I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
It's a small price for our soldiers to pay, to save us from those deadly winnebagos.
It's a small price for our soldiers to pay, to save us from those deadly winnebagos.
An article on the MSNBC website yesterday mentioned US soldiers, afraid of ambushes, patrolling the streets in armored personnel carriers while wearing the required full-length uniform, helmet, body armor, and other gear.
I can't begin to guess how hot that must be.
On the other hand, some of them must be fairly ready, I believe the train in the desert southwest of the US.
Saying it twice is twice as nice!
Seriously, there's a reason why you don't occupy desert nations if you can help it. I believe it's called 'Summer'. It can't be good for troop morale.
More and more I come to see this whole fiasco as coming about due to the tacit approval of a near majority of the American people for just killin' us some swarthy people as a response to 9/11. People are completely disconnected from caring about the discomfort of our soldiers, their drooping morale, or the danger they face everyday. We got our action movie and that makes us happy.
I say near majority, because there are those whose support is more than tacit, and it comes because they understand that there would be no political support for Bush without a war in a foreign land to make Americans feel like we're addressing 9/11, and to distract us from the atrocious economy and worsening domestic situation. Without Iraq, Bush is at best a 40% president, and these shills know it. And we all know who they are. Chances are, they'll be trolling this thread soon enough.
Yikes.
Apropos of nothing, I was chatting with a USAirways ticket counter person yesterday in Buffalo and she said her son is in Baghdad. She was going on vacation starting today, but staying home instead of travelling just so she could be there in case he got a chance to call home. There are a lot of worried moms out there, and I hope their sons get out of the heat soon.
Can you say "cognitive dissonance"? The American people don't want to accept the truth because it flies in the face of the simplistic "solutions" that have been proffered by the Administration. So they will seek to avoid and ignore any news of the senseless suffering of our own troops. There may be a point of critical mass where the balance will shift, but I don't know where that point would be. This has to go down as one of the greatest cases of mass national delusion since the 30's.
PS: The smiley face on the sun is really creepy next to the 107 degree temperature.
Break my bleedin' heart. Those people knew the job was dangerous when they took it. It's not like they were given a choice between goin' to jail or to a Third World country to kill.
But it's dry heat! Things would be so much worse if there was 80 or 90% humidity!
Someone please find some adult supervision for our neocons before they wreck OUR Army and OUR Marine Corps.
Where the hell am be everybody? I know the new Harry Potter book am be out. But, cain't you guys type and read at the same time?
Seriously, there's a reason why you don't occupy desert nations if you can help it. I believe it's called 'Summer'. It can't be good for troop morale.
I heard it said somewhere that the three greatest Russian generals were "November, December and January." I imagine this is like that in reverse. June, July and August are the three greatest Iraqi generals.
I heard the "dry heat" line when I lived in New Mexico. All it meant was that you dehydrated that much faster.
To digress: Eleanor Clift is surprisingly strident (5.35 on the Shrill-O-Meter) with this column on the Bush Arrogance Factor.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/929206.asp
Check it out.
Break my bleedin' heart. Those people knew the job was dangerous when they took it. It's not like they were given a choice between goin' to jail or to a Third World country to kill.
Are you serious? I mean it, being new here I'm not sure I've got my sarcasm detectors tuned right.
I was raised a Quaker, my dad was 1-O during Vietnam, so I don't believe in the whole war thing. However, I do respect the choices our soldiers have made, and feel bad for the position they're in. Some of these folks, like Jessica Lynch, see the military as a way out of impoverished towns; others have a firm belief in honor and duty, perhaps because *their* fathers were in the military. Do I agree with their conclusions? No. But I don't like seeing them have to swelter in the extreme heat, have rocks thrown at them, etc. I support them and want them to come home alive.
Cops, firemen, soldiers, and lots of other people take on jobs they know are dangerous. I don't think that puts the rest of us in a position to be holier-than-thou and say "ha! you knew the risks" when danger rears its head.
Here's another way to git outta a hillbilly hellhole -- Greyhound.
Yea, it's too bad that the left keep the military from it's job with its pointless debate about the liberation of Iraq and keeping Saddam in power. They would have been in Iraq during a milder time of the year.
"Yea, it's too bad that the left keep the military from it's job with its pointless debate about the liberation of Iraq and keeping Saddam in power. They would have been in Iraq during a milder time of the year."
Actually, they were holding out for cheaper rates during the off-season.
Had the US invaded in October, our soldiers would still be there now anyway. So what's your point?
Yea, it's too bad that the left keep the military from it's job with its pointless debate about the liberation of Iraq and keeping Saddam in power. They would have been in Iraq during a milder time of the year.
Sarcastic or not sarcastic? It's getting so hard to tell anymore. This seems like an over the top parody of a right winger. On the other hand, it could be a right winger who really is that over the top.
Here's another way to git outta a hillbilly hellhole -- Greyhound.
True, but you gotta go somewhere. And not everybody's as smart as you are.
Yea, it's too bad that the left keep the military from it's job with its pointless debate about the liberation of Iraq and keeping Saddam in power.
