Martuni or Bust
We all mourn the tragic loss of Hrant Dink and condemn his murder!!!
But Mr. Ara - why do you have to speak of such outmoded issues as "royal ruling families" in the context of restitution. You do not have to wait for genocide recognition to pursue any claims your family may have in Istanbul.
It is the Armenian people, the bulk of which were peasants and farmers, that lost the most in 1915...They lost their ancestral homeland.. Enough talk of privledge and royalty!!!Let's talk of the masses of disenfranchised Armenians and the compensation they justly seek and struggle for.
This is what Hrant Dink was all about!!!
MY SYMPATHIES TO HRANT FAMILY...HE WAS TRULY AN ARMENIAN MARTYR...WKE UP TURKEY...YOU CAN'T DENY HISTORY...FESS UP TO YOUR PAST...IN MEMORY OF MY GRANDPARENTS MURDERED BY THE TURKS IN 1915...
Arapo, you can talk of the masses all you want, since it’s obvious we all lost our ancestral homeland, and I personally don’t see any need in debating this with anyone.
Legally speaking, we are entitled to what was rightfully ours and thus my family happened to have a great deal of material wealth that is now in the hands of those that murdered many members of my family. The fact is that I’m a descendent of the royal family (that’s why I mentioned it and not to make it sound like I’m better than anyone) and we happened to own banks, factories, buildings and land that me and my relatives are entitled to claim that will put out on the street many of those that wished and carried out death to our hero Hrant Dink.
We need Genocide recognition since as far as I know those things taken from us as an act of Genocide can be recovered since there is no statue of limitations, where as misappropriation by a now non-existent government will be an uphill battle. There may be others who have larger and smaller claims as my family does, thus I’m only interested in what is rightfully due me and my family, meaning I’m not interested in sharing what belongs to others, as I’m not interested in sharing what belongs to me.
Of course further talking about this issue is like taking off your shoes before even being close to the water, so we will have to wait and see how far recognition goes and then deal with restitution after that.
Royal Family????????? But which one might that be?????????
Pardon my asking....
"Once the Genocide is recognized by the United States Government, it will be time to pursue restitution. My family who was once the ruling royal family in Armenia has many prime real estate holding that were stolen from us in down-town Istanbul as well as other parts of present day Turkey. You can be sure that we will reclaim those lands and buildings"
So, are you saying that the U.S has the authority to hand out parts if Istanbul to Armenians?
You must be insane if you think you're going to get land that you may or may not have owned in the times of the Ottoman Empire, in case you havent noticed the Empire has not existed for a long time now.
With your logic the Turkish government has claims to all the lands that were once owned by the Ottoman Empire, including Armenia.
Arapo, that would be the Bagratuni family. From what my grandmother told me, we had property and businesses throughout present day Turkey, including banks.
And for “Someone,” yes, we will recover our property at some point. By the U.S. recognizing the Genocide, Turkey will have to also come to terms with it also, since sanctions are a bitch to deal with from the super power of the world. One of the components of committing a Genocide is having to pay out restitution to the victims and the real property taken as a result of the crime must be returned. Genocide has no statue of limitations. When the time is ripe, our family will reclaim what is rightfully ours.
As for Turkey claiming anything, if they can prove there was a Genocide, then of course there is no statue of limitations and they can claim Armenia. Of course we know there was no Genocide against them resulting in land loss, so your statement is nonsense.
All that realy matters is for the Armenian Genocide to be recognized and an official apology from the Turkish government for all the lives lost, not the properties lost.
For some I’m sure recognition is enough. For me recognition is a given, where restitution and the return of properties is our legal entitlement and the punishment needed so it will never happen again to us and others by Turkey, since we know that part of their population is capable of such acts if given the opportunity. We need to send a very strong message to those that think Genocide is okay that it's not and if you do, your economy will take a hard hit.
