Xymph, 'racist' is a term that obscures facts.
Here is a lovely quote, with it immediate source:
“The situation between us,” Dayan creepily informed the Palestinian poet Fadwa Tuqan, “is like the complex relationship between a Bedouin man and the young girl he has taken against her wishes. But when their children are born, they will see the man as their father and the woman as their mother. The initial act will mean nothing to them. You, the Palestinians, as a nation, do not want us today, but we will change your attitude by imposing our presence upon you.”
>http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2007/
05/28/070528crbo_books_remnick?printable=true
Xym - I guess you don't do commemorations but today is the 40th anniversary of the israeli attempted take-out of USS Liberty.
I guess you saw Old Sarky trying to pimp his wife to Pootiepoot at the G8. That's judeity for you - the man is still faithful to the example of his ancestor Abra(ha)m!
Today DBS wonders out loud whether Jack Blood was "a spanky boy for the élites".
I don't think Bandar bin Aspen and King Abdullah are on the same side.
Stuff I need to tell Daryl:
Gangster Computer God Worldwide Secret Containment policy made possible solely by Worldwide Computer God Frankenstein Controls. Especially lifelong constant threshold brainwash radio. Quiet and motionless, I can slightly hear it. Repeatedly this has saved my life on the streets. Four billion wordwide population, all living, have a Computer God Containment Policy brain bank brain, a real brain in the brain bank cities on the far side of the moon we never see. Primarily, based on your lifelong Frankenstein Radio Controls, especially your Eyesight TV, sight and sound recorded by your brain, your moon brain of the Computer God activates your Frankenstein threshold brainwash radio lifelong, inculcating conformist propaganda, even frightening you and mixing you up and the usual, "Don't worry about it." For your setbacks, mistakes, even when you receive deadly injuries. This is the Worldwide Computer God Secret Containment Policy.
http://www.ubu.com/sound/dec.html
X. which is that racist journal you're are talking about, I may have it. I love that word "racist" it's soooo provocative.
Good post today, I agree with most of it. And yup, Turkey is in the crosshairs.
Never mind, I see The Occidentaly Quarterly, nope don't have.
Xymphora, it would be helpful if you could elaborate on your notion of American Establishment in contrast to the Zionist lobby. Given the overlaps, convergences, symbiosis and bi-partisanship of the Lobby, these analytical categories seem anachronistic.
They seem to belong to a pre-WWI Wasp America. Bien entendu, the word 'Wasp' itself is anachronistic since it was created in the 1960s, when the white establishment was already in frank decline.
It occurs to me also that the Turkish 'establishment' has strong pro-Israel proclivities, a club to which Turkey's own PM Tayyip Erdogan seem not to belong.
It would be interesting to see a sharper conceptual contrast between these two cases of pro and allegedly anti zionist 'establishments'.
I meant 'the contrast' between these two analytical categories seem anachronistic.
I still see Gary North as the link between post-millennialist christians and libertarians, and I am still very curious about the so-called Council for the National Interest, which provides a hard-to-imagine umbrella beneath which pre-mils and post-mils can make weird theocratic deals.
Sorry - not Council for National Interest - that is an anti-zionist outfit, the names got mixed up in my mind owing to their excessive vagueness - I meant Council for National Policy, as here:
http://www.watch.pair.com/cnp.html
Here is another study of them:
http://www.seekgod.ca/topiccnp.htm
There are also articles at Wikipedia and Sourcewatch. This is one group I bet Xymph could do a slap-up job on!
It pisses me off when I must eat stuff that has that KSA kosher stamp of approval and there must be others like me.
So here is a business idea: Lardass Inc., We Dekosherize Food For A Busy Antisemite.
come on smekhovo, the Jews made up those lies of Abraham - you know it too.
lobro, too bad i can't eat pork...it's surprising the Jews won't even touch "halal" food, although it is food made in the name of God - Jews never eat halal food - although muslims are allowed to eat kosher or food made by Christians or anyone else as long as it is not dedicated to idols.
Moses and God - Testing thumbsnap
http://thumbsnap.com/v/3goIYPJS.jpg
Xenophile | 06.08.07 - 8:44 am - I asked X. to do just that, clarify who the Am. Establishment is, a few days ago and still no answer.
hehehe Cal.
Now let me get this straight,
the Arabs get the oil,
and we have to cut the ends off our what?
Rowan Berkeley | Homepage | 06.08.07 - 8:59 am - very interesting article, but Barbara Aho seems a bit suspect when I google her "Ruckmanite Barbara Aho subscribes to a form of the channeling ideas pioneered by the Blavatsky tradition in her embrace of the 'guided writing' claims of ..."
http://discernment.co.za/alert/BA.cfm
I'm sure some of what she says is true, certainly Knupffer would agree with this: "In theory, diminishing the expansive power of government is appealing. However, the wisdom of deregulating the transnational corporations, thereby permitting them to amass sufficient economic power to cripple whole nations, has been discredited since the Asian crisis"
But something tells me her agenda isn't quite Kosher.
@Me: I read your post in the other thread. I'm just segueing on your post. Hopefully Xymph will shed some light on the issue.
@ righteo re: 2001 Space Odyssey
Kubrick's spaceship designs for 2001 came straight from v. Braun's sketch books, and he managed to tap an astounding amount of cutting-edge 1960s space technical knowledge. He was known for his accurate and thorough research, but the uncanny detail may betray some good-will on the part of the guvmint. Not only for 2001, but also for Dr. Strangelove.
Some conspirologues argue that after 'participating' in the moon landings, Kubrick feared for his life, and for that reason became a reclusive. They add that Eyes Wide Shut was his subtextual (and testamentary) affront to the Jewish billionaire's club.
There's a famous line by Kubrick in which he said:
"Hitler was right about almost everything he said about the jews".
Xeno - I too have heard that Kubrik was especially scathing about the zionists, and refused to have any symbolism in his movies that one might associate with them. Then, to his chagrin, izzy was given the www. address of .il -- and on the side of one of the 2001 spaceships is the marking IL.
Kubrik was very annoyed by that.
I agree, 'me' - Barbara belongs to a peculiar little schismatic plymouth brethren spin-off which is trying to outguess what it sees as a scheme involving a simulated antichrist.
But check her database, which is as awesome as that of her counterpart at seekgod.ca
http://watch-unto-prayer.org/cnp...g/
cnpdbase.html
I wonder when it was that parents stopped giving Gaylord as a first name.
Jascha Heifetz had his right arm permanently damaged by a yid with an iron bar who objected to his playing Richard Strauss.
'Me' - and anyone else interested - to appreciate the difference between post-millennialists and pre-millennialists on zionism, all you have to do is read Gary North's November 2003 piece:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/north...h/
north222.html
or better still the July 200 piece:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/...rig/
north7.html
Believe me, zionists do not write this way - but as Roussas Rushdoony's son-in-law, Gary North has an abiding interest in the USA getting rid of its serious Jews, and converting the remaining, unserious ones to protestantism.
hehehe Cal.
Now let me get this straight,
the Arabs get the oil,
and we have to cut the ends off our what?
righteo | 06.08.07 - 11:01 am | #
Some cartoonists truly their wits about them, even in a judaicized America! 
http://preteristcosmos.com/
Yeah Rowan but North is still reeling from his Y2k Elmer Gantrying.
Course he's preferable to any dispensationalist but check out his offering here.
http://preteristcosmos.com/
garyn...garynorth3.html
more specifically
Rowan Berkeley | Homepage | 06.08.07 - 1:30 pm - This site is great! I read the part on The British Eugenics Establishment/Societies, it's such a tangled web but it all ties together. "Upon this revolutionary base, Sidney Webb, his wife Beatrice and playwright George Bernard Shaw built an organization which educated the intellectuals, bohemians and disillusioned clergy of England in the art of "permeating" and using the machinery of government for their own socialist ends." When she talks about the international Bankers; " 30 May 1919. . .We have already indicated that the experts of the British delegation at the Peace Conference were almost exclusively from the Milner Group and Cecil Bloc. The American group of experts, 'the Inquiry,' was manned almost completely by persons from institutions (including universities) dominated by J.P. Morgan and Company. This was not an accident. Moreover, the Milner Group has always had very close relationships with the associates of J.P. Morgan and with the various branches of the Carnegie Trust. These relationships, which are merely examples of the closely knit ramifications of international financial capitalism, were probably based on the financial holdings controlled by the Milner Group through the Rhodes Trust." - This is absolutely true. The heads of the New York Banks, J.P.Morgan, Jacob Schiff, T.Lamont, P.Warburg, Vanderlip and a few others had the Treaty of Versaille before the Senate had it. In fact the Senate couldn't get a copy of it. This comes from a Congressional hearing manuscript. It's absolutely amazing. The only thing that wasn't mentioned which I find curious is Cyrus Scofield and his Bible, the first American book publish by the Oxford University Press.
Warning : conspirology is addictive.
Anway, here is a gruesome two minute clip from al jazeera concerning a squad of zionist soldiers who it seems massacred a family in Hebron on the fifth:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M...h?
v=M_CRzdlA5To
Kubrik was especially scathing about the zionists, and refused to have any symbolism in his movies that one might associate with them.
If so, I am glad to hear it, since I admit to a weakness for Kubrick's vision, no matter how dispeptic. Each of his movies that I saw had at least one element that was embedded in my memory, which is way more than can be said for the huge majority of movies.
And hell, if they wanna fake the moonshot, what do I care either way, it's not like they killed a bunch of innocent people or stole money or land.
As movie propaganda goes, it doesn't hold candle to Exodus or sludge like that.
Israeli troops shoot Hebron family
al Jazeera, June 6, 2007
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/
...6D419BEF2BE.htm
associated 2 minute video at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M...h?
v=M_CRzdlA5To
Israeli soldiers have killed an unarmed 67-year-old Palestinian and wounded four members of his family in a raid in the West Bank town of Hebron. Yehia al-Jabari was shot dead by soldiers who raided his home on Wednesday to detain one of his sons. An Israeli army spokesman said the army was searching a house in Hebron for wanted suspects. He said that its troops were attacked by residents who threw a gas canister at them and one Palestinian man tried to grab the weapon of a soldier "who was forced to open fire". Residents of Hebron disputed the army's version of events. One witness said: "They [Israeli soldiers] came like wild dogs and when they did, they opened the door and started shooting. The soldier killed an old man, the head of the household. His wife came out screaming so the soldier shot her and then he shot his brother and then the children. Go and look at the house. It's a pool of blood." One relative of the victim said the shooting was indiscriminate. "He [an Israeli soldier] shot the boy inside and then the two girls and my wife in the other room. In every room he opened fire," he said. Witnesses at the scene accused the Israeli soldiers of firing at young children. Al-Jabari's daughter was still covered in blood when she described what happened. She said: "My mother told the soldier to stay away from him, from my father. And then he shot him and my mother yelled 'you bastard' and then he shot my mother and then shot and wounded my brother Rajeh. They shot my brothers and the children."
And hell, if they wanna fake the moonshot, what do I care either way, it's not like they killed a bunch of innocent people or stole money or land.
As movie propaganda goes, it doesn't hold candle to Exodus or sludge like that.
lobro | 06.08.07 - 3:58 pm | #
Lobro, the trouble with the possibility of a moon landing hoax is that this would be a diversion from the very real killing of innocent people in Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos. National vanity played a very secondary role in Nixon's desperate final years: it was about survival of his Presidency, the Dollar and ultimately American hegemony. Do you see something 9-11esque to it as I do?
They're just all crazy, the Israelis, the Christian fundamentalist, they're just crazy. It was the Rothschild's who funded Scofield. The only people that will benefit from all this will be the Banker, why aren’t the Jews realizing this? As a group they are smarter than the Christians.
Good transcription, Rowan.
To me, the telling comment came at the end when the commentator remarked that while it may seem shocking to a newcomer, it is only one incident, one family, meanwhile people have had to live with it for over 40 years.
I would add, for 2,500 years, since the IDF killers only followed the letter of Talmud.
Fear the Lord and shoot the kids.
If the moon landing is fake and I'm happy to take you guy's word for it, then it also demonstrates how easily the public can be fooled. When was it that the Holohaux came on '72?
st. talmud, the patron saint of liars, haters, deceivers, and killers.
Then follow it up with "Women of Israeli Army" video.
AFAIK, 'Holocaust' entered the vernacular and the superego of the masses after the 1979 TV series of the same name.
X. that maybe true in Europe but in the early 70's I took a summer course at my High School, entiled "The Brutality of Nazi Germany" and it was all about the Holocaust.
I thought the miniseries was aired earlier than 79. At any rate, I couldn't even pronounce Holocaust until then, it was in the same category as quiche.
I just did some calculations regarding the Polish missile shield and Putin totally unmasked their true intentions when he offered Azerbaijian as an alternative site.
Any missile fired from Iran to mainland USA must pass over Aserbaijian.
No missile fired from Iran towards USA passes over Polish territory.
The closest is for trajectory aimed at eastern seabord (Wash/NY) which goes over Lithuania, the total path being ~10,000 km.
However, to reach West coast, the trajectory goes directly over Moscow, then almost over North Pole, Canadian Nunavut and BC, ~12k.
It is nowhere near Poland, yet quite visible from Azerbaijian.
So, what does the Neocon In Chief do? He chooses Poland and clearly shows his hand to Russians.
Brilliant move by Putin, he knows that Jews are targeting Russia big time, Iran is only desserts.
Super idiotic move by Poles, piss off Europe, get whacked by Russia while sucking Bush.
Xym - I guess you don't do commemorations but today is the 40th anniversary of the israeli attempted take-out of USS Liberty.
righteo | 06.08.07 - 3:59 am | #
Indeed, righteo, Xym seems to be a right bashful virgin when it comes to commemorations. This week is also the 40th anniversary of the six-day war by Israel against the Arabs: June 1967.
But there are definitely far less bashful folks:
Vancouver Sun Newspaper Eclipsed by Activists
For immediate release, June 7, 2007 (PALESTINE MEDIA COLLECTIVE)
VANCOUVER - Today media activists eclipsed the Vancouver Sun's Zionist line. The Palestine Media Collective distributed 12,000 copies of a doppelganger edition of the CanWest flagship to morning commuters in Vancouver and Victoria to point out the anti-Palestinian bias of the newspaper.
. . .
Today's action was also timed as a protest against 40 years of brutal Israeli military occupation in the West Bank, Gaza and the Golan Heights, Handel explained. This week CanWest papers have been running celebratory pieces extolling the great Israeli victory in 1967 with no mention of the hundreds of thousands of refugees caused by Israeli ethnic cleansing nor the more than 50 Security Council resolutions over the last 40 years condemning the illegal Israeli occupation and its colonisation of Palestinian land.
For images of the spoof handouts, click here,
and here.
I love that spoof press release for Indigo, Chapters and Coles, "Partners in Apartheid". Whatever you do, don't patronize your favourite book store!
Three cheers for the Palestine Media Collective!
racism is a term that obscures facts
Profoundly true, and doubtless that's why our Rowan uses it to smear those who disagree with him. To him, I think, it's approximately equal to "opponent of the genocidal Zionist project".
Or is it conceivable that there are two Rowan Berkeleys, one who posts items about Zionists massacring entire families of goyim and another who regards such actions as not worth mentioning because the "Israeli Jewish nation" has a right to exist?
Too late for missile shield. Who says they have´nt already landed? The flying discs.
Off topic: I came across this web site that has several downloadable biblical language keyboards and, recalling that some of you are looking for something of this sort, I called their support line. The sales person, after checking with her "super" said, yes, conceivably you could download the free libronix engine and one of the keyboards and use it in that context and then, cut and paste into Word or some other w.p. but it won't work directly in Word. I don't have a Windows machine so I couldn't try it; can't vouch that it works. http://www.logos.com/support/dow...loads/
keyboards
9.11.. was the start shot of an dilettantish, out of all proportions, "pair of tongs" strategy against Russia, that got bogged down on Euphrat and Tigris. The nightmare of a Talmudic world ghetto gone back to hell.
The turning point was the expulsion of the oligarch hyenas from Russia. Now Israel is the last refuge open for the desperados.
The Topol-M and Bulava missiles have already defeated any missile shield, now or in the future. Even if the so-called missile defense works perfectly, as drawn on paper, it has no chance at all of stopping these scramjet, maneuverable reentry vehicles.
Read:
http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber...r.com/node/
2018
It pisses me off when I must eat stuff that has that KSA kosher stamp of approval and there must be others like me.
So here is a business idea: Lardass Inc., We Dekosherize Food For A Busy Antisemite.
lobro | 06.08.07 - 9:54 am | #
Lobro you have a gift for these incredibly fine ideas. Who knows, it just might take off like a rocket (of the class "Sunburn", not the "Apollo"). Certainly it's a sure bet, for my part, that I would stock up my pantry with nothing but Lardass.
Now Israel is the last refuge open for the desperados.
Fritz | 06.08.07 - 10:03 pm | #
Don't forget Bliar's UK! Didn't they offer refuge to Berezovsky?
Or is it conceivable that there are two Rowan Berkeleys, one who posts items about Zionists massacring entire families of goyim and another who regards such actions as not worth mentioning because the "Israeli Jewish nation" has a right to exist?
traducteur | 06.08.07 - 7:42 pm | #
Traducteur, I believe you are mistaken in your criticism. You know that RB and I have had hard words in the past. I have had occasion to ruminate on that and now am led to conclude that RB is an OK guy after all. Why? Only my sense of it, is all.