Yea, it's too bad that the right forgot to tell everybody that we're going to be there for a decade plus. No matter when our illegal war started, the military's going to be sweltering through 10 summers or more. That's not me saying it, but Wolfowitz and the vice-chair of the JCS.
have y'all noticed that the "embedded" journalists aren't over there, sweating it out with the troops anymore?
It's no day at the beach, that's for sure. Plus, no beer to wet the whistle.
Read The Talisman by Sir Walter Scott. In those days, they did not have air conditioning anywhere.
have y'all noticed that the "embedded" journalists aren't over there, sweating it out with the troops anymore?
They don't need to be there any more. Dear Leader has declared the war is over. We're just there now to tidy up--spring cleaning is hardly news.
>Yea, it's too bad that the left keep the military from it's job with its pointless debate about the liberation of Iraq and keeping Saddam in power. They would have been in Iraq during a milder time of the year.
Plus, we would have been much further along with the body count by now. What were we thinking?
OT, but my wife just heard Wait Wait -- Don't Tell Me (NPR) call Bill O'Reilly an "overpaid honky".
We don't get Wait Wait until 1:00 here. I'll definetely be listening to hear that.
It's just winding up here...I must have missed it.
I'll tell ya, at this point I'd take those temperatures over more of this drizzly March shit we're still getting in New York.
From the Post article yesterday on how demoralized the soldiers are getting (they never leave the barracks except on patrol, they aren't trained as peacekeepers, the APC's they use for patrol are too big for some streets and make so much noise only deaf criminals or guerillas would get caught) said someone had painted a sign on an Army emplacement, "Will Kill for Ticket Home."
OT, but my wife just heard Wait Wait -- Don't Tell Me (NPR) call Bill O'Reilly an "overpaid honky".
FYI, the show running here on Vermont Public Radio is one of those special pledge drive dealios, so you might not hear it where you are. Apparently the stations can pick and choose which segments they run in between pitching. My wife works for VPR, so I got the inside dope.
Let's bring in Ann Miller for a chorus of "Too Darn Hot"!
Yikes! I lived in Phoenix for a few years, and found that one does get used to the heat over time, but NEVER did I get used to anything over 105 degrees. That is just miserable.
A couple days ago CNN ran several brief interviews with soldiers in Iraq. It was a flashback to Vietnam. The soldiers all complained that they had been "lied to" by their "leaders" about the time they would be in Iraq, and their living conditions while there. They all expected to head home a couple weeks after reaching the airport in Baghdad. They said that since reaching Baghdad, their "leaders" had made a series of promises to them, all broken.
And it's 109 degrees in the shade...
Yikes! I lived in Phoenix for a few years, and found that one does get used to the heat over time, but NEVER did I get used to anything over 105 degrees. That is just miserable.
A couple days ago CNN ran several brief interviews with soldiers in Iraq. It was a flashback to Vietnam. The soldiers all complained that they had been "lied to" by their "leaders" about the time they would be in Iraq, and their living conditions while there. They all expected to head home a couple weeks after reaching the airport in Baghdad. They said that since reaching Baghdad, their "leaders" had made a series of promises to them, all broken.
And it's 109 degrees in the shade...
Well, I've lived in that kind of heat most of my life, plus the humidity that they don't have there. I can tell you that it isn't fit for humans, which is why I get the hell our of Dallas at the end of every May and don't go back until October. It's brutal. I feel for the servicemen and women who can't even dress down for the heat. It's got to shred tempers.
"Every Marine... for his queen... is not."
Nice one, David! 
Hey, David, maybe we could do a musical version of "Lawrence of Arabia"...
Rick, I saw that same report and had the same impression. It's amazing isn't it? I sometimes feel cursed to have only a general knowledge of the history of the Vietnam War. It's so frightening to see the same lessons of history played out again like this...
Another CNN propagandist named Ken Robinson said something astounding on CNN yesterday. He was being interviewed about the breakdown of security in Iraq and he said that the US was now engaged in what is called "foreign internal defense."
Repeat: "FOREIGN INTERNAL DEFENSE."
If there is a more Orwellian term, please let me know!
It was the same in Vietnam. The US had to send 1/2 million troops 10,000 miles to invade another nation in order to fight "internal aggression."
The US had to defend Vietnam from the Vietnamese. Now, in Iraq, the US has to defend Iraq from the Iraqis.
Could someone pinch me please?...
...or maybe just wake me when it's all over...
So what. It gets up in the high 90s in Washington, and we have horrible humidity, Rumsfeld.
I interviewed a Reservist home on leave for the C-section birth of his first child. He said the temperture was 142, an overstatement since the world record is 136. But maybe it feels like that when you're wearing body armour and helmet.
Poor bastard didn't want to return too much with a wife and newborn child at home, and his unit has no idea how long they are to stay. Like most in the Reserve and Guard, he thought he was only signing for a little extra income. He was saving to buy a home, but for many its education benefits.
I have to admit, the Army has been upfront for years. The message is that something like 60 percent of its assets are in Guard and Reserve and in a time of war, they could expect to be called to active duty -- especially in support functions like transportation and military police. I never interviewed a man or woman before January that took that seriously, through.
The soldiers in Iraq right now can't come home.
They are there, they know the stated reason for the war is a lie, they were lied to then and they're being lied to now.
And they are not happy about it.