The reality is that by 1915, Armenians held a very large share of all property in Turkey. We need to take all that back from them to show who the counrty really belongs to and by killing us they can't keep what they stole.
Ara you must be careful not say things like:
"This assassination will bring much needed exposure to the United States, where it looks like the Genocide will finally be recognized by the government"
Was Mr Dink happy to be shot dead in order for the Armenian genocide to be recognized now and not after five years?
How many diaspora political parties or the church really cared about Hirant Dink until international organizations and the international media started to report on him?
I am a Turk and I come with peace, I have been crying for 2 days because I loved Hirant and I thought of him as a Turkish democracy warrior because he was unjustly tried by the ultra-fascists because his words were taken out of context.
I'm extremely sorrowed by his loss, because the 301th law he was tried on takes our freedom of speech. So I'm as sad as you, because I live in Istanbul and I live with these problems everyday. They've caught the killer right now, and he seems to be an ultra-nationalist lowlife scum, but know that in istanbul there are thousands of people protesting and screaming "we are all hirant, we are armenians" . you know it's a hard think to get turks say that, or make them gather in thousands, everybody seems to be sincerely and honestly shocked and horrified by this incident.
however the thing i'm gonna critice is (which harry also meant) he wasn't really a supporter of "genocide" he was a supporter of PEACE and understanding between these two nations.
I know it's Turkey who has to go a step forward because of the constant denial in the past, but the Turkish people are so deeply brainwashed about the issue, most of them think that the whole world is conspiring against them.
I hate these nationalist Turkish scum, but please don't try to make it seem like he was a supporter of the word "genocide" it is not respectful to his life, if you really see his death as a good thing for the Armenian cause, you're not really honoring his life.
you know he had fights with the diaspora and he was even accused of not being an armenian. he was an heimatlos, and he is a victim of OPPRESSIVE NATIONALISM throughout the world, he is a martyr, but not only for the Armenian world, he's a martyr for democracy and free speech!! God bless his soul!
Thank you for your heart filled comment. It gives me hope that people like yourself exist in Turkey and I would hope now those that think and feel like you do will take a stronger stance and make your elected government act according to what you know and feel is right, since what they do in the end, you and your fellow citizens have to answer for.
I am angered and find a great deal of fault in your government for allowing such ultra-nationalist lowlife scum to exist and not educate them or create an environment so they will act in a civil way towards their fellow humans. The trial against Hrant gave the green-light to every ultra-nationalist lowlife scum to kill anyone who "insults Turkey."
It’s clear to me that the Turkish government for many years has intentionally created and bred the ultra-nationalist lowlife scum you mention, since they are easily manipulated to carry out the dirty work the nation needs against the minorities that refuse to convert to Islam and march to a different drum.
From what I understand, Hrant felt in danger and had asked your/his government for protection, which they didn’t provide. This is why he is now no longer with us and also why Turkey is now going to pay dearly. This is also why I now have stronger feelings and resentment towards the Turkish government (which like I said represents the desires of the people who elected them) to reclaim what was taken from my family by the ultra-nationalist lowlife scum, whose decedents are living off my families wealth that was stolen from us.
I would rather that Hrant had not been murdered, but will again say that the only good I see that will come from his murder is that the world and now that I read your comment understand that the common Turkish citizens will also see that Turkey was and is capable of carrying out a Genocide of it’s minorities, as it did against the Armenians in 1895 to 1921 by the likes of the ultra-nationalist lowlife scum Turks that assassinated Hrant.
I hope that this is the beginning of the end of the Turkish government as we know it. They need to be held accountable for Hrant’s death, since they painted him in the public eye to be a traitor to Turkey, which opened hunting season on him, resulting in his death. I would hope that people pick up on this angle and this will be discussed in Washington when they are talking of Genocide recognition, as what happened to Hrant is exactly what happened to the ethnic minorities in Turkey from 1895 to 1921.
thanks for your words. unfortunately the political system in turkey does not really give the individual any chance to speak up, that's why Hirant was killed as well, so whenever you mention something about resolving the feud with Armenia, these fascists label you as traitors almost immediately and most of the common people don't know beyond the official history that's taught in class.