But he has his own (sometimes really annoying) style; that I grant you. In addition and equally annoying, I believe it will not be his way, to respond to your criticism. You have to really needle him like I did, to get a reaction. And then what?
Has everyone forgotten that today was the 40th anniversary of Israel's attack on the U.S.S. Liberty?
Cal - Rowan's commentary is often cryptic but interesting to us materialistic scientific types who often don't appreciate the occult (=hidden) thought dimensions behind human events. Sort of parting the veils to to speak.
Cal - Rowan's commentary is often cryptic but interesting to us materialistic scientific types who often don't appreciate the occult (=hidden) thought dimensions behind human events. Sort of parting the veils to to speak.
righteo | 06.09.07 - 12:16 am | #
Yes righteo; I must agree.
Hey! I see this new notation on the holoscan doohickey: 2 visitors online. That must be you and me! Jeez, that's not a lot!
Ladies and gentlemen, ŕ propos de tout et de rien, I submit my very own holohaiku:
Hug that Holoco$t:
Exploiting phantoms deftly
Springs mountains of loot.
But this is as nothing. I incline my head to others infinitely better. The very best holohaiku I have ever seen in my life, was submitted by the intrepid Kapitaenleutnant Ahmed N'bongo Muller of the U666, Sea of Tranquility - an occasional participant on usenet many years ago:
Proof?
~~~~~
Poof!
Not exactly conforming to haiku rules, but highly impressive just the same. No?
And another, a very delicate piece of work, also from usenet:
Gas chambers depart
Like shadow from light
I must cry!
by: Masatake "Hava Naguila" Asanomoto
(aka as the butcher of Mindanao)
New submissions are cordially invited!
hollyhocks I know
I see them in my mind's eye
holyhoax I don't know
I leave it with a sigh
My holoscan says 4 visitors online
plus an appeal YOUR AD HERE.
Ah...I'll give it a try.
AhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhJeeew!
Gazoontite!
Or maybe?
Holo light
Burns bright
Counting reparations.
No? I'll just keep getting it wrong until I get it right.
Deceptions labor
The chosen favor
Washed my hands who knew!
It's late. I'll sleep on the Haiku. Maybe it will come to me in a nightmare.
Like loaves and fishes:
Passing of six million jews
Leaves more than before.
I think I'll have to suffer for the Muse of Haiku by drinking a few more Guinnesses.
That way I'll see more things in a clear and virgin manner.
I got my hebrew keyboard software from another biblical hebrew university site. It works OK, but not inside of all applications (just like the one described above).
An Ohio man says he has located Osama bin Laden in the United States and wants to claim the U.S. government's $25 million reward. Using an online person search built from phone directories and other public records, Thomas Potter of Olmsted Falls, Ohio, turned up three listings for "Usama bin Laden." The first listing put the al Qaeda leader at the California headquarters of media giant FOX Entertainment Group. The second placed bin Laden in the office of a Bethesda, Md., Internet firm owned by the son of a former Defense Department official. And the third pinpointed bin Laden's secret hideout as an unidentified location in Hermitage, Tenn. A self-described "househusband" and 9/11 skeptic -- "I am not a 9/11 conspiracy theorist," he says, "I just do not believe a word of the government's 9/11 conspiracy theory" -- Potter made his discovery this Sunday morning, as part of what he calls a years-long research effort to debunk the "official" version of the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks.
With regard to what Traducteur (who is one of my few remaining links with the leftist PeacePalestine site)
said : first of all, I do not believe in "rights". Secondly, just as a matter of brute fact, there is a large spectrum of Jewish Israelis with no desire to defend the existing (settler-dominated) status quo, and I consider them (these anti-settler Israel iJews) to be perfectly legitimate interlocutors.
although i still have some reservations...
like zyclon-B tabs
nasty halocauastic fumes
exterminate truth
*Zyklon with a k.
like Zyklon pellets
nasty holocaustic fumes
exterminate truth.
sheesh.. can't spell either tonight
The glories of jewish art in contemporary Germany:
http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/
ges...,487431,00.html
more neocon-lite shit from AntiWar.com:
It was always more than a little strange, given the materiel involved, that Putin chose the issue of a modest anti-missile site the U.S. wants to locate in Poland and the Czech Republic. The site was slated to have about 10 missile interceptors, which wouldn't begin to be a deterrent against the vast arsenal Russia still possesses, estimated by various authorities at between 5,000 and 7,000 missiles.
Alan Bock, 'Whats Up With Putin?"
http://www.antiwar.com/bock/?
art...articleid=11108
They'll have to change their name to AntiOtherPeoplesWars.com
It seems Blair and Putin had that meeting after all, which i thought had been called off.
Tony Blair told Vladimir Putin yesterday that the world was becoming more and more afraid of Russia’s behaviour at home and abroad. And as he left his last G8 summit in Germany Mr Blair predicted a lengthy period of deep freeze in relations between Russia and the West. The two men, who have been sparring with each other from a distance for weeks, had a tense, hour-long encounter in the Caroline Room at the Kempinski Grand Hotel. Mr Blair emerged alone, a fixed smile on his face. But when he spoke to reporters later at Rostock airport shortly before flying home he did not attempt to disguise that it had been a hard encounter or that he had been frustrated by the outcome....
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle1907051.ece
That Bock guy is just a harmless moron, look at the beard.
This is good though, from their blog:
On June 10-11, United for Peace and Justice :
http://unitedforpeace.org/
is taking part in a rally in DC urging an Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. You can read all about the rally here :
http://www.endtheoccupation.org/...cle.php?
id=1281
Now, have a look at this article from ynet :
http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/
Comp...3409873,00.html
and keep in mind, they’re talking about the same rally. Classy take, right? I especially like the cropped AP stock photo with swastikas prominently displayed in the background.
I just did some calculations regarding the Polish missile shield and Putin totally unmasked their true intentions when he offered Azerbaijian as an alternative site.
Any missile fired from Iran to mainland USA must pass over Aserbaijian.
No missile fired from Iran towards USA passes over Polish territory.
The closest is for trajectory aimed at eastern seabord (Wash/NY) which goes over Lithuania, the total path being ~10,000 km.
However, to reach West coast, the trajectory goes directly over Moscow, then almost over North Pole, Canadian Nunavut and BC, ~12k.
It is nowhere near Poland, yet quite visible from Azerbaijian.
So, what does the Neocon In Chief do? He chooses Poland and clearly shows his hand to Russians.
Brilliant move by Putin, he knows that Jews are targeting Russia big time, Iran is only desserts.
Super idiotic move by Poles, piss off Europe, get whacked by Russia while sucking Bush.
lobro | 06.08.07 - 5:36 pm | #
Sorry if this is a dumb question but why can't they fire the missles eastward?
Yes they can, Shamil, and the same missile shield will be installed in Alaska, Hawaii and the American east coast.
The issue here is acquiring the capacity to neutralize Russian nuclear second-strike capability; the basis of a stable system in a context of nuclear deterrence doctrine.
When you neutralize second-strike capabilities, mutually assured destruction stop being a deterrent. This shifts the strategic situation from one of deterrence, to one of unilateral 'compellence', to use Thomas Schelling's barbarism.
Compellence is the capability to coerce anyone else through nuclear blackmail, i.e., first-strike capability.
Preamble to the new NWO Charter.
"We hold these truths to be self evident, that in the MAD end all men are cremated equal."
There is an article in Asia Times by an Indian diplomat which gives a very good overview of 'the new Cold War' :
http://atimes.com/atimes/Central...a/
IF07Ag01.html
Also, Lord Patel has kindly reminded us that Gordon Is Gay.
Bad news this morning:
http://chronicle.com/news/articl...-played-no-
role
I see that Finkelstein still features (stuck to the top of his menu, if fact) an interview with Raul Hilberg containing the following slander against Paul Rassinier, which is just as culpable as Dershowitz' slanders against Finkelstein are:
There was a Frenchman who was already in print in the 1960s. Half of his book was devoted to me. It was a neo-Nazi publication. As soon as my book, The Destruction of the European Jews, was out in 1961, I became a target of these groups.
With regards to the atimes article
The public isn't buying the War on Terror as much as hoped so now the US revives the cold war. China is right to side with Russia and so should all of Europe, old and new. Isolate the US. - That’s one level, however if this is just an east vs. west, left vs. right show to bleed economies Russia will stand by the sidelines if Syria or Iran are attacked. Time will tell.
Canada Star Wars
antimissiles point north
people say not
buggered if I'm going to count syllables this morning
The whole of the Avnery-Pappe debate, transcribed:
http://toibillboard.info/
Transcr...nscript_eng.htm
Sorry if this is a dumb question but why can't they fire the missles eastward?
Shamil
Matter of connecting two points by a shortest route ... one could connect them by a spiral but it
1) carries a huge fuel penalty, and
2) gives the defender time to scramble interceptors and shoot the missile down.
Now, a result in differential geometry states that (simplifying to a sphere) the shortest route between any two points on the surface is uniquely determined by a great circle passing through them (a great circle shares its centre with Earth).
Anything else is wasteful meandering.
All the great circles connecting Iran and US slice the globe near the North Pole.
Traducteur,
I just made my decision which obedience school to send my dog to ...
Informed of the news this evening, Mr. Dershowitz said, “It was the right decision, proving that DePaul University is indeed a first-rate university"
Rassinier himself is Jewish.
A haiku is simple, starkly elegant, but damnably hard to write. At least - for me it is.
For interest's sake, here are two references:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiku
http://www.ahapoetry.com/haiku.htm
The traditional format is 5- 7 - 5 syllables.
I liked smeknovo's holohaiku, which shows a lot of promise and tickes one's funnybone!
Like loaves and fishes:
Passing of six million jews
Leaves more than before.
I agree, smekh nailed that one
I also like Salman's haiku
like Zyklon pellets
nasty holocaustic fumes
exterminate truth.
Juan | 06.09.07 - 2:32 am | #
Juan, this is a very good try. But you are carrying a lot of holoschlockian baggage that's been hardwired into you, it's in your subconscious, and that comes through even in your haiku.
Zyklon B fumes are not "nasty". They are positively lifesaving. Zyklon B, the commercial cyanide-based pesticide, was widely used not only in every camp to decrease the risk of catastophic epidemics in the pre-DDT days, but also in military barracks and industrial facilities ever since the 1920s. It is still with us today, through normal over-the-counter sales.
My parents and I were ourselves "Zyklon-B'd", like most refugees put into work camps during WW2. (That is, our ragged clothing was). The Germans also gave us facilities to wash ourselves and saw to it that we kept our wooden barracks spotlessly clean. All this saved lives.
Incidentally, it is perhaps not widely known that personal hygiene and cleanliness were not part of the culture of the Eastern European Jew.
In the Babylonian Talmud, 1934-48 Soncino Edition, Volume I, Tract Sabbath, page 20, the wisdom of the Sages teaches thus: "One who searches his garments and finds a louse shall not crack it, but simply rub it with his fingers and throw it away (on the Sabbath). Says R. Huna: This should also be done even on week days, out of self-respect".
With this kind of religions teaching, how do you suppose ignorant superstitious people react, when given a bar of soap and required to go wash themselves and their clothing? Is it any wonder that Anne Frank died of typhus or of whatever other disease is transmitted by lice?
It is only a fable that bug spray was massively used to kill human beings. There are better ways for doing that. But, eventually, you'll get the hang of it.
Patton was required to meet with local Jewish representatives as part of his post war duties. Afterwards, he would invariably puke his guts out due to the stench and overall repulsiveness of said representatives.
I'm sure Salman could write a great Haiku, if he'd actually written one, lobro
lolol...haikus or not...I'm taking a short break from all of this - but some1 PLEASE help out Chris Bollyn win his case - www.iamthewitness.com...he's been one of the main guys involved in exposing Jewish masterminding of 9-11. Same thing goes with Carl Camron of FOX news and Paulo Lima of the Bergen Records amongst others.
Juan, this is a very good try. But you are carrying a lot of holoschlockian baggage that's been hardwired into you, it's in your subconscious, and that comes through even in your haiku.
Possibly. I am still more comfortable neutral. No rush to sell your soul, right?
I think the jews must have invented repressed memory syndrome.
"You must have done something really horrible to me as evidenced by how screwed up I am. It had to have been something really really horrible though, so terrible in fact that I have blocked it out. So if you had any integrity you would step forward, confess, and accept your condemnation like a man, or at the least, prove that your cruelty is not just a figment of my imagination. A little bit of sympathy (and a lot of money) might help for starters"
It doesn't surprise me to see salman trying to infect everyone with loser syndrome.
look at you rowan, what has your ass given to the world lately besides muttering gibberish on xympho's site?
And honestly, we ALL need to show Chris Bollyn mad support and spread his research info to as many people as possible...and give further more exposure to his encounter with law enforcement.
...with jewish law enforcement that is*
...and btw...does any1 know of CSIS and Israel training police officers? As a matter of fact, a couple of Arab guys were harassed yesterday night by police, and even though they came out clean without any charges on them - the police decided to give their info to CSIS since one was born in Palestine and the other in Saudi Arabia. Is there any collaboration between CSIS, Israel, and the police over harassing individuals of Arabic and/or other Middle Eastern background?
Debunking 911 "expert" Debunking.
http://innworldreport.net/video_...php?2007-06-
07i
The get-Bollyn campaign was well organised. The evening before his first court appearance CNN showed a program in which Bollyn said "I'm not an anti-semite" and CNN had a jewess say "That's what they all say". Bollyn's 2-seconds were edited from a 2-hour interview made a couple of weeks before. It was intended to put him in a bad light at a critical time.
Why Bollyn thought CNN would give him a fair showing beats me. His better instinct should have said NO to any television interview that was not live & unedited. They set a trap for him and he walked right in to it.
I saw the Bollyn interview. He looked like a sheep in a car's headlights. For a journalist, he was awfully naive to think they'd treat him fairly. So Salman, give some thought to the possibility he's a plant.
But what caught my eye was how they bracketed the interview with screenshots of http://www.jewsdidwtc.com which seems to have morphed into a placeholder site. Now if all the 'racist' sites are still up and running, how come this one disappeared so soon after the Bollyn interview, on May 11 to be exact? I did a whois search and this is what I came up with.
Domain Name: JEWSDIDWTC.COM
Registrar: GO DADDY SOFTWARE, INC.
Whois Server: whois.godaddy.com
Referral URL: http://registrar.godaddy.com
Name Server: NS49.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
Name Server: NS50.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
Status: clientRenewProhibited
Status: clientTransferProhibited
Status: clientUpdateProhibited
Status: clientDeleteProhibited
Updated Date: 11-may-2007
Creation Date: 08-mar-2006
Expiration Date: 08-mar-2008
Beware fake sites that look like they were set up by the ADL, lol.
It's a bit ironic, warning salman to beware the possibility of a plant - salman IS a plant.
Man From Atlan - Chris Bollyn does have mysterious connections to the Jews. He speaks fluent Hebrew, and his ex-wife was probably in the Mossad as he claims. Or maybe, it's one of their own that is outing them. We don't know for certain. But have you ever considered John Kaminski being a plant? His site was off for some time now. http://www.johnkaminski.com He doesn't seem to provide any statements either as to why his site is off now.
And rowan can go jerk off to his fantasy like delusions - yes, I'm a plant. And you're a vegetable. Or a banana plant.
Henry's latest article makes a lot of sense: The Jews are their own worst enemy.
I doubt a plant would give out his cell phone # but maybe that's just me.
But Kaminski? I think he got dumped by his girl friend and has always had financial problems, that's all. So if anyone wants to help him, pls. do.
Well DBS called Kaminski a plant becaused he bashed his own tribesmen.
I received a note from Kaminski two days ago. One of the few people in this world who I honestly feel some personal sympathy for. What a whuppin he takes.
Why you all chase each other down this gurgling plug-hole of nonsense, I cannot think. Doubtless 'salman' will endeavour to show that there is nothing beneath it but racism.
Salman
First I've heard that Rassimer was Jewish. Your source? Hope it's not the same that says there are no, even autonomously run,diffused alQaida, because 14 Iraqi policemen
were killed today and al Qaida is suspected.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/
20070...aq_070605170697
I am sure someone will claim that my dismissal of 'salman' as a mere racist, pretending to be a muslim because he was broguht up as one though he clearly is one no longer, since racism is not a Muslim trait, contradicts my remark that 'racist' is a term that obscures facts. I was of course speaking of Xymph's description of the Occidental Quarterly as 'racist', which precisely negates the fact that every single article in the Occidental Journal is in one way or another a dissection of what (if not dissected, as in 'salman's case) would indeed be 'racism', but, since it is dissected and that is what the journal is all about, is no longer 'racism' - a mere prejudice, as in 'salman's case, which runs away from both intellectual and moral effort.
Mike Piper on his Jun 4 show says Bollyn does not deserve jail sentence--but he should retire quietly from politics and address a suspected alcohol problem.
Rowan Berkeley | Homepage | 06.09.07 - 4:02 pm |
What are you talking about?
The Occidental Quarterly is full of articles that dissect the sort of unreflective concepts people like 'salman' use. You should maybe read it.
It's a bit ironic, warning salman to beware the possibility of a plant - salman IS a plant.
--------
That is a fact. One way to tell is his lack of Islamic Sharia. Too many holes.
