Ok, I'm nitpicking here, but I can't see that I'd call haggling over price mistreatment. It's a commercial transaction, like it or not, why shouldn't they haggle?
Just got home & able to catch up on this. What a clusterfucktastrophe on so many levels. I've no trouble believing he did it; power corrupts. But I can't believe he thought he would get away with it, and I can't believe he drug his poor wife out there for the presser (she looked like she'd only just found out herself). I wish she'd told him to shove it, but she apparently knows a hell of a lot more about loyalty than he does.
He simply must resign over this.
I tend to disagree, Jay. This particular commercial transaction almost always involves a serious imbalance of power between the parties, and more so when he has the ability to threaten her with jail. If the trade were legal and open, and both had the ability to walk away from negotiations without repercussions, then maybe. But as prostitution exists in the US, it's very exploitative of the workers, so yes, haggling over price can be abusive.
Yes to nightshift66, but even if you do take Doctor Jay's interpretation as entirely commercial, he was haggling not just over price but over the method of payment. It reads like he wanted to set up a continual tab that he could pre-pay or post-pay anytime he felt like it, which ran counter to the standard M.O. of the brothel/ring/whatever it's called. That suggests a sense of entitlement even beyond the norm, that he shouldn't have to play by their rules.
I see your point, nightshift. I just read the relevant portions of the complaint. It didn't seem like haggling to me. There was discussion of a deposit, for the future, which seems particularly odd. I don't know what to make of it, or the "so this doesn't happen again", business. And the negotiations were not with the prostitute in question but with Temeka, who is also in a position of some weakness, but not as much as Kristen.
Furthermore, the negotiation, if there was one, took place before the fact. Where the prostitute is less vulnerable, since if she declines to participate, there is no crime. She is most vulnerable afterwards. I would view negotiations there more unfavorably.
The 'stuff that's not safe' does seem like unprotected sex, or maybe anal, or whatever. Not a good reflection on him, but it was only Temeko saying "I heard he might ask ..." I can't say that says much.
I don't think he should have seen a prostitute, since I think marriage means something. And I don't think this goes into the "rape is impossible if she's wearing jeans" misogyny bucket.
car, your remark just clarified it for me. It seems that the service requires a deposit, in cash, before they will send the girl out, especially on a trip. Which makes sense.
Coming up with the cash is a major problem for the customer, it requires a personal trip to the bank. So can I pay you for this time AND give you a deposit for next time at the same time is logical. Maybe that's entitlement, I don't think I can judge, since the whole situation is way outside my personal experience.
Why does this have to be conflated with women's rights?
Isn't it more about the dishonesty?
Spitzer has consistently misstepped since he entered office. He is ardent, liberal, zealous (over) and just what NY needed after Pataki. People were so excited and then he started to make serious management mistakes. This is one of them and it has hypocrisy written large. I write about Mike Bloomberg as Governor.
Why does this have to be conflated with women's rights?
Hi, have we met? I'm Feminism.
I love the QC of FM!
Mike Bloomberg might actually make a good NY governor...
Please, no Bloomberg again.
David Paterson, the Lt. Gov., will be governor. And he's pro-LGBT (up to and including full marriage rights), has openly gay staffers, was the first African-American to serve in a Legislative leadership position in New York, as well as the first African-American lt. gov., is committed to issues of women (including domestic violence), minorities and people with disabilities.
Oh, and did I mention he's legally blind?
Hi, have we met? I'm Feminism.
Melissa McEwan | Homepage | 03.10.08 - 6:11 pm | #
Sexual exploitation almost always is a women's rights issue. See also: pay inequity, reproductive rights, dieting, educational opportunities, etc.
Ok, this is one area I just. do. not get. about. men. I mean, I feel that I have a pretty healthy libido, but how can someone who ought to know better (e.g. a former Attorney General who prosecuted this type of thing) possibly think that a few minutes or hour or whatever of pleasure is worth ruining his career and family? Is it the thrill of possibly getting caught? Pure stupidity.
This is definitely disappointing. I really liked Spitzer alot, even though he'd never have directly affected me. He just seemed like a genuine politician for a change...
And then this. *sigh* *puts on cynicism cap*
zuzu | Homepage | 03.10.08 - 6:59 pm | #
Wow... thats pretty darn cool. At least it sounds like the state will be in good hands then!
Hi, have we met? I'm Feminism.