The AKP Government is not nationalist, they're liberal Islamists who want to integrate with EU and although they are conservatives their actions with EU are seen by the military & nationalists as betrayal as well. So the governing party doesn't have a strong hand as well and right now all the opposition parties are becoming more nationalistic to get them off the senate, but I think you mean the past governments or the mentality (which is highly ruled by the ever powerful army) which is true, yes they breed these nationalists while suppressing the lefties (blaming them to be seperatist kurds, like they blamed Hirant to be an Asala terrorist even) these guys really don't know where to stop, I'm really ashamed about all of this, but individually I don't have any power apart from speaking and now I've got to be careful about even that.
"now that I read your comment understand that the common Turkish citizens will also see that Turkey was and is capable of carrying out a Genocide of it’s minorities," well I'm not as optimistic as you 
I don't think It will be easy to make them even think about possibilities, most of the people here know that massacres happened then, but either they feel that there was a war and it had to be done (which is kinda true although it IS surely a systematic massacre which has gone way over the top.) and the Armenians killed many Turks as well. That's because most of them never care to read a history book, and even if they read, they read a Turkish historian like Hacaloglu, who support the official thesis, and Mr. Berktay & co. who are notable history professors who don't support the official thesis are not allowed to speak, and most of the newspapers conspired that they were traitors as well.
I don't know what will happen, even if the whole world agrees that it's a genocide, most of the people here will still think it's a conspiracy against the Turks as they always say the only friend of a Turk is Turk, and stuff like that would get the nationalists even more powerful, which unfortunately would make this country unendurable
wish us luck!
and if you wanna know my ideas about the 1915 issue, calling it genocide would be anachronistic, because there wasn't the term for it, and obviously the concept wasn't there too. it was during the WWI and in that era & especially during the war time, disinformation by Ittihad & Terakki, no possible communication with parts of the country, resulted in a terrible catastrophe like this, but the term genocide, I don't know man frankly, no one living here would want to be labeled as a nation that wanted to kill all Armenians,
In my neighborhood in Istanbul there was many Armenians when I was a child, and now I have many Armenian friends as well. A possible Genocide or Ethnicide is a very harsh term, and the term itself is causing all the problems. I know how you feel about your past, and I'm sorry and the blame is on Turkey for not resolving this problem and issue an apology or give back belongings. but today at this point, the problem is not easily to be resolved because it's based on perceived differences, the same event is believed to be two different things by two different camps. Armenians believe it's a genocide (because of years of talking and reading), and the Turks say it's not possible to be genocide (because of propaganda).
As I said forcing Turkey to agree a genocide is not gonna work as it will make nationalists go even madder. I think the best solution is to get Turkey to open the border to Armenia so both Eastern Turkey and Armenia would benefit. The relations would be neutralized, then Turkey will issue a formal apology on behalf of the Ittihad Terakki regime. Maybe Conferences together talking about the events, exhibitions etc. to form ties between two nations takes place.
However the word "genocide" connotes a much too powerful image, which would shatter the common Turks' understanding of the world and traumatize it that's why even if the US agrees that's a genocide, I think common people here would not agree with it and I think it's not the best way to get a heartfelt apology.
Now got to have a breakfast 
I must say it's extraordinary that thousands of Turks like mersenne have shown sympathy and solidarity. Turkish newspapers like Hurriyet have even used Armenian words in their headlines to show support. Truly extraordinary. I think that diaspora parties should focus on developing good relations with the Turkish public. Genocide recognition will come eventually but having the friendship of Turks is more important than territorial or other compensation. The goodwill of the Turkish public is an essential element in Armenia's security and prosperity
It’s going to be a very difficult pill to swallow for Turkey, as it’s not going to be up to the population of Turkey to decide if it was Genocide, at least not in the international arena.
