertive women, are always trolling for someone meek, and may interpret avoidance as a sign of weakness, increasing their interest. It shouldn't, obviously, be incumbent on women to adapt to these sorts, and I wish there was something specific to do about this. Short of that, I think that only a complete paradigm shift in the social construction of gender and gender relations will really fix those problems.
Madaha, I can't agree with that. First of all, it depend on where you are in Europe - different countries have different mentalities. Secondly, IMO European men aren't better than Americans; I've had creeps come on to me in the same intrusive way - be it in England, France and Germany.
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is how you go from politely complimentary (and I did take his first comment as a nice compliment) to sleazy and vaguely threatening in the space of three lines of dialogue.
Yuck...........
Gross.
Karin: argh, you're probably right.
Radical Centrist: sure, Bay Area peeps are cool enough. But I guess as a woman alone, there's really no where to go to avoid stares and heckles.
I'm sure others don't feel AS creeped out as I do, but it feels threatening to me.
Tart - For literature programs, I take it? That's great - best of luck to you. Let me know if you're out Cambridge way and need any local tips.
Tart - If you don't already have a copy of the Princeton Review guide for the Lit GRE Subject Test, I'd recommend it. I had great success with it.
Congrats on the awesome Verbal score, and best of luck with the Lit test!
Well, it still happens, even in the Bay Area - I only intended to say it happens less often. I'm sure it also varies by location. I live in SF proper and spend a lot of time up and down the Peninsula, so that's been my primary experience. Oakland has been pretty good as well. Berkeley seems hit-and-miss, and touristy areas are not so great either.
Anyone know about Seattle and Portland? They seem pretty good to me, but I've never lived in either. Manhattan was awesome as well. Turkey and Iraq were the worst I've ever seen for men staring at women, though there's too many ways to interpret that to make any conclusions.
"You'd like to see that? I'd like to see world peace, a clean and cheap alternative fuel, universal health care and your head on a stick. I don't mean to be offensive."
Or maybe
"While you're at it, wish for a pony."
But then, I'm rude like that.
Seriously, this guy needs to recognize that women are not mobile set dressing for the hit tv series that is his life.
Nato:
Ohmigod! In Turkey IT'S ALL ABOUT THE STARE! It's a way of life there. But I sucked it up, since I was on their turf. But I love Turkey. It's awesome.
I actually lived in Seattle for 4 years, and it's the best, really. I'd move back in a heartbeat, if there was a job for me.
I live in Oakland. There's a cute local cafe here in my hood, but I've been kept out by the stare-oholics.
Sigh in my case "the terrorists have won". I know it's tragic. But don't feel too bad for me, we all have our sensitivities we have to bear.
But a gender cultural overthrow would be super rad.
I'm fat and have a gimpy leg, so I'm invisible, which is kind of excellent.
bbrugger:
for cereal! Why doesn't he just buy himself some paper dolls, and dress them up in whatever fashions he wants? That's what my sisters and I used to do.
So, is it the thinking that spiky heels might be attractive that makes this guy a pig or more the fact that he felt entitled to articulate that thought.
I'm a man who has inappropriate thoughts about women from time to time (e.g. thoughts concerning sex and attractiveness about women with whom I am not acquainted), but I figure if I keep those thoughts to myself, I'm probably not a monster.
All other considerations aside, didn't you just want to ask: "has that EVER gotten you any??" I mean, was there some woman back in that guy's past who was like "Hmmm, that's a great idea! Why don't I pick up some heels, head over to your place and dance on your balls!"?
As a gay man (who's also 6'2" and pretty big), I'm a big fan of aggressively sexually harassing straight guys who stare at every female body they see. I do it on the theory that they really don't understand what that kind of unwanted attention feels like.
"Dude, next time you should do some different pants. Something tight, or maybe a jock-strap for easy access...I'd like to see that, too." I wonder how flattered he'd be?
Maurinsky, a redhead is never invisible.
Why don't I pick up some heels, head over to your place and dance on your balls!"
Ugh. I hate that shit.
I also hate when men approach me on the street for no particular reason and say things like "Hey, pretty lady (or girl or baby or beautiful or sexy...i've gotten this a lot) why don't you give me a smile?"
To which I usually give some generic response like "Because I don't feel like smiling, asshole."
And then, if I make the mistake of accidentally smiling at a stranger or in the direction of a stranger or in the vicinity of a stranger, I often get "You should smile more. You're so pretty when you smile."
It kind of makes me want to rip someone's face off.
This really only happens to me in Denver. I haven't had as much trouble with it in other places.
Colleen, I have written extensive posts about that very thing. It makes me feel violent in a special sort of way.
But people are much more intrusive here than where I used to live (Boston).
That lack of public intrusion is usually described as cold aloofness. I find it delightful, but I have never liked talking to passersby.
I'm sorry to hear about that. I'm with Res Publica. I tend to harrass back, though I once told a guy (in response to a comment much like the ones aimed at you) that I thought he'd look better with a bag over his head or a gag.
Cap'n Colleen - my fiancee got that sort of thing all the time at Fort Campbell. I try to tell her that it's perfectly fine to be an asshole back, but she always feels bad about it. "They're just trying to cheer me up," she says, and I say, "And they don't seem to care that they accomplish the opposite." "But it's just me," she says, and I respond, "No, other women just pretend not to mind." I wish she wasn't stuck in the Army with all these little boys and women with Stockholm syndrome. Thanks for being an antidote to that self doubt, even if she can't benefit from it right now.
oddjob: I know, when I first moved to Boston, I thought everyone was mean. But then I came to LOVE IT!
Tart: ugh!!! I HATE the "smile police"! I actually did get that in Boston one time. I was doing my thing at the laundromat, and while I was unloading my clothes, some old dude said "smile, it can't be that bad"! So I scowled at him.
It's like: Bitch, you don't know my life!
But why should I do my laundry with a grin on my face? That's totally incongruous, to me.
I'm fat and have a gimpy leg, so I'm invisible, which is kind of excellent.
I'm also fat and have a gimpy leg (because Maurinsky and I are obviously separated-at-birth twins, who each got one good leg), but that still hasn't ever seemed to render me invisible.
Just two nights ago, Mr. Shakes and I were parked at a stoplight -- I was in the passenger seat -- and this truck pulled up beside us. I could tell out of the corner of my eye the driver was staring at me, so I glanced over to see if I knew him or something (I didn't), and he was grinning at me and waving. I "waved" back, scowling, and then his wave turned into a "come here" gesture. I looked away, and he honked, still trying to get my attention. Finally, the light changed and we drove away.
Mr. Shakes: "What the fook?!"
Me: "Has that ever worked?"
It was 10:00 at night, pissing down rain, and I was in the car with another dude. What were the chances I was going to get out of the car and -- what did he expect to happen? -- get in his truck, drive home with him, fuck him...?
Sheesh.
"Hey honey, I'm gonna go blow that guy. Pick me up here at midnight?"
I know, when I first moved to Boston, I thought everyone was mean.
Happens to everyone. It takes a while (sometimes the one who moved here never gets it) to realize it isn't hostility so much as it is pure and simple reserve (albeit a whopping heap of it).
"Hey honey, I'm gonna go blow that guy. Pick me up here at midnight?"
Okay, I gotta stop reading this thread before I hurl.......