They are a direct threat to the junta in DC. If they come home, they'll form the core of a trained resistance to the criminal regime in DC.
That cannot be allowed to happen. So they'll be left in Iraq to rot.
If they come home, they'll form the security cordon around the Duck Pit.
I'll tell ya, at this point I'd take those temperatures over more of this drizzly March shit we're still getting in New York.
We've been getting the same thing in NC, and I sure as hell wouldn't trade it for 100+. This time of year, every day that's not scorching hot with 90% humidity, you give thanks for. I can't imagine what it would be like to endure the heat (dry though it may be), wearing kevlar, loaded down with gear, working around big, hot engines, and having people shooting and tossing grenades at you. That's a lot of crap to have to deal with, just to assure the GOP another term in the White House. If I were a soldier and I missed my wife and kids and cold beer, I'd just see if Bush would let me come home, in return for raising a couple thou for his re-election campaign.
Seriously, wouldn't it have been better for everybody if, instead of all the killing and chaos and anarchy and mayhem and looting and anger and retaliation and resistance, Rove had just had the military raising money for Bush's campaign? Think of it. With the can-do military as the fundraising foot-soldiers, so to speak, Bush could raise a whole billion dollars. That's your true shock & awe, right there.
If the warbloggers had put it to me back in February, you can choose between an illegal, unprovoked invasion of a sovereign nation, or having the military raise campaign money for Bush, I would have taken the latter in a heartbeat. I mean, how much money can he spend on his campaign, after all? Like Jon Stewart said the other night, iterating through the Dem candidates: $5 mil to beat Kerry, $3 mil for Gephardt, $2 mil for Dean (I forget the exact numbers), and so on. And Sharpton and Mosely-Braun would actually being paying Bush to defeat them.
So at the end of it, he's got like all the rest of the money left for caviar and champagne for the press. That's what Margaret Carlson said, the reason the press savaged Gore and coddled Bush was the disparity in the quality of free food from the two campaigns. Just imagine what like a billion dollars raised by the military could do for Margaret! It would be a dessert a minute, I tell you.
Under this scenario, everybody wins! At least, everyone who counts. Also, Tony Blair.
"Its just like Washington, DC. Only a lot hotter."
--Rummy
I think rummy said that. I don't maybe somebody else.
Oh, and by the by...
I can tell you from personal experience that yes, it does suck to wear full combat gear in desert heat.
This is a claim that I am certain the mbfs who are intent on disrupting this site cannot truthfully make.
Then again, truth and facts are not things that mbfs have any familiarity with...like their Dear Leader the fratboy coward.
Comparison to Phoenix: None.
50 miles outside of Phoenix is one of the largest Nuclear Power Plants in the US. (Also a terrorist target.) The sole purpose of this plant is to power the A/C in Phoenix.
Right now, much of Phoenix is wandering around with summer colds, which are a big threat when the temps indoors is 65 degrees and the temps outdoors is 107.
Killing people is rough work.
"Yea, it's too bad that the left keep the military from it's job with its pointless debate about the liberation of Iraq and keeping Saddam in power. They would have been in Iraq during a milder time of the year."
Oh how short the Wingnut's memory is. The US was ALWAYS going to go in Febuary or March as the optimal time when the US would get enough of it's forces into position, and leave enough time for the projected war before summer. Dare we ask why you don't remember all of the leaks in October saying such? Well, I'm sure you won't have an answer for that. So here's a softball for you anonymous. What are the troops STILL doing in Iraq as July approaches? Many of them, who should have been rotated out at least by now, would like to know....
"They are there, they know the stated reason for the war is a lie...And they are not happy about it."
When do we stop letting the troops off the hook? Are they still guided by a conscience? If so, are they not capable of resisting? If it is so bad, then why don't they refuse to serve?
No, I think the reality is that some may complain, but most probably support what they're a part of. Contrary to the myth that most military personel join just for the job, I believe that most join precisely because they want to be a part of this empire. To be a victorious warrior is part of the allure. Social reinforcement makes it all the more enticing - parades, honors. It's how it all works...
...Until the horror catches up with you. Until the sight of so many dismembered people make you wonder if it's all worth it. Until the stench of rotting flesh makes you ask what the purpose of this all is. Until the hatred overwhelmes you...
...But it's far too early for all that yet...the Fourth of July is only a couple of weeks away!
"They are a direct threat to the junta in DC."
You know, Gary, there are a lot of people on this site helping the Bush 2004 campaign by making the left look bad, but you are the master. Expect a bonus in your next paycheck!
"You know, Gary, [quack] there are a lot of people on this site [quack-quack] helping the Bush 2004 campaign by [quack-quack-QUAACK], um, by making the left look bad, [QUAAACK-quackquackquack] but, uh, [quack-quack] you are the master. [quackQUAAACKquackquack] Expect a bonus in your next paycheck! [QUAAAACKquackQUACKquackQUAAACKQUAAACK] NO!!! GOD NOOOOO!!!! Aaaaaa!!!
[quack :::burp:::]
I remember, just before the war, looking at unclassified research on heat exhaustion. That body armor adds 5 degrees to the ambient temperature, so to the guy wearing it, if must feel like 114 degrees in the shade.
At least they aren't wearing it in combination with their MOPP gear, which adds something like additional 10 degrees.
