Yeah but are the chances of ever finding out who pulled the trigger ?
If it was a military team we'll never find out.
One of the mysteries is the evident delaying of the train at Stockwell ... see the drivers Union claims .. also the driver ran off into the tunnel to be caught and pinned against the tunnel wall.
We have the eye-witness accounts of the 4 minute delay and the doors opening / closing and the clamour to get out.
We now know that they followed him for over 15 minutes whilst they assembled the team at Stockwell tube (20 men by some accounts) ... which raises the question , how did they know that was his destination ?
Look at pic in Saturday Daily Telegraph - not available online - of Police gun man. Flat soled, ballet pump red/white trainers / jeans / T shirt and gun that looks like a prop from "The Terminator".
More answers need more questions.
xymphora says de Menezes was "picked at random" and I don't think I buy it
don't think this is even racially motivated
don't believe a word about the details of the "chase" because I don't think there was one
he was executed - why is the question
and the denials that it is directly linked with the bombings is an interesting denial, coming from perpetrators or coverers-up of perpetrators
no, i do not think de menezes killed dozens of commuters deliberately and in cold blood all by himself or even in collusion
but perhaps he knew on some level that it wasn't the bombers either - there is something very devious about his death, something very much on the order of a warning to others in a position to give evidence
it's likely to be the killing of a witness
It truly amazes me that the US mainstream media is STILL towing the original "Al Qaeda" terrorist attacks. I've been watching CNN, MSNBC, and FOX very closely and none of them have retracted any of it. How many times has the UK police changed their story in the past two weeks? At least a half dozen times.
Can anyone recommend some high traffic message boards in the US that we can help enlighten people? I've tried to post on Daily Kos but was censored along with dozens of other truth seekers. Any recommendations?
Perhaps the security services may have erroniously believed he was linked with the "bombers." Assuming that is the case, they had to eliminate him. I understand that three men basically tackled this guy so there was no reason whatsoever to shoot him (or shoot him five times).
If this was legitimate law enforcement work, I would think you would want him alive to be questioned. It looks like they did not want him alive as dead men tell no tales.
Did the security services in plain clothes really identify themselves? The witnesses say the guy looked absolutley terrified like he was running for his life.
I think he knew they were going to kill him. If it's really the police and you have many police chasing you, why not just stop and give up. What would you have to lose if you're not involved with anything illegal?
In my previous post here, I said "perpetrators" to mean those who committed the act of killing de Menezes, not ultimate perpetrators of the bombings or whatever happened on the tube
and the official who announce the explanation of a mere mistake are also to my mind engaged in cover-up
as to messaging - I just don't know - I don't really do it
except here
Oh by the way, being I live in the US and rarely get the chance to view UK news, is there anyone here who happened to catch SkyNews on the morning of the Stockwell shooting? They actually showed the team of killers exiting the tube station.Some of them were wearing blue shirts with matching blue ball caps. Very odd. Two of the guy's I got a good look at looked like your typical "macho mustached" CIA types.
Mondo: as far a U.S. blog, you could try atrios. www.atrios.blogspot.com
There are a lot of bright people who comment on that blog. It's quite similar to dailykos though. Perhaps you should try your posts there.
I've watched the news here in the US and they always tow the first draft official line
They've never updated their reports to account for the fact that this guy didn't 'run from police' (he ran from a gang of plain-clothes strangers waving guns), or that he didn't jump the barrier.
Of course, Fox News and all the talking heads basically say 'too bad it was the wrong guy, but it was his fault for wearing a big coat, acting suspicious, and running from police'
The argument that this guy had it coming is the same old 'bitch had it coming' argument we always hear from right-wing apologists and Faux-news type facists when some 13-year old girl gets shot in Iraq.
People are basically trying to justify this London Lynching with various arguements such as:
1. The guy was suspicious enough - he was wearing a puffy jacket in the summer
2. The guy ran when the police started chasing him
3. He ran into the subway station and jumped the barriers
4. The police feared that he would set the bomb off and therefore shot him
And here are some of the obvious answers:
1. It was 72 degrees outside (and it could have been somewhat cloudy or windy, I don’t know) - that’s not so hot that you can’t wear a jacket
2. These were not uniformed police! Ask almost anyone what their instant reaction would be to a group of regularly-dressed guys who suddenly pull a gun out and start shouting. The person had *no way* of knowing who these people were!
