What's embarrassing (for the national media) is that such a simple, blunt assessment of institutional misogyny has the capacity to make me positively swoon
Amen. I just followed Kevin's link and had the exact same reaction. I am so in love with Bob Herbert right now.
Even after reading countless nurturing and supportive posts and comments from the men here, I still want to cry with relief when I read and hear such understanding coming from a man. He gets it, he truly gets it.
I'm so glad you posted this! I read it this morning and thought "I love Bob Herbert. Should I send this to Shakes?" Then I realized you would probably be getting it from everywhere, so I wouldn't need to. 
Then I realized you would probably be getting it from everywhere, so I wouldn't need to.
Actually, no one emailed it to me, lol! Never feel shy about emailing; I'd rather get 50 emails about the same thing than miss something. 
I know, right? I mean, everything he says is obvious to me, but I never read it all laid out in blunt terms like that in big media outlets. It almost makes me want to be a tiny bit hopeful...
It feels really good to read this. Thanks, Bob Herbert (and Melissa). I feel relief to see it out there like that, with no apologies or mitigation. He's absolutely right on all points. Unfortunately, it also feels pretty bad to read it and immediately hear in my head the voices of the majority, disagreeing vehemently, making fun, excepting themselves from the judgment, and even, in response, thinking up some new crappy things to say about and do to women.
I live in the part of GA where the female hiker was murdered by the insane-according to the papers- woman hater guy. Now the self defense class teacher people and the news people(the only folks who actually profit from this sort of thing,hmm) are talking endlessly about what women are supposed to do to protect themselves from insane evil dudes in the forest who want to kill them. For 100 dollars a week.
Sigh.
The murder happened in one of the state's most beautiful places(she was abducted from what has to be THE most lovely place),one I've been to alone many times. I get so tired of the message that I'm supposed to be scared of being outdoors alone. Especially in a place of quiet and beauty. What,I'm supposed to carry a fucking Glock everywhere I go now? Self defense classes don't protect you against sneak attacks and weapons either,even if you're an advanced black belt.
And yet no one EVER asks WTF is WRONG with this country that there are seemingly so many assholes like this guy on the loose. Something creates that,no one is born to hate that much. It's not "just"mental illness because only a small percentage of mentally ill people are violent and that out of control. The asshole that murdered the pregnant Marine and burned her body because she turned him in for raping her isn't just a criminally insane maniac. That stuff STARTS somewhere.
Rape and torture and the murder of women is fucking entertainment on the teevee every freaking night. Several movies a year come out depicting this sort of shit. It's normalized,hell,I have to talk to my 13 yr old son about this daily,because the culture is determined to teach him this is no big deal.
Then,on the other side of Atlanta,in Athens,another woman was found drowned who had been missing for a few weeks too. No foul play is suspected. But we're still hearing about it endlessly.
Not on the news. A 12 yr old black girl,missing since New Years morning. She goes to my son's school and most of the school has no clue she's even gone.
Angry Old Broad: I have a post coming up shortly on self-defense that I hope you will find interesting (and possibly cathartic after having to listen to that shit).
What's crazy is that the ideas that Herbert elucidates are still considered controversial.
Way too true.
(Herbert's always been in the anti-Kristol class. You know. Always right.)
This should be pointed to every time some dumbass troll demands that we stop "trying" to be offended by "everything".
When the rare man gets it - really gets it - it brings tears to my cynical eyes. It's a small flicker of hope that this is not forever and that perhaps future women will be able to look back on this time (and all times) with relief that it's diminished rather than horror that it still continues.
I'm right there with you on this. And the sad thing is that Herbert's piece won't attract any attention at all, but you see if there isn't some major news story about Britney Spears some time soon that gets massive amounts of attention and helps reinforce the misogyny.
I always read Bob Herbert: Kevin Drum's assessment of him as "boring" a few months back was so off the mark.
This is not a new topic of his, but rather a position he has consistently voiced. How sad that his s often the lone voice in the wilderness of major news outlets....