I just wanted to add that I would never say anything, but I would have trouble not looking at either Tart or her brother because they both glow, like they are carved out of some special wood that is filled with light.
"Bitch, you don't know my life!"
That's what they say on Springer!
"Hey honey, I'm gonna go blow that guy. Pick me up here at midnight?"
Aaaand another monitor and keyboard are drenched in freshly-spewed coffee....
they both glow, like they are carved out of some special wood that is filled with light
Beerglow! 100% of drunken Scotsmen agree. It also gives you great teeth -- and Tart and Chemist both have great teeth.
Proof positive.
Le SIGH. I feel you, sister. At least he doesn't whack off when he watches you. Although, if you indulge his spiky heel request, that'll be next.
Maurinsky, that is an incredibly sweet thing to say. Beerglow is entirely possible. It could also be all the caffeine.
Y'know, whenever I read about incidents like this, I can't help but be amazed at how hard some guys seem to find it not to be total morons. I mean, I'd never be this crass, and I'm not an especially great person or anything. I just don't get people sometimes.
And shall we blame our Scottish genes for our tendency towards fatness? The fact that Chemist and I don't weigh 300 pounds each is seriously due to actual effort on our parts. My size 4 friends don't eat nearly as healthy as my size 12 ass does. Those whores.
Wait. Scottish people aren't fat, are they,
Nato: from what I can remember of my long-ago social psychology classes, privilege does cause "damage" to one's cognitive abilities by training one's mind to operate in certain ways. Like from further up the page, where I knew what jive was, but somehow hadn't ever put that together with the jive in shuck and jive. It never came up, so I never thought about it. The fact that it didn't come up, and that I didn't make that connection independently, I would argue, is a result of my being insulated from situations where I WOULD make that connection, and that's a symptom of my privilege.
It's ze German genes! We big hearty Teutonic folk.
Wait. Scottish people aren't fat, are they.
They are in my house!
(By which I mean me more than Mr. Shakes.)
Our bodies think it's 3 degrees below zero, and are holding onto the fat for dear life. My metabolism = crap.
I just wanted to delurk and add another voice to the Bay Area conversation in this thread. I've lived in San Francisco for around 15 months now, and I have never in my entire life experienced as much street harassment as I do in this city. It's been a real shock -- not at all what I expected for such a supposedly progressive city. It's gotten to the point where I hate walking around the Mission District without a male companion. I hate that too.
I spent seven years in Seattle prior to moving here. I don't have a single memory of street harassment in that city. Men occasionally approached me to talk, but it was in a far more respectful manner than I've encountered in SF, where there seem to be tons of men who feel entitled to comment on my ass.
Marijane-
Don't you love the comments on your ass from strangers? It makes me want to stay inside by myself all the time.
[Begging forgiveness if this in any way constitutes threadjacking.]
I wonder if any of the rest of you are struggling with what I'm struggling with right now, which has to do with the "invisibility" maurinsky mentioned. I frequently read posts on feminist blogs about the very real problem of men ogling and heckling women. I remember a thread at feministing, for example, that drew 100+ comments from women sharing anecdotal evidence about guys who had paid them "compliments" that ranged from inappropriate to downright creepy and stalkerish.
And I thought, This is a real problem, and one I'm angry about for all the right reasons. But I also thought, I bet it's a lot easier to post a comment about a guy saying "You've got great tits" than to admit that one about a guy saying "You should put a bag over your head" (which did indeed happen to me once). Being told that you're gross is at least as infuriating a manifestation of the "your body is public property" assumption as being told, inappropriately, that you're hot.....but I'm sure I'm not the only one who still has enough insecurity and internalized issues to find it much, much harder to admit to.
I often feel---and of course I'm not alone in this---that my appearance is the one area of my life in which I haven't successfully translated my feminist principles into real-world practice. Posts like this always cause me anguish, because in my deepest heart, I know I'd secretly rather be righteously pissed off that guys were ogling me than be angrily humiliated that they were calling me ugly....and I feel a little guilty about that, for reasons I probably don't have to enumerate to most of you.
Thoughts?
Aaack, poor proofreading in the second full paragraph. Apologies.
Wow... what a jerk.
I think one reason I've learned never to act the way this moron did, is because in online games I play female characters a lot.
My fellow males - if you ever want to get an idea of what the other half of the species faces, try that. You don't even have to make an especially attractive character. SOMEONE is bound to start hitting on you at some point; and it can get downright creepy.
(its also an interesting way to learn what transgender people might feel; because once your 'found out' it can lead to some pretty explosive reactions...)
I've actually had respectfully appreciative comments on my ass from strangers. They tell me, politely, that I have a nice behind, not using words with explicitly sexual connotations, and walk away promptly. I think it's the walking away that makes it respectful.
I'd say don't blame yourself for feeling like that, Lizard. The fault lies entirely with the assholes who think that it's their right to comment on your appearance, or Tart's, or anyone else's -- and with the social forms and customs that have led them to think so.
I know I'd secretly rather be righteously pissed off that guys were ogling me than be angrily humiliated that they were calling me ugly
I can't speak for all women, Lizard, but I've been both insulted and complimented plenty. I've been called fat by strangers, and 'accused' of being pregnant. I'm a curvy size 10/12, which means that to some men I'm a hot-ass piece of delicious, and to a whole lot of men, I'm an untouchable lard-ass. I know what it feels like to go out with my size 4 friends and feel like I'm blending in with the wall. I've had great conversations with guys during online dating who, upon seeing me in person, decided I was 'just not their desired body type.' Wev. To each his own. In certain environments, all people feel like that. You are SO not alone.
Lizard, it frustrates me as well. We're instructed from very early to measure ourselves based on whether or not we're considered pretty, and that we ought to be flattered if anyone notices us or crushed if they don't. I try very hard not to think of myself that way, but I think there's a difference between being flattered when someone says that you look nice and enabling bad sexist behavior (mostly the difference between someone who tells you that you look nice today and implies nothing about you by it and someone who tries to tell you what to do or how you are because of the way you look.)
Personally I like it when someone says something creepy because it gives me the chance to land something nasty on them, situation dependent, of course.
Also: that doesn't make you shallow or anything else. It is thoroughly disgusting that anybody should feel entitled to insult you like that, and I hope at least a few of them have been told to bugger off.
Oh, also, since there's a difference between respectful and disrespectful in noticing you, don't feel bad about wanting to be noticed. There is good attention to be had. Everyone wants to think they do alright so there's nothing inherently sexist in wanting to be affirmed and nothing wrong in turning down bad attention.
You were probably too classy for the guy with the bag comment. Sometimes men are nasty about appearance not because they're responding to the way they think you look, but to punish you for non-conformity.
Thanks, all---I guess what I'm saying is that although I'd be enraged if a guy commented on my ass*, I'm more enraged (and hurt) when a guy calls me ugly, and I suppose I'd like to reach some feminist nirvana in which I could identify both comments as equally offensive.
*For the record, my ass is adorable.
Lizard, yeah. That type of harassment doesn't get talked about much, and since the ...I don't want to say "positive," because it's not, but I guess the "non-putdown" harassment is usually what's talked about, it makes the non-discussed kind seem extra shameful....