3. Oops, looks like the whole 'jumping the barrier' thing was just a lie made up to cover their asses: the official report simply states: "He was then followed by surveillance officers to the underground station. His clothing and behavior added to their suspicions."
4. If the police feared he had a bomb they would have shot him in the back as he ran away. Alternately, they might have shot him from a distance when he was in the subway car. Why the hell would they get close to him, tackle him, hold him down (5 guys) and then shoot him in the head *5 times*.
Oh, and in terms of 'not being able to understand them', first , I'm from CA and I've been to London, I couldn't understand a word of what those people were saying the whole week I was there. Plus, even if I understood a group of strange men saying 'Stop, we're police' while waving a gun at me, I'd still run.
P.S. This was obviously a psy-op terror operation - meant to make every minority in London scared (plus, conveniently the four pictures of the suspected bombers they have released include two south asians, one black, and one east asian). This is the equivalent of a modern-day lynching.
P.P.S. I will never again go to London as a tourist to spend my hard earned dollars - at the least I hope this incident come back to bite them in the tourism industry ass!
Find out who fired the shots. You might discover that Britain has surrendered its sovereignty.
There was a news story in 2003 (see whatreallyhappened.com for today, 7/24)
about allowing Israeli assassination teams to operate against members of the Muslim community in Britain who were troublemakers.
The people who opened the gate to this sort of despicable behavior expressed some worries that "innocent people" (non Muslims) might get killed or kidnapped.
What about the renditions authorized by Bush? What about the recent events in which a man was kidnapped to Egypt from Italy by CIA on a fat expense account? The man was later released and then disappeared (cf. Nick Berg who seems to have found out about Abu Ghraib, who was captured-released-killed in typical fascist fashion which was the rule in Latin American dictatorships).
Pay close attention to the killers, though they are probably back where they came from by now, flying First Class with all the trimmings. Whoever can find them may uncover a lot about 7/7.
"Extreme right-wing British racist groups."
Uh, that'd be the end of any collaboration with Mossad, methinks.
There are CCTV cameras all over Stockwell Tube Station. Been there many times. It had other problems previously with drugs and ticket touts and... people jumping the barriers.
Show us the CCTV pictures!
Then show us the pictures from Kings X, which still haven't surfaced.
The "Magic Bomb" Theory
by Mark Faulk
This is a story about disappearing terrorists, nonexistent bags, and botched investigations, but most of all, this is a story about magic bombs.
It's Crime Scene Investigation 101. It's the basic law of physics. It's so elementary, my dear Watson, that even a dancer who was dazed from the shock of being seated directly over the spot where one of the bombs was planted in the London tube carriage two weeks ago could figure it out.
In a seemingly innocuous article in the British newspaper Cambridge Evening News, 32 year-old dance instructor Bruce Lait, in an interview from his hospital bed, said that "The policeman said 'mind that hole, that's where the bomb was'. The metal was pushed upwards as if the bomb was underneath the train. They seem to think the bomb was left in a bag, but I don't remember anybody being where the bomb was, or any bag."
Read that last part again, very slowly, and let it sink in. "The metal was pushed upwards as if the bomb was underneath the train." "They seem to think the bomb was left in a bag, but I don't remember anybody being where the bomb was, or any bag."
And the British authorities on the crime scene missed that, and just assumed that it was a carry-on bomb? C'mon, how many times have you seen that bad TV show where the eccentric detective figures out that the crime was an "inside job" because the glass was outside the broken window, not inside where it should have been. I repeat: Crime Scene Investigation 101. Basic physics.
While describing the scene, Lait said about he and his dance partner Crystal Main, "Out of that whole carriage, I think Crystal and I were the only ones who were not seriously injured, and I think we were nearest the bomb."
He went on to describe those sitting closest to him and Main when the bomb went off. "I remember an Asian guy, there was a white guy with tracksuit trousers and a baseball cap, and there were two old ladies sitting opposite me." He described the woman whose body was lying on top of him when he regained consciousness as a "middle-aged woman who had blonde curly hair, was dressed in black, and could have been a businesswoman."