The fact is as I hope you know, it is more than the Armenians that label what happened between 1895 and 1921 Genocide, but a long list of nations, the next probably being the United States.
These decisions to adopt such resolutions calling what happened a Genocide are not based on emotion or being nationalists, but on facts and evidence collected during and after the crimes.
The people voting on the adoptions of such resolutions are educated people who have been elected by their constituents to represent their desires.
Many of these same governments who recognize what happened to the Armenians as Genocide will also decide if Turkey will be allowed to join the EU.
Again, it’s not up to Turkey to decide if what happened it Genocide or not, it’s up to them to accept what the greater world finds it to be, accept that reality and then move forward.
It also does not matter if the government that committed crime exists or not since present day Turkey still retains the stolen property from the victims and at very least if nothing else, that has to be returned and must be done so future perpetrators think twice before repeating their peoples history.
I’m very sorry to hear that you have a weak and ineffective government that wants to do the right thing but is not able to since the majority of the people choose to live a not so civilized life. When all is said and done, it looks like the extremists are really the ones in control. If they in fact are the majority, then you do have an uphill battle ahead of you. The worst part of this is that citizens of Turkey have to answer for what those 17-year-old uneducated extremists do.
As for opening the boards with Armenia, though that would be a good start, the fact is that until Turkey comes to terms with it’s past and calls what happened during 1895 to 1921 for what it is, there is no security guarantee for Armenia or the other minorities at the hands of the Turkish extremists, since they don’t see massacres as a punishable crime but a terrible catastrophe.
Oh and Harry, why should we make friends with the Turks and then hope that Genocide recognition will come later?
This reminds me of the Dashnag’s and their decision that we were reconciled with Turkey in 1919, as they were naively and secretly cutting deals with them for the return of land, while at that same time, Turkey and the Young Turks led by Tallat Pasha were making other plans to attack Armenia from the East. Of course we know they didn’t realize their plans (the Turks or the Dashnag’s) since my Grandfather knew better, took it on himself, tracked down Tallat and company and had them terminated.
Harry, don’t try to lead us down a road that we don’t know what awaits us. Genocide recognition, settlement of all debts and then at that time we can think about friendship. If you want friendship first and possible recognition later, you can take that road alone.
HRANT IS KILLED, LET ALL LIARS SHUT-UP
Everyone who says that this was an attack on Turkey, everyone who talks about the sinister games played on Turkey, everyone who talks about the timing of this attack coinciding with foreign parliaments’ making decisions on the “alleged” genocide, and thus trying to disguise the fact that Hrant Dink was being tried because he said “genocide” and was receiving threats because of this, and everyone who is protecting the real murderer, that is the ones who are allowing Union and Progress’ covert operator, lyncher, rabid spirit to still live on, has a share of responsibility.
The Justice Minister Hikmet Sami Turk, who yelled from the podiums of the congress that the ones who were organizing the Armenian conference were stabbing the Turkish people in the back, President Ahmet Necdet Sezer who vetoed the law proposal dealing with minority foundations on the grounds that it would strengthen minorities, the district attorneys who turn a blind eye on thousands of cases of torture, convictions without trial, unknown culprits taken into custody and lost, but processed and tried the alleged “notices of guilt” that are devoid of the most elementary notions of universal law, the newspaper Hurriyet that in the days Hrant Dink declared he was going to look for justice in the European Human Rights Courts, made front page news with the head of the Greek foundations who said he wouldn’t go to European Human Rights Courts as he trusted the Turkish Justice system, called him a true citizen, and therefore whomever tried to look for justice in the European H.R. Courts was shown as a target, branded as “so-called/pseudo” citizen, and, before Hrant’s blood was even dry, the Turkish Television stations that for hours debated a litany of provocation by relating it to the law proposal pending in the United States Congress, are all a part of this murder, they have a responsibility.
