I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
It's 'cause you hate Jews, you worthless gash.
Trash - reverting to form, I see, in repeating your slurs against the female genitalia which fills you with such revulsion. What's wrong, can't come up with another term for the vaginas you so fear and loathe?
If you're talking about hate, you're in the wrong place.
I think most Americans believe that all Israelis are idealistic left wing types. The country has a right and a left. Sharon is definitely a hard right winger like Reagan and Bush Jr. It is a pity that most Americans don't know more about other countries. Such lack of knowledge doesn't make anyone a "hater" - they are merely ignorant.
"Lezst we forget" the Iraqi antiquities myth:
MARK STEYN:
The one guy to get the Iraqi Museum story right from the get-go turns out to be not a professional journalist, but our old friend, the philistine warmonger Donald Rumsfeld. Rummy observed at the time that the networks kept showing "the same picture of some person walking out of some building with a vase". But it was the same vase "over and over and over". The same vase, 170,000 times. Rummy was right.
You want a heritage catastrophe? At the very moment the Baghdad Museum was being non-sacked, workers at the University of Toronto threw out 280 boxes of colonial and Indian artefacts dating back to the 15th century. What's left of them is now deep in a landfill in Michigan. I'm a Torontonian, so that's my heritage in there. Any takers? I thought not. Harder to pin on Bush and Blair.
Interestingly, Toronto is not only more culturally desecrated than Iraq; it's also more diseased. There have been 238 cases of Sars in Toronto, with 32 deaths. There have been 66 cases of cholera in Basra, with three deaths. Basra public health officials, assuming there are any, are doing a much better job of controlling cholera than Toronto public health officials are of controlling Sars.
The Ontario health guys, who sound more like a gung-ho Chamber of Commerce, keep announcing they've got Sars licked and then it goes and infects a big bunch of new hospital patients. And meanwhile the Canadian media keep raving about what a great job the Toronto healthcare folks are doing, and then return to ululating about the massive humanitarian catastrophe about to engulf Iraq.
Every naiton has a mix of opinions. Every nation has a range. Read Ha'retz (spelling?) from time to time. They seem to take a pretty liberal tack on the circle of violence in Israel.
It is a circle. Maybe someday they will tire of playing ping-pong with live grenades - and decide to actually work together - but with Sharon and Bush in control of their respective countries, it will not happen.
I do not trust Sharon any more than I trust Bush. Both are elitist weasles. Neither care about solving the issue. Both think they can win by eradicating the threat - but niether understands that the more you work to eradicate, the greater the threat grows.
People were fools to think that Bush could usher in an era of peace in Israel.
Most Americans have no idea of the range of opinion in Israel.
Because Israel is a democracy (complete with Arabs in the Knesset), unlike "Palestine", which is an unelected dictatorship run by the vile, corrupt billionaire terrorist Yasser Arafat.
Thanks Water CLoset. Nice post - it really helps us understand your point of view toward Israel.
Good, thoughtful post. Sharon fought in the 1948 war? I didn't know that. It's the first thing I've heard about him that I can respect, and it makes him pretty old.
Good comment by Jennifer too.
Brash can be no other than that unsupervised 10 year old who figured out how to get by the parental controls on the family computer. He was posting the same kind of boring shit the other night. His problem, besides the one he has with torturing small animals and insects methodically, is that is isn't popular, and the girls he has crushes on make fun of him. I recognize the tone of his comments because they sound just like the anonymous phone calls I used to get from boys like him when I was 12 or so.
But at least he has an excuse. WC doesn't
Remember Yitzhak Rabin and Yasser Arafat shaking hands in the embrace of Bill Clinton?
Kinda different now. The "conservatives" are in power.
A right-wing religous fanatic kills Rabin. Right-wing war criminal Sharon provokes Palestinians with a pre-announced visit to the Temple Mount. Right-wing war criminal Sharon gets elected amongst the following predictable violence. On a "security" platform.
Right-wing war criminal Sharon attacks the civilian Palestinian population, targeting water supplies and police stations. The ensuing anarchy favors right-wing Palestinians and creates a buyers market for suicide bombers.
Palestinians attack Isrealis, Isrealis retaliate, repeat.
Sharon benefits. Congrats, AS. 1000s of dead people don't complain, can't vote.
The ensuing anarchy favors right-wing Palestinians and creates a buyers market for suicide bombers.
Palestinians attack Isrealis, Isrealis retaliate, repeat.
Palestianian suicide bonmbers are "right wing"? Interesting.
Hamas has proudly pronounced to the world that they will NEVER negotiate with Israel, that their entire purpose is to wipe Israel off the face of the map. You are Ariel Sharon: how do you deal with that?
Because Israel is a democracy (complete with Arabs in the Knesset), unlike "Palestine", which is an unelected dictatorship run by the vile, corrupt billionaire terrorist Yasser Arafat.
hay walt:
little green imbecils (footballs) is calling ... they want their meme back ...
seriously though, walter cronkite, please tell me where you live so i can come bulldoze your house and build a place for my buddies.
Hanna Ashrawi was making exactly the same criticisms of Sharon within an hour of the latest suicide bombing on BBC. She laid in on him for attempting an assassination - especially one so brazen against so open and public a Hamas figure - just as the PA was about to complete an armistice with Hamas. She pretty much came right out and sais Sharon did it because he knew it would result in an attack against Israelis that would justify breaking off further progress.