Started reading the Barbara Aho article on The Council for National Interest. Slowed down when I got to "Roger Pearson. . .united the ex-Nazis and Nazi sympathizers of the Europe in the World Anti-Communist League. . ." Stopped when the discussion got to "Privatization". The material is dated and most of the individuals mentioned in it are
d e a d, starting with John Denver. Barb has been, as they say, overtaken by events.
racism is not a Muslim trait
Same goes for Christianity, yet ...
And no Muslim should be excommunicated for opposing Sharia, jut like Catholics using birth control.
I've been reading Salman's stuff for a long time and his passion is real, if childish at times.
He is pro-action, most of us here are pro-talk, to be honest.
If a troll was among us good enough to avoid spotting, he'd be overqualified for this job.
99% of posters here, myself included are unlikely to be budged by any sweet-talk, it is show me the facts and of course, trolls never have facts, otherwise they wouldn't be trolls by definition.
So, a quality troll would be better employed in an environment more receptive to propaganda.
What would a troll hope to achieve here, convert the likes of Cal, Cjenn or Kassandra into Noahide Goys?
No one is excommunicating here. I'm showing only the facts. BTW, you don't need to be a Muslim to discuss Sharia. Go to library!
Pardon my ignorance, but is Noahide and Talmudic the same thing? I don't want to have to read a book to find out.
What is that draws you, lobro, Sal's entries, besides calling everyone a 'Jew'? And since when became a crime to be a Jew?
The only reason people like Sal here is because of his useful idiocy.
Salman's a Bears fan, what does that say? Give him a break.
I took exception to Sal as well for using "Jew" in a pejorative sense.
He apologizes, then goes right back to it.
I put it down to youthful rage and eagerness to see some action.
The fact is, I like to see passion in people like Sal and Cjenn, even though they sometimes sputter and froth in anger - it is quite understandable to me.
I would like Sal that no one chooses his parents and therfore being born a Jew is not a crime, soaking up Talmudic sludge and living under its spell is. Weakness is no excuse for lack of morals or contempt of truth and it is this last point that I am hammering home with majority of my posts.
However, none of this makes him a sayan.
Poland was very forthright about those proposed missiles. Several of its spokesmen said that the Iran story was nonsense and they would accept them only if they were pointed towards Russia. And given its history, Poland has reason enough to be concerned with its neighbor. As any and all of Russia's neighbors do.
I find it rather anachronistic that some of the people who comment here still think of the world in black and white, good Putin bad Bush. For starters, Putin did not get rid of the oligarchs. He just replaced one group with another, with a group that is utterly loyal to him. Take a look at http://templetonthorp.com/en/news1461
"Under Puting's rule, the balance of power between the state and the oligarchs has shifted beyond recognition, as the RSPP (Russian Union of Industrialists and Enterpreneors) has gone from setting the agenda to following Krlemlin's lead."
Regarding Azerbaijan, the Soviet base there is a big thorn in the side of the Azeris. They do not want it there, and negotiations have been going on for some time to get rid of it. There is no love lost between the Russians and the Azeris.
The Azeris are closely related to Iranians. Their languages are close. They would certainly not favor any attack on Iran. I seem to remember that the US has some facility in that country, but it is doubtful that the Azeris would let the US use their territory for any operation against Iran.
There are a lot of national interests at play here. The world was easy when it was just the Soviet Union and the US.
Juan, just to be brief: there is a big body of literature out there on the subject, digging up some old threads here will give you all you can handle.
In essence, Noahide laws are slave laws drawn up specifically for gentile brown nosers (also known as Righteous Gentiles, such as the ones who worship at H-C altar) and are equally specifically non bindinding to Jews.
According to Talmud, a Jew can, and is in fact encouraged to break any Noahide law with impunity since his is the master race, and the reason Salman has trouble distinguishing between the two concepts.
Truth to tell, so do I at times.
Azeris speak a Turkish dialect, as far as I know. Their spite is reserved for Armenians, who don't get along with Russians either, so who knows?
A kind of Farsi is spoken in large parts of Afghanistan, Uzbekistan and Tajikistan, again to the best of my understanding.
The whole region is a kaleidoscope of weird loyalties and alliances.
I shouldn't have bolded bindinding ... nothing to be proud of.
lobro, though I said to Juan, earlier, and on another post, that I had not met any Mark Twains here , I must say that you are the closest I have heard.
They can break the Noahide laws with impunity? Murder, adultery, idolatry.
Eating parts of live animals? I pictured that being the human female... umm never mind that.
So the Noahide laws are for the non jew convert? Ok.
I'll just stay with the Ten Commandments.
Well you'll be the only one, Juan.
The definition of racism is pretty fluid, is it not? I see it used primarily to stifle debate. So scholarly dissections are not racist, but Salman's inchoate rage, is racist and non-muslim? Funny how I see the opposite here. As someone who grew up in the Muslim milieu, they are quite capable of being as racist as any one else, regardless of what they say about Islam.
Personally I see that Islam at its purest is not racist, but some who read chapter 17 of the Quran, Bani Israil, might argue otherwise.
And dot, there are many Muslims who disagree with Sharia, or interpret it their own way, but that does not make them non-muslim.
lobro, you're probably right about the language. I thought that since part of the country was part of Iran at one time, that there was a language similarity. And the fact that Zoroaster was theoretically born there. That they have a dispute with the Armenians over Nagorno-Karabakh is true. That area is still an unsettled issue.
There is an English language newspaper that is worth taking a look at, from time to time
http://www.bakusun.az/
Some guys have misconceptions here about what I said. I think lobro understands where I'm coming from.
1. I am not diametrically opposed to Shari'a in most instances. It's rather the Judaic elements that I consider to be un-Islamic and fabricated and not part of Islam. This is a theological discussion. I've even suggested that cutting off the hands of thieves is not necessarily a bad idea for certain times and places - and if implemented in some of our crime infested neighbourhoods would definitely do a great job of social action.
2.lobro is right, it's not a crime to be a "Jew" as no one chooses which parents they are born from. By making the "jewish" identity become an ethnic problem - it became impossible for Jews or Israelites to get out of their mindset...it was the perfect entrapment setup by the rabbis - God's Chosen. One can easily get out of the fold of Christianity or even Islam if they don't have basic faith in God. BUT here's the most important of issues: identifying Jews involved in criminality and connecting the dots and their network together. Chris Bollyn and DBS and Eric Huffschmidt has done a great job at that.
Pardon my ignorance, but is Noahide and Talmudic the same thing? I don't want to have to read a book to find out.
Juan | 06.09.07 - 5:17 pm | #
Look, Juan, you will always be ignorant if you do not read. You cannot have instant gratification except if you jerk off.
The short answer to your question is YES.
The slightly more intellectual answer to your question is: see www.come-and-hear.com
Search for noahide.
Kassandra, what else is there to say? Well put!
I do read a lot. But i don't particularly want to read the Talmud any more than I have to.
Your information might be interesting sometimes Cal, if it wasn't always so condescending.
Besides, I was really looking for an answer in context from previous posts, not some intellectual hyperbole.
Between wikipedia and lobro, I got what I was looking for.
So thanks Cal... for nothing, again.
and if implemented in some of our crime infested neighbourhoods would definitely do a great job of social action.
Yip. Nip crime right in the bud. Just like the death penalty has practically eliminated violent crime in the US.
Where is it working? Iran?
Sharia law has the same problem as justice everywhere, a terribly corrupt application of the justice system, fraught with dogma and political agenda.
I cannot think of a more crime infested neighborhood that the US Congress, at least not on this continent.
Our parliamentarians are doing their best (worst) but are still wearing short pants by comparison.
Chopping off hands would sure solve the greasy palms problem.
Let's have a round of applause for our President!
Thup, thup, thup
right on lobro.
With that den of thieves is where it could work wonders.
The come-and-hear link was a good, Cal
It did make your short answer a bit more meaningful.
AFAIK, 'Holocaust' entered the vernacular and the superego of the masses after the 1979 TV series of the same name.
Xenophile | 06.08.07 - 4:17 pm | #
Xeno, I went to one of the most judaicized universities in North America bar none, McGill University in Nontreal - Bronfman country - in the late 50s and early 60s. Believe it or not (I hang my head in shame) I had no awareness of the sense of the propaganda at the time. No kidding, guys!
I was as much a sucker for it as, say, Juan is today. Likely even worse. I was studying engineering. It was hard, it was serious stuff, and politics was the farthest thing from my mind. (Is that a valid excuse for me? NO, NO, NO!! What a Dummkopf I was: what a truly dumb goy!)
But, in my time in academe, we heard very little of this bs. I graduated in 1962 and, at the time, the term "holocaust" signified zilch. It took a huge propaganda schtick, probably the "Shoah" bit plus a whole lot of coercion in the right places, to burn this horseshit into the goys' conscience.
When I was an undergraduate, our engineering profs were . . . knwledgeable profs who socked it to me with exquisite brutality interspersed with my frat parties (and did it elegantly, technically, very personally and far more often than I thought absolutely necessary ) - which was actually their job.
Afterwards, as a practical result, I never designed a bridge or structure or electronics or power transmission system that failed. But then, afterwards, that grade of outstanding prof or Dean - what a Dean we had! - went "elsewhere".
What makes me so rueful upon thinking back on it is that, through my passivity, I actually aided the change for the worse and helped the world to reach the helpless state in which we are right now.
lobro is right, it's not a crime to be a "Jew" as no one chooses which parents they are born from.
And how do you know this is true?
Hey, I think I will stick with these Thalidomide poppers, it should be a blast!
I do read a lot. But i don't particularly want to read the Talmud any more than I have to.
Your information might be interesting sometimes Cal, if it wasn't always so condescending.
. . .
So thanks Cal... for nothing, again.
Juan | 06.09.07 - 9:25 pm | #
Look Juan - maybe you don't read the right stuff. Otherwise you wouldn't forever be asking questions on this board, would you?
Let me assure you, the Talmud is the very last thing in the world that I personally would want to read. For boredom and shattering nonsense, it is truly impossible to beat. But, when you realize that within that irredeemable mountain of shit, what they are talking about is the future of your very own life; your life and that of your loved ones; that ought to make your ears perk up. If it does not, that is your own loss.
In any case, I take it seriously. Jews do, too.
You should certainly appreciate, by now, that I do not write really to answer your posts. I know perfectly well that you will retain nothing from my remarks. You are simply too dense to be able to do so. But in responding to you, I am not really addressing you in person. I am addressing others who read my postings on this board, including lurkers who read the comments and may never participate in the discussions. Of these, there may well be many.
I believe amongst these people are those - there must necessarily be - who are quite a bit smarter than you are; and in any case, whatever their intellectual capacity, they will be able to test out my comments fairly and put them to use as they see fit. That test is as much as I would hope for, in my own quest for Truth. It is to such persons that my remarks are really addressed, and not to you.
As far as I am concerned, you are just a useful sounding foil, a tangible measure of invincible ignorance. From your position, intelligence-wise, the only possible way to go is up. And that is how I see it.
How very magnanimous of you. I had no idea.
This must be everyone else then:
I Timothy 3:1-5,7 "But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of god; holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."
No question about it. You would think I read all the wrong stuff.
I have a bit of good news for you, however. The jews are not going to rule the world. Not in their present condition... the only question is who will still be around to see that.
I realise that we have all spent the last couple of years debunking the idea that anyone other than 'the Jews' might be responsible for the eve of destruction quality of current geopolitics. However, I am inclining to the view that, since Israel, like all other western states, is ruled by a military oligarchy which beneath the bluster shows no more concern with the survival of israel's jews than with the survival of anyone else (iranians, arabs, muslims, americans, etc) we should revise our assessment.
Cal - there is no wrong in asking questions. Asking questions with the intent to learn from the answers is the path to learning.
I always keep in mind Socrates' point that one cannot learn until one knows that one knows nothing.
Asking the right questions is the start to learning the right answers.
A person is handicapped if they are afraid to ask questions because they are afraid of appearing ignorant.
One of the benefits of education is it gives one the right to be ignorant but wanting to know more.
I don't understand the claim that the UK, or Canada, or any EU country is "ruled by a military oligarchy", RB.
By the way, what was the Dorje Sogden affair you mentioned?
Zoroaster, like Homer, is fought over by many different regions. Khorasan is perhaps the most favoured candidate.
What's not to understand? Politicians are bought and paid for by the arms lobby. Everywhere - throughout the 'West'. Including Israel.
Just think - peace is a funny thing ... when I was about 13 my half-sister (same father, different mother) took me on a CND march. Within a few days or weeks my father had been informed of this, at his 'UNESCO job' in Paris, and had written her a furious letter. Who informed him? MI5, I assume. Why? Because they regarded his work as security related, and the mere fact of the son of one of his ex-wives going on a CDN march threatened his security clearance.
I would add that jewish apocalypticism is no different from any other apocalypticism the arms barons may decide is helpful to creating the necessary climate to cause a new world war.
By the way, I have just started on Thomas Thompson's latest book, "The Messiah Myth", in which he seeks to show that Jesus, like Moses, is a mere literary stock figure, not a historical reality at all.
So the arms manufacturers, not military brass or spook gangs, rule? And to the exclusion of more powerful economic interests?
what would be a more powerful economic interest? Don't just say, the bankers, because I think we must try to grasp the possible significance of the marxist idea, that physical production is needed to generate profit. The question therefore becomes, what sort of physical production can take place in huge quantities without improving the standard of living of the workers and thus increasing their class power?
as for 'military brass and spook gangs', it doesn't take long to find innumerable websites in which their dependence on their various sorts of high-tech backers becomes clear.
Here is the ADL's anti-boycott campaign, by the way :
http://www.adl.org/boycott/
boyco...boycott_ads.asp
Parodying Marx, class emancipation is the cockgaine of the masses.
Military hardware is essentially industrial waste since it brings no sustainable benefit for a society. It is a Ponzi scheme whose logical conclusion is war. This allows the scam to be played another round, and with bigger margins.
RB, by focusing on the "real" side of production, you underplay the financial, hedge-funded, cross ownership-dominated, structure of capital and debt markets.
I fail to see how bringing 'class' into the analysis of power in post-industrial societies. If there is no widely spread class-consciousness, then there is no 'class' other than in the head of marxist intellectuals, propagandists and useful idiots.
In the American economy, everyone has got a stake in military industrial Moloch. Most owe their livelihood to it, and are of course undisturbed in living in a platonic cave.
The miracle of propaganda is to create the illusion responsibility in a so-called democracy is diffuse hiding the highly concentrated nature power, economic and political.
What production is physical and what isn't, and why does it matter? I don't accept the labour theory of value.
Plenty of things other than armaments are produced in large quantities without improving the standard of living of the workers, unless you assume one's standard of living is automatically improved by buying something.
everything they say about '911blogger' seems to be true : I have only posted there three or four times in my entire life, but I seem to have been barred from posting. last thing I put there was this, which seems to have alerted them :
http://www.911blogger.com/node/9...#comment-
149595
It's impossible to draw a clear line between physical and ideological production - for instance, at what point does a book or a CD fall?
I neither accept nor reject the labour theory of value, since the argument behind it is basically circular - it starts from the thing to be proved. However, although financial sectors certain CONTROL industrial ones, they remain dependent upon them for actual sales which generate profit. Merely printing money by itself is not enough, you have to use it somehow - even playing the stock market just creates paper values which cannot be cashed in except by buying real goods.
Services are not physical, and yet 'real', smekhovo. The distinction between 'real' and 'financial' sides of the economy relate to the fact that credit has got the uncanny capacity to leverage itself manyfold -an expansion that subverts the principle that money is a reserve of value- and dominate 'real' productive enterprises.
It's not a question of printing money any more - what previous generations would have recognised as related to money is now just an underprivileged back corner of the credit and futures universe.
Agreed, the money illusion comes full circle in which is has become a self-referencial metaphor for consumption of the plebs. Scriptural money has not relation with the bills in everyone's pockets in terms of volume, value and speed. Money issued as debt is the highest form of totalitarian religion.
Brilliant observation Xeno, on the military industrial ponzi scheme. Once again, the government prospers doing what would be illegal for anyone else.
even playing the stock market just creates paper values which cannot be cashed in except by buying real goods.
Which is why the IRS bright boys who do audits always start with assumption of guilt. They don't look at what you made, but where you spend ALL that money, because it is the only true measure of "wealth"... what you wasted, er.. I mean used.
Producing mountains of stuff is what modern industry does magnificently. Once not long ago utopians foresaw people only working ten hours a week and enjoying themselves all the other hours. Or if they had 'enough' they need not work at all.
Yet despite huge overproduction of everything people have to work longer hours and have two earners in a family. The opposite of the utopians. Why?
Is it because so much production goes into armaments? I think Orwell had some such idea. Society can't work if everyone has so much stuff that they are effectively equal to the richest. Society needs differentials in wealth, and armaments solve that problem. By having industry churning out totally non-wealth producing guns, the goods are not there for the proles, who work but never gain any butter.
Guess that sounds okay, but it doesn't explain the need for capital to work its own weird alchemy in world affairs.
Usury is the masked bandit thief in the night. That's what they always told me anyways.
Changing the interest rates is how they lathe away true wealth no matter which way the log is spinning.
From the point of view of the industrialist, interest is exactly like rent. he passes it on in full to the end customer via the price of the product, and since (we may assume as a first approximation) all idnustrialists are paying interest at the same rate, it cancels out across the field of industrialists and leaves their competitive positions unaltered.
However, as a second approximation, we can say that the banker prints his credits and gives them to the arms manufacturer, rather than for instance to the manufacturer of childrens' toys, at a preferential rate. This is because endless wars:
(1) keep the poor in terror
(2) generate endless profits
(3) expand the geographical market.