Anon:
When exactly is a mild time of the year for a desert? Just curious...
Atrios -
I'll donate $100 to the Democratic organization of your choosing, if you'll move your blog to a more stable technical platform.
Contrary to the myth that most military personel join just for the job, I believe that most join precisely because they want to be a part of this empire. To be a victorious warrior is part of the allure. Social reinforcement makes it all the more enticing - parades, honors. It's how it all works...
I can accept this to an extent. I'm reading Chris Hedges' "War is a Force that Gives Us Meaning", and that's pretty much the message he hammers home. But let's not paint with too broad a brush. I mean, look at the recruitment stuff we see on TV (and I guess in the high schools): be independent, get money for college, see the world, etc. I was raised to look at this critically--not everybody does think about what the job entails (i.e., killing).
I might buy that if the US hasn't engaged in dozens of violent interventions over the past 3 decades. You'd have to have been on another planet to not realize that you are trained to be a killer when you join the US military. It just doesn't wash...
I will grant you this though...the troops are the first to acknowledge the fact that war crimes and atrocities are being commited. That's been true of every war. They are the ones doing it, and they are the ones who feel the guilt...
...contrary to the ruling class elites who are the ones who must construct the myths and spread the propaganda...
The troops are the ones who the ruling class elite will give the shaft to when they return... and they know that as well.
And the moronic brownshirt chickenhawks posting here, blathering about the left's "hatred" of "our boys," will be the first ones complaining when they stumble over the homeless vets on the streets.
I might buy that if the US hasn't engaged in dozens of violent interventions over the past 3 decades. You'd have to have been on another planet to not realize that you are trained to be a killer when you join the US military. It just doesn't wash...
Intellectually, I buy this reasoning--it's certainly parallel to the foundations of my philosophy. However, there is an element of "it can't happen to me" in a lot of what people do, even wrt to military service. Lots of folks think they'll just do their stint and be done, or that the reserves will never be called up, or whatever. No, that's not realistic, but they made a choice based on their worldview and what their (mis)estimation of the odds are.
I'm not an apologist for the military. As I said, I'm a Quaker and believe firmly in non-violence. One reason I think violence is not an answer is because I don't think I have all the answers, so I do give soldiers the benefit of the doubt.
No, "just following orders" isn't a good excuse, but I'm also not comfortable with "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem." Just as binary as aWol's reasoning.
It's very easy for us back home to say that soldiers should exercise their conscience and refuse to participate in the conflict. Quite frankly, I don't know how I would react in their position, and do not presume to dictate how they should behave. They're young, scared, and faced with dangers I cannot imagine.
dave, et al, yeah, I hate them so much I was saying that I really felt for them there in that heat, unable to dress correctly for it, doing an awful job that continues to be dangerous. Yeah, I hate them, this lefty just hates them.
quack quack quack quack quack quack!
Elias,
Most of them aren't thinking on the level of foreign policy or US aggression or any of that. Many aren't even in combat arms. Most troops are "tail", not "teeth". For many in combat arms the full realization of what their job entails doesn't hit them until they hit the combat zone.
Which may explain a lot of the grumbling that seems to be coming out of Iraq. The compaints about "I don't know who the enemy is" are familiar.
A lot of them are just scared, confused kids, put in a very dangerous sitation where people are shooting at them.
Cheney thought he'd the troops by now.
The world wouldn't play along.
No french or germans ready to take over peacekeeping like in Afganistan.
Just another of Cheney's many screw ups
Vice Grip
Dick Cheney is a man of principles. Disastrous principles.
http://
www.washingtonmonthly.com...1.marshall.html
Will trade cool wet weather for some heat and sun. Contact Noah in Eastern U.S.
And Cheney has his doctor monitoring him 24 hours a day.
And, yes, Tena, we so hate young men put into a repulsive situation that we wish...
We wish they'd come back home, enjoy the weather, be with friends and/or family, have cookouts, and get a lot of living and loving in.
These trolls need to...need to...
change places with those soldiers.
Those soldiers were ALSO lied to.
Phoenix is wonderful for a long spell in the Spring and a short bit in the Fall. Actually from February until early June, and then from late October until mid November.
I find the "dry winters" to be the worst. December can be terribly cold, and I think the low humidity makes it feel worse. Give me snow than just bitter cold air. (That said, I've never lived in the snow for more than a week.)
The summers are bearable unless you are a young kid or an A/C repairman. When I take my kids out, I keep an ice chest in the car filled with ice, water, snacks, and wet towels. I drape a towel over their car seats (surprising how many exposed metal parts (latches) are in those things). But most people look at me funny when I do all that. (But boy, a nice cold towel on your face feels great and takes the whine away from me and them.)
Phoenix nights in the summer are terrific, esp. if you have child care. People play basketball and tennis till midnight. You can walk up Piestawa Peak till real late. Lots of bars and resorts are open with outdoor patios. Live music with a $5 cover. Lots of cheap titty bars too.
About two hours from Flagstaff, four from the Canyon, five from the Sea of Cortez, Texas, Sea World.
And you can carry guns as long as they are not concealed.
You cannot walk anywhere though. The town isn't made for it. Get a car with good A/C. Also, to best endure, you may wish to check your brains at the border -- they will fry in Phoenix and aren't really needed there anyway.