Again, play close attention here. "We were nearest the bomb." An Asian guy, a white guy, two old ladies, and a blond businesswoman......and two dancers.
So.....if the bomb was in a bag carried on by the terrorist, how could two dancers be "nearest the bomb"? And why didn't the person who was the closest eyewitness see the bomber, or even ANYONE, sitting where the bomb went off? Why was the metal pushed upwards if the bomb was inside of the train carriage?
Let's put this in perspective, piece by piece:
"The metal was pushed upwards as if the bomb was underneath the train."
"I don't remember anybody being where the bomb was, or any bag."
"We were nearest the bomb."
An Asian
I had some fine sausages and address the problem with more energy.
4 clear mug shots - seen by zillions. Well as pic they look .. er .. odd, single guys no others in the frame, they look (to me) well photoshopped grabbed off the moving images.
3 guys who are helping with enquiries are on the Police admission not the "bombers" .. but may have "information" blah blah - BBC TV news 7.00 UK.
Maybe these guys don't exist ?
Maybe no-one shares their bed, cooks their tea, mothers their children, plays football with them, works with them, is /was in love with them, goes to the gym with them, lives down the street from them ?
Different MO , drop the fizz bombs, at a quiet time, leg it.
I'ts 48 hours on and many millions of eyes have seen these pics. What about the eyewitnesses who tried to stop / trip him up ? Have they said - yeah that's the guy ?
There is always this insistence that peeps employ the same MO. Here they ape / mimic the first job - somebody playing games ?
NB I find bombs under the train difficult to accept, these trains are warehoused in different places. Of course if CCTV was released of the perps at Kings X and on the tube that would help.
The eyewitness describing the raised floor etc is very convincing however - and damn it all, shook hands with the Monarch.
ziz - glad you have had nourishment
Mr. Lait, the dancer, was a bit hard to understand about the bomb-hole which the policeman directed him around. Was this AS he was being helped from the train (after they cleared the dead people away from him)?
Does the thing under the train which made the raised floor have to be a conventional bomb?
Early statements about a miliary explosive explained what? The absence of something you would expect from a home-made bomb? Residue, for instance?
And yet not so very many people were killed. So they went back and calibrated the amount of explosives not based on actual traces, but the effect. In reality, no one knew whether the backpacks carried any explosives or if there were any backpacks at all. Mr. Lait does not seem to have seen an Asians with a backpack.
But now here is my tedious point: he and the pair of sisters Benton from Tennessee all claimed to have experienced a sense of electrical shock followed (in more graphic detail by one of the sisters) by a sense of burning in the skin. One girl assumed a fetal position in response. Voluntarily or not?
Maybe I am not so much a newt fancier as a frog fancier. Maybe this was a weapon which acted on the nerves through electricity, like a super taser which could break glass. Thus the story of a power surge. Or could it have been a third rail accident blown into a terror event by the "people who work the spells"?
Maybe it did come from under the train. What might it have been if we were not limited to the official explanation? It isn't that one should not focus on the obvious facts, but that there are assumptions made which exclude actual statements made by two sets of victims.
And there is a dead electrician who was going to work on the Stockwell line (some reports have him killed while on his way to work).
I'm sticking with this until there is an investigation of who did the shooting and on what authority.
Glad to see the "dancer" evidence finally presented here. It cannot be explained with an "inside-the-car" device, of whatever composition. Mendes was indeed an electician. Perhaps he had knowledge of how the "blasts" were done, and had to be offed, the way so many JFK assassination witnesses came to an untimely end?
One has to wonder if the "assistance" the Israelis are giving the London police is akin to the "assistance" that American military units lent to central American death squads. This security unit could've been a hybrid English-Israeli team, with the Israelis on as advisors/instructors and likely the "trigger puller".
Either way, things are being raised to a self sustaining feedback loop. Muslims (or simply those mistaken for muslim) are being eyed nervously, and are becoming nervous in return. The paranoia rises until the nervous ones look like "guilty ones" and attacks will be made (watch for it) simply on that basis. "He came out of the mosque and he looked very nervous, like he was carrying a bomb, so the lads and I jumped on him!". Muslims running from white mobs will turn into Muslim mobs throwing bricks which will turn into white mobs burning mosques which will turn into Britain keeping it's troops in Iraq/Iran.