I don't really get ogled (that I've noticed), and I'm usually just totally ignored. Which certainly isn't all bad. But it does boggle me a bit when I come across threads where many, many women talk about being harassed while makeupless, in sweats, etc., etc. I used to wonder what exactly was wrong with me that I was abnormal in this department, too.
I suspect, though, that subconsciously I try *not* to be noticed. I don't know, I'm puzzled by all that vis-a-vis myself, and I've rewritten this comment four times and it's still slipshod.
Sometimes I wonder if it's just common for men to have some sort of mild autism.
Gee, that's not too sexist of a comment, is it. And not too respectful of those who actually DO have autism. Like my niece, for example.
This guy's a jerk and a perv. That doesn't mean the rest of us are. Or autistic, as if that's something awful and nasty like this behavior. To equate the two is wrong.
Just sayin'...
annejumps---exactly.
I've often noticed, too, that the men who seem to be the most critical ain't exactly god's gift to women themselves.
Funny thing about that pesky little double standard...
It's really sad to hear the Mission is bad, though it might explain some of the experiences I've had there, where (what I felt was) standard friendliness met with stony reactions. I used to go to Muddy's on Valencia at 24th (I always go to a coffee shop on weekends and spend all day writing), and one barista there seemed to be looking at me when I looked up*, while the other, who came on later, seemed to really not enjoy my attempts to be amiable. Finally I just felt like I had to go somewhere else, since I spend way too much time at coffee shops not to have some sort of rapport with my fellows. I suppose there are many different interpretations of why I rubbed the latter barista the wrong way, but this one seems to make sense, especially since I can easily come off as attempting to flirt. Kind of makes me feel like a jerk, though.
*I suspect this is because I frequently look in the direction of the counter when I contemplate if I should get more coffee, or a water, or whatever. Her experience with staring men would, under this interpretation, tell her to anticipate my looking at her constantly.
Here in balmy Cleveland, Ohio we get plenty of guys with "Hey Baby" turrets. I work in downtown Cleveland, and back when I used to smoke, my fellow female smokers and I would get all sorts of crap from guys on the street along the lines of "Hey baby, you'd be so much finer if you'd get rid of that cigarette".
My usual reaction was to ignore the ass, because not only was I getting unwanted attention for owning a uterus, but I was getting a twofer with the whole concerned asshole act as well.
I would love to be brave enough to tell some of these guys to fuck off, but my main problem is that some of them strike me as also being mentally ill. We've got a high population of untreated mentally ill people in downtown Cleveland, and it's not a pretty sight when you cross the wrong person who also happens to be off his meds.
Lizard,
I think one of the major differences between the "damn, i'd like to tap that" comments and the "you're fat and ugly" comments is the limited ways to respond to the latter.
If some asswipe tells you you're hot to trot or makes some ridiculous comment about the size of your rack, it's easy to respond with righteous indignation. But when a stranger calls you ugly or chubby or whatever, there's not a whole lot you can do. You can yell or make a smartass comment back, but the loudmouth will just keep calling you fat and ugly, but might use more offensive words.
In my experience, when I respond angrily to the men who think they're complimenting me, the worst they'll do is act offended and call me a bitch. I can live with that.
So, in my experience (because I've certainly had both types of encounters), I have a harder time dealing with the mean comments because I feel like I'm powerless to really fight back. I can mouth off, sure. But, I can't end it. I can't walk away feeling like I'm on top. I can't make him apologize for being a narrow-minded superficial oaf.
But maybe that's just me....
Oh, also, since there's a difference between respectful and disrespectful in noticing you, don't feel bad about wanting to be noticed. There is good attention to be had. Everyone wants to think they do alright so there's nothing inherently sexist in wanting to be affirmed and nothing wrong in turning down bad attention.
Mouthyb, I was going to say something to that effect. What that guy said to Tart was creepy bullshit, and too many women have to deal with that way too often. At the same time, we all like to look at people we find attractive and even say something to them from time to time. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with that; you just need to learn the right moment and right way to do it.
"Sometimes I wonder if it's just common for men to have some sort of mild autism."
Gee, that's not too sexist of a comment, is it. And not too respectful of those who actually DO have autism. Like my niece, for example.
Thank you, QuakerDave. I also disagreed with the subsequent comment that there could be some genetic basis as to why "men" are this way.
QuakerDave - my comment is intended seriously, though I recognize it's easy to interpret as me using "autistic" as an epithetical attempt at humor. Please see my later comment; I've actually been following autism research for a little while, and have come to believe that many are on the very mild end of Autism Spectrum Disorders. It also seems, anecdotally, that men seem more prone to this than women, much as they are for color blindness. It's an empirical hypothesis, and isn't supposed to demean anyone.
I'm remembering Tart's post about the guy in the grocery store who insisted she smile...
And people give me shit for being "overweight" and not wearing makeup.
Can we ever win?
I can't make the men who do tell me how much prettier I'd be if... or who tell me to lose weight, etc apologize for being jerks, but I can make them look really stupid or frighten them, which tends to be somewhat theraputic.
There's no reason to feel bad about being angry both with men who think you're fresh meat and men who think you're too ugly for words (I used to think it was wrong to get angry and try to float in a zen-like calm. No more.)
None of this is to say that I don't feel insecure afterwards, but since I flare up, it's never where they can see it (I try not to let them see it get me down because to my mind, when the guy is trying to hurt you, there's no sense in rewarding it. Try just laughing at them.)
"I've actually had respectfully appreciative comments on my ass from strangers. They tell me, politely, that I have a nice behind, not using words with explicitly sexual connotations, and walk away promptly. I think it's the walking away that makes it respectful."
That seems weird to me, too, though, because - why? Are they trying to make you feel good, just, like to be nice? I guess, but I'd still rather not have people make some judgment on my ass one way or another.
Linnaeus - I should have used a qualifier, i.e. "relatively" common. I don't think all, most, or even a double-digit chunk of men suffer from ASD; I just think there may be a significant segment of the population that has that cognitive deficit, and need some help with it. I'm also aware that my normative assumptions are sometimes controversial, but that's a separate issue.
Also, I don't see that there's any definite line to draw between "normal" and those who have ASD.
Nato: Okay, now I understand better what you mean. Thanks.
I tend to get unnerved when I hear or read statements to the effect that some trait - which can be deemed as some sort of defect or is considered bad in a normative sense - is inborn. Not because I don't think it's impossible, but because as an historian, I've seen far too many instances in which such arguments are generally deployed to rationalize someone's norms or to defend a particular sociocultural hierarchy.
On responding to unsolicited negative comments about your appearance, I-can't-remember-who said, just this week, "Oh, thank God! I was afraid you were going to hit on me!"
My fave, so far.
I've been hit with both "nice tits" and "fat dyke".
I wonder if it's easier for me to deal with the latter from men because I don't really care if they find me sexually attractive (since I'm not shopping for a penis -- or anything else, for that matter).
I once had a gay-boy who I did not know come up to me on a nude-beach and say, in this very clinical way: "You have the ideal female body."
It was very odd, and I wasn't offended at the time (some little part of me went "Ooo! Someone approves of me!") -- but thinking back on it, I think it was another example of male privilege -- like somehow I was supposed to be complimented that this man who was not remotely interested in me sexually wanted to let me know that he approved of me anyway. The experience always perplexed me a bit, and now I'm going to look at it more deeply.
