I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
I love it when a plan comes together
Welcome to Vietnam II folks!
Gawd! Not another tunnel in which we'll look for a light at the end of!!!
And it's 1,2,3,4
What are we fighting for
Don't ask me I don't give damn
Next stop is Vietnam
And it's 5,6,7
Open up the pearly gates
Ain't no time to wonder why
Whoopee! We all gonna die.
Vietnam in the Sandbox (VITS) is well underway.
Our guys will chase will'o'wisps and kill civilians. Thbe locals will be antagonized and become the sea in which the resistance swims.
If you really support the troops, then bring our kids home safe, George.
USA! USA!
The password is "quagmire"...
Support the Troops - Impeach Bush Now!
sad, sad, sad.
Please excuse me, those body count quotes leave me spooked in queesy kind of way.
Since when was killing humans something to report like the temperature?
Death on demand. All on the ten o'clock news!
I'm glad I don't have to explain this to my five year old right now. Seriously glad.
What I would like to know is what happened to all those people who were out protesting before the war? Those same people need to get back on the streets and start demanding some straight answers.
Tell me when and where the march starts, and I'll be there.
Ridnik,
You mean the people who were beaten and shot in san fran and pummeled and sprayed in new york.
Maybe somebody should take a close look at those mass graves in Iraq!
whoever - thanks for the flashback! I thought I was the only one who remembers Country Joe and the Fish.
This is sickening. Can you say Apocalypse Yesterday? Damn the chickenhawks.
Folks, this is gonna be WAY worse than Vietnam, for a number of reasons.
First, the Vietnamese didn't have religious brethren from other countries ready and willing to come join them in expelling the infidel.
Second, the Vietnamese didn't have religious brethren with well-organized terrorist networks ready, willing, and able to bring the pain home here to the USA.
Third, Vietnam didn't have a natural resource that we coveted, so the exit strategy was only about saving face. Not the case in Iraq.
If BushCo tries to carry this crusade into Iran, get ready for WWIII. China, Russia, and others cannot allow the US to control most of the world's petroleum reserves militarily, and they will fight to stop it from happening.
Hadenough: I was one of those marching in New York, though I was neither pummeled nor sprayed.
And as for those mass graves, I'm hearing that they mostly contain the bodies of those Shi'ites who rose up against Saddam in 1991 and were sold out by the first George Bush.
Jennifer - Oh, I absolutely agree with everything you said. I've been expecting WWIII ever since Bush's first speech after 9/11. It is shaping up just about how I thought it would, and it is one huge terrifying inexcusable mess.
And what happens with this one here in this country will make the Japanese internment camps of WWII look like day spas.
First, the Vietnamese didn't have religious brethren from other countries ready and willing to come join them in expelling the infidel.
In a manner of speaking they did. They had help from both the Russians and the Chinese.
I don't think that this will approach Vietnam. The Soviet Union isn't clandestinely aiding Iraq. But I can see this turning into something nearly as bad as the Israeli occupation--the Intifada. Proobably not as intense, but intense enough. And that morass has been going on, in one form or another, for nearly 40 years.
"Since when was killing humans something to report like the temperature."
paradox...
You've got to be kidding right? Please read up on the Vietnam war. What's happening now is nothing new. I'll have more in a minute...
Jennifer great points, but I'd only make a few additions...
Ridick's right. You could say that the Russian and Chinese were a sort of "religious" base. But religion did, in fact play a part. The Buddhists were very important in the early resistance to the US puppet Diem...
Second, you could also say that the rubber of southeast asia was an important resource, but certainly not as much as oil...
But I love your thinking about it. It's easy to sometimes make the comparison, but we must be very careful not to stretch it too far. There are fundamental differences, especially in the way elite opinion views the US invasion...
Here's an example...
I'm sorry. I meant, "There are fundamental difference, but there are great similarities as well, especially in the way elite opinion views the invasion."
For instance, here's how CNN reported the "incident":
"[US troops] may have commited a serious blunder." Ben Wedeman, CNN 6/14/03.
Note the use of terms like "blunder." This is precisely how coverage of US atrocities in Vietnam were reported. US troops committed "mistakes", "blunders", "miscalculations", and so on. The same for commanders and administration officials. And it remains the same today in the written history of the Vietnam war, especially among elites. As the atocities continued to mount, the horror of the crimes couldn't be denied, and terms like "massacre" were finally used to describe them. But there have yet to be any sort of war crimes trials.