Herbert mentions the “obsessive coverage” of the murder of Marine Lance Corporal Maria Lauterbach. Yes, she was another pretty, white, pregnant blonde, but Lauterbach, it appears, was failed repeatedly by her society, in and outside the Marine Corps. She was not taken seriously and in fact was harassed when she reported her rape, which (it seems) was the genesis of her pregnancy. Her mother called her a compulsive liar. When she went missing, she was blamed, very publicly and on a national level, for her own disappearance and was admonished to come back. The Marine Corps didn’t share with civilian authorities that she had a restraining order against her alleged murderer. Didn’t think it mattered. Now she has been murdered by (it appears) her rapist and now, now when it’s too late, the authorities are paying full attention.
This is what happens when women are treated as something inferior to men.
The Marine Corps prides itself on looking after its own. I am the mother of a Marine and I am also as furious as I can be by this apparent utter failure of the Corps to protect one of its own, Lauterbach, a woman, because they were too damn busy protecting another of their own, Laurean, a man, the alleged murderer.
This time I’d like to see us get even more obsessive about the coverage. This time (unlike Peterson and Holloway, for example) there was plenty of advance warning that this woman was in trouble – but it appears that she herself was blamed for it. I’d like to think that this, finally, could be the poster story that could get people outside “our” world talking seriously about violence against women. But I don’t think it’s going to happen.
Liss,my son is in martial arts. Korean TaeKwonDo. A great school,and I might add,the ONLY place in this godforsaken suburb that we've been welcomed,autism and all.
The school's Master was saying yesterday that they've been inundated with calls,calls that end when he tells people he doesn't do"self defense"style classes and that to get a black belt takes years,not a few months. He could make a fortune off this stuff and has chosen not to. Which is why we have been with that school for over a year and will continue as long as the kiddo is liking it.
I just came from reading Herbert's piece and my first reaction was also - I "heart" Bob Herbert.
I swoon along with thee all... kind of Shakespearean, eh?
As Bob cares, so do I and my cohorts at www.HillaryNowObamaLater.org, my personal effort to help my comrades and others to overcome their sexism (or to at least deal a blow to the overt sexism that exists in our "developed" country).
What is more than significant is the recent development of the "problem" of racism in the campaigns, just a couple of days after there were two weeks of overt sexism emanating from the halls of media. Seems like the media guys found a way to change the conversation and get off the hot seat, so to speak.
Must be a male phermone that makes this collective refocus possible. Pretty damn transparent, if you ask me.
Take care, and keep the faith! Mark
There is just something so wrong with the way Herbert is treated by the center/left. I can't count the number of times I've seen blogges and commentators who ought to know better complaining that herbert is boring, or wrong, or trite or just seeming never to have read any of his columns. I think herbert's work comes from a place of such integrity and such deep journalistic ethics that we just aren't used to it. I very seldom come away from a Herbert column without feeling like I've learned something that I *should already have known* or that I've seen someone spoken for who hasn't been spoken for before on the op ed pages. Herbert is one of my personal champions.
aimai
I think herbert's work comes from a place of such integrity and such deep journalistic ethics that we just aren't used to it.
Yep. "He's telling the truth in a straight-forward fashion. Ewwwww"
Wow..., just wow...
This guy is saying what I've been *trying* to say for years.
When she went missing, she was blamed, very publicly and on a national level, for her own disappearance and was admonished to come back. The Marine Corps didn’t share with civilian authorities that she had a restraining order against her alleged murderer. Didn’t think it mattered. Now she has been murdered by (it appears) her rapist and now, now when it’s too late, the authorities are paying full attention.
Absolutely, Bitty. She was ignored before because she was another girl crying rape and causing trouble for the boys. It gets obsessive coverage NOW that the young white woman is dead (the leering misogynistic coverage he was talking about). It's one big ball of woman-hating from A to Z, with military misogyny to boot.
"It's one big ball of woman-hating from A to Z, with military misogyny to boot."
Given one of Ginmar's latest posts, it's no wonder military rapes are treated as if they don't happen.
http://ginmar.livejournal.com/12...om/
1299855.html
Now that I'm more awake and can actually say what I want rather than blather endlessly:
I've been *trying* to say what Mr. Herbert says so effectively here, for a long time. I was turned on to feminist issues in highschool; just as my opinions were taking a radical leftward turn in other areas as well.