Hi! I understand that you're angry, hate men, and lack a sense of humor. :P
As for the "negotiations"...having never secured the services of a prostitute, I'm not entirely sure what the protocol is, but it's pretty clear from the transcript that Spitzer wasn't a first-time customer, and had developed a reputation for being demanding about things such as unprotected sex, which, for a sex worker, is kind of a major deal, given the potential consequences. It takes a particular type of chutzpah to make that sort of demand, and a particular blindness to the fact that you're engaged in a transaction that involves intimate contact with another human being.
Of course, prostitution runs on the pretense that prostitutes are objects, not people. When you're shown to be abnormally attuned to that, well, that's pretty damn scummy.
Spitzer will need to account for this to his family. He will need to account for this before the law. He will need to account for this to the people of New York, as he's betrayed their trust by violating the law he swore to uphold, and he will need to account for this, truly account for this, to himself. That accounting may not be pretty, and he will lose a lot. Hopefully, when he comes out on the other side, he'll be a better human being than he is right now. But right now, he's got to deal with the consequences of his actions. And that means he needs to resign, sooner rather than later.
I understand the underlying point. But haggling down to $4000 an hour seems a bit outside the realm of mistreatment. Sleazy? Yes. Power play, possibly. Behaving as if entitled? Sure. But there was no brothel (the women apparently were flown around the world to clients in Vegas, London, etc.) and the rates were up to $5500 an hour. Rates don't make the underlying situation any better, but "treating them poorly" seems a bit strong on this count (unsafe sex or dangerous sex acts are a different matter, I don't know if there is anything on that front).
Finally, the pre-payment was, I assume, an effort to prevent remain discrete and take care of the finances for a later "date" at the same time as the one in question. That is, it strikes me more as a planning thing.
I feel awful for his wife and family. And I didn't think it was classy at all to have her up there with him during his "apology."
I did not have anything invested in Spitzer. His hypocrisy is but another stacked upon many.
What I'd like to know is when the wives, family and prostitutes will stop being hypocrites as well.
Spitzer gets caught, apologizes, sobs a few times, says whatever blah blah blah, everyone pretends everything is okey dokey and it happens again and again. Same old same old. Been happening for thousands of years now.
Shit how many sex scandals have we had in just the last 7 years? What did all the spouses do? Pretend everything was okey dokey.
Nothing is going to change until the soldiering on for a false image is rejected.
It takes a particular type of chutzpah to make that sort of demand, and a particular blindness to the fact that you're engaged in a transaction that involves intimate contact with another human being.
Not to mention a particular contempt for the health of your wife, presuming they were still intimate.
"treating them poorly" seems a bit strong on this count
So...you're acquiescing that he was "behaving as if entitled" (full concept: behaving as if entitled to their bodies), but think that "treating them poorly" is an overstatement?
Sorry, but only in a very fucked up world is the description of someone acting entitled to another person's body as "treating that person poorly" considered anything but the pleasant euphemism it is.
I am blinded with fury about all of this. I can't even see straight to read these comments and the line-splits within them. This is so wrong on so many levels. F*cking wrong. Wrong f*cking.
I still do not understand the wives of husbands who are caught. Let them go to the damn pressers by themselves and suffer the consequences.
I still do not understand the wives of husbands who are caught. Let them go to the damn pressers by themselves and suffer the consequences.
I don't blame them. It has to be an impossible situation. I imagine this blindsided her, and she still doesn't know what this means for herself, for her future, for her marriage.
Asking your spouse to do that for you, though, is awful, and another sin Spitzer will have to atone for.
And incidentally, open message to all politicians: nobody's fooled by the presence of your spouse into thinking your infidelity is meaningless. Please, stop hurting others. Thank you.
Ok, this is one area I just. do. not get. about. men.
I'm with you, I think it's all about entitlement, and I'm glad he's going to suffer for it. Presuming his wife had not in some way agreed to his excursions (which seems highly unlikely, but is always possible), and noting her apparent intelligence and independent resources, I'll be interested to see if he is indeed forgiven, and familial trust restored.
People Magazine should have an update for us in about a year. I hope his family is doing OK by then, no matter what they decide about him.
@ abjectfunk -- you seem to think the sex workers get all the cash from the john. Clearly, there was a whole crew of pimps involved looking for their cut as well, and usually they did not let the woman ("the model") even handle the money. Several of the comments in this thread (see: Dr Jay) are all focused on the mechanics of the process, as though there is somehow a "good" way to negotiate with a pimp for a woman's body, if you just do it tastefully enough. Um, no.
First off let me say that I agree with most of the above. The guy is a hypocritical asshole without doubt. But, that said, as I understand there was a Fed. wiretap in so do you think this would have been fed to the press if our asswipe had been a Republican?
(If you do I got a bridge for sale.)
Ok, this is one area I just. do. not get. about. men.