Erik, I'm with you. Death to blogspot!
Most troops are "tail", not "teeth".
Gary, I would not presume to delve into areas you know better than I, but let me back you up just because I was looking into this very thing today.
In Vietnam, we had 440,029 troops in country as of 1 Jan, 1969. Of those, 372,429 were "support" and 67,600 were "combat arms". And if you look at our storied Jessica Lynch, she was a supply clerk in a maintenance company.
Best time of year for the best nights in Phoenix: Late August to Mid September when the summer monsoons arrive.
The days are miserable hot and high humidity. Around 3pm the electrical storms start and from 3 until 8 there are just magificent lightning displays covering the sky. Figure out which mountain they are hitting, and hike up the other ones.
After 8pm, the sky clears up. Head for a bar or resort or your patio, get toasted, and enjoy the coolish temperatures and the lights of the city.
3am. Turn out the lights. Say a prayer the nuclear plant operators will remain alert and vigilant and that the wind will come in from the east.
I am pretty sure that blogspot isn't the real problem -- the real problem is Haloscan.
Haloscan will be first against the wall when the revolution comes.
Atrios -
I'll donate $100 to the Democratic organization of your choosing, if you'll move your blog to a more stable technical platform.
I second the motivation, but can't match the cash. I'll donate $25 for Eschaton, though.
Ah, nukequler power.
I'll third the motion to change, and I'll contribute $50 to Atrios.
Ok, since we're talking about heat, I'll throw in another $.03 worth. In Dallas in July, August and September, it is still 98% at 10:30 PM, with 85 - 90% humidity. You pray something doesn't go wrong with the AC, 'cause if it goes, it's a nightmare.
Here, the wind woke me up the other night - another storm was coming in. I woke up and the mountains around the lake were dusted with fresh snow. Today is the first day it's been out of the 50's all week. And the wind is blowing about 40 MPH - typical for the Rockies in June. It is heaven. It is paradise. It rained all last week and we were dancing in it. Heat kills. It really does. I'll take this any day.
no 98% - sorry - degrees.
I am pretty sure that blogspot isn't the real problem -- the real problem is Haloscan.
Yeah, Haloscan seems to be having brain farts all day. Lots of "too many connection" errors, and other such annoyances. Mayhaps Atrios is just too damned popular?
I am pretty sure that blogspot isn't the real problem -- the real problem is Haloscan.
Yeah, Haloscan seems to be having brain farts all day, and not just here. Lots of "too many connection" errors, and other such annoyances. Mayhaps Atrios' minions are overwhelming P4Host?
NTodd - I've been getting the "too many connections" error message consistently now for at least 5 days. It is virtually guaranteed that I won't be able to get to the comments the first 2 times I try. And I'm afraid to hit "refresh" anymore - I can't tell you how many times I've totally lost "comments" after I have.
The French said wait, let the inspectors do their work. Those crazy French. They wouldn't believe that the threat was imminent. You know, WNDs being deployed to the front lines.
What front lines?
What WMDs?
Don't worry. We'll find those WMDs. One way or another.
The French said wait, let the inspectors do their work. Those crazy French. They wouldn't believe that the threat was imminent. You know, WMDs being deployed to the front lines.
Yes, yes, and yes, the non-coalition should have sent up major warnings.
Totally unrelated but interesting anyway.
In the lead for the most confusing news stories, and on the same day no less:
A pity. So much for the so-called "bullshit detector".
http://news.independent.co.uk/bu...sp?
story=417770
"The days of corporate waffle are numbered. The more management-speak in a company report, the worse a firm is doing, say the developers of a "bullshit" detector."
---------
"It is a way of denying what's going on. It avoids acknowledging how bad the problems really are. You can predict fairly accurately whether a company is going to survive or fail based on its statements."
The article then goes on to provide drug maker AstraZeneca as an example of a good company.
"At the other end of the scale, the plainest-speaking of the companies was AstraZeneca. "We have a chief executive and chief finance officer who use simple language to explain complex scientific matters," says a spokesman. "That's where the motivation comes from."
Now note the headline and byline in this article:
http://www.delawareonline.com/
ne...zenecaguil.html
"AstraZeneca Guilty of Felony
Drug maker helped doctors defraud federal agencies"
More here:
http://news.google.com/news?
hl=e...tnG=Search+News
pie - If you mean that the fact that the French and Germans, etc. etc. refused to join the Coalition of the Bilious should have been a warning to the people of the US, I have to say that I think the PR machine took care of that by deflecting the whole thing over onto how obnoxious the French are. MY god in heaven, I should have broken that down into at least 2 sentences. Sorry. If I missed your point, sorry again.
Those of us who marched against the war did so in behalf of the poor guys who are now taking sniper fire in 120 degree heat. But we were told we were not supporting the troops.
If you look at the faces of the American dead (posted on the internet), you see pretty quickly that the army is drawn mainly from underprivileged elements of our society. Having a professional army largely of the disadvantaged makes wars like Iraq all too easy to conduct. Had there been a draft, there would have been real discussion, and no war.
Those of us who marched against the war did so in behalf of the poor guys who are now taking sniper fire in 120 degree heat. But we were told we were not supporting the troops.