(If anyone here had known me before age 16; they would have HATED me; and rightly so. I was brought up in a right wing fundamentalist Christian home, well, when I was with my dad. My poor mom was too busy working her ass off to support me and my brother, little did I understand the toll that was taking)
Anyway... since then, In my own fumbling way; I've been trying to provide some voice for issues of this nature. It rarely comes across so effectively as Melissa or Kate or anyone else here says, nor as well as Mr. Herbert... but I've been trying.
I guess the point of this particular ramble is just to say "I'm glad to see another guy out there - this one with a (limited) national platform, actually saying this stuff."
I get positively sick hearing some of the loathsome comments that come from other guys. The endless "Don't be a pussy" comments for instance. WTF does that mean? (Well its obvious, but you understand what I'm saying) Or for that matter the whole notion that the sole point of existence is to get into a woman's pants...
That latter one is actually something I've taken issue with MANY times. Its not fair, neither to yourself nor to the woman in question. In treating a woman like an object, something to be screwed and forgotten; a man ruins 2 people at once.
First and foremost, he hurts someone who probably trusted him; and may even result in a child (which the MRA's would then bitch about having to pay child support for - assholes!)
Second - they ruin themselves, because it becomes ever harder to see the other person as more than a 'thing'.
Now I will admit, as a guy, I likes mah porn. But this is coming from a guy who's still a virgin because he's been waiting for the right person. I'm not saying everyone should do that (hardly!) - but something that's bugged me for ages is the very IDEA that a guy should go out and get with as many women as possible.
Its just... beyond stupid.
Back to the porn thing for a sec:
I think there are two distinct ways to look at it. (Its actually difficult for me to talk so frankly about this; I still have a fair bit of inhibition; but I'm making myself say it because it may help other people see my PoV, and it might also give others ways to talk to me as well)
The first is the way I look at it:
With a few exceptions, porn is just... well... porn. Its a way to relieve sexual tension when your single like I am.
This can of course lead to the incorrect conclusion that women are there to 'serve'; which is just BS; and maybe I'm weird in that I only found out some people get that vibe only far later.
The second:
And this is imho the more 'icky' version, is when people completely stop looking at the people involved as people at all. Its just like I mentioned above with the idiotic idea that a man needs to go after as many women as he can.
Its a complete and total dehumanization.
So therein lies the problem - as a single guy, I freely admit, porn has a use... but like so many things, and perhaps more than most, it can lead to undesirable things cropping up in some people.
Hmmm... Another way to describe this would be using the topic of videogames:
There are many who believe (and I'd have to say incorrectly generally speaking) that violent games will make a person violent. I can tell for sure that this isn't true in the vast majority of cases, because the vast majority of gamers I know genuinely abhor real violence. Its just a 'by proxy' thing. I've probably killed hundreds of thousands of virtual people over the years.
However I still have a hard time imagining doing such a thing 'for real'; and even then it would have to be a dire self-or-nation defending situation.
This said, its true without a doubt, that there are some people with very real problems who ARE set off by violent games. I don't think its the games that are the 'cause' - but rather in a very few people cause a spark that sets off something already there.
The same is likely true of porn.
So what's the point of that?
Simply put, there's plenty of built in misogyny in our culture. Childhood taunts all the way up through our adult years often insult people by referring to them in a female context; as though that's somehow supposed to be degrading in itself. Its built into the language, both slang and official.
So what it comes to, in my eyes; as far as porn goes - is where do we draw the line? Because on the one hand, it certainly can have a damaging effect... but on the other hand (err, no pun intended) there are uses as well.
Obviously there are people more knowledgeable than me who probably have a fairly good answer to this.
For myself, its just something I have to keep pushing back against wherever I see it. Hopefully it makes a little dent at least. Together I think we're chipping away, ever so slowly, at the inequalities built into our society.
"as a single guy, I freely admit, porn has a use"
So what you're saying is, women have a use and that's to get you off.
Of course, I realize that's not what you're attempting to say, but that is the message you're sending in talking about equality and then attempting to justify your porn use Attempts at defending porn always fail. Even more so when the only defense you can contrive is "it works for me".