I've gotta admit, I'm with you; honest to the ceiling cat, but isn't masturbation cheaper and less politically troublesome? Not to mention not breaking your vows with your spouse and not dragging some poor person through the hell that is the life of the typical prostitute?
I do think the men who buy sex services are engaging in pure entitlement at its worst. It almost has to be more about power than sex; no sex on earth is worth $5500 an hour. At its best, its priceless and irreplaceable, but that's something different altogether.
I dunno, Susan.
I'm not sure trust can ever be restored. I do think it's possible for the marriage to go on, but I'm not sure that it can ever be the same. Especially when the violation of trust has been so blatant and so repeated as this.
The more I see of marriages at high political levels the more they seem to be alliances of interests, not personal relationships at all. Under those rules the presence of the wife at the obligatory "I'm so sorry" presser is more understandable. It's just part of the contract.
I would say from Mrs. Spitzer's face at today's appearance that she had not read all the fine print or, more likely, some new clauses had been slipped in when she wasn't looking.
I'll jump back in, as some very good points have been made.
First, when I said "entitled" I did not mean "to their bodies," but that is a fair imputation to make and one I did not consider. Clearly those who pay for sex are de facto accepting a transaction that results in the use of someone else's body in exchange for cash, and I should no have let that go unmentioned.
I meant "entitled" as in, he was paying a lot of money and, in a weird way, people who have lots of money tend to think that they should pay less for things and often try to introduce power relations (nevermind the already existing power relations in a prostitution setting) into any and all personal interactions. People with power tend to push the social envelope in all situations because, well, they get off on the power, not the money or anything else that they have plenty of. That was what I meant, but Melissa's point is well taken.
As for the transactional nature, I brought it up because the facts are important (no brother, high price call girls, not sex slaves so far as I can tell). You may call this a difference in kind or of degree, but I think it matters.
Finally, and I will tread lightly here so please give me the benefit of the doubt and entertain my point before bashing me....Prostitution in some cases is what people (men and women) do to make money. I am not certain that it is always against the prostitutes self-interest to engage in the trade. And to explain what I mean, try this example:
Some people are convinced that it is always irrational for a woman to choose to have an abortion...she simply isn't "thinking right" if that is what she chooses. I of course strongly disagree with this and feel that the woman should be in control of her body.
Genuine question: Is it the case that a person who engages in prostitution must always be exploited or acting irrationally? If not, under what circumstances would being a call girl/call boy qualify as both self-interested and rational? Can a person be a prostitute and still legitimately claim to have control over her or his body?
Feedback please.
Jeff,
The number of wives that pretend everything is fine and dandy just blows my mind. They go out for pressers, smile and stand like a statue it all blows overs. The guy thinks he is all that.
Just once I'd love to see a wife cold cock the SOB in public and tear his ass up verbally in front of everyone and let the kids have their say too. It would be more natural. Nope the false image of screw up prevails and history repeats itself again and again.
Just once I'd love to see a wife cold cock the SOB in public and tear his ass up verbally in front of everyone and let the kids have their say too.
Don't get me wrong, I would too. But I think numbness is natural for some people, too, or dissociation, or a hope that it can all be put away somehow. She's a victim too, and until we're in her shoes, we can't know how we'd react.
I meant brothel, not brother. Sorry for any weirdness that particular typo, er, injected into my earlier post.
I think what's making me the most angry, right now, is the fact that this turns into an indictment of the politician's wife. She should have left him. She shouldn't be at the press conference. She should get angry and LEAVE HIS ASS! She should stand by her man, how could she stand by her man, she must be frigid, she must be power-hungry, she must be stupid, she must be gay. Oh, and REMEMBER THE CLENIS HOW DARE HRC REMIND US OF THAT, SHOWING HER FACE IN PUBLIC AND ALL.* Spitzer broke the law something fierce, in a way that was probably (though not guaranteed to have been) exploitative of women. To turn that into more woman hating makes me so angry I'm a little nauseous.
*New Clinton Rule, y'all! No discussion of a public figure's infidelity is allowed without a discussion of why Hillary is such a buzz-kill, dudez!
this is good news, this bum Spitzer was good friends with the abortion cartel. He wanted to legalize abortion (for any reason) in all 9 months of pregnancy.
I should clarify about my comment, I made the mistake of watching CNN earlier. Which explains at least some of the anger.
pocochina | Homepage | 03.10.08 - 10:54 pm | #
Nope, anger is justified, even if you haven't been watching CNN, although that makes it more likely.