Just a note: the blog littlegreenfootballs.com is having trouble with outsiders raising their voices in opposition to the site's ideology.
Folks over there want to eradicate Islam entirely and misrepresent the religion in the vilest ways.
Their moderator is a fink who blocks ISPs and removes messages, but he is being driven crazy by those who disagree with the spew of hate at his site.
Have at 'em and let them know that their kind of violent crap is not worth protecting.
i like to think i'm fairly aware, but i didn't realise there was much opposition to sharon's policies in israel until recently.
if i remember correctly, before his election, palestinians were marching in the streets and saying (to paraphrase, cause i've slept since then) that if sharon was elected, the cycle of violence would be stepped up. from what i understand, it was a reaction to what happened in sabra and shatila, but i haven't researched it much further.
it seems to me (from observations of what's happened since he's been in power) that sharon is the kind of person unwilling to break the cycle of violence that permeates the middle east.
is there really hope for those people right now? how much confidence does any one of us have in our own leadership to try and break the cycle of violence, when it seems that is all they know at this point? the idealist in me really hopes so, but the cynic is doubtful.
realistically, if it were up to you, what would you do? because i haven't the faintest idea...
"Palestinians attack Isrealis, Isrealis retaliate, repeat."
Thats it right there, the repeat part is the sickest part.
Obsessive compulsive behaviour.
er, let me clarify. second paragraph, last sentence should have read: from what i understand, it was a reaction to sharon's rols in sabra and shatila.
please tell me where you live so i can come bulldoze your house
Why would you bulldoze my house? I didn't blow your children to bits.
not tied to ME at all, so all i can say is i hate what Sharon is and is doing in the name of 'security'. acting like Bushit on steroids(rummy wishing he could take out librals the same way) almost makes me wish Netenfuckyou was still in charge.
Hamas has proudly pronounced to the world that they will NEVER negotiate with Israel, that their entire purpose is to wipe Israel off the face of the map. You are Ariel Sharon: how do you deal with that?
Sharon's actions, which are way louder than his words, have proudly announced that he isn't interested in peace with the Palestinians, that his entire purpose is to continue and to even escalate the violence by any means he can (invasion, nonspecific bombings, more and more settlements, unrealistic boundries, unrealistic expectations from the Palestinian Authority, apartheid conditions for millions of Ay-rabs). You are a palestinian treated like shit and kicked out of your home: how do you deal with that?
Why the sudden uptick in trolling in otherwise rational discussions? Could the bottom feeders have an inkling that things might not always go their way in the future?
Sharon's problem is a common one with hardliners and the insane. They keep hitting their head on the same wall over and over.
just as the PA was about to complete an armistice with Hamas.
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH!! An armistice with Hamas! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHH!!!
realistically, if it were up to you, what would you do? because i haven't the faintest idea...
Killing every member of Hamas is a good start, before they kill me.
Why would you bulldoze my house? I didn't blow your children to bits.
Israel has never been selective about who it displaces when invading/building settlements ... why should I?
northsylvania - I've noticed the uptick, too - or an increase in ticks, as the case may be.
unrealistic expectations from the Palestinian Authority
"Unrealistic"? Um, such as stopping the deliberate, indiscriminate murder of Israeli women and children?
apartheid conditions for millions of Ay-rabs).
What a crock of shit and a spit in the face to Nelson Mandela at the same time.
You are a palestinian treated like shit and kicked out of your home: how do you deal with that?
Well, I would not deliberately murder Jewish women and children...just as the many peoples who have suffered in history FAR worse than the Palestinians have NEVER resorted to such barbarism.
Why is that, by the way? Why are the Palestinians the only group ever to have reacted to their supposed victimhood with such extreme, barbaric assaults on civilian populations?
Watch out - when the MBFs get all warm and fuzzy about some poor mistreated populace like the Israelis (like they did about the poor Iraqis) it usually means that populace is doomed.
Well, I would not deliberately murder Jewish women and children...just as the many peoples who have suffered in history FAR worse than the Palestinians have NEVER resorted to such barbarism.
like the Jews ... 6 million killed and you use it to justify any and all actions against Palestinian civilians like taking their land and homes and continuing their humiliating living conditions. what good is a holocaust museum when israel is perpetuating its own?
Why is that, by the way? Why are the Palestinians the only group ever to have reacted to their supposed victimhood with such extreme, barbaric assaults on civilian populations?
the "supposed" in your sentence marks your position out pretty well ... it's the equivalent of me being a holocaust denier, something no one would or should stand for ... but for you to say "supposed": you are no better than a nazi.
as for others who have been oppressed: Israel's hardline tactics ARE "extreme, barbaric assaults on civilian populations."
Look, it's clearly somewhat difficult to argue with you over this server. I'm new here and I don't know if you are genuine yet or just some right-winger troll, but the last couple of comments have pretty much pegged you as a nazi-equivalent (zionazi?) ideologue. keeping that in mind, i'm not going to argue about whether or not jews stole palestinian land or whether arabs forced jews into this position 50 years ago with their actions. In fact, I happen to agree that Israel needs to exist, and that Jews need a homeland. I will also say that the US, the UK, the Jews and the Arabs are ALL to blame as they handled the situation atrociously, and still do so.
But in this present day, we have Arab terrorists and we have Israel perpetuating its state-sponsored terrorism, which has a MUCH higher civilian death toll than all the suicide bombers Hamas has ever had combined. I am trying to talk about our situation TODAY, and your views aren't helping anyone achieve peace.