However, I am inclining to the view that, since Israel, like all other western states, is ruled by a military oligarchy which beneath the bluster shows no more concern with the survival of israel's jews than with the survival of anyone else (iranians, arabs, muslims, americans, etc) we should revise our assessment.
Isn't the defining issue though jews in America and what they think and do rather than what is happening in Israel.
I don't really know for sure how true this is, but it made sense when I heard it, that the methodology of how they (the FED) actually puts the new money into circulation initially is in exchange for real value somewhere. Gold? Oil? Staten Island? The World Trade Center? So it really doesn't matter to them after it is in play.
We assume they "print" it and "loan/give" it to the Government at interest to spend, ie. hand over to Halliburton. But that's not even the worst of it.
Makes one wonder how many US military bases around the world are actually leased from a jewish banker. lol
or say...for a defensive missile site in Poland. Who collects the rent?
You can bet they would never actually make the title report public information.
“that physical production is needed to generate profit”. - Fractional banking makes profit for the Bankers. The reason military production is useful is that it requires the State to borrow; this was the genius of the Rothschilds. Because the State has the power to tax, the real money can be made. The US is still paying Civil War debt and England, Boer war debt. That's way we have the continuous state of war. I think.
Cal - there is no wrong in asking questions. Asking questions with the intent to learn from the answers is the path to learning.
I always keep in mind Socrates' point that one cannot learn until one knows that one knows nothing.
Asking the right questions is the start to learning the right answers.
righteo | 06.10.07 - 1:03 am | #
righteo, if you are referring to my recent post addressed to Juan, I agree with you.
For my part, I like to keep in mind birdman's point that "learnin' is churnin' ". (Actually the point is not his, it's someone else's, but I do not know that source). Another good precept is "the more I learn, the less I know".
Learning is not a passive exercise, in the sense of keeping all of one's body apertures open looking ga-ga, and letting stuff flow in. You have to work at it.
You have to think, you have to discriminate, you have to draw conclusions based on logic, and file them away in your mind as "lessons learned". Otherwise, there is no learning. This is obvious.
A person is handicapped if they are afraid to ask questions because they are afraid of appearing ignorant.
righteo | 06.10.07 - 1:03 am | #
There is no shame in appearing ignorant and asking questions. There is no single person alive that knows everything.
But to insist on maintaining one's state of ignorance in the face of an onslaught of new information: yes, I do think there is something wrong with that. There is even a term for it: "invincible ignorance".
One of the benefits of education is it gives one the right to be ignorant but wanting to know more.
righteo | 06.10.07 - 1:03 am | #
Well-said, and I agree. I am puzzled, though, why you were moved to address these comments to me. The points you make are self-evident (along the lines of "the sun rises in the east"). Sure the sun rises in the east. We have agreement, we have ignition, and we have take-off; so: what is gained by this?
Oh, I thought you were taking a bigger cudgel to Juan than he needs at this moment. He seems to be taking the Big-H education on board. It takes quite some time to un-brainwash oneself. Remember Zundel? He said it took him two years to accept the idea that the naughty germans hadn't bumped off millions of chosenites. Cult deprogramming might be a useful reference point.
OTH we shall see.
The holohoax debunking has to done again and again. It's never a waste of time.
No, fractional reserve banking as such does not make profit for the bankers. Fractional reserve banking allows them to extend credit to customers up to a total of, shall we say, ten times their immediate liquid assets. These loans are intended to allow the borrowers to engage in business and to make profit, out of which they will pay interest to the bankers.
Fractional-reserve banking is so last millenium. Now thanks to the derivative markets we have entirely-independent-of-reserve banking.
For Juan, and those interested in mastering cult psycho-dynamics in easy steps, here is a tip:
Mind Control Made Easy
http://video.google.com/videopla...594422405&
hl=en
The replacement of Christianity with worldly religious forms like the big H becomes evident once the mind-control bubble is burst.
I just loved the part in the video in which the various front groups present themselves with entirely bogus. Don't they just sound like DC think tanks like American Enterprise Institute, Project for a New American Century and etc?
Deprogram yourself, set up your own cult, but by all means turn off your TV set!
I meant "front groups present themselves with entirely bogus names".
Remember Zundel? He said it took him two years to accept the idea that the naughty germans hadn't bumped off millions of chosenites. Cult deprogramming might be a useful reference point.
righteo | 06.10.07 - 8:33 am | #
OK, you have a point here. It took Zundel only 2 years? For me, it was more like 10 - not through refusing to deprogram myself but through not paying attention. No focus, no interest. It took me ages to see the link between the big-H and everything else.
The holohoax debunking has to done again and again. It's never a waste of time.
righteo | 06.10.07 - 8:33 am | #
Well, hardly ever.
I still ruefully recall, how I once gave a stern lecture to a classmate of mine, about how nasty the Germans had been to the jews in WW2. He gave me a hesitant dissenting response; and it was actually *that*, a kind of trigger, that set me to thinking and to reading. Square 1 for me was Butz's book, and from that point on, there was no going back. Learnin' and churnin' .
smekhovo | 06.10.07 - 8:54 am - even though you can use derivates to spread risk, which is one of the purposes of the factional reverve banking system, the deriviates market isn't an acceptable complete sustitute for the FRS. Derivative can stablize markets but they can also be really abused.
I don't share the utopian-apocalyptic idea that a world without 'usury' is either possible or desirable. It seems to me that the existence of the moneylender is like the existence of the gambler - it cannot be legislated away.
Fine, but usury by definition is excessive interest. Key word, excessive, so interest should be regulated by the State. The more the risk, the higher the interest. Banking should only be a private enterprise if there is true competition.
That seems to me to be a very weak definition. 'excessive' relative to what norm?
Recall "A Hitch-hiker's Guide To The Galaxy" in which practicaly every life action was treated as a form of gambling.
I suppose you could say that judeo-protestant society is based on a sort of institutionalised gambling.
Protestants don't gamble and we love the drink but hate the drunkard.
yes, but calvinism's adoption of the jewish idea that organised finance could manifest the will of god, ya know
I suppose you could say life is a gamble but that sounds so 70'ish, touchy, feely
I suppose that sounds a bit outré, but it's true of many professions that their practitioners think of their work as manifesting the will of god, starting with the cathedral builders.
I don't find it at all difficult to imagine a jewish financier, from any period of history, confiding to his friends that he felt that his success or failure in the world of finance was a manifestation of the will of god. It's alarming that people so manipulative should have such complacent ideas of themselves, but there it is.
You can't possibly condemn the cathedral builders. Those buildings are works of true art and therefore inspired. Call the inspiration what you will but for lack of a better name, god.
Not to defend the Jew too much, but we all justify our actions in one way or another and god is as good excuse as any.
OK, but I was simply trying to put the idea of profession-as-will-of-god into a more obvious context than finance.
I don't think these Lev Leviev types are the worst of it - it's the non-jewish imperial rulers of this world who are seduced into playing the role of god of history and providence for the jews who do the damage - starting with Cyrus!
"In 1989", recalls Leviev, "my business wasn't going as well as I could have hoped for... I must say that at that time was considering starting up business in the USSR, though I understood just how risky that could be. As I always did in such situations, I went to the Rebbe to ask his advice. ...From him I heard the following: "Don't forget your family traditions; don't forget who your grandfather was; remember the Torah, which teaches us to concern ourselves with others. You must help other Jews living in the Soviet Union" And he," continues Leviev, "named all 15 republics, adding: "God willing, you'll have a business, too." Armed with this advice from the Teacher I arrived in Moscow 11 years ago and opened up two programs, one related to business and the other to helping the [Jewish] community. Today there are already 345 such organizations in the CIS, with synagogues, institutes of learning, cafeterias, libraries, and large centers... One of the most active is "Chabad Shomrei Shabos", which is run by my friend, the Head Rabbi of Odessa and the Southern Ukraine Avroom Wolf. I consider him the most successful and reliable businessman..."
No argument from me there. I never had a problem with hanging traitors
Rowan - the moneylender serves a useful purpose if the loan is used for acquiring assets and not for mere consumption.
Interest is also necessary, IMO. It covers risks to the lender, e.g. possible default & inflation; cost of administration; and reward or profit. Otherwise why lend?
The question is when does interest cross the threshhold into usury? Germar Rudolf wrote an interesting article arguing that compound interest is usurious, simple interest is not.
---
I've always been impressed by bookmakers. They pander to a human weakness, the thrill of gambling. Bookies who last in the business operate on tiny margins, about 1%, and have an uncanny ability to calculate the odds. Yet bookies drive Mercedes, and punters drive Minis.
---
By the way, I read where the best performing superannuation fund in our neck of the woods is run by the bookmakers' for their retirement. Their investment strategy was very interesting, and it was no gamble.
Here we need to pay attention to two things. Firstly, who in the conditions of the still-communist USSR would think of opening up a private diamond business? And it's just this sort of "business-related program" which we're talking about here, because by that time Lev Leviev had already established himself in diamonds in South Africa, Angola and India... Though after reading the above article one might get the impression that "Diamond Lev", in seeking the Rebbe's advice before expanding into "Soviet" territory, was thinking about opening an atelier for the sewing of women's blouses or a small factory for the production of jar lids.
We can only draw one conclusion from the fact that Leviev received his Teacher's blessing and decided to "take the risk" after all: that by 1989 no risk existed for Chabad "businessmen" in the Soviet Union. Though within the USSR itself there were probably very few who could have guessed that... By the way, the main characteristic of Jewish national "risk" consists of just that -- of "coming out" only at such time and in such place where no one and nothing can possibly threaten the "chosen ones'" business.
And the second point. We've seen once again from this article that Chabad rabbis are able to combine, "with no qualms", active religious activity with the conduct of "successful and reliable business projects". I wonder how relations have developed between these rabbi-businessmen and local fiscal organs? Maybe a special paragraph has been introduced into the Tax Code entitled "Rabbinical business"? Or maybe the business deals of the Chabad rabbinate are handled by the Committee for Religious Matters?
I remember reading this which is why I was going to say that protestants skew the field in thier favor, but then thing back, my dad didn't do that, so I think this is one thing that the everday garden variety protestant didn't pick up from the Jew.
Lev Leviev richest man in Israel, fortune of over $6 billion
Shlomi Sheffer and Mike Dagan, Haaretz, 06/06/2007
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spa...ges/
867699.html
The wealth of Israel's 500 richest individuals increased by approximately 25 percent last year, from $65 billion to over $81 billion in contrast to the 2007 state budget of $70 billion. According to TheMarker Magazine's list of the 500 richest Israelis, in its fifth year of publication, Israel's wealthiest individual is Lev Leviev. Leviev took the title from the Wertheimer family, owners of the Iscar company bought by Warren Buffett who until that point had bought solely American companies. Leviev is the controlling shareholder of Africa Israel, which has shown impressive growth achieved by making significant investments overseas. Leviev's net worth is now valued at over $6 billion. The Wertheimer fortune stands at around $5.5-6 billion, however it has not seen any significant growth. Eli Reifman of Emblaze placed at the bottom of the list, after another year of losses and management changes. He lost his position among Israel's the top 500 companies.
I have put a slightly edited version of the wonderful Eduard Hodos polemic from which I quote above, on my blog, for ease of reference. I shall put the item about Leviev being the richest man in israel on there too.
Maybe it's just Jewish nepotism. They can rely on overseas Jews for finance.
But I am very excited by the idea that israel could move into the Russian orbit or sphere of influence, or into alliance with Russia, at a time of its own chooosing - one maximally inconvenient for the USA.
remember what they did to Britain. And Germany.
Wait a minute. Which do you like less, the US or Russia? I don't think the Russians will fall for them so easily the second time. They haven't fogotten 1917. That's why they have the no dual citizenship law.
And Mr. Berkeley I'm not going to let you bait me into a fight I can't win.
There is this peculiar relationship between the Lubavitchers and Tzarism. Basically, the first Lubavitcher Rebbe held that the Jews were better of under Tzarism than under any sort of Western European liberal system. He felt that Tzarism would keep the Jews Jewish. I don't think the question of what it would do to the Russians really arose in his mind. But his hasids acted as a fifth column behind the advancing lines of the Napoleonic Army, thus helping to ensure its defeat. This conditioned their entire sense of historical mission, it remains the paradigm to this day I believe. So you can speculate on how Putin would react to this.
But I thought the question of who's side Putin is really on hasn't been answered. I would like to think he'd crush them or at least send them all packing to Israel. Also I take it you don't think the international bankers are as powerful as I do.
The jewish fantasy machine fed the rulers of the USA with the fantasies it knew they wanted to have, and it is quite capable of feeding he rulers of Russia similarly - it knows Russia very well indeed, historically.
That is why I went so far into the Alexander Dugin material - even if you merely regard Dugin as a court jester, it says something about the court ...
thank you, this is again a chance to think about this theme, myself get into this conflict often. The biggest demonstration of mass- deception was 911 of course, a shocked patriotism turned against Afghanistan and even Saddam.
But from another view it would not be wrong to have some respect for your country and the people who worked and have even fought for it in wars. If they were at times misled, one would have the more the duty to find out and let this not be repeated. Because the soldiers were acting in good belief. In Germany the MSM propaganda is aimed, to look at them of the past war, as criminals, to make todays people despise their country and be pushed into egoism, entertainment and looking for profit making as new values, definitly not very promising.
It´s probably the best idea to get outside the masses, especially if they´re so stupid as today, but the common opinion has a magnetic attraction.
True.
gotta go, bye
Quite so Fritz : I am applying the same argument to the Israelis themselves.
My last comment was connected to far above, sorry.
At the moment Russia seems not to reach outside its country much, as Helmut Schmidt said, former chancellor. Maybe, if isolated, Israel will be neglectable also its possibilities to do evil. See how they bluff.
On the one hand, as I keep saying, the majority of jewish israelis are secular liberals in the european mould and do not want to live under a lubavitcher theocracy.
On the other hand, you have all these jewish media moguls creating 'snow jobs' which completely obscure reality, and the people who gets snowed upon most heavily in this blizzard of decontextualised images are the jewish israelis, who consequently are almost completely hallucinated at all times.
Rowan - you didn't like the comment I put on your Hodos blog item?
comment? no idea
just to explain what i mean by their being "hallucinated" : this is shorthand for saying that like most stressed out tv watchers they suffer continuous involuntary flashbacks of images from the tv.
it vanished into cyberspace then.
I don't think that's an accurate interpretation of the hasids' behaviour in 1812 - it seemed to the French that they simply acted like jackals, fawning on the invaders and then turning on them in their misfortune. Of course afterwards they claimed to be have been deeply loyal to their sovereign, as they always do.
I think I got the impression of them that I have from reading a marxist historian, who would obviously have a particular dislike for the Lubavitchers.
I really try to stay excatly on the left/right axis, so for me to acquire an idea from a marxist texts is no more scandalous than to acquire one from a fascist one.
This remark by Daniel Guerin (marxist) for instance, I can agree with :
The anti-capitalism of the middle classes has as its chief target the organization of credit. Throughout the nineteenth century, the petty-bourgeois theoreticians attacked not producing capitalism but idle capitalism—the lender, the banker.…
a good description, Rowan, of the media fog specially in the jewish hollucinated entity. So a procondition to even think about the situation, would be to see it.
As in the West, the media moguls and their employees are like the rulers or have their instructions from them - or this business is running by itself.
The good thing about it is, it´s very weak, if people just switch the propaganda off.
If you can find it, read the pamphlet
on The Guernsey Experiment.
I haven't seen it online but I found this:
http://www.prolognet.qc.ca/clyde...e/
Guernsey.html
the mere fact of the son of one of his ex-wives going on a CDN march threatened his security clearance.
Even weirder ... presumably, those labouring in the security field do so in order to secure peace, no?
Yet, it seems their very survival is threatened by those publicly promoting the idea of peace.
Therefore, the presumption of securing peace being their objective is utterly wrong.
Christ, even UNESCO is just a cog in the military machine.
Furthermore, it strikes me that drawing distinction between the bankers and militarists is wrong, since neither can flourish without the other.
Wars need money and money needs wars.
Imo, Israel represents the perfect fusion of the two, which I suspect is why the call it explicitly a "Jewish State".
And that is also why the whole notion that capitalism ensures healthy economy is also utterly wrong.
Its aim is the precise opposite; destruction and ever increasing degree of enslavement and inequality.
Thus Creative Destruction, one of the few great truths ever spoken by a Jew, i.e., My prosperity through your destruction.
The code of hyena.
I have to wonder whether he was really working for UNESCO or whether that was just his ... um ... 'legend'.
Furthermore, it strikes me that drawing distinction between the bankers and militarists is wrong, since neither can flourish without the other.
Wars need money and money needs wars.
It is the bankers who need the wars, not the money.
I said before that Government Coverup is pleonastic as Military Intelligence is an oxymoron. The irony is that they can now be used interchangeably and reduced to a three letter acronym. CIA, MI6, IDF ... JEW.
CIA, MI6, IDF ... JEW
-- evidence, Juan, old boy, not medieval fantasy, please
Schumpeter wasn't a jew. In fact, he detested them and blamed them for the war.
well, ok. It's only theory. Add it to the Moon and 9/11.
If I could prove it, would I still be alive?