Has anyone heard where de Menzes worked? Was he a freelance electrician?
The photo of him having lunch with friends first shown by BBC is no longer the photo they are using. Those friends (from my experience of groups of people - in this case mixed race and both sexes) have a techie look. Like they are educated and foreign. But now he is shown alone and the impression of a person who could be mistaken for a terrorist on the run is more supportable.
Has any paper in Britain reported on where he worked?
From what I have gleaned he lived with two female cousins. One of them said she did not think he would have gone out with a heavy coat, as he did not generally do that.
He also was going to install a fire alarm. So that must mean someone called him for a job and he left the building to do the job.
Did he even know his building was "under surveillance"?
This is looking more and more like someone wanted to make an example and thought they could pass him off as a bomber that they "got".
The testimony of Mr. Whiteby is supportive in an odd way of the police, as he upheld the Asian identity and perhaps (do you remember?) the heavy jacket. I do not trust this man, who watched the killing.
@ Dianne Foster 7/24/05 9:43 am
If it smells like, if it looks like, if it talks like, if it tastes like:
an important witness expiration,
the neo-mafia has just implemented/resurrected old-time measures. No, not just, it’s been going on way back beyond when we remember it from the Untouchables. It’s only just beginning to become a reality based awareness.
Dianne:
some info on his work here
(in portuguese)
http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/
fol...272u44816.shtml
translation from google:
http://translate.google.com/
tran...Flanguage_tools
"motion" means bike! motorbike...
damn automatic translations, or's just my short english vocabulary...
The "nazis" did it. Right???
Wasn't there a British television documentary revealing way more than suspected constabular racism months ago?
If this is a black operation, who do you think ordered it? Who is overseeing this whole operation?
Does Blair and top UK ministers know about this or do they not want to know. Who is in control? Security services claim they were watching the Brazilian guy's flat/housing complex. -- why? Are there any other legitimate suspects that just happened to live nearby -- if so, why has it not been reported who were they watching for?
I think you will see the so called heavy winter jacket was not so heavy. Likely just a lite jacket for wind/rain. Have they released the pictures of this guy in the tube station? Do they have the shooting on camera? Is the UK media or MPs demanding this be released?
dianne - u said " they went back and calibrated the amount of explosives not based on actual traces, but the effect." - theres a problem with this tho - we were told there was 10 pounds of military explosives, and then we were told that they were bathroom bombs - but the "10 pounds" bit hasnt changed. does that seem odd?
btw - ive noticed that most of the newspaper write-ups seem to not mention the fact that dead guy actually caught a bus from his house to the station, and that the undercover murderers caught the bus with him. its probably nothing, but it seems like an odd omission.
if they were nervous about him getting on the tube, and they were on the same bus, they would have been most aware that he was getting off the bus at the tube.
Is the UK media or MPs demanding this be released?
The one VERY noticeable and universal thing about the UK MP's is their fucking total silence on the bombings / execution. Even Gorgeous George.
Thanks lukery: Wow that's a totally new perspective: that they got on the bus with him.
I'm trying to visualize this. He doesn't run from them then. Probably doesn't notice them?
This really adds a new dimension. They are as you say assuming that he was not going to be a bus-bomber today, but instead a tube bomber.
Only he isn't either.
And what is wrong with their eyes that they think he looks Pakistani.
His cousin also says she didn't think he even wore a heavy coat.
No, MSM focused on the victim, wanted us to join in blaming him (and why not? doesn't the MSM want us to respect the police, even revere them?)
for running away. But he was oblivious it seems.
Just going about his business, while men were plotting his murder.
But they say it isn't murder because murder has a new name: Kratos. Oh, yeah, let's call murder Kratos. Let's call Bush the son of God.
They got on the bus with him?
How did they know he wasnt going to blow the bus up, taking them out also?
They obviously knew he had no bomb.
So maybe he spots the three goons following him, when he gets off the bus. He then runs. Why? did he know something?
Was he party to their "electrical bomb" wheeze on 7/7?
Still trying to find out where he worked. If anyone spots it will they please post it. Thanks .