THis represents a fundamental tenet of US propaganda. The US does not commit war crimes. It is incapable of doing so. THe idea doesn't even exist within mainstream thought to be debated or even laughed at...
...and we can see it again unfolding before our very eyes. So please pay close attention to the terminology used as US war crimes begin to escalate. It will be interesting to see how the coverage proceeds...
...I hope I'm wrong.
Well, it's bound to be similar to Vietnam because it's the U.S. MO - even in countries we don't "invade" outright, like Chile, we install corrupt regimes in countries and then spend forever trying to prop them up against the people they are supposed to govern, who don't want them. It's so arrogant that there are hardly words for it. The Cabal that put this whole thing together never once questioned that the Iraqi people might not want what the Cabal decided they should want.
Elias - the principal US propaganda is and always has been that the US doesn't engage in propaganda. So, how can the US be guilty of anything - the truth is always told.
Yes Tena, you're right about the propaganda catch22, if you will...I've got so much to say about it but not the time, hopefully Monday. This looks like a great post we can keep going for a while...
Elias - time differences are so weird. I don't know where you are, but it's only 2:15 here, and all the comments are on EDT, which is a 3 hour difference. Have a good weekend.
Tena, one quick thing about the Vietnam comparison - a very problematic but one at that. The Iraq war will never match the scale of Vietnam, let's hope. Just because there aren't the numbers. The population of Iraq is much smaller, the US presence too. I mean, the number of US KIA's in Vietnam sometimes reached 500 a week - that's IN ONE WEEK!!! Can you imagine?
CIA estimates were millions of casualties. I mean, we've got to be careful about this comparison. There are some areas to explore, but we've got to be very careful. I'm more interested in the way the political and media elites describe what's happening. I think that's where the real comparison is...
you too...much to add later...
Elias - looking forward to the rest of your thoughts.
dave - I'm pretty sure you spell it with a W....
Ridnik Chrome,
Sorry you missed that part:
PBS - GLOBAL PROTEST
BETTY ANN BOWSER: The crowd of protestors stretched north for over a mile up First Avenue. Thousands of other demonstrators couldn't hear or see anything. Police held them back on adjacent avenues, where they were jammed shoulder to shoulder for blocks.
WOMAN ON STREET: A few people wanted to go though the barricades, because we've been here all day wanting to hear the speeches, and finally the horses... the guys on the horses pushed back, and all of a sudden, like, they started hitting people. At least three people were hit really badly.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/i...3/
protests.html
Hundreds arrested in NYC protest
NEW YORK (AP) -- More than 100 people were arrested during a massive demonstration against possible war in Iraq as tens of thousands of protesters packed a 20-block area north of United Nations headquarters, New York police said Sunday.
Lawyers for some demonstrators at Saturday's protest put the number of arrests, mostly for disorderly conduct, at closer to 200 to 300.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/02/16...protests.ny.ap/
THE WORLD RISES UP AGAINST WAR:
In New York City, the people defied police refusal to grant a march permit by turning the upper east side broad boulevards into a sea of humanity. Hundreds of thousands filled First Avenue, Second Avenue and Third Avenue. On First Avenue the rally stretched from 52nd St. past 80th St. Second and Third Avenues, and even over to Lexington Avenue, were clogged with demonstrators who were prevented by police barricades and checkpoints from reaching the main assembly site. The police also used horses, clubs and pepper spray to carry out assaults against peaceful protesters. The National Lawyers Guild reports that over 320 people have been arrested, and that many are being held in tight handcuffs without access to water, food or bathroom facilities.
http://
www.internationalanswer.o...1503f15rpt.html
There is lots more but that's enough
curled in fetal position again.
i said it would be bad. but not this BAD. somebody please make aWol stop.
It's too late to stop it.
If we just pull all the troops out, the place will collapse on itself just like Afghanistan. We can't simply throw money at it either.
But the mere presence of foreign troops will make this sort of thing keep happening. We're stuck there for the foreseeable future.
Interresting facts:
VITS in swedish means joke!
And this is a bad one.
To avoid this mess to happen again I would like to propose a new draft law:
All male and female americans between the age of 18-25 with parents that make more than 300.000$, shall be drafted to combat units, for a minimum period of two years.(physical or mental disabilities being the only excuses).
The rest of the armed forces will ofcourse still be volunteers.
This should make some people think twice before they start a war again.
seraphiel has nailed it. there is no good way out. g. weaselboy has screwed us good.
qWagmire, Jennifer?
OOH, qwagmire. i LIKE it.
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