Yes, Israelis have an incredibly wide range of opinions; I'm an (ex-) Israeli and I hate Sharon.Israeli paper Ha'aretz is far more 'anti-israel', in the sense of being against Likud violence, than any paper in North America. There's no question that both Sharon and Hamas increase the violence as soon as it looks like there will be anything approaching peace.
That said, in this particular case Sharon was responding to Hamas categorically refusing to sign a ceasefire agreement with Palestinian PM Abu Mazen. Also, four Israeli soldiers were killed and all three major palestinian terrorist organizations took credit, signalling that Palestinians weren't too gung-ho about the whole roadmap to peace. The guardian article mentions none of this. As for Dr. Rantisi himself, it's really a shame he was only injured.
None of this, of course, justifies dropping large bombs on densely populated neigborhoods in order to get one bad guy.
The really scary thing, rumored in the NYTimes, is that Likud is going after Hamas spritual leader Sheik Ahmed Yassin, the Jerry Falwell of the Palestinian movement (but even more evil). If this happens, expect the entire world to go completely fucking insane...
anna,
Sharon has many opponents but he was re-elected overwhelmingly by the Israeli voters in spite of everything. I continue to follow the news but I'm not at all optimistic. I was somehow hoping that at this point in his life he might want to trade the image of war criminal with that of elder statesman. Now I realize it was only wishful thinking on my part.
Some in Israel and the USA believe the Palestinians should be evicted and resettled somewhere else. If only the Zionists had the temerity to do this, the situation would quickly reach a crisis stage where either we cut off aid to Israel and the UN imposes economic sanctions or a terrible calamity will bring the world economy to its knees. Faced with this prospect, most people would rather look the other way and allow the atrocities to continue for another 100 years.
The Other Anonymous - You did a wonderful job of refuting Joe Tiernan, AKA "Walter Cronkite." He is a troll and a moronic brownshirt fuck. Genuine only in his genuine despicableness. He drops by and tries to light up the conversation with straw men and argumentative comments. You may feed the troll if you wish - it's up to you.
You may feed the troll if you wish - it's up to you.
No, now that I know for certain, I'll stop the feeding.
Gabriel - I have a hard time believing that the US will ever cut off funding to Israel, regardless. I'd like to hope that there is something to look forward to other than a calamity or more of the same - eye for eye endlessly. But when this country has an administration that doesn't believe in compromise for iteself, it doesn't seem possible that Sharon or anyone else would accept compromise at this administration's demand.
John Isbell-- not only did Sharon fight in the 1948 War, there's a persistent rumor he was briefly a POW. (Nasser, incidentally, was an Egyptian POW in Israeli hands for months.)
'Tis a shame that Pelosi and the Demo's had to criticize Bush for chastizing the Israeli assasination attempts. They certainly deserved the chastizing, given the number and ages of the civilians killed as a consequence.
The only way to get Hamas to stop when Sharon is in power (he instigated the current intifada personally by touring the Islamic holy sites with entourage after being warned by his own people that Sabra and his housing ministry actions were still sore spots) is to substantially increase the efficacy of the Palestinian Security services, which have been repeatedly crushed by Israeli military intervention.
Without an effective security agency, Israeli and US complaints about Palestine's inability to control its militant right-wing religious fanatics are almost sickeningly ironic. Without a staffed, well armed police force there can be no internal crackdown on Palesinian militants, and since external intervention only worsens the problem, internal intervention is the only sane solution.
Abbas needs money and weapons now, and while this will only reinforce right-wing (religious fanatics, ie most settlers) Israeli paranoia, it will be the only way to salvage a long-term solution.
atipamezole - that is some of the most well-reasoned comment I've read on this subject. It seems to me that extremists are holding the reigns in this conflict, just as extremists have gotten the upper hand in our own government. Nothing can be accomplished through extremism.
Lets see, occupy a land for over 50 years and wonder WHY the occupied attacks you? Who are the bad guys here?
Of course the blood is on Sharon's hands. And it's remarkable that Israelis (and Americans) so infrequently confront this, because history is full of incidents where it's obvious. Sharon has well established his MO... make grand gestures for peace to the world, then provoke violence with covert or not so convert attacks on Palestinians and blame them for sabatoging some peace process or another. It has happened over and over, and it's so transparent if you follow Israeli media closely it's a miracle they get away with it.
In reality there is an active and vocal Left in Israel that points this out (They "hate" their country some say). I'm very glad to see at least a few scattered voices pointing it out this time. I feel there has been a slight, and welcome, shift and for once Israel is at least partly being recognized for the instigator they are. Palenstian deaths outnumber Israeli deaths several fold, the first attacks after long periods of peace are always from the IDF and Israel kills with the world's most advanced weapons (bought from the US) while Palestinians throw rocks and fire hand made weapons.
And please don't call me an anti-Semite. I'm Jewish. That anti-Semite knee-jerk label is as tired and without meaning or substance as are "Anti-American" labels hurled from the Right here. I'm not anti-Jewish, I'm anti-Genocide and anti-Violence. It's time we all, Jewish or not, begin calling this what it is.... Ethnic Cleansing of Palestinians. The "RoadMap" is a sham, a one way road to starvation, misery and death for Palestinians.