If you look at the faces of the American dead (posted on the internet), you see pretty quickly that the army is drawn mainly from underprivileged elements of our society. Having a professional army largely of the disadvantaged makes wars like Iraq all too easy to conduct. Had there been a draft, there would have been real discussion, and no war.
Tena, YES. The French and Germans refused to join the COB. That is one of the reasons I knew that something was rotten in the state of America.
pie - oh, absolutely. And the way the Wurlitzer handled it was brilliant, really. It ignored Germany's refusal and concentrated people's jingoism against the French, who are the nation every other nation apparently loves to hate. So simple. So deadly. The bastards.
pie,
It sent flags up for me. Why not let the inspectors work for 60 days like the French wanted. Powell lied, he said the french would veto invasion under any circumstance. Another Powell bold faced lie.
Karl Rove's polls showed support for war in Iraq slipping.
Cheney couldn't care less about france or germany or any other country. If the American poeple were against invading even he wouldn't send in brave Americas willing to give all they have for their country.
That's why the big hurry.
And don't kid yourself, Cheney is the brain cell behind this cabal.
The compaints about "I don't know who the enemy is" are familiar.
I've been thinking the same thing, and, compared to that, the heat doesn't seem like such a big deal. I've had friends who had served in Vietnam, and that not knowing is what they always seem to come back to when they talk about the nightmares that still keep them up nights.
Those of us who marched against the war did so in behalf of the poor guys who are now taking sniper fire in 120 degree heat. But we were told we were not supporting the troops.
That's what needs to be said, over and over again. The soldiers AREN'T the bad guys.
The BAD GUYS are the ONES who sent the soldiers over in the first place.
hadenough - Of course Cheney is the one. First the cabal got together and decided on GW Bush as their candidate. Then of course you'll remember that Cheney offered himself up as the VP - he was supposed to head the committee to find a VP candidate and surprise - he decided he was the best choice. Why do you think Bushie was flying around all day on 9/11, while Cheney was hustled into the bunker tout suite?
Tena,
Yeah,
That was nice of him to offer his services.
Some where I have a link to all the people that slept over at the Texas gov.s mansion while Bush was gov.
Reads like a whos who of the current cabal.
Cheney et al said that this conflict was going to make us safer.
We invaded a weak country.
Now, are more Americans being killed by Iraqis than would have died if they "attacked" us?
Welcome to the Quagmire!:
'Apocalypse Now' Music Fires Up U.S. Troops for Raid
BAGHDAD (Reuters) - U.S. troops psyched up on a bizarre musical reprise from Vietnam war film "Apocalypse Now" before crashing into Iraqi homes to hunt gunmen on Saturday, as Shi'ite Muslims rallied against the U.S. occupation of Iraq .
With Wagner's "Ride of the Valkyries" still ringing in their ears and the clatter of helicopters overhead, soldiers rammed vehicles into metal gates and hundreds of troops raided houses in the western city of Ramadi after sunrise as part of a drive to quell a spate of attacks on U.S. forces.
A previously unknown group, calling itself the Iraqi National Front of Fedayeen, vowed to intensify assaults on U.S. troops until they leave Iraq.
A man with his face swathed in a red-and-white headscarf read the threat on a videotape received by Lebanon's LBC television. There was no way to verify its authenticity.
"If they want their soldiers to be safe, they must leave our pure land," the man said, disavowing any link to Saddam Hussein (news - web sites). He was flanked by three masked men with weapons.
Iraqi assailants have killed 17 U.S. soldiers since major combat was declared over on May 1, three weeks after the fall of Baghdad ended 24 years of Saddam Hussein's iron rule.
U.S. officials blame the attacks on Saddam loyalists. Many Iraqis say the resistance is fueled by resentment at the occupation and the behavior of U.S. troops.
"The Americans are occupiers and aggressors," said Sayyid Ali, one of about 2,000 Shi'ites who protested outside the vast palace compound in Baghdad now used by Iraq's U.S. rulers.
"They were supposed to free us from the oppressor, now they are only occupying us," he said. "We want to form a national government. "We want freedom and justice."
SOUR PERCEPTIONS
The United States and Britain say their forces will stay put until they can restore security, revive the economy and arrange a transition to an elected, sovereign Iraqi government.
However, they have failed to find Saddam or his alleged arsenal of weapons of mass destruction which they cited as their main justification for going to war on March 20...
President Bush, floating a new explanation for the failure to find banned weapons, said suspected arms sites had been looted as Saddam's government crumbled.
"For more than a decade, Saddam Hussein went to great lengths to hide his weapons from the world. And in the regime's final days, documents and suspected weapons sites were looted and burned," Bush said in his weekly radio address...
One unit of troops dragged half a dozen men from their homes as women wailed. They seized weapons and a computer disk.
Officers said they aimed to capture five men from the Fedayeen paramilitary for
"CNN reported eyewitnesses saw a soldier push a woman standing in line, and that an argument and chaos broke out. A car stopped and opened fire, killing the soldier and injuring another...
In a separate incident Wednesday morning, two Iraqi protesters were killed by a U.S. soldier in the center of Baghdad.