ID
actually - more info here.
they were on the bus *and* there was a separate group at the station. they let him get off the bus, he waited a few minutes on the other side of the road, then they let him get inside the station, and then started chasing him.
curiouser.
the story has morphed a little bit from "officers called in an elite unit of specialist firearms officers to make an armed arrest before he entered the station." on saturday
to "the decision was taken at Scotland Yard that he must not be allowed to get to the platform."" on monday
I don't understand why you fellows are not out on the streets, scream at the media, your representatives and demand a public inquiry?!?
You still have some freedom in your country. The country of Sherlock Holmes, Inspector Morse....
You are no dummies to swallow these imbecile lies like the people in the US did after 9/11...
Yes, you are our only hope now to DEMAND and find the truth...
"If the press runs with this, he thought wistfully, Blair will be exposed as a murderer of his own people. You can kill Israelis and get away with it. You can kill Americans and they'll make you President for a second time. But the Brits are made of wiser stuff. They'll hang Blair from the highest lamppost in London."
[Michael James, "Tony Blair Ordered The London Bombings" http://www.rense.com/general66/blair.htm]
Can we see the CCTV footage from the Bus and from Stockwell Tube Station??
England should be in uproar over this - but they are cowering like frightened sheep at the brutality of this extra-judicial slaying of an innocent man.
DEMAND TO SEE THE CCTV !!
@ Thomas
yeah!! this what I'm waiting for the Brits to do, but since they get news by Media and Media is controlled by the Government, so people may not get to the real story, so there won't be any DEMAND to find the truth. It's all just BS.
I'm from Pakistan and on 7/7 when I heared about the bombings, I said to my self "perhaps, it's now our turn to get bombarded". Believe me, I'm very scared... Why are only Muslims being framed by killing your own innocent people by the very hand of your own Government or Intelligence Agencies?? Only for few thousand barrels of oil or few thousand acers of land?? Is human life so cheap for CIA, Mossad or MI5,6?? When're they gonna stop? When are you people gonna ask your government to stop doing this? Please tell me, I'm very scared...
irishD - they still wont show us the kingsX cctv footage from the 7th. that footage was the clincher that 'proved' that those guys were the bombers... bastards.
Shades of the CCTV hijacker story: no tapes except for those from Maine, until years later, in which a very grainy one from Washington is shown with alleged hijackers at some distance from the monitor (Washington is not exactly a provincial backwater and there are many middle easterner looking people passing through).
No - in the case of 9/11 it took a long time to pin the case on the "right" men after the kind of Hasib Hussain passport follies. Is this because of understandable police difficulties or because of creating a story out of whole cloth to explain events with a far more sophisticated origin?
It doesn't seem the hijackers themselves appeared on the passenger manifests of the very sparsely filled flights. Now why is that?
xymphora pointed out that if things had gone according to plan instead of some snafu getting in the way (we probably don't know what it was), de Menezes would have had a legend created around him. I wonder if they realized after all that "surveillance" that he had a family living with him who would understand from the situation that he had been the one shot while going to work. Somebody dropped a dime, I guess, on the secret police.
Everyone should see Wag the Dog for the lines of Robert de Niro in it about how power constructs "reality" out of thin air.
From the beginning, I have believed that Bush has blackmail material probably handed down from his dad's pedophile "framing" days and that is how he's controlling the publishers and owners. They, in turn, control the reporters and have nurtured a sense in journalists that we the sheeple have no powers of discernment or analysis. I know, I have an advanced degree in journalism and I saw the cynicism among my classmates. They refused to believe that people other than journalists often got the news first...but that is the fact.
It takes 2 years for a trend to gain enough visibility to be noticed by the general press. That trend is an established practice in the trade or industry that it comes from before the mainstream press realizes it. In 2 years, somebody will finally realize that London was a set up.
What can we do about it? Maybe we could sell things on ebay that link to websites that explain why these items are necessities...like dosometers (for radiation) or tests for gunpowder residue or super magnets that would render guns useless...I think that we all need to give this subject some real thought BEFORE THESE CLOWNS INVADE IRAN.
Many Americans don't know, but there have been American citizens put in jail already for opposing these clowns. There are already tapping and emailing traces and goodness knows what else going on. But unless we stand up and make noise nothing will happen.
The reason that they backed down on PBS is because people made a lot of noise. We just have to get a central location that podcasts, emails and herds people to the phones and emails to stop what is going on.