Some punk once made a snide remark to me as I was walking my dog one morning (pre-shower, hair in a baseball cap, etc.), and I said "Oh, dear, and I fixed myself up especially so that I could impress teenaged boys with their underwear showing."
Ha, Suzy, that was in a thread at Pandagon. I can't remember enough of what the post was about to search for it, but it was a good one.
PD - I like to compliment people on their appearance, especially if they've taken a risk, or have done something really appealing that may not be within the norm. Sometimes, of course, it's just a desire to support those who have a similar aesthetic to my own (If you have on Gripfast 10-eye boots, I feel compelled to share my approval). This is, of course, at least enabled by my position of privilege, but neither does it seem to me to be an abuse of it. I'd be saddened to discover it an unfortunate imposition, though I have no trouble admitting the possibility that it is.
I use the word "sad" a lot, it seems.
I tend to think it's nuture, not nature, that makes some men act the fool on this issue. The conditioning that causes men to think of women in terms of sex (as in could they do her) is powerful and deeply pervasive (also reinforced the entire time they're awake, whether they know it or not.) Trying to get out from under it is a total bear, not because no guy wants to, but because the system is designed to appeal to them and to be synonymous with their own feeling of competency. They do not suffer the same kinds of reminders that women do, so the change they perform is an act of will and a good thing.
There are times, when I deal with guys, where I can sense them struggling with that conditioning, and what they are actually trying to say is that they appreciate looking at me because I have made an effort or because they find me appealing (good) or they appreciate talking to me (better) or they respect what I've been doing (really better and at that point, I don't mind a more risque comment on my appearance, as long as I may repay it in kind.)
A truly foul mouth goes a long way toward insuring that a given man remembers his own vulnerability in the face of sexism.
I want to encourage that struggle, so those complimenters, even when they get it wrong, I try to acknowledge in a positive manner. Arguments from biology tend to discount the efforts men make to overcome what they are not necessarily reminded of, so I tend to be wary of them.
Nato -- I had no sense that he meant harm, and he probably meant it as a compliment. I didn't get any creepy read from him at all.
Maybe that's what it all comes down to -- the energy I sense behind the comment .
I have to say that I don't see that happening where I live now (in the San Francisco Bay Area)
Me, too! I was catcalled so much while living in Boston this summer that I felt uncomfortable in my skin and didn't want to go outside or walk past men on the street. It took a good two months living in SF to stop feeling scared and hunkered down inside my mind, and then one day I realized that I hadn't been yelled at one single time and that I'd gradually stopped bracing myself for harassment while walking to work every day. It was an amazing feeling to feel comfortable in my body again without feeling exposed to every jackass on the street.
Just to be clear - I don't intend anything like an "argument from biology" that men *can't* overcome privilege-enable antisocial tendencies - in a sense, I almost mean the opposite: if there is a biological factor complicating the improvement of socialization, then we want to tackle that as well, to ensure that those men *can*. Well, probably everyone *can*, if they're dedicated and tenacious, but there's no sense in not requiring a superhero. Some are capable of overcoming deficits without help, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't get any.
Further, patriarchal privilege masks the (notional) disability, so getting rid of the former helps identify the latter for more effective treatment and targeted help.
yuck.
i hope he did not pollute forever your caffeine haven. that would be evil.
your comeback is brilliant. i have nothing to add.
except another "yuck".
Nato:
complimenting someone on their outfit or awesome boots is ok. But complimenting a stranger on their BODY is *too personal* a comment. Know what I mean?
Just chiming in re: Seattle--I lived there for two years, and I had men "compliment" me on the street all the time. I guess sometimes it wasn't phrased in as threatening a manner as it could be (and sometimes was just baffling, like the guy who told me I was a "pleasantry" to look at!), but it definitely happened on a regular basis. I saw it as part of the generally more prevalent street culture in the PNW--more panhandling, more street kids, more people milling around--than I've seen in other areas.
Nato, I know they can, and I'm sure there's bound to be guys out there with autism, but I'm not sure it's widespread and I wanted to make sure that men who are honestly trying are not being belittled by being told they have a biological basis toward being insensitive.
Since I've been on the receiving end of arguments from biology (which I HATE), it flagged for me as a strong deterrent or discouragement in the face of effort, and I hate to discourage anyone from trying.
It's harder for me with church people than guys. I have to try hard not to argue for some kind of inherent evil or biological deficiency there.
Good day, o pleasantry Sweet Machine.
madaha - I would compliment people on their body, too, if I could feel confident that it would make them feel good about themselves, but I can't, so I don't. I guess that's the whole point.
"...there's no sense in not requiring a superhero."
Oops, one too many negatives.
"That seems weird to me, too, though, because - why? Are they trying to make you feel good, just, like to be nice? I guess, but I'd still rather not have people make some judgment on my ass one way or another."
I think that's what they're doing, yes. This might be partly cultural - I'm a Swede, and the body issues here are different (no nakedness taboo, really, for example, and very little sexualisation of nudity). It is much the same things as when they comment on my finacé's kilt (often with glance at his legs).
Lizard, I have both comments from the same man; compliments, and then a disparagement when I reject them.
In any case, they are not responding to me as a person, just some weird world of their own.
Truly, some people never negotiated adolescence successfully; and they remain stuck in its worst aspects.
Nato: yes, that's it exactly. What's personal to some may not be to others, so it's better to reserve those comments until you know them better.
So like these unbidden comments to poor Tart - it's presumptuous because weird dude ASSUMES that she is interested in his random opinion of her.
Also, I for one, like to go about my day feeling like I'm my own person, so when I get these comments it brings me back down to I'm "just a woman on display for the pleasure of men" and I feel belittled, because that's not how I see myself. Whether they say "nice hot ass" or "Smile!". I am not public property.
(but, obviously, if I know you, and you're my friend, you can compliment me all you want!)
Having grown up and lived in some really redneck towns and had to deal with cries of "Wooo, nice titties!" from passing pick-ups, the much lower key harassment in Seattle barely registers on my radar at all.
the funniest reactions are when you're apparently not supposed to hear the comments. I have a friend with H-cup breasts, and one night at a club some guy made a comment under his breath that she obviously wasn't supposed to hear, but there was a lull in the music. She turned around and said, "Thanks, I grew them myself." He turned bright scarlet and scurried off.
I've really found that an extended middle finger and "Eat a dick" tends to deflect most of the worst offenders.
*loving Sirriamnis from a hopefully non-creepy space*
that these people need an intervention
Ya. I believe a frontal lobotomy would just about do the trick. 
Lizard wins the prize for honesty and provoking thought.
Thanks Dan! That's a much better compliment than "Nice ass."
So I'm writing a book or three* with a female protagonist. It's feminist in theme, though I try to keep from bludgeoning the reader with it. One piece that's really important to me is that she not be traditionally attractive, because I hate how popular narratives only allow women to "kick ass" if they look like models. It's better than women only existing to be the objects of male heroics, but not much, since the "it's okay to kick ass if you're hot" narrative amounts to a discouraging, enervating trap.