And one more thing... why is it that Israel has an open policy of assasination of unconvicted people and if they get called out at all it's only for the "collateral damage". It is WRONG to target and assasinate members of opposing political groups. Israel does it on a routine basis and it's just normal policy. Sometimes the Authority hands people over to them for asasination and still Israel whines about "not doing enough to combat..." With the PA turning their own people over to Sharon in a ne ver ending attempt to pacify him and the rest of the world barely noticing when they pick up people on busy street corners, we are ALL to blame for this.
Joe B. - Wow.
Something that also doesn't get mentioned particularly often is the full definition of a "Semite".
"A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians."
So by condoning the killing of Arabs, the state of Israel is by definition, Anti-semitic =)
atipamelzole - Thanks for that. That's something I've often thought about. This is such a painful conflict that I often find it difficult to say anything about it. I supported Israel's right to exist for a long time - I'm not jewish, but the kind of anti-semitism that jews have endured for so long made it difficult for me to say anything against Israel. Until they started killing so many children and unarmed people and it has just escalated to the point that I can't believe a people with that history can have forgotten so much. What they are doing is not right. And no amount of argument that the Palestinians are wrong because of the suicide bombings can make what Israel is doing right.
Joe B.
>It is WRONG to target and assasinate members of opposing political groups.
So if America assassinates Bin Laden, that would be wrong because he is a member of a political group (al-qaeda), but it would be OK if he was unaffiliated? Personally, I believe that killing those who have killed in large numbers is not a bad idea. Though it is not always the wisest course of action, and certainly was not in this case...
As for the 'ethnic cleansing' charge, 2,000 palestinians have died over the course of 2.5 years. during the same time, 1,000 Israelis have died. This is a fucking tragedy, but it isn't genocide. What's happening in the Congo is genocide. Jordan once killed 20,000 palestinians in a month. That is pretty damn close to genocide. If Sharon actually wanted to kill every Arab in the West Bank, (which he could theoretically do) that palestian death toll above would have a few zeroes attached.
Good post otherwise.
SYM - Sharon's personal desires in relation to the Palestinian peoples are somewhat less relevant than one would think as one of the few actions that would result in a substantial loss of funding to Israel (by the USA) would be wholesale slaughter of Palestinians.
This is not an inconsequential amount of money - $3billion in direct monetary aid/year, at the beginning of the year (everyone else is at the end of the year and so doesnt benefit from interest, and no one gets nearly that much) plus at least 0.25billion from the USA DoD budget.
Therefore, regardless of what Sharon feels is the best course of action ("push them into the sea!", as several of his political allies and fellow party-members have cried), his hands are tied by his remaining sanity and his strong political drive.
Sharon is definitely a politician and definitely right-wing. Sharon resigned from the MoD because he would have been canned by the Kahan commission for aiding and abetting the Phalangists in Sabra and Shatilla massacres.
Therefore, discussion of what Sharon's personal desires for the inhabitants of the West Bank is going to be limited to what he can get away with and still maintain power.
In that he is not so much unlike Arafat as he and his supporters would like to think.
Israel needs to give up the settlements. The Palestinians need to give up the right of return. Unfortunately, these conpromises would cause civil war within the respective camps.
I think the concept of killing civillians to achieve a political goal is wrong. It always has been. It was wrong when we bombed Dresden. It was wrong when we firebomed Tokyo. It was wrong when we nuked Hiroshima and Nagisaki. And it's wrong now, when an Hamas bomber blows himself up in a market.
I have to wonder, however, if those Americans who justify our intentional killing of thousands of civillians in WWII would cheer the actions of suicide bombers attacking the civillian population of a foreign power who denied us self determination.
You could be right, atipamezole. After posting that, I remebered a quote from a chilling Sharon interview from '84, in response to being called a Nazi by the media: Better a live Nazi than a dead martyr.
At the time, he apparently believed in pre-emptive genocide. Nice guy, eh?
On the other hand, he has recently been making noise about how Israel cannot rule over 3.5 mil palestians. Which is the real Ariel Sharon?
I report. you decide.
That tiny optimistic sliver left in my heart would like to believe in the new one.
As for him being like Arafat, they are two peas in a pod. If there is a god, Yasser and Arik would be getting raped by Slobo in a European jail right about now.
Lovely image, isn't it?
Also, I am more skeptic than you that Sharon could do anything to lose that (#@&*#) US funding. Transfer might do it. Might.
Patriotboy:
>I have to wonder, however, if those Americans who justify our intentional killing of thousands of civillians in WWII would cheer the actions of suicide bombers attacking the civillian population of a foreign power who denied us self determination.
Yes, they probably would. But all that proves is that nationalism (and patriotism, no offense) turns people into idiots.
atipamezole and joe b - excellent posts. thank you.
It appears a crack in the wall is appearing, and it is growing larger.
SYM - Excellent points indeed.
Sharon's 'tough talk' on the settlements so far has seemed only so much hot air to me because of the constraints put on which ones in particular will be removed.
Couched in his harshest language about the settlements is a safety-valve: the "illegal settlements" from the POV of the Israeli state are not the same as what everyone else in the world calls "illegal settlements" (ie just about all of them, minus Golan)....
"If there is a god, Yasser and Arik would be getting raped by Slobo in a European jail right about now."
That's a pretty definitive proof of the non-existance of a benevolent God 
The real work to be done, by us in this country, is toward influencing our cowardly and politically prostituted senators and representatives, who have only a reflexive response in favor of Israel, as if there were not real issues on both sides with bona fides. Its hard to have sympathy for the growing irrelevance of the legislative branch when they act like such a bunch of predictible puppets.