"Christ, even UNESCO is just a cog in the military machine." - Lobro
This reminds me of a funny story that happened in the ILO (International Labour Organization. Robert Cox, an american marxist international relations scholar, once wrote a paper called 'Labour and Hegemony' in which he argued that multilateralism was a cover for American hegemony, and illustrated his case with the pernicious manipulations made by the American delegation to the ILO. At the time the paper was published, he worked as a senior research staffer at the ILO. The American delegation vehemently denounced his thesis and, as if to prove him right, managed to get him immediately fired from the ILO.
My father's first wife worked for the ILO. By the time of his retirement he was supposedly working for CERN, and his third wife ... oh, never mind.
Your father has got lots of Geneva mileage, RB.
Have you seen Godard's "Le Petit Soldat"?
If it's pre 'Tout Va Bien' then I should have hoped I would have seen it. Maybe you can point me at some catalogue raisonée of his work which will tell me all about it.
Here's a little summary of the movie.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0054177/
summary + shots
http://www.cineclubdecaen.com/
re...petitsoldat.htm
The film may be contemporary to your father's sojourn in Geneva. I thought the Geneva scenery might evoke some dear memories to you; it certainly does to me.
I am not being ironic here, I am truly speaking of lake Léman and the mountains, not the movie's intrigue and torture.
as if to prove him right, managed to get him immediately fired from the ILO
A famous case in point was Marlon Brando, who merely stated the obvious fact that Jews run Hollywood.
Instantly, he was blackballed and out of work until he crawled back with a whimpering retraction: Jews do not control Hollywood. Jews do not control Hollywood. Can I get some work please?
If there is anything worse than an antisemite, it is a semite.
I'd give anything to have been there ...
Pakistani parliament probes premier's alleged flirting with Rice
"Moreover, Aziz is said to have bragged to Western diplomats that he could "conquer any woman in two minutes,""
"There was this test of wills where he was trying to use all his charm on her as a woman and she just basically stared him down. By the end of the meeting, he was babbling,"
... them Pakis ...
lolol...Pakis have a lot to learn when it comes to picking up women...they gotta work on their game.
Condi would look good in a burqa, dontcha think? Women shouldn't always be so damn unattainable and always assume the worst.
Pakis have a lot to learn
That's an understatement if it takes a moosehead like Peter McKay to show them the ropes.
Concerning the topics of money and economics the two following sites are positions I found helpfull in understanding the problems with both issues.
On money:
http://www.tvnewslies.org/html/
m...ld_of_lies.html
On economics:
http://www.acton.org/publicat/oc.../
ratzinger.html
MOOsehead McKay was babbling too at the end of his joint conference with Condi, in case you forget, lobro.
I don't think his capabilities extend much beyond babbling, so it may be said that he was doing his best.
Le genou de Claire is my favourite lake film.
Trying to take an interest in Condomlicka's charms would fit anyone for a padded cell.
Rowan,
"By the way, I have just started on Thomas Thompson's latest book, "The Messiah Myth", in which he seeks to show that Jesus, like Moses, IS A MERE LITERARY STOCK FIGURE, NOT A HISTORYICAL REALITY AT ALL."
Where's your creativity? Are you Jewish?
Many threads back, that is many months ago, I stated that Christianity is also a "Mythos".
That's why it's so difficult to speak to literalist. They don't understand the psycological/metaphore behind the construct of "the word was made flesh" because its mystery participates not outside our experience of being but is housed in our collective psyche. Ancient native peoples around the globe have projected similar common symbols in many mediums the images they hope will give birth to the reason why they exist.
I don't know if Becket was aware of this or not in his "Waiting For Godot" the characters refer to "Him" as outside their experience something external. He never arrives. This is why nothings happens because they don't realize that Godot is within. No creative inner dialog just monotonous
talk of where he could be.
The Talmud is psychologically at odds with man's desire to seek a common cosmology in the face of contingency. Man's history is the desire for order and familiarity to counter his fear of uncertainty and annihilation. The "Christ", "Messiah" or "Savior" had to be recognizable in human form because the psyche gave birth to him. As a species is this not understandable? Does it also represent an evolutionary revelation of necessity to explain the mystery of life?
Having said this, the phenomena is universal except for those who isolate themselves in front of a computer pounding symbols on a screen waiting unconsciously for some kind of response, answer or insight to be reveled in their search for a truth out there in cyber space that might give one a reason to be. You are not loved if you do not love. Even quantum physicist know that when you look at a solid object close enough it physically vanishes.
Where's your creativity? Are you Jewish?
-- if the supposed 'intellectuals' on this list are going to imitate salman's racism, then there isn't much point in my being here, is there?
Rowan,
Yes. But as what or at who's expense?
Rowan Berkeley | Homepage | 06.11.07 - 4:59 am |
Impossible! You can't be a Jewish. Your name does not end with AIN, according to Sal.
Even quantum physicist know that when you look at a solid object close enough it physically vanishes.
As someone who has done some work in mathematical physics, I can affirm that in no way does it discourage metaphysical ruminations (for a good example, check Roger Penrose's "Emperor's New Clothes").
lobro,
I agree. It participates in "it".
http://preteristcosmos.com/
Yeah Rowan but North is still reeling from his Y2k Elmer Gantrying.
Course he's preferable to any dispensationalist but check out his offering here.
Ken Hoop | 06.08.07 - 3:26 pm | #
Good one, Ken!
If the question you are asking, Tigs, is "why is rowan here, and at whose expense?" then I can only suggest you tell us.
I suppose to be fair to Tigs I have to admit that the ontology he is trying to foist on us isn't really racial, so much as religious.
Either way, however, I don't share it. An ontology is a theory of things that are in being, and whether for racial or religious reasons a lot of people insist that there are two types of things, or two types of being, christian and jewish. This I regard as crap.
The racism card. How about "spiritual" ideology that reeks havoc on all positive human qualities?
The racism card being played again? How about Judaism having at its core an antithetical ideological construct against the "other"? The Torah, Talmud and Zionist "christians" should be outlawed as "racist" and injurious to all other "goy" belief systems. Its effects are obviated in the material essential needs of human beings around the globe.
Its antisocial mythos is in its very fundamental teachings. Us against them.
As far as Salman, I can take him or leave him. His anger may be real or he may be a spook. Me thinks you protest too much.
Rowan,
You have a tendency to split things into simple dichotomies. A good atheist might also agree with some of my opinions and might have legitimate objections about religion from their experiences. Yet many of them don't believe that one should throw the baby out with the bath water.
Off to work!
Tigs, you are an intelligent man, do you really think that the abstractions of philsophical judaism have the slightest significance as such to ordinary israelis? if you do, you simply show your complete disinterest in the sociology of jewish israelis.
Tigs,
I have nothing against spirituality, even if I don't have a good definition available.
Just a quick and preliminary suggestion (it may be wrong but it's worth considering):
the difference between spirituality and occultism is that the former, being filtered through ethics, has some (perhaps even solid) connection with logic, whereas the latter, without the said filter, quickly deteriorates into nasty mumbo-jumbo.
The difference between golems and angels, if you will, although both may well be just the product of human fantasy, the effects are very real.
Of course, it is worth remembering that in the cosmic view of things, we are probably just a bunch of cockroaches disputing stale breadcrumbs.
Rowan, part of what causes these occasional sparks to fly is that you seem to perceive a real difference in the national character of Israelis and diaspora Jews.
Furthermore, whereas your focus is the modern Israeli mind and sociology, the rest of us toil in the muck of Talmud, not so much because of some voyeuristic impulse as because of sense of dread, since not only has it wreaked untold damage on the present state of affairs but it may yet surpass all of that in near future.
Are you saying that the two are unrelated or just weakly so?
It would be welcome news.
However, the fact is indisputable that without Talmud, there would have been no Holocaust, real or imagined, and without Holocaust (real or imagined), there would have been no Israel. They are fully cognizant of it and play it to the hilt in all their correspondence with the rest of the world.
The first thing to grasp is that, in lieu of a territorially based state system, jewry developed a form of social organisation which is neither territorially-based nor geared to the operation of any sort of state.
The simplest description would be that the ruling stratum of jewish society was formed out of a constantly self-renovating and competitive series of coalitions between the richest jews and the most prestigious ones (these latter being rabbis, who considered their responsibility to include everything from education to the regulation of marriages).
This is a pretty oppressive type of rule, and one of the less widely acknowledged purposes of zionism was to escape it, in favour of something more like a western european liberal state with a correspondingly liberal and pluralistic society. All this, of course, without allowing the laxity to go so far as to dissolve jewish society as such altogether.
However, the state which was intended to achieve this is now reverting to something that looks more and more like orthodoxy and ghetto thinking, because they world-wide alliances between rabbinical leaders and rich jews have by no means given up - they are taking over the zionist state - via the USA which they already control - observe that control of the USA is child's play compared to gaining total control of israel!
here is an extraordinary document apparently written by an ex israeli solder, determined to blacken the colonial enterprise by fair means or foul.
As jewish dissident texts often seem to do, it uses a lot of obscenity, along the lines of "we shot some arab kids, then we watched some porn, then we all had a wank":
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
d...nt_syndrome.pdf
By the sound of it, it was a typical man-of-war naval type organization, except that the rebellious crew intentionally ran the man-of-war aground, with the absurd result that they are still trapped inside it.
It would be funny, except that the whole contraption is radioactive and poisoning everything around it.
If it is true that Zionism arose out of wish to confront and escape the clutches of Talmud, then it lost the fight since they are becoming more merged and indistinguishable every day (sort of like this http://thumbsnap.com/v/0zfQcCBy.jpg except that protagonists are still very much alive).
I think that the day approaches when our respective foci will likewise merge into a common front.
Certainly, the difference is quite academic to Palestinians and what are we if not Palestinians-in-waiting?
The time to get ready for intifada is now.
what a strange photo
a book about: Physics and Transcendence, ed. by Axel Dürr, with articles by the great physicists (quantenphysics). Beginning with Max Planck around 1900, who already said, that physics and religion are not antagonistic but complementary methods. Physics is viewing the world of objects from outside as spectator and religion from inside, subjectivly. Physics can recognize God in the simplicity of the mathematical laws and in religion God is recognized immediatly and language is a parable for the objectivly not seizable, transcental.
Later quantumphysics developed so that the difference of object and the spectator disappeared, who does influence the particles by watching them and pairs of particles have a telepathic connection.
Anyway this is much theoretical, so that I appreciate Tiger Eyes insight: the Irish monks ventured beginning with St.Patric in the 5.century to the Germans and had it not been our celtic brothers and sisters: we would never have become oriental Christians. Don´t believe a talmudic rabby would have had any success.
The Pharisees teach the materialistic ghetto with no escape (Matthew 23.,13) and hate Jesus who showed a way out. This is also later Talmud. As is to see the great Physicians have been concerned with this question. Also in the common unconscious these myths or realities play a role: the present entertainment and political propaganda are based upon them too, no?
And only a part of this world can be seized rationally.
Outside of christian polemic the distinctions you are making have no meaning, Fritz.
Returning to my discussion with lobro, I want to add that the significant term is "wanting to be a nation like all the others."
Obviously the bible is full of curses on any jews who want this.
what a strange photo
Indeed, and the full story here
sorry, made some little faults above, in the construction of sentences.
now this funny too: a theory that their rulers of Khazaric origin give a damn about the fate of Jews in Israel or elsewhere.
Fritz, if I remove the red herring 'of khazaric origin', I find that your statement begs the question, by assuming we know who 'rules' them - if we knew this we would already have solved the actual political problem we are discussing, namely, the appropriate way to address the jewish israeli masses.
the significant term is "wanting to be a nation like all the others."
Obviously the bible is full of curses on any jews who want this.
Is that so? My knowledge of bible is pretty scant and second hand.
Are you saying that the Jewish bible (torah?) exhorts them to remain pariahs or that the Christian powers force them outside the pale?
As for being like all the others, why then are israelis so closely and enthusiastically involved in every criminal racket that harms and exploits goys, from illegal organ transplants to prostitution, South American drug trade, arms smuggling, blood diamonds, pornography, to name just a few?
Like Jeffrey Dahmer or Wayne Gacy wanting to be "just like others" ... if only they could kick the habit of kidnapping, raping, and eating the corpses of murdered boys (don't replace "b" by "g" or it is blood libel), they'd be like anyone else.
Blame those racist antisemites ...
the appropriate way to address the jewish israeli masses.
Is as lobro pointed out above, an expose of the Talmud. Even holocaust debunking won't get the job done.
Same goes for Sharia law. And in fairness we would have to add Christian militancy.
All of them based in imposing THEIR "unjust" legal system on everyone else.
Rowan Berkeley | Homepage | 06.11.07 - 1:32 pm | # Outside of christian polemic the distinctions you are making have no meaning, Fritz.
It is astounding that the findings of the quantum physics have not made their way in wider social circles.
Quantum mechanics is not a get-out-of-jail-free card for whatever tickles your fancy!
i dunno, theres these Quantum Gods apparently.
could be a rock group. something like hawkwind.
Izzy is just a furnished apartment where the feuj slum it on their way to the land of the phree.
In quantum physics is not a question of God but about a theory of cognition: how solid are the objects of this world. Is the spectator outside? As Tiger Eye mentioned above.
Quantum mechanics is not a get-out-of-jail-free card for whatever tickles your fancy!
Quite so; the most egregious example being people who hold it up as an example of "non-linear thinking".
It is in fact the only theory in all of physics that is perfectly linear, i.e., the underlying mathematics is that of linear functionals on Hilbert spaces.
That damn Hilbert again, trying to steal his Jewish student's (i.e., Einstein's) credit.
Rowan, btw, that checkpoint shlomo-cum-jewish dissident story doesn't pass the nose test, it in fact sounds very much like classical mossadist disinfo.
Maybe they want to trap outraged idiots and clearly debunk it afterwards to everyone's embarrassment and their righteous triumph (we just clearly exposed few more antisemites, heheh, now please pay the fine)?
How credible is it that some guy would sadistically mistreat Palestinian (Arabs), humiliate, beat, maim and kill them, rape their women, steal their stuff on everyday basis, interspersed with trademark Jewish porn (... and then I cornholed my girlfriend Dana and she loved it ...) and after everything is said and done peddle his gory tale to some naive, freckle-faced Christian goys?
When Faust (Marlowe or Goethe, take your pick) realizes the depth of his depravity and dreads the underworld coming to claim their end of the bargain, what does he do, spank his monkey?
In quantum physics is not a question of God but about a theory of cognition: how solid are the objects of this world. Is the spectator outside? As Tiger Eye mentioned above.
It actually goes beyond that, Fritz.
The entire materialistic notion of solid "being", i.e., something "tangible" that lays claim on a chunk of space over a period of time is challenged.
One may argue quite forcefully, following the theory, that existence is nothing but a form of vacuum, nothingness, thereby giving a big boost to ancient Hindu precepts of world as illusion spun out of nothing at all.
But that doesn't get us out of our present discussion folks.
Whose nothing is it?
Is my nothing stronger than yours?
It's like the ol' Texan caught up in the middle of a range war, "All I want is what is mine... and whatever joins it."
A page out of Israel's playbook.
Rowan my friend,
" Tigs, you are an intelligent man, do you really think that the abstractions of philsophical Judaism have the slightest significance as such to ordinary Israelis?"
It's that abstraction of philosophical Judaism that is kicking everyone in the ass.
I have been around Jews all my life. They are far more predictable than not. I'm amazed how many times while having conversations about WW II without mentioning Jews, the token Jew at the party has often interrupted the conversation by hysterically saying something like this: "Of course we had to enter the war they were killing the Jews!". Their nuts! Articulate but sick!
While dating a Jewish women, who was very sweet and kind (and not practicing the "religion"), I went to pick her up and while there mentioned I just got ripped off for $8,000 dollars. Her very first question was, was he a Jew!? And he was!
I've been told by a Public School Jewish guidance counselor who stated "We get all you Catholic school trash", another Jewish teacher who live in our apartment house would go to her window in the morning as my sister and I passed her basement window with she would yell, HONEST!, "You fucking Nazi's" because we were in Catholic school uniforms when we were only 12 or 13 years old. These are just some experiences. We never ever made any derogatory replies.
That's the American experience. It may have been different in Britain. I can only imagine how Palestinians must be treated.
The job was rained out today.
if not for the "nazi" catholics far more than the 250,000 jews would have died ww2.
brainwashing to hate and more hate. judaism, a gutter religion and jews, a gutter people.
this their thinking has made them.
"A page out of Israel's playbook."
what is mine is mine. what i stole is mine. what is yours that i did not steal is mine.
actually, lobro, myself knows just a bit about quantum physics, I only wanted to point to the fact, that those great rational physicists also thought about religious myths and transcendence.. and how the world appears depends on how the perception of the obsever is conditioned (will think about it further).
Rowan: ...the significant term is "wanting to be a nation like all the others." Obviously the bible is full of curses on any jews who want this.
Rowan, you think about the ´socialist` Kibutzim of the 1960s. But as a nation the Jews did´nt respect the Palestinians, Lebanon, others.., international laws, were not independent..
Perhaps you believe in the sentence, that the french revolutionaries wrote on the walls of desecrated churches: Temple de la raison. A purely rational society, without regarding history as well as religion or old philosophies has then as well as in Bolshewism failed terribly.
But do they have a rational order in Israel? the first comment on this thread shows the outmost digusting attitude of the famous Jew:
“The situation between us,” Dayan creepily informed the Palestinian poet Fadwa Tuqan, “is like the complex relationship between a Bedouin man and the young girl he has taken against her wishes.
lobro,
"Just a quick and preliminary suggestion (it may be wrong but it's worth considering):the difference between spirituality and occultism is that the former, being filtered through ethics, has some (perhaps even solid) connection with logic, whereas the latter, without the said filter, quickly deteriorates into nasty mumbo-jumbo."