So I have a quandary, not being Lois McMaster Bujold, of how to make young men and women regard her as a model they'd like to emulate/date/befriend while keeping a broad view of what makes a person (especially a female person) attractive. We can tell people all day long that "ugly" is socially constructed, but it would help a lot if we could *prove* it with our collective storytelling. Not by telling stories in which the ugly duckling turns into a swan, but rather, by telling stories in which the reader comes to see the duckling's beauty.
I think I'm about as friendly to sociobiology as any Shaker out there, but I still think we can significantly overcome whatever nebulous predilections with which our genes have saddled us. And if we do, we'll all be happier, more fulfilled people.
*or "novels", but without literary pretensions, because I'm not a very good writer.
Yes, Lizard, I think you're absolutely right. It is much harder to talk about the insults; it makes it harder to present the kind of online "face" we want to. And I suspect some people worry about seeming to confirm stereotypes about feminists, too - that we're ugly. It's insidious, this patriarchy.
Pizza Diavola: Really?!?! I live in what is basically an extension of Boston, and spend a lot of time in Boston itself, and I have the opposite reaction. When I lived in Santa Fe it would happen to me all the time as I walked down the street; it's never happened here. I came to the conclusion that it was simply much rarer here than there, but you obviously had a different experience.
Slightly off topic: On Christmas Eve in the Chicago airport, I was walking to my gate, worrying about a friend of mine with an unplanned pregnancy that she's not sure what she's going to do about, and I swear to god some asshole told me to smile. I was too taken aback to say anything, but I did give him the best "what the hell is wrong with you look" I'm capable of. I hope it did the trick.
btw - it would seem that every community has pockets of good and bad, though anecdotally the pockets of bad become more prevalent as one travels from northwest to southeast.
Strange question time! And this is two-fold...
1) If someone just gives you an admiring glance - I'm not talking "Ooo... *stare*" but just a momentary look; is that still offensive?
I freely admit, I'm occasionally guilty of being uhm... distracted by the female form. I do NOT however sit there and oogle people; nor do I come up and try to chat them up.
2) Is it weird if, as a guy, on the rare occasion I get one of 'those looks' from the female half of the species, I find it kinda... well a turn on?
Maybe its cause I'm NOT 'hawt' by any stretch. I'm overweight, out of shape, and due to a lot of reasons I haven't taken good care of myself. I freely admit to looking a bit haggard and worn down even at 24.
But I guess I'm kinda wondering, is there a particular line? Is it, by your estimation, kinda nice to get the occasional admiring glance (but not having someone stare at you or try to look down your shirt); or is it something you'd altogether wish didn't happen?
My only experience is as I noted before, in games; so you never really know who's looking at you - you only have to deal with people who actually chat you up. Thus its an area I'm... uncertain of.
Re: The Smile Police
A friend and I were sitting quietly in a hospital waiting room one day when some guy walking by told her 'You'd be even prettier if you smiled.'
She gave him her very best neutral face and replied 'I'd be even happier if I didn't have cancer. Now fuck off.'
I was so proud of her I could have burst.
whenever strangers tell me to smile, I tell them my mother just died. Shuts them right the fuck up.
Nato, I guess that I find non-traditionally beautiful characters attractive by their competence and general cool factor (which for me is composed of toughness, intelligence and a certain amount of wit.) Same thing is true of people. I think women who can fix shit and who have a few miles behind them are totally hot. If they've got the gift of blarney, I'm usually plotting future nudity within minutes. It's completely possible to have a competent, tough female character who is 4'1" and 250 lbs, whom I would find more attractive than a 5'6" character who was svelte and model-esque but couldn't find her ass with a map. Moreover, competency has a lasting appeal that pretty does not.
But that's my taste in pretty.
Besides, there are some seriously stocky women out there who could probably bench me without breaking a sweat and I ain't tiny. Skinny is not usually strong.
re: Smile police and deceased parents. One day at my old job--I had been back at work for a week or two after my mother committed suicide--my supervisor (who was fully aware of the situation) passed me in the hallway and said, "Smile! It can't be that bad!" I may have bored a hole in her skull with my stare.
As to creepy pervy dude, man it's times like that I wish I knew what sequence of blinks and twitches I could do to make someone spontaneously combust.
Oh, and @madaha, you should come through the Webster Tube to Alameda! I don't think our coffee shops are nearly as gawky-pervy.
Damn Vicster! I starting using that line on people when I came back to school after my grandmother died, but the people who said shit didn't KNOW.
You should have bored a hole in her skull with a power drill.
Betsy,
I think I jinxed myself by thinking about how I hadn't been catcalled or otherwise verbally harassed of late. I'm in Boston this week and while I was walking to dinner with some coworkers, a man whipped out his cameraphone and took a picture of me, then turned around and took a picture of a woman walking her dog. All the while, he was talking at my male colleagues about how he just likes women and how you know, getting a blow job from a man shouldn't be any different from getting one from a woman, except he's still just not cool with it and so he could never be gay and he REALLY LIKES BLOW JOBS FROM WOMEN HINT HINT WINK WINK.
I didn't know what to do--he seemed volatile and so I thought it would be better not to respond to him, but I wanted to break his phone and make him eat it. At what point does non-response become encouragement? I've already got a reputation as a cold, humorless, ballbusting bitch at work, though, so the fact that I was with coworkers made it worse.
Experiences vary by person, I think, is the bottom line. I've never been harassed in San Francisco (SF) and I was harassed on a regular basis in Boston, but the comments show that some people found SF much worse than Boston and vice versa.
mouthy - she's strong and smart and blah blah blah, though "witty" is limited to my abilities to portray same. That said, it's trash fantasy and she is at least some of the time a soldier, so she's built like an athlete. Really the daughters of a friend of mine were in my mind, as they were of a size to give anyone trouble in heavy traffic. As my fiancee (who is, as I mention above, in an Air Assault Army unit and thus fully familiar with soldiering) commented: "It would have been cool if she was petite or something, but yeah, big is a lot more realistic." This is a sort of problem because a girl (or boy) can't choose to grow up big any more than she can choose to grow up traditionally pretty, but at least it's competence-focused rather than entirely distal.
Anyway, I think we all have at least part of mouthyb's criteria of attractiveness; I just want to be a part of encouraging folks to cultivate that part and make it dominant. As she points out, competency has a lasting appeal that pretty does not.
BTW - "trash" in the sense that I'm no Octavia Butler or Candas Jane Dorsey, not that I'm satisfied with writing John Ringo-level garbage. My aspiration is Bujold, and I'll be happy if I can achieve, say, CJ Cherryh-level writing.
fuck i am so sorry tart. fuck i hate that. they open you up by complimenting you then slam! your being sexually harrassed. they see the smile disppear and the nauseous feeling you get when someone demeans you in that way. i hope you never see the bastard again.
jjohnson;
yes there is a particular line. the man in question first said to tart''you look especially nice today.'' that made tart feel good. not self conscious, and not defensive. after that he became more specific, and more preditory. that does not feel good. being that he did not know her, steering the conversation toward small talk, something non threatening would have been a better way to get to know her.
Nato:
When I say men might frequently have mild autism, I mean, beyond the socialized autism that passes for stoic or whatever.
Dude. Be careful here.
I've just found out that I likely have Asperger's, which is a form of autism. I don't like that word being bandied about so cavalierly, like all there is to autism is that it makes those with it into assholes. You don't know what its like.
Tart:
But if only the weird dudes say it out loud, ...