Patriotboy - I couldn't agree with someone more than I do with you when you say that killing civilians to achieve a political goal is wrong. Whether it occurs during a declared war or not, it is wrong. Noone in this conflict or any other has clean hands in that respect, certainly not the US, considering the numbers of civilians our armed forces have killed, even since WWII. Inasmuch as that is the way wars are fought, the awful logic of it says that it makes as much sense for suicide bombers to blow up innocent civilians as it does for military tanks to mow them down. It's all wrong.
I can't believe a people with that history can have forgotten so much.
Unfortunately, that's a pretty common human response to abuse: imitate the abuser. Also the situation itself breeds brutality, both because of the persistant fear of living with an ongoing terrorist threat -- remembering that in Israel, an increased terrorist threat doesn't mean that the color coding changes, it means you're that much more likely to get blown up while riding a bus, sitting in a restaurant or walking home -- and because of the role that occupation imposes. It's difficult to control a hostile population without brutality, leading the occupiers to stifle their own natural aversion to brutality.
I think in the US (and probably Europe as well) many people interpret the conflict symbolically, according to their own fears or prejudices. To many conservatives, the Palestinians look like communists, anarchists, hippies, immigrants or any other dangerous subversives bent on destroying society. To many liberals, Israelis looks like fascists, Skull & Crossbones types, or other dangerous powers bent on destroying society. Thus they see the conflict as a fight against pure evil which justifies in their minds any level of violence by the 'good guys'.
Of course neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians are pure evil. But each group also has very legitimate reasons to fear and mistrust the other, and are reluctant to do anything that could make them more vulnerable. The Israelis say, "If we withdraw from the territories, the terrorists will become more powerful." The Palestinians say, "If we abandon our 'militant groups', the Israelis will have no reason to ever leave." Both arguments have some justification, but the result is an endless game of 'you first' that bogs down every peace initiative.
Ironic, isn't it? The Old Testament says, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself", while the Islam's Hadith says, "No one is a believer until he loves for his neighbor, and for his brother, what he loves for himself," yet these 'neighbors' appear locked in an endless cycle of violence and hate.
Beth - this liberal doesn't see the Israelis as fascists. I hope you didn't get that from my comments. I see wrong on all sides of the conflict. And it just seems to breed more wrong. That's one reason I said earlier that I find it hard to comment on it.
This conflict is really starting to frustrate me. I believe the so-called "road map" is a good start in the right direction, even if it is flawed and naive in assuming that a Palestinian state can be accomplished in two years. But it's only a start, and needs to be flexible.
However, even if it were the best plan ever, recent events have made it immensely difficult to implement. Hamas terrorist attacks and Arafat's statement that the Aqaba convention was illegitimate have made the need for strong action necessary. That action, of course, is for Abbas to arrest the top Hamas and Al Asqr Brigade leaders. He has to destroy these terrorist organizations. Instead of his credibility going to the crapper, Arafat's needs to be going down. Unfortunately, dumbass Europeans still insist on treating Arafat as a legitimate leader, while Bush (and this is one of the few times I agree with him) doesn't. Israel has conceded, albeit grudgingly and somewhat halfway, but they're making an effort.
I also agree with them taking out those leader of Hamas if Abbas doesn't have the [i]cojones[/i] to do so. However, I take issue with their methods. Excuse me. METHOD. Shooting at cars on crowded streets with rockets launched from helicopters?! Come on, isn't there a better way? The collateral damage from these strikes was quite preventable, and this only serves to fuel the flames some more.
Until hardliners on both side are marginalized or destroyed, the road map will not proceed. It will be another in a long line of failures. Reasonable Israelis and Palestinians must ask themselves, "Is it worth our while to see this through? Isn't some compromise worth peace?" Only they have the answer. It's up to them to have the willpower to answer positively.
this liberal doesn't see the Israelis as fascists. I hope you didn't get that from my comments.
Absolutely not. I was thinking more of the LGF-type conservatives and their liberal counterparts, people who aren't even willing to admit there is more than one side to an issue. I've read your comments on this thread and others, and it's obvious you're not that type.
Some of Israel's actions have been reprehensible and should be condemned. The fact that you spoke on it doesn't make you my enemy. I'm for peace and I think you are too. That puts us on the same side.
That action, of course, is for Abbas to arrest the top Hamas and Al Asqr Brigade leaders. He has to destroy these terrorist organizations.
How? The Israelis destroyed the PA's security service.
Wow, it's amazing the stuff that's said here. Truly amazing. And it's not the first time I've heard it from ignorant Lefties.
"And please don't call me an anti-Semite. I'm Jewish. That anti-Semite knee-jerk label is as tired and without meaning or substance as are "Anti-American" labels hurled from the Right here. I'm not anti-Jewish, I'm anti-Genocide and anti-Violence. It's time we all, Jewish or not, begin calling this what it is.... Ethnic Cleansing of Palestinians. The "RoadMap" is a sham, a one way road to starvation, misery and death for Palestinians. "
This kind of nonsense is truly deplorable. If you are going to assert that the Israelis are commiting ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, then they are doing a VERY piss poor job of it as the Palestinian population has merely INCREASED a great number since the conflict began. But don't let your own blind ignorance stop you from rehashing what Noam Chomsky tells you.
Israel has only been "occupying" Palestinian territories since the 6 Day War, a war that was brought against Israel by surrounding Arab states. So if you're going to go by the "To the victors go the spoils" mantra, technically the Israelis owe nothing.