Everybody who says that this was an attack on Turkey is lying. Because this attack was made possible by Turkey herself therefore, Turkey is responsible. This attack was made possible by the government that has implemented article 301, as protection against only the denigration of Turkishness, not of all identities, thus providing a legal basis for aggression, and it was made possible by an entire population of Turkey who didn’t reject this article.
Everybody who, instead of feeling shame faced with the murder of Hrant Dink, instead of saying “we are all guilty”, worried about Turkey’s dignity, from the officials to the opinion leaders, they are all lying, they are trying to disguise their guilt. Let all the liars shut up.
And you shut up too please, democratic journalists like Altan Oymen. If you are not refusing to answer questions that link the murder of Hrant to the genocide recognition proposal in the US Congress, and do not see a problem replying to them, if you are not refusing to be disrespectful to the pain of the Armenian people by making such connections, if you are not rejecting to thus support the ones who are trying to fool people with conspiracy theories by foreign influences aimed at the Turkish people, just to exonerate our own murderers, shut up, all of you shut up.
LET ALL LIARS SHUT UP. HRANT’S WOUNDS ARE STILL BLEEDING.
(Original source in Turkish)
I am sure all Armenians will be touched by Turkish expressions of sympathy. It was wrong of the Armenian parliament speaker to have talked about Turkey-EU relations after this murder. Mr Dink was a strong supporter of EU membership of Turkey because both Turks and Armenians in Turkey would benefit from such membership. Armenia will probably benefit too.
Ara you said
"Harry, don’t try to lead us down a road that we don’t know what awaits us. Genocide recognition, settlement of all debts and then at that time we can think about friendship. If you want friendship first and possible recognition later, you can take that road alone."
There is every reason to increase contact with the Turkish public without first demanding genocide recognition. It is clear that deep political changes may be under way in Turkey and this will be driven by members of the Turkish public. Diaspora Armenians and foreign governments will be bystanders. If Armenians outside Turkey are seen as opportunistic, the support of moderate Turks could be lost. So far Turkish Armenians have been successfully working with moderate Turks. It is time diaspora parties joined in (assuming they care for the welfare of the Armenian nation - judging by their indifference to the plight of trafficked Armenians, I have my doubts)
Hrant had increased contact with the Turkish people and from the 100,000 people to were there to lay him to rest would say that he had many friends who were Turks. That didn't save him and I don't believe it will bring us any closer to having a stable relationship with Turkey. Remember what mersenne said when you think you can get the common Turk to take things forward: "...unfortunately the political system in turkey does not really give the individual any chance to speak up, that's why Hirant was killed..." and "...whenever you mention something about resolving the feud with Armenia, these fascists label you as traitors almost immediately..."
Mark my word, the Turk is who we know them to be and the common Turk also knows the same Turk we do. For this reason they will never have a chance to speak up to the level that is needed to lay this issue to rest.
Like I said before, you can go make all the Turlish friends you want. I have Turkish friends who already recognize the Genocide which is great, but that will not get the Turkish government to do the same.
The only way to get Turkey to see things the way they really are is to get a legal court to force them to open their eyes and pay out for their past. If that pisses off some "ultra-nationalist lowlife scum" so be it.
"the Turkish people are so deeply brainwashed about the issue, most of them think that the whole world is conspiring against them", because, in their schools they are not taught the truth. Their, Turkish government has kept the truth from them, because they are ashamed of what they did to the Armenians. Talaat intended to exterminate the armenians, so that no armenian would have been left to claim whatever rightfully belonged to the armenians. But, his desire didn't come true. Armenians survived. Armenians are all over the world. I'm a descendent of armenian survivor, who had been left orphan, at 9 years old, along with his sister of 3 years old. They endured all the hardship in life. This was a resurrection of the armenian people. Us, as descendants, we can't forget or forgive the Turkish government, for what they did to our parents or grandparents, unless they accept their wrongdoing and repent, and return us whatever rightfully belong to us.
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