MK
As to the two-year gap before something reaches the MSM and has credibility, I think we have a case in point with the Plame affair.
When it happened, one famous blogger seemed to rub his hands in glee, knowing that this was the beginning of a sort of Watergate, because (unnoted by most) the Bush team had hired defense counsel, very quietly. And now - voila!
Here's my early insight: I knew that when Bush put the false information about Niger yellowcake in the State of the Union in 2003 in order to reinforce the idea that if was necessary to go into Iraq (I believe the 2002 was the Axis of Evil one), and when it turned out that this was part and parcel of the deceptions about Saddam's capabilities, I felt that this speech before all the branches of government, the Big Lie told in conclave, as it were, in that very august body representing the United States government, a speech required by the Constitution - would brand him in history as a perjuror. The reason this is less likely than that Rove will be prosecuted for Plame, is that 1) people don't like to admit they were fooled and 2) we are now having it constantly driven in and reinforced that the Saddam loyalists were in fact monsters. So maybe the smoke will never clear on that until a generation has passed, and those misled are in their graves. Sometimes it takes more than 2 years.
You people are utterly ridiculous with all this talk (Especially Diane Foster) Conspiracy theorists gone wild! London was attacked by militant Islam, these terrorists (not bombers) are the enemy. Bullets to the head execution style is a bit extreme, but for now I'm giving the police the benefit of the doubt. Wake up to the threat that is out there, I hope to God Britain's leaders don't give in to the appeasers within its own borders.
"benefit of the doubt" ?!
Ever seen at least a stupid movie where someone jumped on a guy with a bomb?!
IF the cops knew for sure he had a bomb, would they have tackled him?! In which world are we living?!
The Israelis and the Sri Lankans shoot the would-be suicide bombers, but from a distance (a long one)!!
Ok. So he was an everyday electrician. MI5 look in the yellow pages, ring him up and ask him if he can fit an electronic bomb to the bottom of a tube train. He does so (hey, we all have to make a living). After the bombing they have to take him out in case he blabs. They choose to take him out in front of numerous witnesses in spectacular fashion in a public place. If he was the target why didn't they go into his flat, bust a cap with a silencer and dispose of the body?
Oh no, they can't do that because then nutbags like you couldn't sit up all night wishing the world was a more interesting place.
What you are saying here is an insult to the families of an innicent victim of these unfortunate times. Look at the bloody evidence! How many reporters work for mainstream media? They can't all be in on it. I admit the news is biased but if a reporter comes across a major leak we hear about it (or are they bumping off reporters left right and centre too?). If that were the case journalism wouldn't be so competitive an industry.
Wake up people. Or just be quiet and watch the matrix (again).
The fact is: two weeks after
Jean Charles was killed by London
police, one bestial thing I be
aware now: The policemen call her
chief while was holding downm Jean: " What we shall do? - they asked" and then she replied: "Shot him!"
So, they shot him eight times!.
And there comes that ( big idiot )
official saying : " I admire our police " He was referring to barbarian policy : Shot first, and after ask!"
En manos de hombres pecadores...en los brazos de Dios
A Brazilian,
with seven holes in his head,
knows that looks can kill.
Jean Charles de Menezes,
our Josef K for the day,
he runs while we prey.
Put down like a dog,
we watch, face at the window,
his trial and our guilt.
A town black with tears,
Gonzaga is not London
but it bleeds the same.
Fear is a weapon
with a blade for a handle,
his wounds are our own.
A J Cuthbert (2005)
hey i hope you get blown up by a suicide bomber u nut case..yeah keep supporting terrorists and letting them get the best of you..u fuck face.
The intelligent voice of America speaks; there is silence as we listen. There are many bloggers like this guy 'Ant' who are afflicted by the inability to differentiate between quilt and innocence. Like paranoia, ignorance is a treatable condition. We can help you.
Footnote: 'Quilt' is a term which means 'to cover up guilt'. This is often conducted through casting aspersions on another's legal position without a trial or evidence. A very popular device with the British and American Security Services in their current W.O.T.
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well the death team was about to be ..........they turned the confrontation on that man to save themsel.....from the wise operation.....well he was .....rout
the 2 bombs where inside the chairs on that bus planted in the garage well ...........
think about the trains stuffing operation
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