But in any case, I believe that the land should be returned to the Palestinians. But it should be clear to any level headed person that the Israelis are not to blame here for the current conflict but groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad. As the roadmap to peace talks were under way, Hamas said it wanted no peace with Israel, it wanted to kill every single Israeli in the entire state and not just the territories, it wanted Israel wiped off the map, and then it proceeded to kill 4 Israeli military officers. Israel followed by trying to assasinate Rantisi, a Hamas leader.
So tell me again, how the Israelis are supposed to negotiate with groups like Hamas when said groups are hellbent on committing a REAL genocide. Sorry terror apologists, but Israel is not going to broker a "half genocide" or a "quarter genocide", it has every right to defend itself.
As for the argument that Israel should provide money for the creation of a stronger Palestinian police force: Already Been Done. In the Oslo Accords, Israel did just that and Arafat made little to no effort to crack down on militants. In fact, once the Second Intifada began, he RELEASED militants.
Israel is gradually releasing Palestinian radicals from its jails and slowly relinquishing territory back to the Palestinians. Wanna bet that Hamas sends another suicide bomber onto an bus with Israeli women and children as this happens? I would. Hamas and Islamic Jihad's version of peace is the non-existence of Israel and they have made this point very clear through their words and their actions. This conflict has very little to do with the occupied territories and much to do with the existence of Israel.
"Right-wing war criminal Sharon attacks the civilian Palestinian population, targeting water supplies and police stations. The ensuing anarchy favors right-wing Palestinians and creates a buyers market for suicide bombers."
Umm...the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, Arafat's terrorist henchmen, are based on a secular Marxist movement.
Those damned "right-wing" extremists...
www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog
Before you label it a "hate site" as most ignorant liberals tend to do after they read it once and never visit again, note that Charles, the moderator does not add a disclaimer everytime saying he is only referring to his dislike of RADICAL Islam and not all Islam.
Frankly, he shouldn't need to, but I guess it's easier for many liberals to just label him a racist than to actually read what Charles is writing.
And he doesn't even attempt to be PC.
Good for him. Let the truth be told.
Before you label it a "hate site" as most ignorant liberals tend to do after they read it once and never visit again, note that Charles, the moderator does not add a disclaimer everytime saying he is only referring to his dislike of RADICAL Islam and not all Islam.
My biggest problems with Charles center around his absolute 100% unwillingness to debate with ANYONE who has a differing opinion on his site, even those arguing in good faith. He bullies (releases IP addresses), harasses (releases work addresses), and encourages threats (physical threats to specific people at specific locations due to his leaks). This makes him no better than any of several white-supremacist or equivalent sites. I accept that it's his site and he can do whatever the hell he wants, but that dude is hands down close-minded, and that is inexcusable. As for his disclaimer, I can just as readily assure you that I am not anti-Semite but just anti-Zionist, and you would retort that that's unacceptable since the consequences of my words and actions would be anti-all Jews. Therefore, fuck Charles' disclaimer: the kind of hate he spouts against ALL muslims (in his eyes, all muslims are radical islamists ... you want quotes from the site to support that?)
Frankly, he shouldn't need to, but I guess it's easier for many liberals to just label him a racist than to actually read what Charles is writing.
And he doesn't even attempt to be PC.
Good for him. Let the truth be told.
I've read what he's written several times, tried arguing with postings in good faith, been told I was a terrorist apologist, been banned, identified, and threatened. So fuck you and fuck Charles for that ... not only does he not attempt PC, he doesn't even attempt civility or open dialog. His site is hate-mongering drivel. Arguing with him is like attempting to convince a Klan that not all them niggers are that bad.
Read the above posts in more detail: Israel's right to defend itself against terrorist attacks does NOT in any way condone any and all actions that it has taken over the last 50 years.
So tell me again, how the Israelis are supposed to negotiate with groups like Hamas when said groups are hellbent on committing a REAL genocide. Sorry terror apologists, but Israel is not going to broker a "half genocide" or a "quarter genocide", it has every right to defend itself.
Tell me how the palestinian civilians who lack any defense from the Israeli bulldozers and american supplied weaponry are supposed to negotiate with the Israelis Defense Forces who are hellbent on committing a REAL genocide ("After a recount of fatalities since Sept. 29, 2000, and in some cases renewed investigation of their circumstances, AP found that 1,934 had died on the Palestinian side and 678 on the Israeli side as of Monday, Nov. 25.").
Sorry Israeli-state-sponsored-terrorist apologist, but the palestinians aren't going to broker a half- or quarter-genocide either.
Maybe if 6 million of us died, we'll get a museum, a movie by Mohommad Spielberg (Abdul's List), and a promise to "never forget."
previous posting mine ... just so we know where the flames should go to ...
Israel has only been "occupying" Palestinian territories since the 6 Day War, a war that was brought against Israel by surrounding Arab states. So if you're going to go by the "To the victors go the spoils" mantra, technically the Israelis owe nothing.
direct violation of the geneva convention ... not that that matters to israel and it's terror apologists like Philly ... lands taken in combat CANNOT be kept, proper care for civilian refugees, right of return, etc., other niceties of how to treat non-combatants.
i concede that right of return is sticky, and that granting it will SERIOUSLY cripple the state of Israel. Therefore, in the interest of peace, I feel that the palestinians should not pursue it. now, about those damn settlements that sharon seems to enjoy building so much ... they are SERIOUSLY crippling the ability to form a viable palestinian state (once jews move in, it'll be hard to move them out ...)