Of course, it would be more useful
to define what it is you consider porn. Are we talking the Kama Sutra or bang brothers?
In a misogyny-less society porn would be "just porn". In this society however, it is much much worse.
Err... well to explain what 'porn' is to me:
Its a pretty broad category including both of the above and everything in between. (Though to be honest, I find the latter... kinda disgusting frankly; there's no passion or love or anything like that. I may as well watch a moose rut ya know?)
Err... and I'm definitely not trying to send that message; though I do see how it could be interpreted that way. Trust me, that's as far from my intention as it could get.
I dunno, you'd think a guy who wants to be a writer might be better at expressing himself; but this is a pretty tough area for me to even talk about; but its also quite important, which is why I tried to put my view out there just the same. I've thinking to do.
Ya know, this just reinforces what I was saying the other day: the New York Times does not need more conservatives. It needs more columnists who tell the truth and get it right.
It needs more Bob Herberts.
But... but... Without Bill Kristol, how will the poor New York Times ever shed its "liberal" label and thus appeal to the drooling warmongers among us?
It's not a simple topic. So don't worry about having trouble expressing yourself. This culture is drenched in the idea that porn is just "fantasy" and innocent fun. That's light years away from the truth, imo.
My point in asking what porn means to you is that it almost never means the same thing to two separate people. Meaning some consider *any* depictions of sex to be wrong, others (like myself) object when there are other factors mixed in - like exploitation, bigotry, etc.
The simple fact is, you don't know where what you're watching came from. Esp if it's "amateur". You don't know if what you're watching are willing actors, or forced participation. You don't know. And that fact alone makes me leery of any porn. Esp when I became acquainted with nopornnorthhampton.org. That site scared me away from the porn industry forever. I thank them, really, because they opened my eyes.
Consider one other thing too. You said you are a virgin. Do you ever wonder if porn is teaching you how to be a good lover, or teaching you to masterbate using a woman's body? Does what you watch teach you to understand female sexuality, or does it only focus on (perverting and damaging) male sexuality?
I have to say, from experience, that the worst lovers are not the inexperienced, but the porn-drenched.
('x') Well for the record, I don't watch a lot hehe; I should have mentioned that as well.
And yeah, I tend to shy away from that kind of thing.
I find exploitation to be just... disgusting on so many levels. When I see something advertising "exploited teens" I honestly think "Isn't this illegal?" - Cause seriously, if even half the shit they claim is true is true... then its flat out criminal; and that'll never be cool.
I spend probably about half of my 'porn' time in my own head, I've even written a couple erotic stories (no one will ever see them though! NEVER! *fear*); I dunno, I guess what I go for is mostly what would be called 'erotica' - but I've always found that title kinda pretentious.
I may need to check out that website you mention though... anything that hurts someone is NOT good in my book.
Good for Herbert. He's a bit hit or miss - he wrote an atrocious column in defense of Bush being ignorant back in 2000. But blame, and credit, where it's due.
JJohnson: I have been impressed by your comments here over the last week. You seem like a really nice and intelligent person. I mean it.
re:porn:
This is a VERY contentious topic, even on Feminist websites, and even when the commentariat are all female (as is usually the case at IBTP). You are opening a real can of worms here, don't let it silence you! Just think about all the input you get, I am sure much of it will be eye-opening for you.
I count myself among the anti-porn set; an early reading (at 1
of the book Gyn-Ecology (Would that book still be considered Hardcore Feminism?) by Mary Daly permanantly changed my frame of reference. But there are Feminists who defend pornography as well as ones like me who abhor it.
My best advice to you is: Don't become reliant on for-profit made by others erotica. You've got an imagination; use it. You really don't NEED pornography. At your age, NOT thinking about sex is an accomplishment, if I remember correctly!
In fact, I found that once I thought of the people depicted in pornography as Human Beings, porn was a total turn off. (Is that girl a runaway? Am I watching a RAPE? Etc)
I commend you for waiting until you are in a situation that is right for you, before you engage in mututal sexual expression with another person.
I swooned as well when I read this.
Then somehow I stumbled on Ann Althouse's take on it (and of course the ensuing comments). Way to completely miss the point. Intentional? Maybe. Everyone there was stuck on the legalized prostitution & Nevada brothels bit rather than the main theme of the article- misogyny. Somehow I'm not surprised.