After being pelted with rocks, the soldier on a military police convoy fired upon a crowd of Iraqis protesting outside the gates of the Republican Palace, now the main U.S. military and government headquarters."
Stars and Stripes
There were only a couple of sentences left, but I wanted to make sure my sign-off got on:
Thanks for nothing, moronic brownshirt chickenhawks.
By the way, you can start apologizing profusely to all of us who opposed this madness at any time...
Lets find Sadam and give him his job back.
Then we can start all over.
This time he'll know Cheney means business and he'll cut a sweet deal with US oil companies that are chartered in Bermuda but have their exec.s live in the US.
---------------
Refiners Reportedly Buying Most of Iraq's Oil
July 20 — Even as Saddam Hussein vows to use his country's oil as a weapon in the Middle East conflict, American companies are buying most of Iraq's U.N.-approved oil exports, oil industry sources tell ABCNEWS.com
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/
w...720_cooley.html
Iraq crude boycott targets U.S. oil import reliance
New York |Reuters | 05-12-2000
Iraq's decision to impose a crude oil export boycott on the U.S. comes at a time when America's refiners have become more dependent on Baghdad's oil than ever before.
http://www.gulf-news.com/Article...?
ArticleID=4174
BobNJ "Those of us who marched against the war did so in behalf of the poor guys who are now taking sniper fire in 120 degree heat. But we were told we were not supporting the troops."
That's right Bob. Neocons on the other hand have shown their support by slashing vet benefits.
It's their special way of saying 'Thank you'. Evidently, President Bush's support for the troops doesn't include their health care.
a
Neocons on the other hand have shown their support by slashing vet benefits.
Screw 'em. They knew how dangerous the job was going in...
</sarcasm>
This is my third summer in Phoenix. I'd almost trade the summer colds for what has been happening this summer. Whenever I go from an air conditioned space to outside (e.g., something like a 30 degree temperature change), I get nauseous. This is an every day event: get off work, leave the building, get in the car, start driving, feel like heaving. Blech.
This may be related to the fact that I am wearing fewer layers of clothes this summer than I have for the last 10 years. I decided last year that it was entirely too hot to wear my Mormon undergarments and switched to normal undies on a permanent basis. It does make a huge difference when you've not got an extra layer that goes from shoulder to nearly knee. Seriously.
The reason you don't fight in deserts in summer is the same reason you don't invade Russia in the winter. Mother Nature is the badest force on the planet, and we haven't figure out how to kick her ass yet (altho, the war of atrition is going pretty well, I guess).
Oh...and Thumb, thank you for a hilarious rebuttal of future polluter of duckmeat "Karl Rove".
When you are in a hot country, you have to dress for it. Otherwise, you are going to wind up with heatstroke. One late September in Dallas when it was brutally hot - 105 or so daily, my husband played in a softball tournament - double elimination - his team kept playing and playing. Until the youngest guy on the team collapsed. He spent 14 days in the hospital near kidney failure. My husband should have been in the hospital - every single muscle in his body cramped. Another player was stopped by a cop for driving erratically, and after hearing the explanation, escorted him to the hospital. And these guys were wearing soft ball uniforms, not military uniforms. I can't imagine how they can even think straight with the heat, the confusion, the danger. And the needlessness of it.
This is why I was against the war. This and the over 5000 Iraqi civilians killed.
my cousin when she lived in Colorado said-but it's a dry heat.
So is an oven/
I read a book by the painter of Indian GeorgeCatlin from the mid-1800's. he went with a corp/brigade? into texas in summer. most never came back.
yesterday the death count went from 190 to 193. I wondered how they died as it wasn't in the news I guess dying of heat stroke isn't good enough for the MWs.
I live in Colorado now, and I've lived in both the Midwest and the South, and yes there is a difference between a dry heat and a wet heat.
But past a certain point, it's unbearable whether it's wet or dry.
If Bush's grandious plans extend much further, the draft may have to be reintroduced.
If this happens, the public should insist on the following caveats:
(1) No college deferments.
(2) Draft boards should not be locally controlled. Numbers should be picked randomly by the federal government. Local draft boards can skew the numbers to favor certain individuals, as was done during the Vietnam war.
(3) Those people who are against the war in question should be excused without repercussions.
(4) Those individuals who have "something better to do," or who cannot find a spot because "the minorities have taken up all the available spaces" should be reminded that enlistment is always an option.
Of course, this is an unobtainable goal. But nothing is more reprehensible than a noncombatent who supports a war after it is fought.
Dubya lied about the 'imminence' of the WMD threat so he could let loose the troops in the spring, instead of in the Iraqi summer heat, when mechanical equipment of any sort gets temperamental.
Of course, Cheney and the PNAC gang were telling him the whole thing would be over in a few days, the locals would welcome us with cheers and flowers, etc.
Now we've got GI's wearing body armor guarding gas stations in 110 degrees plus.
What a colossal f***-up!
Swoosh, et. al., regardless of how I felt about the war, I always wondered why they just didn't make the temps a legit argument for war now.
I thought it was a legit argument. Hypothetically from Bush, "We either have to be prepared for inspections and containment for another year and we think they may get deployable chemical missiles before then, or invade now, because invading in August isn't an option."