Hamas and Islamic Jihad's version of peace is the non-existence of Israel and they have made this point very clear through their words and their actions. This conflict has very little to do with the occupied territories and much to do with the existence of Israel.
Sharon's, Likud's, LGF's, and your version of peace is the extermination of all palestinians (why won't they just go away and be with their other arab buddies???) as has been made abundantly clear by their words and actions. This conflict has everything to do with a palestinian state.
from http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/
...tat4.htm#Israel
Israel vs. Palestinians:
Sources * SIPRI 1997: 13,000 killed (1948-96)
* B'Tselem: The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in The Occupied Territories
Counts
* Palestinians
o Security forces: 102
o Civilians: 1943
o TOTAL: 2045
Israelis
* Security forces: 193
* Civilians: 383
* TOTAL: 576
Palestinian terrorists have killed 193 Israeli soldiers and 383 civilians.
Israeli terrorists have killed 1943 palestinian citizens and 102 militants (terrorists).
For every palestinian terrorist the IDF manages to kill, 5 palestinian civilians die. if your excuse being that the terrorists are hiding among the civilians ... it didn't work as an excuse in vietnam and it doesn't work here!
So who's committing the real genocide???
For every palestinian terrorist the IDF manages to kill, 5 palestinian civilians die. if your excuse being that the terrorists are hiding among the civilians ... it didn't work as an excuse in vietnam and it doesn't work here!
Sorry ... looked at wrong numbers. Meant to say, for every palestinian terrorist the IDF manages to kill, 19 palestinian civilians die.
My problem with this is: why is it my problem? I'm tired of hearing about it and tired of the energy and resources going into it. That piece of real estate - the whole thing, Israel and Gaza and the West Bank combined, is no more relevant to Americans than Vietnam was.
It seems to me that ignorant leftists tend to blame Israel for all that is happening. They apologize for the terrorists, going "oh, they're only fighting for their freedom!" when like it has been noted, Hamas is not interested in negotiating. They're not interested in peace.
Ignorant right-wingers put all the blame on Palestinians, scoffing at the idea that a good portion of their population lives in horrendous conditions. They do. Not all, but way too many do. Israel has a right to defend itself, but bulldozing homes and firing rockets into crowded streets is extreme, and shows no regard for Palestinians.
Thus, each side has a right to be fearful and suspicious of the other. That's why the extremist views on each side needs to be cut out right now so the majority of each population that desires peace, can go about doing that without it being hijacked.
Couple more points:
The PA does have some strength to go about dismantling Hamas and Al Asqr. I think Abbas is sincere, just weak-willed.
Terrorism can only be borne out of desperate and terrible conditions of a large majority of people, however there needs to be a sizable, educated middle-class. The suicide bomber that blew up that bus, killing 17 was considered a promising young man. Or let's look at those British suicide bombers. They were Westernized and learned Western values, yet they went over to act as bombers. It seems to me that the poverty is the catalyst, but that it takes an above-average intelligence, with a strong will to be a terrorist. Those that are wallowing in poverty are oftimes not the terrorists, but those from the more affluent families.
Philly G,
I know of no rules of engagement that states that the victor has the right to treat conquered people however it damn well pleases. It doesn't matter how the Israeli forces got there. They are ruling a foreign people who have no voice in the government that controls them. Israeli activities in the territories have resulted in the deaths of many Palestinian civilians. They have destroyed crops and bulldozed homes only some of which belonged to terrorists (others belonged to people suspected of ties to terrorists, and still others were simply in the wrong place, e.g. along the route of the proposed security fence).
So tell me again, how the Israelis are supposed to negotiate with groups like Hamas when said groups are hellbent on committing a REAL genocide.
They're not. They're simply supposed to stop creating more Hamas members and supporters through brutal occupation of the territories. They're supposed to make Palestinians less dependent on Hamas and like organizations by ensuring that the have food to eat and schools to educate their children. They're supposed to address the legitimate desires of the Palestinians for self-rule and an end to occupation. All of this won't bring an immediate end to Hamas, but it will weaken them considerably.
'Other Anonymous',
Your presentation casualty statistics was rather misleading, and your interpretation of them, entirely wrong.
1. According to the B'Tselem website, 720 Israelis were killed by Palestinians between 9/29/2000 and 5/31/2003. 2099 Palestinians were killed by Israelis during the same period. I don't know where you got your statistics, but it wasn't from B'Tselem.
2. "Palestinian Security forces" are not 'militants (terrorists)'. They are police. Terrorists are included among the civilian deaths.
This is not genocide. I'm not trying to defend Israel's actions in the territories, but there's no justification for twisting statistics and mischaracterizing their actions.
Carol,
This is an American problem for a number of reasons.
1. The territories are a breeding ground for terrorism. Techniques developed there have been and will continue to be used against Americans.
2. The occupation is effectively used to justify attacks against Westerners in general.
3. The ongoing violence helps to destabilize the entire region, creating a myriad of problems for the US.
4. Israel and the US are closely identified in the minds of many people in the region. Continued occupation results in increased anti-American feeling.
5. For many reasons -- including a desire to have a genuinely friendly nation in the region, an unwillingness to turn our back on a long-time ally, and the political power of Jewish and Fundamentalist supporters of Israel in this country -- the US has and will continue to support Israel. This makes us to some extent responsible for Israel's actions.