Right. Autistics are just weird. And sexist. Just like other crips, right?
Oh, that's right, I forgot that autistic people can't be feminists.
RachelPhilPa, sorry to hear that, though it's fortunate that any condition you have is mild enough to significantly delay diagnosis. Hopefully my other posts above explain my thoughts about ASD (or PDD in the US).
Also, it seems doubtful that Tart was referring specifically to autistic people when she was talking about "weird" - "antisocial tendencies" is a very broad category.
Tart: That sucks. Given that it's a San Diego beach town, I'm guessing the guy's been hit in the head with a surfboard a few too many times.
I get my own fair share of stares and rude/weird comments, too -- not because I'm a woman, but because I'm a Little Person who uses a wheelchair. They aren't generally sexual in nature (though I have gotten some very bizarre come-ons from both straight women and gay men over the years), and I won't pretend that they're the same as what women have to put up with, but I like to think they help me understand what The Gaze is all about.
though it's fortunate that any condition you have is mild enough to significantly delay diagnosis.
Well, thank you very much for your input, Mr. Expert. I'm glad to have your "only mildly defective" stamp of approval.
my husband has a mild form of aspergers. for him it's like an exaggerated sense of not getting subtle emotional undertones. not understanding when someone is using satire. being unable to read people or judge character. the spectrum is very broad on this. i have seen lots worse and more debilitating forms of autism. people with communication disorders can have their intentions misunderstood easily. men are much more likely to have aspergers or autism than women, and so far we do not know why.
That guy was a real jerk. The best thing to do is tell him to get lost. But how do you go from that one encounter to the conclusion that your body is viewed as public property by much of the population? He didn't touch you did he? Obviously that in and of itself meant he knew you weren't public proptery. Suppose you are sitting in a cafe and a guy notices you. Later that evening in the privacy of his own home he masturbates while he thinks of you. Does that make you public property? Of course it doesn't. If you hold it does, than you are committing yourself to the proposition that over 80% of the adult population (both male and female) see other people (both men and women) as public property.
The guy was a jerk. Leave it at that. Most people do not do what he did. Worst of all whining about it as though it were a real threat minimizes the real problems women face in the world. It is like the boy who cried wolf, people close off their minds.
The Quilter -- There is not enough STFU in the world for you.
Worst of all whining about it as though it were a real threat minimizes the real problems women face in the world. It is like the boy who cried wolf, people close off their minds.
What a bunch of baloney. It's all part of the system designed to keep women in fear.
Quilter is the worst type of concern troll. The stupid kind.
Replying to Jack Goff, I don't think most women would have found that threatening. Of course I live in a large city (Toronto) of about 3 million people. When you have so many people you are bound to meet more whack jobs. Hence perhaps it seems less threatening to women here. Walking through an underground garage in the middle of the night causes fear, not a guy making a stupid comment in the middle of the day in a coffee shop where other people are present.
I am not saying this guy was a peach, but I doubt he was violent either. He certainly was expressing a sexual interest but he also seemed to repsect consent in that he did not continue to force himself on her. Lots of people like to have sex with someone they have just met and there is nothing threatening about that. You don't know if someone is going to consent if you don't ask. It doesn't seem right to equate an expression of sexual interest (between adults) as a threat as long as the person leaves you alone when you say "no".
RachelPhilPa, I'm not sure why you're so upset, but I think you must have significantly misconstrued what both Tart and I intended to communicate, which has nothing to do with belittling those with ASD. That those who behave like the guy in the post have earned censure is really unrelated to the likelihood that he had some sort of ASD. Now, if him having ASD was a contributing factor, then an intervention on that basis would be helpful, but it is the behavior and not the ASD that is the problem.
Also note that I said "...any condition you have..." I do not presume you have any condition, since your original response merely states that it's likely that you do. It's true that "I don't know what it's like", but I'm a little confused as to whether you know what it's like, either, if you are as of yet uncertain as to whether you truly have Asperger's Disorder. This is far from implying that you are necessarily "defective" in any way.
Quilter, I don't feel you've taken the original narrative very seriously.
"Walking through an underground garage in the middle of the night causes fear, not a guy making a stupid comment in the middle of the day in a coffee shop where other people are present."
This is not a bad pick up line from someone random at a bar. The guy had been watching her for a while, and intimated that she had cause to conform to his preferences. Finally, apparent inability to detect the inappropriateness of his commentary suggested he had mental problems of unknown depth. It's entirely wise to be worried about the encounter.
I invite you to reconsider.
Walking through an underground garage in the middle of the night causes fear, not a guy making a stupid comment in the middle of the day in a coffee shop where other people are present.
Completely false dichotomy.
complimenting someone on their outfit or awesome boots is ok. But complimenting a stranger on their BODY is *too personal* a comment. Know what I mean?
madaha | 01.10.08 - 5:21 pm
Precisely. For that reason, I only compliment on clothes/shoes/accessories (hair is a grey area). Sometimes when I say "hey, that shirt is really cool", I mean "that shirt looks good on your body". To say that would be way out of line -- it's really not my place to make evaluations.
I'd like to thank Quilter for explaining to us lowly muddleheaded females what we can legitimately find offensive and threatening and what we can not. Because having our bodies and persons commented upon as if they were public property is something that has *never, ever* happened to any of us. Because Tart's experience is totally *not* representative of a much larger and deeper truth that all of us have experienced. That guy was just one bad apple, so we should all just quit our whining. God, don't we dumb whining feminists realize how dumb we make ourselves look when we whine about things that just can't be true (according to Quilter)!?
You're right, Rumblelizard! And there's absolutely NO connection between being scared of walking alone in the dark and being informed that strangers have been watching you closely enough to develop specific demands about how you should appear and what you should do! How have we all been so blind?
I'm one of the ones who doesn't get noticed too often in public (or if I do, I don't notice them noticing, which I suppose counts). When I do get noticed, it's more likely to be a comment from a twit who's drunk enough to have lost all possible inhibitions, or a honk from a hoon driving past in his dick-enhancer doof-doof car with his mates. My own take on those is the idiots in question are likely to have said this to anyone wandering past with the right anatomical configuration - I could be a seven foot tall drag queen in full makeup, and they'd make the same damn remark. It's not a compliment. It isn't personal, either.
My usual response, if I've noticed someone noticing me (which is rare) is to just ignore them. They aren't talking to me, after all - they're talking to their hormones. If they become persistent, I'll usually just give them a Look (I try to start with the one which says "do you have any idea how damn stupid you sound?" and work up from there) and carry on with whatever I was doing. Then again, if someone's got to the point where I'm actually noticing them, they're being really obvious and really crude about it, because I have social blindness issues out the wazoo.
(Oh, PS context: Australian, female, overweight, big tits, 36 years old).
Here's some more whining, Quilter ...
One of the things I hate about the sort of behavior encountered by tart is how it chips away at my eroding sense of personal security. Much as I wish it weren't, I have taken to heart the message that I bear the bulk of the responsibility for my own safety (i.e., it's up to me to avoid getting assaulted/raped vs. men should avoid assaulting/raping women). As a part of that fear culture, I have to be careful about where I go, with whom, and how I present myself. As another part of that wonderful fear culture, my sense of a "safe place," e.g., a coffee house where I could sit, read, and think, without concern about others, can easily be disturbed or even destroyed by a few comments from a creep.