If BushCo reaps Bad Karma from this, it's bad karma he deserves. It's what comes from not trusting in the American Public. (Corollary, if he doesn't reap bad karma from this, it's what I deserve for trusting in the American Public.)
A slightly off-topic note: The UK Observer is reporting that the U.S. might have finally gotten Saddam & is DNA testing possible remains (and if they did get him, I called it yesterday, doggone it!).
Which will undoubtedly take the issues of WMD and the summer heat off the table for several weeks, if the Wurlitzer has any say in the matter.
In defense of these kids sweltering in Kevlar. If they had found batteries of missile launchers loaded with chemical weapons, and warehouses full of vials of biologicals alongside piles of FedEx envelopes labeled "To Osama, please forward to Anytown USA" there would not have been a single bitch - period.
Look I am a vet. I joined up because I was totally broke and could not find a job. Which does not make me any more or less a patriot than some kid who always dreamed of being GI Joe. Military people, whether 'tail' or 'teeth', understand that killing, when necessary, is part of the job, and that every state-side supply clerk is contributing to it. They also deeply appreciate the relative minority of their service that faces the other end of the stick - combat soldiers risking death. They only ask that they not be asked to kill or be killed for anything less than the security of the country.
This war is failing that test.
I tried this yesterday but Haloscan ate it, it was late and I said screw it.
I have lived in Saudi Arabia though not in combat gear (early 80's) and have flown from there to Phoenix (in the summer). There is a difference between the two but it matters little as both are hotter than Hell. The real difference is the land or "desert". Phoenix is a "tropical" desert compared to the Middle East. Remember they have to import sand to make cement in that part of the world because 80-90% of the sand has the consistency of talcum powder. "In the shade" is a cute phrase in a place where "shade" exists only where men have put and maintained it. 20 years ago EVERYTHING in S.A. had A.C. and I don't suppose the rest of the region is any different. How many people would be living in Phoenix without W.C.s/A.C.? I would not want to be living in a tent and patrolling in combat gear in Iraq. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. "Miserable conditions" would be a furlough worth fighting for just for the improvement. I imagine the reason that steady electricity and water are such a big issue (and target) is that it takes awhile to starve to death, but dehydration and heat stroke will kill you long before an empty belly does.
DavidE, your 404 is very cute....
regards,
Any of you that have experienced 100 degree (plus) temperatures and hasn't gone through it in some place that has high humidity; you simply don't know what you are saying.
i remember times living in boulder when i literally thought my skin was being burned off by a laser beam. i got similarly burned in san diego on the beach. conversely, in a dark foetid apartment in philly one summer i lay on a couch and literally could not breathe due to the humidity, sensing that i was drowning to death. it felt like i was having congestive heart failure. so, you're screwed comin' and goin'.
if i had had to engage in a firefight in combat gear in either type of situation i think i would have probably thrown down my gun and said "just fuckin' shoot me!!!" i think it probably is an important factor in the news stories we are reading about where servicemen and women are losing their professional edge...people who were born and raised in that environment are going to have a big head-start on people coming from a less intense climate.
keep stirring stuff up, friends -- i've been getting depressed and losing hope, and you all goad me back into wanting to take it to the street.
Here's the bad news. Guerillas get hot too. The Iraqi resistance will become more active in October.
Once the occupation authority rebuilds enough infrastructure in the south the Shia will become active in the resistance.
Thus far casualties for the 41 nation Coalition of the Willing have been light because of body armor. Iraqi irregulars will adjust their tactics and will become more effective at killing and maiming.
Guys in the engine rooms during wwii had to put up with high humidity and 120 degree plus temps.
Perhaps evidence of the greatest generation after all.
>Perhaps evidence of the greatest generation after all.
Did the guys in the engine room spend 24 hours a day for three months in 110 degree heat? Did the guys in the engine room spend a six month rotation in an every day combat zone?
Please get off that "mine's bigger" and they're lucky to serve crap.
Jeez, CMike, sorry to hear about the bug that crawled up your ass. Obviously yours is bigger than mine, probably bigger than all of ours. Jeez, I know I'm a wimp and those guys in wwii are all pussies.
Unless you're trying for a smiley free funny.
Whatever dude. I think you've mistaken me for someone else.
In all fairness it does get down to about 85 in the middle of the night, down right chilly after the day. If you've ever wondered about why you see some middle eatsern dude in a winter coat in July, think "he spent a lot of time outside".
"DavidE, your 404 is very cute...."
Try this.
Hmmm.
At least it's "dry" heat. Sorta like Arizona and much of the American Southwest. They're tough, young, and healthy. Our boys (and girls) will be fine.
Oh god. Neither WW2 soldiers nor today's soldiers are better or less "wimpy" than the other. They're all brave and dutiful.
My buddy is going over there now.
Adam 4-4-2, wait till your buddy has been over there a month and feed him that "dry heat" line. I'm sure he'll get a kick out of it.
Tell him to take it easy (that isn't an expression), watch his ass and try not to let the local assholes get to him. I wish him luck.
I just mean relative to high humidity places. "Dry Heat" feels cooler. I mean 107 degrees with 2% humidity feels lot cooler than 95 degrees with 80% humidity. But, yeah, dry heat has the danger of dehydration.
I wished him well, gave a big bear hug.
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