A
Philly G: Israel is slowly releasing territory back to the Palestinians? You mean, by putting settlements on their territory? Or in some other way?
Philly G - you are a different kind of conservative than I'm used to - in fact, I don't think you are close to being conservative. You are yet another radical.
My conservative husband has for years been saying that Israel has committed the most wrongs in this situation and needs to be reigned in. He doesn't support terrorism committed by any group for any reason, but he acknowleges that the Palestinians have been shafted, that Sharon is out of control and that Israel needs to pull out of the settlements. He also advocates turning Jerusalem into a politics-free zone administered by a neutral body - maybe even (gasp) the U.N.
i sort of like the comic on Tough Crowds idea. give the palestinians a homeland in Germany. isreal is a result of WW2 and hitler. makes sense.
Philly G: Before you label it [LGF] a "hate site" as most ignorant liberals tend to do after they read it once and never visit again, note that Charles, the moderator does not add a disclaimer everytime saying he is only referring to his dislike of RADICAL Islam and not all Islam.
This is the same Charles who complained that the media was barraging us with "images of [Rachel] Corrie looking Caucasian and saintly." Yep, he's the paragon of tolerance.
'Other Anonymous',
Your presentation casualty statistics was rather misleading, and your interpretation of them, entirely wrong.
1. According to the B'Tselem website, 720 Israelis were killed by Palestinians between 9/29/2000 and 5/31/2003. 2099 Palestinians were killed by Israelis during the same period. I don't know where you got your statistics, but it wasn't from B'Tselem.
2. "Palestinian Security forces" are not 'militants (terrorists)'. They are police. Terrorists are included among the civilian deaths.
This is not genocide. I'm not trying to defend Israel's actions in the territories, but there's no justification for twisting statistics and mischaracterizing their actions.
I was trying to make a good faith argument ... the stats I got (I gave the website) didn't explicitly explain their numbers so I interpreted it as best I could. I wasn't trying to mislead on purpose, and can admit if I skewed things. Sorry ...
That being said, the stats from the B'Tselem website still confirm the skew in the number of deaths, especially civilian deaths.
Fine ... I also concur that this isn't genocide ... too strong a reaction to Philly G. Retracted.
"Sharon's, Likud's, LGF's, and your version of peace is the extermination of all palestinians (why won't they just go away and be with their other arab buddies???) as has been made abundantly clear by their words and actions. This conflict has everything to do with a palestinian state."
That and your claims of a genocide of Palestinians are a lie and you know it. I am pro-peace but I am for a peace that includes the existence of a Palestinian state and the state of Israel. Everytime there is a move towards peace, groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad start a new cycle of violence. You could argue that Israel should not respond, but then you're saying that Israel should not defend itself.
Until Hamas and Islamic Jihad either agree to accept Israel's existence outside of the occupied territories or is killed, there will NEVER be peace. Anyone who doesn't see this is ignorant of the situation in my opinion.
Let's just hope that Hamas and Islamic Jihad just negotiates for peace. But given their history, I doubt it. In that case, Israel has every right to kill every single member of groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad. That is the only way the conflict will be settled.
As for Charles, I'm sorry if he acted that way to you. I know he can be close-minded sometimes. Nevertheless, I suggest that at the very least, you still visit the site even if you don't intend to comment.
"This is the same Charles who complained that the media was barraging us with "images of [Rachel] Corrie looking Caucasian and saintly." Yep, he's the paragon of tolerance."
Rachel Corrie was a terrorist sympathizer, and involved in a group that provided a haven for terrorists, the International Solidarity Movement. If she knew of the group's efforts to provide protection for terrorists, then she is scum. If she didn't, then she is what Marx would call, "a useful idiot." Sorry, but I don't feel sorry for her either way.
Actually, Phiily G., I was commenting pm Charles' apparent belief that "looking Caucasian" is better tham lokking non-Caucasian. You being an LGF'er, I'm not surprised that you didn't get it.
We can determine how interested Sharon is in peace by the fact that on the day of the celebrated removal of illegal "outposts" , 13 houses were demolished in Beit Hanoun creating a few dozen homeless, an even that merited one sentence in the NY Times on June 10. On the day of the Aqaba summit, June 4, The Palestinian Red Crescent Society reported that an ambulance attempting to rescue injured people in the Balata Camp (under day 3 of an attack by IDF soldiers according to the Guardian) was stopped and attacked by Israeli soldiers. An EMT was "struck on the face and head” and the ambulance was turned away at gunpoint. The PRCS also reported in a separate incident on the same day that an Israeli tank shot at another ambulance attempting to aid Balata. This is what is described as Sharon's "good faith effort toward's peace" in the alternative liberal press (Boston Phoenix, June 13 editorial). Contrast this view with another story also reported on June 13 in the Financial Times about the fact that Israel helped to create Hamas as a "counterweight to the influence of the PLO." The strategy behind this was described in a 2001 UPI story by Richard Sale - “a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative” A former State Department counter-terrorism official said, “The Israelis are their own worst enemies when it comes to fighting terrorism. They are like a guy who sets fire to his hair and then tries to put it out by hitting it with a hammer. They do more to incite and sustain terrorism than curb it." If there is ever to be a chance for peace in that bloody land, it will only come when facts are reported honestly and pressure is applied to keep our ally from enacting further policies of self-destruction.
Bush, Sharon, Arafat: none would have a chance of retaining power unless a state of war exists, because the way they run their countries is opposed by large majorities of their populations.
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