We most all have these experiences. Just trying to enjoy the beach with a book? beeep! You're out! Sit on a bench with a book to enjoy the park and the little birdies? beeep! You're out! Sit in a bookstore with a book? beeep! You're out! Since when does a book = come hither?
It is entitlement, and it sucks to be the unentitled.
But how do you go from that one encounter to the conclusion that your body is viewed as public property by much of the population?
Okay, let's see if I can slow down the reasoning for The Quilter, and anyone else who needs the small words and short sentences version.
1] The man in question has been watching SomeWateryTart for some time (implied by the following: There's a cafe I go to often, to read and have some decent coffee, during which visits I have noticed a certain guy looking at me.)
2] Today, this behaviour intensified (implied by: I always figured he just had a staring problem, until today when he finally spoke to me.)
3] The intensification of this behaviour took the form of statements which implied she chose her clothes for his viewing pleasure. (For example: "You look really nice today. I mean, you always look nice when I see you in here, but you've outdone yourself today.")
4] This man then continued to act as though her choices were made solely for him ("Yeah, I like the dress look.")
5] He then carried on by giving instructions on how he could be better pleased ("But next time you should do some different shoes. Some spiky heels or something hot. I'd like to see that, too.")
6] He didn't acknowledge there was a possibility of his behaviour being unacceptable until offense had been caused. ("Yeah. I don't mean to be offensive.")
7] Most importantly: nobody else has stopped any of his offensive behaviours. Not the staring, not the comments, not the rudeness.
8] Some people, such as The Quilter's good self, would tend to regard such an incident as being "minor", and/or the fault of the woman who has been the focus of such rudeness.
9] A similar incident occurring to someone who was male (for example, being the focus of comments from a homosexual male, or a heterosexual female) would be treated as a major social blunder.
10] That such behaviour is apparently "acceptable" if a man is doing it to a woman implies a very clear social status difference between the male and female bodies in the public eye.
11] A similar social relationship occurs in the distinction between private and public property, where damaging private property is regarded as a major transgression, but damaging public property is "only to be expected".
12] Ergo, it is likely that the female body is regarded as being "public property" by a large section of the population.
I do hope that makes things clear.
Worst of all whining about it as though it were a real threat minimizes the real problems women face in the world.
Which "real problems"? If you're talking about such things as: pervasive sexism; the assumption of masculine ownership of any given feminine body; the assumption of any given female body existing only for the sexual amusement of any male observer; the assumption of the only genuine occupation for a female person being to satisfy the demands of a male person; then this particular incident is an excellent example of the tip of a much larger iceberg. Below the waterline of this iceberg are such things as stalking, sexual harassment, rape, spousal abuse, murder and similar, all triggered by the assumption that the only legitimate role for any woman is as property of a man.
"...in his dick-enhancer doof-doof car ..."
Meg Thornton, you rock. I think doof-doof car has just entered my lexicon forever.
I tend to not get upset if someone says something like, "Wow, that's a nice dress" or "That's a really great color on you." But when, like what happened with Tart, they start instructing me on what I could wear to become more sexually attractive to them... that does cross a line.
How much you wanna bet that quilter would also say, "Well, the guy shouldn't have raped her, but she should have known better than to be all drunk at that bar in that short skirt."
For one, I think I've been as privileged as anyone, and even on my worst days I wouldn't ever have said anything like that.
Nato, you did just that in the very comment I am quoting.
Nato, you are acting like The Quilter. I request that you consider your positions.
Hi Nato, Meg and Lizaed!
I read your comments very carefully and took time to consider them. You did give me a lot to think about. The first thing I was thinking is that the problem with reading about a situation on the internet is that you don't get the whole story. For example, Nato rightly pointed out that this guy had been staring at Tart for a while, and that is pretty creepy. This is true and of course being Tart was there and we weren't only she can say if she was getting a gut feeling that there was something menacing about his staring. But I don't think she did, because when he did come up to talk to her, she described the frist part of the conversation as nice, that he complimented her on how nice she looked today.
Tart then described how the conversation turned ugly when he told her what things she could do to change her appearance to please him. In a later post she said that this guy came out and said what she could do. She wondered how many men were silently thinking what this guy was saying.
First of all I don't think the guy has mental problems. The line would be set pretty low for mental problems if everyone who was obnoxious qualified. The guy was clearly obnoxious. He approached her because he wanted to have sex with her and he thought his topic of conversation was the gateway. Asking someone to wear something is not treating them as personal propert especially when you recognize it is their choice whether to comply with your request or not. That is viewing the other person as having the right to say "no".
The thing that troubled me about Tart's comment, that many men were probably thinking what he was saying, is that lots of people fantasize sexually about people they meet in their travels about the day. Women do it too. That does not mean anyone views anyone as property. If a man is fantasizing about Tart wearing pointy high heeled shoes and he says nothing to her and we consider that thought as reducing her to his property, then this would not be a gender specific crime. You would be stuck with the conclusion, that when it comes to sex most people regard others as their "personal property".
Meg has made a good point when she talks about feelings that her personal safety is not taken as seriously as it should be society. You are right, Meg, that is true. If in Tart's case, after the guy was told to get lost he kept staring or even followed her, it would mean she would have to find a new cafe, when she was not the one who did anything wrong. That is not right, and currently things show no signs of changing. I am not sure how we can change that, but I hope we do.
Take Care
"For one, I think I've been as privileged as anyone, and even on my worst days I wouldn't ever have said anything like that.
Nato, you did just that in the very comment I am quoting.
Nato, you are acting like The Quilter. I request that you consider your positions.
Aesmael"
Huh? I told someone that I'd been watching them for a while and wanted them to do something for me? Or did you mean that I somehow offended you? If so, please share how, or I'm fairly certain to offend you in the future.
"...many men were probably thinking what he was saying, is that lots of people fantasize sexually about people they meet in their travels about the day"
Quilter, I think this exemplifies the disconnect in this conversation. The problem is not whether men fantasize (or let on that they fantasize), the problem is the unstated assumptions about Tart's role in the world: independent person versus actor on his personal stage. It's the underlying assumption that creates the worry about mental illness, not the social awkwardness of blurting out something obnoxious. If the guy's comment about spiky heels was immediately followed by a "holy crap I can't believe I just said that" or even a cognitively dissonant "I'm angry that you got offended because I have a right to be a dickhead" moment rather than a "what? what did I say?" moment, then we could say that he's merely a run of the mill awkward guy/asshole. The lack of comprehension, however, is truly frightening, and bespeaks serious issues to me. We may not agree on that point, but that's my reasoning.
And sure, one might wait to see if they guy actually starts stalking her to figure out if he was a potential stalker, but I think it's entirely reasonable to identify him as high risk.
i just want to respond to jjohnson's question and say that in fact, i think there is a fine line to be walked, and the problem is that (in my experience) many men don't know how to walk it. it's all in body language and timing - an extra second and a slight shift in posture can shift what is a barely noticeable appreciative glance into a full-on leer.
kate.d. - While I agree, I wish such slight shifts didn't determine so much, because many men will throw up their hands and say women are inscrutable. The fundamental issue, I think, is that the de-facto sex segregation that still prevails in our society results in differing non-vocal grammars and lexicons. Then, because men are privileged, they don't feel the need to learn the female non-vocal grammars and lexicons, whereas women tend to make an effort and expect some reciprocation.