The spirituality mythos I'm talking about is tied to the soil, the community. Cults, for the most part, are intellectual exercises in ego centric withdrawal. This is why they seldom last as a community. Contrary to what non-Catholic think and don't understand is that Dogma and morality is not faith, it's something more fundamental that is the really religious. That being celebrating life, beauty, wonder and universal truths. No one has a monopoly on suffering. To be alive is to suffer. To realize this one can have compassion for others, that is, to suffer with your friends, families and especially the wee ones When they need you. They need it the most. I sense that it is a quiet realization of the profound mystery of life that then begins an inner and outer dialog where all things are possible and reconciled when objective reality becomes sacred. That's all. Even Jewish people have it but have shut it down tight because they are waiting for their liberator, an external event, rather then it coming somewhere in the area of the heart. Our accepting even death in life (small deaths and death itself) as sacred and eminent is one of its gifts.
Even the great St. Thomas Aquinas, before he died said that his great tome The Summa Theologica, which he never finished, was nothing more than "straw".
Hope I was helpful in some way, lobro?
lobro,
Have you read any Teilhard de Chardin?
Try this as an intro:
http://www.bizcharts.com/stoa_de...m/
plenum_2.html
Fritz,
Your a wonderful man.
Sorry to disagree with your statement, lobro: "the difference between spirituality and occultism is that the former, being filtered through ethics, has some (perhaps even solid) connection with logic, whereas the latter, without the said filter, quickly deteriorates into nasty mumbo-jumbo".
First, i suggest that spirituality and occultism are governed by the same laws, especially "you reap what you sow", cause and effect. There also is a code of ethics in both fields which some follow, some do not.
Then when you talk about magick, in what way is it different than miracles? Isn't that what the Talmudists say about Jesus, that he practiced magic?
I think the Divine Essence is manifested both through the manifest external and the hidden internal, which some call occultism. I think spirituality and occultism are one, btw.
Fritz, I second the above sentiment. You are a wonderful man, not because I agree with you, but I think you understand that True Science and Spirituality are One.
Let no one think that I either divorce science and metaphysical reality or place the former above the latter.
In fact, my background is not so much physics as mathematics, i.e., a pure game, not unlike chess, making no claims to parallels with "reality".
So, in no way am I qualified to make sweeping pronouncements regarding matters of psyche. Moreover, I find that works of CG Jung resonate with my temperament.
However, at some point I admit to fatigue when confronted with innumerable competing and clamorous claims by a bunch of occultists, all claiming the throne of unique insight and wisdom and precious little weight given to matters of justice, compassion and selfless humantiranism.
Such attitudes invariably regress to crude materialism, which is precisely the historic downfall of Talmud, although they are not alone there, many fat, venal practitioners of other religions fell through the same trapdoor, Catholic, Hindu and others.
But Talmud as a wholly perverted system of thought is entirely unique in scope and magnitude of corruption, it glorifies and wallows in it in Darth Vaderesque fashion.
Accuse Jesus of magics all you want, but he made eminent moral sense, and that is why he carries the day as far as I am concerned, all his "miracles" are neither here nor there in terms of persuasive force.
Had it been only the miracles, his fame would have lasted as long as Michael Jordan's.
Tiger Eye your magnanimous. That´s what you mean with "creative". Even if it was only words for now.. this is really great:
......quote........
Teilhard believes that there is an enfolded creative Intelligence within the depths of the cosmos...and that every aspect of human experience can be affected by this creative Intelligence, mainly via a "breakthrough" experience.
For Teilhard this special *breakthrough* creativity is an "act co-extensive with the whole duration of the universe." This creativity takes the form of a transformation. Teilhard calls it a "creative transformation" that brings real emancipation. "It puts an end to the paradox and the stumbling-block of matter." For Teilhard this transformation, this "growth of powers of *foresight* and *invention,*" can prompt and guide the evolutionary process. .........end of quote........
Rowan Berkeley | Homepage | 06.11.07 - 12:50 pm | #
However, the state which was intended to achieve this is now reverting to something that looks more and more like orthodoxy and ghetto thinking,...
Rowan, you give us very valuable observations of Jewish society, but please dont get the idea to ride on a donkey into Jerusalem. It´s another time now.
MFA, it may be only a matter of definition, but in my book, the occult is not the same as spiritual.
Occultists, unlike spiritual people, have no sense of personal responsibilty, they want something for nothing, like hey, I discovered this neat trick, I don't know how it works, but it does and it is good enough for me.
An occultist looks no further than an inside track to a winning lottery combination or some kind of trifecta.
Again, if your definition differs, my bad but that is how things stand in my little shop of notions.
Tigs, I will look at de Chardin as soon as an opportunity presents itself.
I've heard of him before but I am a slow reader and need time to catch up.
Thanks for the link.
Yes, lobro. one of the last poets today Hans Magnus Enzensberger wrote about science and it kolossal machines, like CERN, that these were the poetry of our time. na ja, but for me, you´ve pointed to the problem, only concerning my own experience that this is a selfapplauding machine, the: I, I, and this to recognize is a bit embarassing sometimes. And the same for some of those leaders who have only big words.
But with magic, if talmudists want to say it´s only a trick, so be it, it´s a trick of awareness then and that´s all there is.
lobro,
I hope it's what you were thinking of or looking for.
Man,
If I may, and please don't misunderstand me when I say that there is some confusion about cults/occult. Correct me please if I'm wrong, but is it correct to say that in a Hindu environment, that the word "Cult" has a somewhat different cultural meaning in the East then it does in the West?
Most cults in India are based on variations of occult diaplines/deciples of one or many of the Hindu Gods or Goddesses.
Where in the West, for a large part, the word denotes a negative practice or superstitious belief system of an elite secretive membership as occult. Here, we have to a much lesser degree, a fewer number of off shoots of genuine ancient practices/displines of real Eastern occult groups. For example, Theosophy or Spiritual Alchemy?
Can this be the problem? Or am I the problem?
I do have to admit that some of these people, as some acquaintances of mine, do exhibit an esoteric superiority of this knowledge that borders on egotism.
Wow lobro! your insight amazes me sometimes.
Magic doesn't make a believer. In fact it's just the opposite. Believers make the miracles.
In fact proof before belief is condemnation more often than not.
Magick in Crowley's sense (I continue to use the crowleyan spelling, which encourages people to read him) is about self mastery and psychological warfare, really. I say this because the question of whether all the supposed discarnate entities involved 'really exist or not' is treated as naive realism and ignored. Thus, as in psychological warfare, all that is available to structure the situation is beliefs about beliefs, which one then has to try to manipulate in a way that is psychologically and spiritually productive for oneself, if necessary dismissing any attempted interference by others, or by one's own old conditioning.
As Herodotus says, everyone knows the same about the gods.
I don't see much value in the idea that judaism or jewish civlisation generally are 'more materialistic' than christianity and christendom, because the term 'materialist' assumes there is an ontological dualism already ('spirit' versus 'matter') and this assumption defeats any possible usefulness for the discussion, reducing it to polemic inside of christian categories.
However, I would certainly agree that rabbinical judaism (which I consider to have been invented more or less in its entirety AFTER the time of Cyrus) works not by seeking the gods but by pre-emptively defining a god who will be useful.
As Max Weber argues, Calvinist teleology implies worldly asceticism, a transmuted form of jewish talmudic materialism.
I wouldn't dismiss too quickly the profound relationship between jewish belief in 'progress', their worldly messianic redemption and Western materialism, be it Calvinist, or Marxist.
There is an obvious relationship between historicist religion in general and materialism, but if you want to talk about materialism as a philosophy you need to stop thinking about theologians like Calvin, because in no formal philosophical sense was he a materialist, at all.
Not materialism strictu sensu; rather materialism as pragma.
I think what you are talking about ultimately is the idea that the world can be genuinely and cumulatively improved, versus the idea that it is unworthy of interest and one should focus on the supposed beyond. This latter notion sits alongside its opposite in the body of work we are supposed to ascribe to the convenient portmanteau figure, 'Paul', who himself cannot simply be assumed to express 'Christ's teaching', so the whole debate seems to me merely a product of polemics.
Accuse Jesus of magics all you want, but he made eminent moral sense, and that is why he carries the day as far as I am concerned, all his "miracles" are neither here nor there in terms of persuasive force. Had it been only the miracles, his fame would have lasted as long as Michael Jordan's.
lobro | 06.11.07 - 9:57 pm | #
Lobro, truly well said.
The only marvellous thing about the Jewish negation of Jesus is the large number of reasons appended to the case in the Talmud.
- Jesus didn't exist
- Jesus did exist, but everything he said was old news
- If Jesus did exist, he was a criminal and a heretic
- Jesus maybe existed, but for sure the Romans killed him
- The Messiah claims for Jesus are incorrect
- The Divinity claimed for Jesus is irrational and unholy
All this sound a fury, and not a word about the teachings of Jesus that turned the world of the Mediterranean on its head.
The last 2,000 years could be seen as a debate between Jesus and the Pharisees, custodians of the Talmud; and the Pharisees are not yet finished.
oh, rubbish. Strategically, the idea of forcing 'the Jews' back into the medieval straightjacket of orthodoxy can only come from the rabbinates themselves, so I hope they pay you well, Cal.
If we take the attitude that the world can't be improved than there is no point in coming out of our cave.
Cal, you said you would like to brush up your German, so you may find this site/multimedia archive interesting:
http://unglaublichkeiten.com/Archiv/
Just take a look at their film archive pre-1945:
http://nsl-archiv.org/Filme/Bis-1945/
If Wochenschau Newsreel is your cup of tea, you will definitely enjoy it.
If it was Platon´s description to part material from ideas, - but probably it´s not so simple: thought it was in this hellenistic world, the pharisees had their appearance and at this time of Jesus there could have been connections to hindu philosophy.
It goes on to today, as the physicists demonstrate. The mystery is the consciousness of the living beeings: the modern science has´nt disproved that the material objects have only such qualities because we are used to and have learned to perceive the world in such a manner, and can also change it.
Moral advice is good for us so that we don´t get entangled in obstacles on the way of evolving consciousness.
As is observed , probably, the pharisees refused any of these concepts until now and believed only in the laws.
Thus, as in psychological warfare, all that is available to structure the situation is beliefs about beliefs, which one then has to try to manipulate in a way that is psychologically and spiritually productive for oneself
This tallies with my interpretation, at least to some extent.
Psywar is the keyword here.
In war, the purpose is to gain dominion over another individual, group, society or resources and maintain this dominion by use of force and intimidation.
The victor convinces the loser of his supremacy and futility of resistance.
What is Israel if not a shining example, more psywar even than a hot war?
What is the Jewish entity through the ages if not an even more overarching case in point? All their pressure groups, worldwide control of media, endless boasting, wheedling, propaganda are just psywar ploys.
This is Talmud, all else is ... supply your own smartass remark.
Magic(k) is the spawn of the same litter.
A magic(k)ian employs either the ability to defy (known) laws of physics or create an illusion of such in order to convince the target audience of his spiritual supremacy, i.e., I am the leader, you follow or else, and that is the reason for my caution.
Jesus (as depicted in the New Testament) is a true revolutionary, putting Che Guevara to shame.
He insisted that people follow his message of their own free will, on merits of logic of morality, no carrots, no sticks.
And therein lay the deadly danger to Talmud, this is the reason for the everlasting hatred of all things Jesusian.
Over and over again, over many centuries, we, the goys have been pounded over the head that they are inferior to jews, dumb, blind and only good to serve, that no matter what, we shall lose in any attempt to wrest ourselves free - just like Palestinians today - read the statements of the Zionist leaders, what they are saying to pals is what the diaspora jews have been saying (in so many words) to the rest of the West.
If I am Catholic, it is not because of baptism at birth when I had no say in the matter, it is now, by free choice, because I detest Talmud and everything it produced. The magic doesn't work on me.
Cal, that was one of your more astute observations, imho. So also is the "learned" reaction to it predictable.
"Don't disagree with me stupid."
If you put biblical history into a chiasmus timeline with Jesus at the meridian you see some interesting things. This Christ vs. anti-Christ conflict started from the beginning and it gains momentum and gets more refined as it progresses.
We tend to get caught up in our own drama and not see the big picture. Our study of history is limited to what got printed in the language we speak.
lobro,
Wow! Well said!
Something in man's psyche changed historically and radically with the Christ mythos. I agree completely.
What does the Talmud have to say about love? Being? Transcendence? Sacrifice and service to others? Nothing that is complimentary to human integrity. If it was written for and kept as the "Book" for Germans today they would be condemned as outlaws and "Nazi's". But the Jews get a free pass. I even believe that the Torah is soft Talmudism. It establishes them as "chosen" and their enemies are many, even Christ.
Old Testament Christians constantly quote from it at the expense of the "NEW". The Old gives justification to ignore the New. Who are the primary players destroying the U.S.? Protesters calling themselves Zionist Christians and the Zionist world view itself. Its all about justification based on God's chosen without the Christ.
There were debates in the Church against having the Old Testament tied to the New. Even today it is questioned.
I don't agree at all. I share Thompson's view that the actual contents of the 'new testament' are pretty much like the records of many other similar teachings from the period. However, various features of this particular tradition made it seem to the orthodox jewish hierarchs, on the one hand, and to the interested roman officials, on the other, that, given time and a bit of polishing up, these stories could create precisely the apparent contrast you are all talking about - 'eschatological tension' in the jargon - the intended reading is that jesus promised the end of oppressive jewish rule over non-jews, but that by killing him 'the jews' postponed the great change, which we will now have to expect only on his return. Thus, everyone learns to live in the 'tension ' - which lasts indefinitely.
lobro, T.E., what you describe as 'occultic' is more properly known as New Age, for which I carry no brief. Yes, there is a tremendous amount of ego involved there, and self-absorption to the point of exclusion of political or social activism. There also is a great deal of borrowing of the Eastern traditions, but totally jumbled.
I also know for a fact that many New Age groups have been infiltrated by the CIA, so think of them as just another exercise in mind control, as were many of the cults that appeared in America in the 70's. And New Age phenomena like crop circles and UFO's are just another distraction, I feel.
I appreciate Jung's honest attempts to understand the metaphysical elements of psyche, and just feel he didn't go far enough. You may want to look at the enneagram as another way on understanding human archetypes btw, it seems much in vogue in Catholic circles.
I'm a physician, in the field of mental illness. I'm interested in the fact that almost every child seems to go through a metaphysical period around about the ages of 5-7, after which they become more left-brained and forget their early occult and spiritual experiences. I trace the genesis of many psychological disturbances to that age, and my interest is of course in prevention and cure.
Astrology and Psychism then become tools of understanding the human condition, and I am quite happy to concede that Psychism is imperfect and the horoscope may not make the person, but the person makes the horoscope.
But in the course of my travels, I have observed some truly magical things, like Psychic surgery and Kahuna magic. Yes most of it is showy and fraudulent, but there are genuine practitioners, content to remain obscure yet still keeping their tradition alive, just being.
I also see that magic and the occult exists inside each of us, and you can see it as hard wired in our psyche; where we were, and where we're headed.
I prefer to explain this in simple terms, but understand it for myself in a scientific way. I would love to write this all down, since I've been studying it for more than 40 years, but there are many things I'm doing concurrently. Suffice to say there'll be a website, to cover all that.
Here's a sample: While some believe there are 7 chakras I believe there actually are 12, divided almost evenly between the material, psyche (soul aspects) and spiritual (the need to surrender to something greater than our ego)and the chakras are not only energy centers (batteries, memory depositories) but also doorways into other realities. If you can visualise Hindu mysticism combined with the Tao and Hermes Trismegistus, you'll get an idea.
As to the supposed discordance between religion or spirituality and metaphysical science, I think they are all part of who we are, and however we define the soul, the after life, Bardo, Karma, alternative dimensions and multi-universes, there is room for all that. We can focus just on what we know, or we can venture into t
or we can venture into the great unknown. As a scientist and a healer, that is what I choose.
I think that tibetan buddhism contains some of the most interesting speculations regarding the decomposition of consciousness at death into its (many) component parts, but this is mere theory. To experiment practically with this sort of thing you need either decades of arduous yoga or a few years of less arduous but more dangerous tantra.
At the same time I consider all institutionalisation of this sort of thing to be harmful - I have yet to see any indication that 'the OTO' is anything other than harmful to crowley students, for instance.
My point is not so much the person of Jesus as the grand idea of freedom, which may or may not have originated with him.
Therefore, the "eschatological tension" is illusion. Whether they killed him or not, whether he was ressurected or not, whether he plans a grand comeback or not, it is all irrelevant and may in fact serve the purpose of maintaining the desired "tension" to perpetuate their profane power, a religious glass ceiling so to speak.
The point is that I am free now and don't require some Cirque De Soleil show to instruct me on how to escape the bondage.
But I do grant you that "eschatological tension" is a useful concept in theory of mass control.
And finally, consider this: for all our blather, our presence is extremely lightweight and inconsequential.
Massive ignorance is our lot and recognizing this fact is the first baby step, we skip it and immediately fall on our faces.
Is there a universal justice, in terms of what we call suffering, etc.?
Damned if I know (and damned if i don't)
But to write it off simply because there is no easily accessible evidence is shortsighted if you subscribe to the notion of ignorance and therefore potentially dangerous.
