"They aren't Pro Life, they are Pro Prohibition of medical decisions being made between a Doctor and their patient and Pro enforcing their religious faith on other."
Had he appeared before a jury of Democrat peers, Josef Mengele could have used that line of reasoning with the same authority.
He'd have been aquitted of course, and would probably have started a successful OBGyn practice in a nice progressive town.
""Josef Mengele could have used that line of reasoning with the same authority.""
Really, I didn't know his captives willingly agreed to the decision. The decision is ultimately the Patients, not the Drs.
Once you start supporting the Party that has, consistently, supported programs and practices that have demonstrably shown a reduction in the murder of innocent life, can you call yourself ProLife. Until then, you are Pro Judicial control of people's personal decisions.
Prohibition doesn't work, and neither does forcing your faith on others who don't share that same faith. But good luck with that while you wallow in the minority.
The Left . . more right than the Right is, and it shows!
Flash
I am proud of you Flash, your eyes have been opened.
People may be surprised to know that many of us are strong Hillary supporters, we just choose to keep our ballots secret for now.
"Really, I didn't know his captives willingly agreed to the decision."
I wonder if any "doctor" ever asked a baby if it minded being torn limb from limb at all, before going ahead and doing it.
Mengele defended his "practice" as ridding the planet of animals...much the same as explaination that pro-infanticide folks use when they say that the unborn are not human,
"The decision is ultimately the Patients, not the Drs."
Mengele would be proud of you Flash.
Isn't there something in the hypocratic oath that says something about "first, do no harm"? Unless the AMA has redefined decapitation and dismemberment I'm at a loss to understand how that one is reconciled.
"Prohibition doesn't work.."
There are hundreds of men and women in prison right now that would love to buy you a beer just as soon as our laws prohibiting murder are declared "non-viable" Flash.
Maybe Hillary will institute a "don't ask, don't tell" policy for them as a first step, eh?
I see that Sister is proud of you Flash, but I'm betting not for your support of infanticide.
Maybe she will help to open your eyes a bit further.
Tom, you keep killing babies while I continue to save them!
""Once you start supporting the Party that has, consistently, supported programs and practices that have demonstrably shown a reduction in the murder of innocent life, can you call yourself ProLife. Until then, you are Pro Judicial control of people's personal decisions.""
Sheesh, and you call yourself ProLife *rolling eyes*
Oh yes we need pro-life people in office
like the current administration who has no problem hiring soldiers of Fortune to do their killing for them.
I wish you wouldn't do that. Abortion isn't just a "medical decision", anymore than, say, a D&C of a blastula is, say, the dismemberment of a baby.
It's a complicated issue, laden with issues of both religious faith for some and legitimate questions about human rights for all, and oversimplifying it is, well, wrong.
Nobody says that Abortion is the right choice.
But I agree with Flash that pro life people never seem to be concerned about the children after they are born.
Or the poor and black that don't vote for them.
They are willing to cut every program they can, that helps children.
They certainly haven't been concerned about the poor in New Orleans.
Thank goodness for people like Brad Pitt, Rosie O'Donnell,
Ellen DeGeneris and other celebrities
who are putting their money and time to help those people Republicans choose to ignore
Joel, I'm not talking about "a D&C of a blastula", although that is just as wrong; I'm talking about the dismemberment of a human being...as in the chopping up of actual limbs that are clearly discernable as limbs.
If you have convinced yourself that abortion is all about mushing some gooey cellular material around with a Q-tip, well, you've got some studying to do.
I'm not going to get into the religious aspects of it...although my Catholic faith certainly has supported the formation of my morality, I don't need religion to know a henious, de-humanizing, savage act when I see one.
Besides, we are lucky enough to have the attendance of a Catholic nun...who better than she to speak to the religious aspects?
Sister? More eyes need opening!
Pretty easy to pretend you're some sort of independent voice from your chosen party in theory. A lot harder in practice.
That's why I was impressed with your independence about a year ago when you said you wouldn't vote for Hillary. And why I shrug my shoulders and just go "eh" as you slowly reconcile yourself to the Democratic party line as she comes ever closer to being the nominee.
... which you've done reluctantly on the basis that Mitch speaks for every single Republican and sparks just that one remote note that causes you to support your previous non-choice... or something... Let's face it, if that wasn't your reason, you would have found another.
I still like you Flash. I still respect you even. You're just no more independent in your voting than any other party-line Democrat. You just hate thinking you're that simple. But Hillary is still Hillary. Flash is still Flash. And only one of you is bending to support the other.
And we both know you'll feel at least a little dirty if your nominee is Hillary instead of Obama.
Swiftee -- yeah, I know: you see the D&C of a blastula as, in your words, "just as wrong" as what's usually called a "partial birth abortion."