Don't forget racism too! Check out this gem:
"More the pity that the NY Times made an affirmative action hire of a subpar, hack black columnist when there are dozens and dozens of real black journalists every bit as talented as their white counterparts the Times could hire instead. Who is Herbert anyways? The brother-in-law of a black lawyer that keeps the shareholders away from a revolt? Or did he have a past stint as a washroom attendent and catch a Sulzberger doing something very, very nasty and his column is his hush payment?"
Wow. But don't forget your healthy dose of misogyny (and irony):
"It's an odd mixture, the empowerment of women coupled with their inability to be independent, requiring protection. But now it's not protection by a man, but by the government. They need protection from men. We seem to have entered a bizarre Victorian age, where women wilt under the gaze of the man, but simultaneously want to be firemen or Sex Workers where they so choose."
Nothing there is even particularly offensive; it's just the same "sex-workers ALL choose the profession, so obvi it's NEVER exploitation" bit. Le sigh.
To me, Bob Herbert is the last remaining bastion of journalism and integrity on the NYT columnist page. Brooks? Nope. Kristol? Nope. Friedman? Maybe--good on environmental issues, not so good on lots of other things. Dowd? Nope. Cohen, Krugman, and Rich--don't pay much attention to them, honestly. Kristof? On leave. Collins? Entertaining but not great. Herbert? Consistently insightful, straightforward, articulate, and awesome on social issues. I couldn't believe what he wrote today and I was so happy to see it. I was talking to a friend about it later whose response to the article was essentially "needs to STFU, who cares about a few brothels or football fans yelling at women to strip? There are more important things to talk about!" Said friend also thought that violence against women was NOT prevalent in advertising and that media coverage of Clinton's campaign was NOT overwhelmingly misogynist, or even misogynist at all.
So, while the column was fantastic and I'm thrilled to see a member of the mainstream media standing up and saying, "We need to talk about these things. Now," the reactions are a reminder that ... sometimes, it feels like we have made so little progress. I'm thrilled to see Herbert's column today, but at the same time I'm thinking that it's such a low bar to set. :/
Kmtberry | Homepage | 01.15.08 - 3:53 pm | #
Hehe, thanks. I came here to learn; and I do my very best to understand as I do; and also to express my own thoughts and views (as clumsy as they come out at times); because well... only by sharing can we come to understanding ya know?
I really like Shakesville, even when I've had disagreement here, people are willing to understand that I'm trying to learn and figure out where I can be of help; and that just means a ton to me.
I dunno, it really makes me happy to hear I'm not just being a pest too hehe (~_~) I always worry about that.
Thanks very much; like I said, lots left to learn, your thoughts are definitely appreciated!
The sexual mistreatment of women in the military is widespread.
What the fuck has gone wrong with my country when this shit is true?
I served 6 years in the Military and never, never once heard even a whisper of something like this taking place. NOT A FUCKING WHISPER.
My sister was in the Navy and she never had such an experience either. My mother was in the Army and ditto. So how the fuck come, in the space of less that 50 years all the men in the service have become rapists and the higher ups don't give a sweet fuck?
In my day somebody tried something like this and they would have taken up long term residence in the barbwire hotel faster than you can squeeze shit out of a baby! 
Tragically, GOM, none of that means it wasn't happening. If the world of 50 years ago was for women what it sems to have been, silence would have been the *only* thing you would have heard.
All porn (or erotica) is not the same.
There are plenty of resources these days for quality porn in which the participants are willing. and that feature a wide array of body types, sexualities, ethnicities and sexual practices. including instructional.
As far as using your imagination goes, if I take that argument to its logical extension, I'd say don't read any more books about any subject or watch any more movies at all, because gosh darn it, you should just be able to imagine it! C'mon now - books and movies of all genres are or can be tools for imagination, porn/erotica included.
If JJohnson wants to be an ethical porn consumer with an eye toward feminist principles, he should avail himself of the resources out there. I'm not trying to be a shill for the various purveyors out there, so I'll just say that a search for "feminist porn" and "feminist sex shops" should yield some decent results.
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