The blind should not attempt bank robbery.
Continuing with Rowan and Juan's themes, this Christ vs anti-Christ meme is, quite correctly a recipe for permanent tension, while we all wait for the Messiah to appear and solve our problems.
So if the 'Christ' is a 'mythos' construct upon which we can project all our anthropomorphic fantasies, perhaps we should see the Anti-Christ as a simple man, who could be any of us, even if his name be Jesus, Lao-Tzu, Krishna or Buddha, offering simple moral solutions to those of us who would choose.
I'm a physician, in the field of mental illness
Atlan, but ... but Foxman called you a retard. How do you manage to wear both hats, was Honest Abe lying?
At any rate, a very interesting post, I need time to read it (being a fellow retard).
Again, as a visual, rather than verbal thinker (people, including my ex-wife often accuse me of dyslexia, not to mention ADD), I had some trouble slogging through Jung's work.
However, one single statement, which I now paraphrase struck me as the philosopher's stone:
Unconscious as a continuum that moves away from the frenetic center of confusion, doubt and fear that is ego, away from mere subconscious that provides agar-like nourishing substrate to ego, is ultimately the World.
Or something to that extent.
In topological terms, instead of positing an Inside and Outside, separated by some boundary layer, he thought of it as a smooth transformation (schlicht, ja Fritz? I love that word, there is no english equivalent) without holes or singularities and the "boundary layer" is simply the extent of how far the illumination of our intellect carries into the Unknown.
I think Jung's entire ouevre is all about obscuring the distinction between the biologically innate and the supernaturally intuited.
For instance, I am prepared to believe that the reaction of the fieldmouse when shown the silhouette of a hawk is biologically innate ('hard-wired').
But - either the human reaction to the appearance of an anima figure, or whatever other archetype, is innate, or it is supernaturally intuited. Which is it? Jung will never tell you, because his role is to confuse the two.
To tie a couple of loose ends, reading Jung's foreword to Evans' translation of the Tibetan Book of the Dead at the end of my high school was one of the defining moments.
Shortly thereafter, I was persuaded by a friend to join him on a trip to Sikkim, where I met many Tibetans in various monasteries.
What impressed me was their earthy sense of humour and reliance on non-verbal communication rather than any esoteric palaver.
hereby signed,above paper, lobro, TE, subscribed to your views. Even as protestants we were told that the message of Jesus is about liberation and freedom, even ressurection. Though protestants have more a problem with guilt.
As today Catholicism is most original, and M.Luther and maybe Orthodoxy. The ones of Calvinist origin really have a problem with the OT.
This probably is the reason for many atheists, that they refuse this tyrannical JHW of the OT, who looks like an invention of the pharisees.
The OT would mainly be good for to see what Jesus liberation was from. The same could be said about some others, like a tyrannical calendar of the Mayas (perhaps).
People who strive for freedom are unlikely to be interested in subdueing others. And accepting the joyful message would relieve us from the propaganda to dicard our whole history and to follow new stars (egomaniacs) from media and pseudoscience.
lobro, could have met you about 1972/3(?), but I was only in Rishikesh near Hardwar.
Rowan, the confusion is intentional, since he doesn't know.
In fact, he doesn't make a distinction between innate and intuited, as far as I can tell he considers such distinctions artificial and counterproductive.
At one point he describes the human existence as a rhizome of a plant.
The rhizome shoots up in spring, flowers, wilts and dies but the life-giving roots remain.
In this vein, was the flower product of rhizome's own activity or destined in the design of the root?
Psalm 102 of David has got it only partially right:
Man's days are like those of grass; like a flower of the field he blooms; the wind sweeps over him and he is gone, and his place knows him no more.
And that could be their trouble.
People who strive for freedom are unlikely to be interested in subdueing others
Words of wisdom Fritz. Great wisdom indeed.
Yes, I was there indeed in 72-73 and that time has marked me forever.
Since then I grew in girth only, about 40 pounds, all of it below neck.
At one point I passed through Rishikesh (1-2 days only) and was struck by just how insanely materialistic this supposedly holy city was.
However, Indians manage to contrive such contradictions in an almost likeable, guileless manner.
Fat superstar gurus, gaudy temples, hawkers everywhere, even the monkeys along the bridges are very capitalistic and grasping.
Yet, in all the din and clamour, I may have detected some quiet and quality activity, some people who didn't talk much but more than made up with shining eyes full of recognition.
Er, is it possible that it can be both biologically innate and supernaturally intuited? Or so I believe.
I would think so and moreover, they may be thought of as one and the same.
Whereas people think in terms of mutually exclusive clusters of attributes that make up "I" and "You" and "World", Jung may have had a fuzzy-set kind of arrangement in mind, where such distinctions are arbitrary.
In fact, I had the impression that the Eastern thinkers pitied us for being the prisoners of language.
And indeed, language can be misused as a tool of enslavement.
Atlan, I have a problem with your ideology (for lack of a better word) in that it tends to etherialize everything.
It can even be sexually attractive, in a heady sort of way fascinating, alluring, but then there is the dirty nitty gritty world where we all live.
Head in the clouds while we dig ditches as mental escape from slavery.
That's the real difference, in my view between this occult (whether it is astrology or sitting cross legged in trance) and the Christian freedom of "know the truth". Christianity is hands on living... deeds. And like a Dr David Richo I read once said, "and deeds always means relationships"
@lobro, ´schlicht´ as: smooth transformation. good, because: carpenters use `schlichten´, meaning: to make a piece of wood smooth, even; also as ´simple`, without decorations; and to settle a quarrel: Streit schlichten.
The better as Jung used it, or as C.Castaneda, like in: "Society forces us to use all our energy to fulfill a established behavioral pattern. Though Humans have inevitably to break through the parameters of our normal perception, but instead of attempting to go straight through a wall, and since we can´t gain new energy, we have to redistribute our enery and then smoothly through. Humans have concsiousness as their only means of evolution..."
With the many words in New age, I have a problem too: all speak about "energy". Better like CG.Jung and C.C. to investigate old myths and technics and to translate them into modern language or see how they can be used.
(sorry my knowledge is´nt so widespread, so this example)
Jung himself stated on several occasions that different 'races' possess different contents in their respective "collective unconsciousnesses". In other words, its innate, but to say so nowadays is considered racist, so we all pussyfoot around trying to sound 'spiritual'. Excuse me for remaining completely unimpressed by all this and similar nonsense.
(schlicht, ja Fritz? I love that word, there is no english equivalent)
uh huh... Schlitz with fizz.
just kidding.
I didn't know it meant smooth.
I enjoyed your topological analogy, lobro. It set me looking for a spiritual counterpart to the Banach-Tarski theorem. Infinity in a grain of sand.
schlicht is prounounced ShliHt (that "H" is heard as in "Nicht").
Schlitz is something quite different, not sure ... could it mean the fly as in "pants' fastening"?
Anyway, my German is sadly lacking.
I only know "schlicht" from school days when it was used to describe properties of certain functions, where "smooth" was insufficient.
The old "Bell" (Gaussian) curve, so beloved of psychologists and social scientists is a graphic example of a schlicht function.
No fizz at all.
I am trying to recall the term used in engineering computation meaning to take the high spots and put them into the lows in order to make a road bed smooth.
Averaging would do it mathematically, but thats not specifically descriptive enough. Nor would a bell curve define it.
All I can remember is "When you're out of Schlitz, you're out of beer."
Yes, it is interesting to note that banach tarski works only if one point is removed from an otherwise uncountably dense sphere.
Translating to the psychological counterpart, the question remains whether this central point exists or is illusory.
Jung was smart enough to intuitively steer clear of this vexing topic.
But I am afraid it is all schlicht and no Schlitz, as Juan may complain.
Lucky for us, we still have Budweiser to smooth out the rough spots.
@lobro, ´schlicht´ as: smooth transformation. good, because: carpenters use `schlichten´, meaning: to make a piece of wood smooth, even; also as ´simple`, without decorations; and to settle a quarrel: Streit schlichten.
Well, maybe we imputed mysterious meanings to schlicht, but it served our purpose.
Take some continuous (more or less, not to get too technical) function (graph, curve, whatever) and differentiate it.
The newly resulting function is generally "smoother", i.e., has fewer bumps ... a quadratic function is thus "schlichted" into a line, which is then "schlichted" into ... nothing, gone. A cubic function would require one more swing of the carpenter's plane.
But a schlicht function is infinitely differentiable, smooth as smooth can get, all of its offspring obtained by differentiation are still schlicht.
Like never losing Super Mario powers.
Even the offspring of the Greek pantheon were mortal unlike those of a schlicht function.
Thus our lasting respect for the word "schlicht", the carpenter's plane never stops.
Jung himself stated on several occasions that different 'races' possess different contents in their respective "collective unconsciousnesses".
Did he though? I was not aware of that.
He uses the term "racial" in a different context, as in "race of men".
His central thesis was that people from all over the world possess these common psychic denominators, expressing themselves as archetypes, avatars, mandalas, what have you and that they are the generators of creativity, artistic and otherwise.
A person preumably advances from simpler, more mundane types (shadow, anima-animus through Hero and onward to the Old Man/Woman and finally some disembodied idea of Self).
This voyage is far from ethnocentric but universal.
Whether it is nonsense or not is beyond my capacity to test, I just know that I like it and prefer Coke to Pepsi.
What was missing in much of the above comments was the problem of "repression" as a factor. A child first feels the "tension" of the external world as a fetus. Conditioning begins that early thru the mothers disposition formed from personal and external events.
If the primary impulse is to evolve "toward" the repression of the movement toward/into life can be curtailed manifesting itself as "mental illness".
As far as some people not being "impressed" I have notice that when I really get to know someone I'd find out that an overwhelming personal history arises that more often then not is do to problems with parents or some phyical traumatic spontaneous event. Not independent nature but social and individual experiences more often then not are the primary cause. How ever oppressive or liberated a culture is it becomes the only show in town in which to adjust to for the simple dynamic of survival. One can't never overlook conditioning as a primary source of mental illness of an individual, a community or even a nation. Why are western cultures (especially U.S. and U.K.) the largest user's of anti depressions? You have to see the whole picture (history in general and personal history) to determine what is natural and what is illness on an individual bases or national level. I think that all of us are held together with the same glue, its just our cultures, emotional and inviorments that mold our obstructed relationship with the world around us.
And in the immortal words of Stevie Wonder, "when you believe in things you don't understand, then you suffer. Very superstitious."
If Wochenschau Newsreel is your cup of tea, you will definitely enjoy it.
Xenophile | 06.12.07 - 7:27 am | #
Thanks, Xenophile; very kind of you to think of this. The material shall definitely be useful.
Your conclusion is similar to mine Tiger.
I deduced in the aftermath of catharsis, that it is all just in levels of co-dependency.
Chose your own.
Some have it in relationships, with parents, spouse, then family, then extended family, then community, then at a national level, and then eventually, like the jews at the level of a chosen race.
The more of those levels, the more screwed up, and the harder to break free. Most of these problematic jews have it in all of the above.
Rowan
As you should realize, "full preterism" solves the tension.
It is also the desire to belong. Contrary to the notion that what individuals seek most is "personal freedom". When asked "From what?" the reply often resembles an adolescent fantasy.
http://www.esoteric.msu.edu/
Volu...g_the_Beast.htm
was Crowley really an expert on Tantra?
" Atlan, I have a problem with your ideology (for lack of a better word) in that it tends to etherialize everything"
Juan, that is only if you assume that mine is an 'Eastern' philosophy, with all the decorative stereotypes associated with it in the eyes of many (lobro is right in that the East sees the West as slaves of language; and that it tends perhaps to generalise everything?)
We aren't all yogis clad in loincloth, and I think we all, non-christians as well, know this:
Deeds count.
But my personal philosophy lies in seeking the proto-, or root religion from which all other philosophies spring, and therefore I can't say I am East or West. I do see elements of it in Hildegarde of Bingen and Paramahamsa Yogananda, Che Guevara, Arjuna and Joan of Arc, and what difference is there really between the Egyptian and Tibetan Books of the Dead? Jung may describe an advancement through several stages of growth to a final one of disembodiment, which is an Eastern philosophy, or, the root religion I describe.
One can spend Rowan's many years of yoga, or less, of dangerous tantra. Yet, experiencing the transcendental does not make one an insufferable egomaniac or an ethereal being unstuck in the hurly burly of life. Those are choices; I believe that without compassion or getting one's hands dirty all of that is naught.
...yes Tiger Eye, even if our culture had some flaws, but it´s grown and is keeping the experiences of ages, a basis from which to venture wherever it may take us.
...lobro, I understand now that these are many exact terms for the shape of functions, curves. It´s amazing for me layman to look into a book of Algebra, great respect for this "crystal of logic" and well arranged it is.
...Rishikesh probably was, as you describe: capitalistc, also I´ve wondered about those big Ashrams, the swami usually was away on tour in Europe. I did´nt know much, was naive, read a little, just lived at some swami´s who rented rooms near the Ganga, but once it was mystical, when they sung all night ancient brahmanic songs on the river. The same once in a catholic pilgrimage church, they were singing all night on a mountain in the Alsace.
oh, rubbish. Strategically, the idea of forcing 'the Jews' back into the medieval straightjacket of orthodoxy can only come from the rabbinates themselves, so I hope they pay you well, Cal.
Rowan Berkeley | Homepage | 06.12.07 - 7:10 am | #
Your statement is complete gibberish. I haven't the faintest idea what it is you're referring to, nor what it is you mean. What on earth have you been smoking, RB?
remembering, in the Alsace (Elsass), on the mountain of St.Odilia, an ancient heathen place near Strassburg, a church of a monastery, they´re singing, reading and praying there for years continuously, changing lay people from the villages.
It is also the desire to belong. Contrary to the notion that what individuals seek most is "personal freedom". When asked "From what?" the reply often resembles an adolescent fantasy.
Tiger Eye | 06.12.07 - 6:24 pm | #
TE, interesting that you should report the question that way; i.e., "freedom . . . from what?". That leads quite naturally to the Rooseveltian wish-list for fulfillment of miscellaneous fantasies that have nothing to do with freedom at all.
Has anyone ever thought to ask: "Personal freedom - Freedom to DO what?" Were the question to be put *that* way, I suspect the answers would be quite a bit different.
India has it all Fritz, I long to go back, like home. Of course, it is just my personal opinion.
However, for a taste of unadulterated Christianity, visit some of ancient St. Thomas Christian churches in the regions of Kerala and Madras the next time.
Cal,
I meant the statement to be one of "individual freedom" because American's have a shallow idea of freedom and few can articulate what they deem as freedom. For some of them it means everyone for themselves.
I reject the libertarian position because it is, for most libertarians I have spoken to, without personal responsibility. The new vassals owning the plantations. In corporate capitalism, as in state communism, the orders come from the top. They are not representitive of all citizens.
A PBS documentary some years ago compared a privately own pipe company with a workers owned company in the same type of area (inviorment), the difference was startling.
The private company has had constant job related deaths, injuries, federal, state and city violations due to safety and pollution violations, tremendous employee turn over and law suites against the company concerning labor laws. An absentee "owner" who owns many other pipe companies to this day who just pays the fines and does nothing to correct the dangers because he thinks its cheaper then halting production under these conditions. The building are rotting away.
The worker owned company elected its own head man from their employees and can have him demoted back to his previous position if the company under his watch doesn't produce results. All employees progress through a time and grade pay system (even the head man whose salary increases because of his position and status change in grade), are fully covered with medical benefits, the best 30 year retirement pension in the industry and the lowest absenteeism in the industry. Their machinery is state of the art. No one has ever died working there only monor accidents. They have had no fines whatsoever, the waste water released into the local river is drinkable. The grounds are kept up, the building maintained to the point that it looks like it was built yesterday rather than nearly a hundred years ago. Only one employee quite his job in forty years because his father needed him for the family business. The company sponsors family events and encourages worker input on every level. They have more time off because of their family obligations. It produces the finest pipe and its product is in great demand here and in Europe. It is truly locally owned.
The original owner was a very religious man and had sympathy and admiration for working people and decided to bequeath his company to his workers when he died.
That's freedom. One does not shit where one eats.
I'm personally against interest, compound interest and even profit. But that's another long subject for this comment thread.
lobro,
Its interesting that you refered to Kerala. I had just recently read that the state is beautiful and one of the most developed western states in India.
Christians , Hindu's, Muslims living together peacefully. Ironically I also read that the poorest state, Calcutta, borders on its eastern border.
I was thinking if I had the opportunity to go to India my first stop would be there.
Kerala is tropical hot though on the sea and has also forests, jungles, maybe cooler hills, tea-plantations, it´s shurely better than most states. I only went through tangentially.
All India is terribly crowded, the people and traffic must have multiplied since then, a true impression of the state of affaires on earth. But as always there will be marvellous corners, hills, mountains, and philosophers. Madras extemly hot, asphalt melting, but a great little concert in the music school.
that is only if you assume that mine is an 'Eastern' philosophy, with all the decorative stereotypes associated with it in the eyes of many
Guilty as charged. It does make sense that your apperception is more eclectic.
I did find some of the Eastern philosophy interesting. I have read Yogananda's book and some of the other writings online.
The argument that no one except the rabbis want to force the jewish israelis back into the ghetto of orthodoxy is not only not gibberish, it is a statement of obvious fact.
What is interesting is that christian bigots refuse to recognise it, preferring to maintain a medieval fantasy to the effect that all jews are actually in occult rapport with one another and executing a fiendish and satanic plan, pretending to be engaged in profound conflict with one another just to sucker you in.