This was Elliot Spitzer's mistake, his lie, his violation of the law. His wife, his children -- he victimized them, too, though I doubt that's really sunk in for him yet. They shouldn't be victimized further. The only thing I'll say about Spitzer's wife is that she shouldn't have been paraded out today -- but that's not on her. Spitzer shouldn't have asked that. He didn't deserve it.
Abject Funk,
The act of prostitution is about selling one's body for use by another for a specific period of time at a specific price.
Not all have control have over the use of their body. Much depends on the seller, buyer, prostitute knowing how to asses a situation, kill, disable and defending his/herself and environment.
What I'd like to know is when the wives, family and prostitutes will stop being hypocrites as well.
okay, i read your second comment silver owl, and i get what you are saying, i think. but this comment smacks of victim-blaming to me. and that is not okay.
spitzer's wife has probably just been handed the worst news of her life. i know that when it was me (not this news, but something equally, though differently awful) i was running on auto-pilot, and a big part of keeping myself together was trying to pretend that everything could just go back to "the way it was". even if the spitzers had an "arrangement", details of her marriage that she never thought would be public are suddenly all over the news, through no fault of hers.
the wife and family are NOT hypocrites -- they are handling this mess. i don't think that spitzer should have asked her to be out there at the presser, but again, that's not her fault. i refuse to judge a woman who is probably in shock.
I'm a little surprised by the anger directed at his wife. Don't the wedding vows say that the husband and wife are to be at each other's side through thick and thin, through good times and bad times? If his wife didn't rush to a court to file for divorce the moment she found out, she's a hypocrite, irrational and a traitor to women's cause? Seems to me that there's not much emphasis on forgiveness and acceptance of someone's mistake within a relationship, and if someone does that, she's a traitor. I guess your partners are picture perfect who don't make even a single mistake and you walk out of the door because you have a zero-tolerance policy in relationships. Sheesh, get real. There's theory and there's practice, and as Feynman said (paraphrasing), there's a huge gap between the two.
Jeff,
I get the numbness. I get the shock. I get the having to think about all the freaking options that have to be addressed and all the freaking hate and disrespect that goes along with this kind of crap. Been there as a daughter, granddaughter and lover.
What I don't get is the pressers. Here's why. Pressers require notification, thought, preparation, discussion and choice by both.
You've been up all night and day thinking about everything. You're shocked, ripped to shreds, your belief in your own judgment of people is fucking sewage, humiliated beyond belief, disrespected publicly, blindsided, everyone is going to think you're one serious fucking cold frigid bitch birthed for the bowels of hells, you suck sexually and you're hating all over his ass for fucking everything up not just his life but your's as well for his ego in his pants.
He wants a presser and she says "okay". Why aren't there more women saying No?
In situations like these it's not the men that are going to change it. Shit He's just going to get the wink wink, eblowing and giggling "oh he's got a randy dick there. Har Har Har"
It has got to be we women saying, "No. You're on your own. Deal with it. You were an ass. You're Done. Suck it up and then we'll discuss what's left of us."
Men like Spitzer rain down a lot of heartache and damage it's only because those who he hurts don't push him back and tell him he is fucking out of line on every platform.
I want to be free and to be respected in my own world. I can taste it I want it so badly. I want my nieces and all the daughters of the world to be free and respected as sentient human beings. My soul cries for it.
When I see women like Mrs. Spitzer doing pressers they crush me more because they help keep the most fucked up twisted illogical image going. We fight the same goddamn fucking batter over and over and over and over again. For fucking eons.
When I see women like Mrs. Spitzer doing pressers they crush me more because they help keep the most fucked up twisted illogical image going.
Holy shit, I can feel the frustration there.
Silver Owl, a question: Do you now right her off, maybe for lack of a better term, as in it for the power or would you repeat what you just said to her face?
I can only speak for myself but if I tried to get SWNBO to do a presser after I'd pulled that kind of shit they would have to hold it in the hospital emergency ward! Or possibly the morgue, depending on just which heavy instrument was closest to hand when I proposed such douchbaggery.
" Several of the comments in this thread (see: Dr Jay) are all focused on the mechanics of the process, as though there is somehow a "good" way to negotiate with a pimp for a woman's body, if you just do it tastefully enough. Um, no."
THANK YOU. There are too many people who buy into the "victimless crime" fallacy. It's pissing me off that people are complaining about why he didn't keep it in his pants versus why an elected official who prosecuted this crime is engaging in it. As if prostitution isn't part of the problem.
Ok, this is one area I just. do. not get. about. men.
Constant Comment | 03.10.08 - 7:02 pm
I'm late to the party as usual, but I think men think it doesn't "count" if she's a prostitute. It isn't adultery if you pay for it.
Or something.
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