It's a religious position, and not one that's defensible on secular grounds. (In my own religious tradition, that "partial birth abortion" would be obligatory -- not optional -- to save the life of the mother; that's okay, you're not bound by Talmudic law at all, and I'm not, either, in this country, or in any other on this planet. Thankfully; my own people can be just as messhugenah as yours.)
You're entitled to your religious position, and to urge it on others, either on religious or on its weak secular grounds; I don't think it's persuasive and -- and I'm going to try to be as nice as I can here, which is not very -- you're going to continue to be unpersuasive to folks who think that legal decisions should be made on secular grounds in the future as you have been in the past.
To your political point of lessor of two evils, Flash I agree with you.. In Reverse.
Regarding unwanted or neglected children....better to be alive and deprived than dead.....
Joel your comments are reasonable...
And by the way Bush has SPENT much more that Clinton ever did on entitlement programs so if that is your measure of success, Bush clearly has done the better job in that regard... overall increases in non defense spending over his term would make most bean counters choke....It's never enough for you is it...To be fair he has spent like a Democrat but your abortion litmus test clouds your judgment....and it is people like you you who are distracting an "issues based campaign" with this devisive rhetoric and it reveals you are no moderate...quit kidding yourself and trying to fool everyone else
I'm sorry Joel, I must have stated my position awkwardly.
What I was trying to say was that...
I'm not going to get into the religious aspects of it...although my Catholic faith certainly has supported the formation of my morality, I don't need religion to know a henious, de-humanizing, savage act when I see one.
For what it's worth, had I been present to make my opinion known at the time, I never would have bought Josef Mengele's messhugenah excuses on religious grounds either.
"Regarding unwanted or neglected children....better to be alive and deprived than dead..... "
Not all the programs I refer to is post birth. I also refer to common sense education, along with Birth control access rather that the insane abstinence only approach. Another faith based projection into politics.
Some day soon you all will join true ProLifers like me to work to end this horrendous act, rather than just providing lip service with alternate goals in mind.
Flash
Swiftee -- what's usually called "partial birth abortion" is an easy target, in part because it's late-term, but largely because it's, well, obviously horrible. That said, were it somebody I loved who was pregnant, and my choice (it wouldn't be), and the choice was either that procedure, or a dead pregnant woman and a live baby, it wouldn't be a close call. (And yeah, I know: that's not the only choice in a lot of cases where the procedure is used; it apparently is, in some.)
But just as abortion choice advocates prefer to talk about very early term D&Cs, anti-abortion advocates prefer to focus on what they call "partial birth abortions."
Both are part of the picture, but the focus is -- in both cases -- fundamentally dishonest.
That said, with Roe v. Wade not going away shortly if at all, I'd encourage those of you who have strong feelings on the issue to talk about it, at length, and focus on the hard cases from your viewpoint -- the secular reasons, for example, you think that early D&Cs should eventually be made unlawful; or why abortion choice advocates think that elective "partial birth abortion" shouldn't be subject to any limitation beyond the ability of finding somebody with an MD willing to perform one.
" Swiftee -- what's usually called "partial birth abortion" is an easy target, in part because it's late-term, but largely because it's, well, obviously horrible."
The difference between partial birth and a six week abortion is only a matter of degree when you are willing to parse the meaning of "human".
You have actually given me a really fine opportunity to explain what I mean:
"That said, were it somebody I loved who was pregnant, and my choice (it wouldn't be), and the choice was either that procedure, or a dead pregnant woman and a live baby, it wouldn't be a close call."
See here's the thing Joel. When Mrs. Swift delivered yours truly, I was missing something that I guess comes as standard for some people.
My packaging didn't include my guarantee of superiority...can you imagine?
So, try though I might I am unable to EVER make the decision of who gets to share the planet with me and who gets put into the ground or flushed down the toilet.
Oh, it's not that there haven't been times I've been tempted to make that decision, even though I'm not properly equipped. There are people being held in cages because they have committed henious crimes like, well like cutting someone up into little pieces and disposing of the remains.
A lot of the guaranteed superior people think the cage is too good for 'em, and sometimes I really, really want to stick my chest out and say "Yeah, so says I"!
But I can't.
The worth of someone else's life can't be a matter of degree for someone not guaranteed superior. Love 'em or hate 'em I'm just another human...can you feel my pain?
The best I can do Joel is to say that even though I'm not guaranteed superior, I AM free to make a judgement regarding the worth of someone else's life when they are *in the act* of making that judgement for someone else, with a gun, or a knife or a rock or whatever.
Only then can this poor wretch act.
So I guess maybe I'm jelous. Maybe the problem is that I'm pissed off that I can't tell someone "Hand over the programs or the baby dies".
Flawed to the core...good thing Mrs. Swift had the same deficiency I did or I might have ended up in a stainless steel bowel.
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