What's the point of caring about jewish "israelis"? They're just in transit to U$holia anyway.
you have a scheme to move them all to the USA?
"It is remarkable that the states whose public opinion is in favour of the Jews all refuse to accept our Jews from us. They say they are magnificent pioneers of culture, and geniuses in economics, diplomacy, philosophy, and poetry, yet the moment we try to press one of these geniuses upon them, they clamp down their frontiers: ‘No, no! We don’t want them!’ I think it must be unique in the history of the world, people turning down geniuses."
- Dr. Paul Joseph Goebbels
There are other ghettos besides orthodoxy. Dershowitz & Co certainly want to keep the Jews corralled with the idea that they are Jews first and foremost. 'The Vanishing Jew' fear and guilt, it worked on the goy and it works on the jew. A physical ghetto is preferable to a mental one escape is easier.
Holocaustianity is the specific response of the non-orthodox jewish nationalist bosses wherever they are.
It is intended to prevent even non-orthodox jews from assimilating, by erecting a barrier of pavlovian dread and hatred.
However, if the orthodox rabbinates managed to regain control over the various jewish organisations across the world, there would be no need to maintain the conditioning system of holocaustianity, since the older and more thorough system of control would be back.
holoscam isn't posting correctly.
So then do we say that the jews allowed the truth to come out about the holocaust because they had the old system back in control or is it that they realized the truth was going to come out so they put the old system back? Chabad is getting their money from somewhere and that where must realize what is going on as far as public opinion.
You mean, if the orthodox rabbinates managed to regain control over the various organisations across the world AND managed to turn the clock back 200 years thus revoking the Haskalah.
Is this a counterfactual argument or just a figment of imagination, RB?
Islam has gone back to more orthodoxy, why not the jew? Christianity is just disintegrating, imo
the idea of reversing the haskalah is neither counterfactual nor figmentary. Look at the USA for heavens sake.
besides, 'reversing the haskalah' is exactly what all these religious nutters here on this list want - they think that if 'the Jews' were forced to choose between classical orthodoxy and conversion to xianity, they would choose the latter - which to these nutters would be wonderful.
Many jews still hold the old wisdom as true:
"Better to be in the hand of a Goy, than in the mouth of a Rabbi."
Lay assimilation is abhorrent to Rebbes and Zionists alike, but in the middle ground there is still a chance neither narrative will be hegemonic.
In any case, external threats or even extreme situations like pogroms could push middle jews either way. Lay Israel, I submit, has a stronger messianic appeal than Orthodox judaism.
Ergo, come what may, Haskalah stays.
if 'the Jews' were forced to choose between classical orthodoxy and conversion to Xianity
if it was true that would be a wonder (maybe), but as can be observed that "US evangelicals" and other protestant to some extend move nearer to the OT belief of fear and even Zionism.
Though by holding on to ones own values, as Tiger Eye is describing, the catholik not as "superstitious" believer but as one from his belief motivated to take responsibility and so beeing even economically successful.
Examples show than how unattractive the jewish ideas of usury and speculation and bad entertainment are. All philosophies can be asked how they hold it with responsibility. A warrior does´nt litter the world.
Then people or government stop this financial speculation. "Jew" will be un-attractive for themselves too.
In the middle ages the towns created their own banks in Germany and Jews became beggars and peddlers. They moved to the East and Poland then to continue their evil habits of usury, but this must not be allowed.
I don't see anyone trying to convert the jews here...that's a frick'n strawman.
though tere´s talk about, what a weird ides, the Isrl.jews immigrating anywhere. "You are responsible for us victims of the muslim fascists!"
Even the strategy of the Iraq Afghan war towards the Caspian sea can be seen as the collective unconscious attempt of the Khazar rulers to get to their home, the steppes north of the Caspian.
Tigs, by all means check out Kerala. An interesting corollary of having nearly 100% literacy rate and universal health care is the fact that their state legislature has been uninterruptedly Communist.
Also, Calcutta is in the eastern state of West (?) Bengal, almost 2000 clicks to the NE.
Also a tremendously interesting city in its own right with a rich intellectual culture, great outdoor cafes and animated discussion about topics ranging from poetry to politics (natch!) to philosophy and everything in between.
And they speak proper English except that they never heard of "political correctness".
"Hate speech" is great free fun there.
However, if the orthodox rabbinates managed to regain control over the various jewish organisations across the world, there would be no need to maintain the conditioning system of holocaustianity, since the older and more thorough system of control would be back.
You are on the right track, I think. And in my view, it would be preferrable to today's status and stealth warfare, web of lies and intimidation.
However nasty rabbis can be, the damage they inflict is mainly on their own, which can pretty much be broadened to apply to any other religious entity.
They can wear their funny hats and tassels all they want, it don't bother me none, just quit that tragicomic bellyaching about Holocaust.
What exactly is the point of dragging out medieval religious polemics, if not to convert them? Are you stupid or just self-oblivious?
that last remark was addressed to the stupidly named 'me'.
lobro : the reasoning you offer is precisely the reasoning calculated to ensure that all jewish israelis unite to defend their national independence, if necessary by using their nuclear weapons (the 'samson option').
Fritz, why don't you drop this talk of Khazars being 'false jews'?
This fits only a fundi paranoid mindset according to which the 'real jews' are the 'real chosen people' with a 'real right' to the Holy Land.
This is crap through and through, useless to understanding the world, and unbecoming of a fair minded person interested in reasoned argument.
It's not my scheme, but theirs. Yitzhak wants Schlomo to stay in Izzy, while he himself high-tails it. If necessary, like Burg, they produce hifalutin' guff to justify such a course of action.
absolutely right, xeno, you saved me the time of working up another nasty comment.
smekhovo, you also seem to be stupid. Can you not grasp that jews, like other mortals, are divided into antagonistic parties? Are you still hooked on this ridiculously superstitious idea that their divisions are only make-believe and that they have some means of tacit coordination behind the scenes, unknown to the rest of mankind?
Are you incapable of understanding three simple sentences, RB? The next step, to spell it out in excruciating detail, is that Yitzhak and Schlomo both move to Florida, each trusting that the other will stay in Izzy. Where is the tacit coordination in that scenario?
Whoa, RB, time to raise the dosage of your sedative!
Let me add that the ridiculously superstitious idea, while often exaggerated, has an important element of truth in it.
It will take more than sedatives to keep me from noticing when the remaing jewish israelis (the theocrats) nuke mecca.
I am so wasting my time here. Everyone who has anything much to say on this list (except me) turns out to be some sort of religious idiot.
I choose neither. Read what I say not what you think I say. Nothing I said was unreasonable or untrue.
Rowan,
I think "Me" has raised good point.
Why has Islam gone back to more orthodoxy?
Not so sure, Rowan.
Is it not the case that orthos argue that the State of Israel is an abomination in the eyes of yahweh, a heresy and sacrilege?
Presumably, since the State was founded on the false messiah of holocaust, it is of no use to them and they would prefer the old eschatological tension, like most everyone else.
Today's Israel is a prematurely squeezed zit, so to speak, to everyone's embarrassment.
It didn't deliver on its promise of earthy paradise despite all the early socialist folk dancing in kibbutzes, and with each passing day devolves into an ugly quagmire.
That is why izzys are racing like lunatics to take over the entire world before their fake little prayer rug is pulled out from under their feet.
Like a naval action where a crew of a leaky lifeboat takes over a cruiser.
It may well be that the Lube rabbis see the inanity of the situation and are planning for long term, sucking up to Putin (Let My people In).
As for converting them, tits on bull.
It makes as much sense as me wearing hassid gear.
I prefer to see them clearly for what they are.
In fact, on occasion I had to work with them in some collaborative capacity and we generally never had the slightest problem. The ones that were assholes were recognized as such by the others.
I realise that I often express myself in an effervescent way that isn't maximally clear. So, ye gods and goddesses, let me be clearer:
The zionist bastards have trapped us, in that, if we don't ensure that their filthy centre-left party retains sufficient leverage to prevent it, the state, and its entire military might, will certainly fall into the hands of rabbinical genocidalists.
You got me, now?
Once they no longer have Captain America to spoil them, they'll collapse like a pricked souffle.
A tribe of confidence men won't turn into Samsons, despite their bluster and whining.
Well, maybe a good genocidal dustup is just what the big doctor in the sky ordered for this suffering earth.
If they were to unleash some nukes on EU and I believe that USA mainland is within the reach, who will talk about holocaust then?
Or will another 6 mil euro-sayanim materialize in time to claim the jackpot again?
And where does it leave izzy and aipac and all their malodorous spawn in the aftermath?
Do they think that all the powers will just sit on their quisling little hands?
The other option is the worldwide hemorrhage, all the wolfowitzes, perles, feiths, netanyahus, abramses, whose names are a legion, to keep their fangs in the arteries of the world.
I wonder where you get your preconceptions from, smekhovo. It certainly isn't from the actual people in the field, whom you can ascertain quite quickly even without reading hebrew include a good number of lubavitchers, and others, who believe that 'god' actually wants them to nuke amalek, and that this 'god' will make everything just dandy again afterwards - 'a new heaven and a new earth' so to say.
people used to wonder how serious reagan's use of the 'madman tactic' was in negotiations with russia (he liked to encourage the idea that his government really was full of 'better dead than red' types, and it did contain a lot of the same genocidal neocons as dubya's).
neocons are to some extent game players, so it is possible that they don't really view the idea of an uninhabitable planet with the equanimity they pretend.
orthodox rabbis, on the other hand, really do view it with equanimity, if not with positive longing.
orthodox rabbis, on the other hand, really do view it with equanimity, if not with positive longing.
Is this an attributable claim, without regressing to now discredited medieval sources?
In other words, are there links to current rabbis with wide following who advocate fresh destruction of amalek?
If so, Putin's mollycoddling of lubes (who seemingly disown izzy) is questionable.
"medieval religious polemics"
not to be overseen, behind there are lieing now 200 years of discussion, beginning with the "enlightenment", Kant.. about the role of reason and morale.
Religious is inasfar justified as pure ration has´nt succeeded. Had people followed Kant, there would be "eternal peace" between countries. A moral law would have to be applicable to everyone., no double standards.
But this law must be on a basis of "love thy neighbor or at least respect". This is the christian basis.
The Talmud is mentioned occasionally to find a clue why we in modern time have: double standards, lies, fraud, robbery almost institutionalized. If the Jews were merchands like the Phoenicians, Levantines or Armenians, they had the same role to play as them.
But Xenophile, how can you let the Khazars dissapear so easily? never mind, good trick.
I don't think lubavitchers actually disown izzy any longer. They were chosen just to piss off the 90s jews.
I don't take rabbinical firebreathers at their own valuation, that's all, I think they are cowardly as well as vicious creatures.
what the lubavitcher method is is this: they maintain like the traditional ultra-orthodox that zionism was a mistake, but they also maintain (the last rebbe established this line) that once any part of the supposed 'land of israel' is in the hands of jews (not, not in the hands of the zionist government, but in the hands of jews), it is forbidden to relinquish it to non-jews.
Thus the government is in reality being condemned for not being zionist enough, but the trick of saying that 'zionism' is merely secular and thus no good anyway hides this fact.
Avrom Shmulevich, the gun toting rabbi of hebron, as he likes to be seen, is more honest : he describes his doctrine as 'hyper-zionism'.
I'm obviously stuck at that point one so often reaches in politics, where the only alternative to the really horrible reality is even more horrible.
Does such a predicament make one a "neo-nazi"?
As all recall, nazism arose in great part as a rebellion against the perpetual rock and the hard place.
which would make the idea of "nazism" a part of the talmudic dialectic, perpetual war, creative destruction, destruction of amalek, holocaust, ingredients and seasoning in talmudic brew.
beasts should never cease to toil, as soon as something is built, the masters destroy it.
I stole this from "5"
The threat with nukes must be considered as a dirty threat and has to lead to disarmament. or as desperation. All the time I suspected that behind the holoc.prop. hidden is the nuclear threat, according to R.McNamara. So they are no more crazy than Kennedy. Could be the nukes are deactivated by UFOs already.
what I am trying to get across certainly includes the idea that it is in the interest of the jewish right (I mean, the rabbis, the theocrats, and their hangers on) that jews should be treated with the maximum of nazi style hostility - all of them - so that they are driven back into the supposed security of the ghetto.
the state of israel is not (yet) a ghetto in this religio-social sense, but throughtout the history of the state, the religious parties have controlled such matters as marriage and conversion, which allows them to prevent any challenges to their power among the ordinary population by means of the implicit threat of blacklists.
I suspect we will look back on today as the first day of WW3 (or 4) - the black ops. guys have been blowing things up all over west asia.
yeah, the toppling shia minarets ... why not simplify matters and blame osama?
who else could possibly profit from an internecine muslim bloodletting, just like in lebanon and gaza?
Only osama and his convoy of moving vans.
...& really? nothing we could do, only to say now, Rowan, with most you´ve said about Israel I certainly agree: thats their psywar, threatening, fear..I say to myself: recommended be equanimity.
Each time I read Lauren Mauret she sounds a little bit more cracked, which is a pity because half of her facts (the ones concerning the effects of depleted uranium) are at least close enough to being accurate to make it clear that the planet earth is being turned into a death star(as she puts it).
The other half of her facts come from the well known conspirological trash bin.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/ind...ext=va&
aid=5949
Al Sadr is blaming the US/Israeli occupying combine for the bombing of Samarra. He seems to be the best hope for uniting the new Iraq into
a Shia-dominant but Sunni-tolerant
anti-American force.
I am such an idealist. At one point in the thread I actually believed
Berkely and Dalton were carrot-and-sticking the Jews.
I don't think there is much chance of defeating the black ops., Ken. They are all over southern asia, north africa, etc. Soon there will be some big black ops. in central and south america, i expect. Given this level of media concentration, there isn't much we can do to derail the associated black propaganda.
I don't know what you mean by "carrot and sticking the jews". There is no "the jews" of such uniformity that the same sets of carrots and sticks would work on all of them.
I glanced through that article by Moret as well, too bad that she is not a bit more discerning about separating fact from fancy, it contaminates the whole project.
But using dirty radioactive munitions to depopulate coveted territories through fatal disease is something that never occurred to me before, yet makes all the perverted sense in the world.
Warfarine, huh?
Look up Lebanon and Iraq, your favorite cheese sticks airdropped in the care package marked "DU".
Every time an "anti-Syrian legislator" is blown up, a Mossad swat team gets cited for work well done.
Same for shia mosques, minarets and pilgrimage sites in Najaf and elsewhere in Iraq.
Vatican next?
if the Vatican were bombed, would the world's Catholics exact revenge on the Jews, if the Yhids were the perpetrators? Tiger Eye, you have any idea?
lobro, Not next, but when the Zionist get ready to execute the Samson Option, the already planted nuke under the Vatican will go ka-boom! There is a lot of stuff there they don't want printed and disseminated to the world.
We would pray for them.
But there is the "justified" war scenario where one has to be responsible for the destruction of human life and not just sit back and watch it all on the 6 O'clock news. Many Jews are borderline faithful. There not the problem.
Do you think that they would want Islam and Christianity united against a historical enemy? Contrary to what people think, there is a shift away from Christian Zionism as it gets closer to the "end times". In other words, they have the courage of the dagger but not the blood.
All of this is so macabre and senseless, isn't it?
Muslims are trying to educate Christians about that T.E.
And even if the Vatican were to disappear tomorrow, Christianity would survive, even be stronger perhaps.
Didn't completely answer your earlier question, Tigs. The present negative connotation about 'cults' in the West only came about when too many Jewish girls ran off to Indian ashrams and the whole cult deprogramming business started, by a rabbi no less.
In the East there is a long tradition of mystery schools and religions with a progression from followers to discipleship. If that fulfills one's spiritual needs, fine.
Early Christianity was denounced as a cult by Jews, and persecuted by them before the Romans ever got into the act. Funny how it's come full circle, no?
Man,
"And even if the Vatican were to disappear tomorrow, Christianity would survive, even be stronger perhaps."
True Man.
If you want a faith revived and strengthen - attack it. Catholics, ex-Catholics and even non Catholics would rally around the "Mother" that spawned them. Ironically it would probably the best thing that could happen. Christians know that the faith doesn't dwell in a building structure. It dwells in the temple of the most Holy of Holies, that is, the human being.
p.s.,
When a faith is not recognizable by humanity it truly will stand alone, isolated. This is the problem with the "chosen". Exclusiveness, "I am above you", aparrently has it's own worst rewards.
All are invited to the banquet, even Abu Foxmen. He choses not to sit at the table of humanity. All the great faiths have more in common then not. I'm afraid it's that simple.
"Will you, won't you, will you, won't you, will you join the dance? Will you, won't you, will you, won't you, won't you join the dance?"
Lewish Carroll must have been a closet Hindu.
Peace.
"The lowest person, born even to a family of dog eaters, through devotional service to the Lord may liberate himself and a hundred generations of his family, past and future, while one born to the highest caste of priests, not engaged in devotional service to the Lord may not even free himself."
Well Rowan, if you're truly stuck between a rock and a hard place or a choice between horrrible and more horrible, perhaps you could shift your perceptions slightly? I find, when you look at something indirectly instead of
(cont'd) 20/20 vision, that helps to get into other dimensions. Sorry, but the metaphysical works for me, and I suspect, that's where you're coming from too, otherwise why study Crowley? It isn't all just Psychology.
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