*Melissa, I guess I'm just skeptical that privilege can do that much damage to a person's cognitive abilities.*
Let me help you out -- you're clearly privileged enough that you don't realize that you're being insensitive to autistics.
Is this sinking in yet? Good.
Innocent bewilderment is unbecoming, Nato.
I mean precisely that you said although you are privileged your privilege has never led you to say anything so awful, yet in that very comment you dripped with privileged condescension toward autistic people. That you do not seem to realise how offensive it is to suggest that many men express such attitudes because they have a mild case of autism is, frankly, rather distressing.
You may be skeptical that privilege can so severely damage a person's cognitive abilities but you are doing a job of demonstrating yourself mistaken in that.
I do not want your pity. I want you to stop spreading and believing such awful ideas about people like myself.
Aesmael, what ideas do you think I'm spreading about people like yourself? I can only presume you have ASD, and that you percieve me to be saying that people with ASD are jerks, or something to that effect. If that correct, then the case is backwards - rather, I was saying that many of the people who behave with serious incomprehension of their impact on others may suffer from an undiagnosed ASD-like condition. I am not sure why this would demean ASD-sufferers who are not jerks. Further, the pity I expressed above was for people who *are* jerks and would have a very difficult time overcoming that because they're not getting any help. To borrow from Melissa, "If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it."
We would like to help you understand, but you seem to be repeating yourself and not listening. Perhaps you have some kind of cognitive deficit?
For all your polite phrasing, you are saying you think autism a likely contributer to the gross insensitivity displayed by so many men, yet you yourself are displaying a similar insensitivity toward a marginalised group of people here, claiming them as an explanation for an undefined amount of sexist, jerky behaviour. Unless you are claiming to be on the spectrum yourself?
Although you explicitly disclaim doing so, you still are making the connection "autism => insensitive creep" and perpetuating that stereotype. You claim not to be pitying in general yet you still condescend, still give away the position that people must be adjusted to fit in to society in order to be happy, still apply the term "suffer" to those on the autism spectrum.
This is NOT specifically autistic behaviour. I have seen it many times with people unaware of their privilege, and when others attempt to call them on it. It is a common human failing and suggesting that a particular subset of people does it because their brains are broken does not at all help.
I am a feminist because I recognize the fact that my body is viewed as public property by much of the population, and this cannot possibly be a good thing.
Well, actually women who are sane and live in other nations appreciate, and like it when men view them as someone to admire in public.
To those women it is a good thing.
If you want to not have men make comments like that, don't worry.
By the time you are in your late 30's you will have become invisible to most men and all of that attention that you are ungrateful for now will disappear.
Forever.
I don't know one women in the U.S.A. who was able to appreciate the attention she got from men when she was young attractive and at her most desireable. Not one woman here appreciates it, and THEN when the get older and the men move on they get all angry and pissy.
Truly, the women in the U.S.A. are just the most eff'd up women on this planet.
The dating life, emotional and psychological life is the worst in the world here. But that's for another post.
-DA
Dr. Dipshit strikes again.
"Well, actually women who are sane and live in other nations appreciate, and like it when men view them as someone to admire in public."
Funny how Dr. Dipshit thinks that telling a woman you don't know, have never talked to, have no connection with, but have been staring at, how she can be more pleasing to you, is "admiring" them.
Nothing assinine and blind there.
Truly, the men in the U.S.A. who think like DA are just the most eff'd up men on this planet.
Fixed your typos.
Nato and Quilter: When one finds oneself in a hole, the first thing one should do is quit digging.
As for Fake Amneus, I wish he'd quit breaking his inflatable girlfriends so he'd have something else to relieve his boredom. It might help if that selfish jerk Mickey Kaus would share his goats with Fake Amneus. 
Again, IP maskers should be outlawed and their use punished by being forced to listen to Shatner records.
"...still give away the position that people must be adjusted to fit in to society in order to be happy."
Yes, *this* is a controversial claim, and I alluded to that earlier when I said "I'm also aware that my normative assumptions are sometimes controversial, but that's a separate issue." If you would like to address that, I'd be happy to do so, and the are ways in which my position is very tentative. If you're interested in any sort of constructive discussion on that, I'd be happy to have one. If I'm required to pretend that having ASD does not involve cognitive deficits (as well as advantages, at times), and that those deficits don't make social living more difficult, then there's a problem with the discussion from the start.
"you still are making the connection "autism => insensitive creep" and perpetuating that stereotype"
Well, you are certainly interpreting it that way. Of course, I could also say chemical imbalance => insensitive creep. In my own life I've encountered lots of people who seemed downright evil, but whom turned out to be suffering from serious, untreated chemical imbalances. Once treated, it was clear that actions that I previously couldn't see as anything but the product of a malevolent personality really came from violent, uncontrollable mood swings.
But chemical imbalance => insensitive jerk isn't anything like always true. My fiancee has fairly serious recurring imbalances, but mostly manages to overcome them with respect to her treatment of others. That doesn't change the fact that chemical imbalances, especially undiagnosed ones, can cause some seriously messed-up behavior.
Is my proposed analogy with undiagnosed ASD valid? Perhaps, perhaps not, but I don't think it's a smear on autistic people to propose it. I understand one does not want to be associated with people who behave badly - I'm a (relatively) rich white male, so I get a lot of practice - but neither do I take it personally when people talk about what undiagnosed privilege can do to rich white males. I don't feel I've said anything that anyone dyslexic should take personally, unless they feel that having ASD licenses them to behave like the man referenced in the original post. Since I don't think that applies to any of my interlocutors, then we should be fine.
As an aside, though I have been diagnosed with dyslexia and ADD, I've never been identified as having ASD/PDD.
Ivory Bill Woodpecker - into what hole do you believe I have dug myself?
Holy crap, that's creepy.
Sometimes I wonder if it's just common for men to have some sort of mild autism.
Nato | Homepage | 01.10.08 - 1:54 pm | #
Wow. That is stunningly hate-filled and sexist.
I suppose if one defines 'Normal' as a 24 year old female, then we could go about pathologising the behavior of most men.
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"Is my proposed analogy with undiagnosed ASD valid? Perhaps, perhaps not, but I don't think it's a smear on autistic people to propose it. I understand one does not want to be associated with people who behave badly"
How is it not?
You are implying that acting that way is characteristic of mild autism.
I am an autistic woman who has suffered terribly at the hands of people like that. My autistic traits make me *less* like them, not more.
"RachelPhilPa, sorry to hear that, though it's fortunate that any condition you have is mild enough to significantly delay diagnosis. Hopefully my other posts above explain my thoughts about ASD (or PDD in the US)."
I can't speak for RachelPhilPa, but for myself, I'm not 'sorry' that I'm autistic, nor do I feel 'fortunate' that I'm mildly affected. I don't have the basic assumption you seem to have that autism is a bad thing. I don't consider myself any better or worse in my neurological makeup than normal or severely autistic people (although some aspects of severe autism can be bad, the condition as a whole isn't, from what I gather from spending time with people like that). To me, a statement like that would feel to me like someone saying 'well, at least you're only slightly inferior to normal people.'
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