I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
It is frankly too agonizing thinking of all the maimed kids that are coming out of Iraq. I feel like people only pay attention to the guys that get killed-- but many of these wounded kids' lives are wrecked.
Think our wonderful leader gives more than a second of thought to this?
Cleland acts as if he's the only person to ever go to war. He's made a career of wearing his "red badge of courage" and milking the public's sympathy for everything it's worth.
Zzzzzzzz . . .
Fuck you tomaig.
The whole point of Vietnam was that we weren't supposed to get into long protracted conflicts like Iraq. How do you think Colin Powell like this little war?
Hey, tomaig, let's you and me go down to the VFW hall and you can make that remark.
LAS VEGAS (July 26) - A promoter who offered to take men on ``Hunting for Bambi'' safaris in which they could hunt down naked young women with paintball guns admits that it was a hoax and now faces misdemeanor charges, the mayor said Friday.
Promoter Michael Burdick could get six months in jail and a $1,000 fine for operating without a proper business license, Mayor Oscar Goodman said.
``I'll do everything I can to see this man is punished for trying to embarrass Las Vegas,'' Goodman said.
Burdick called the misdemeanor summons a waste of taxpayer money.
``I have a license; it's hanging on my wall,'' Burdick told The Associated Press before cutting off questions and referring inquiries to his lawyer, Craig Mueller, who later declined comment.
Ignore the ignoramus troll. He gets hard when you respond in any way.
The AP did not mention how many kids in the hospital were hurt/killed.
Gee, Max Cleland only lost three limbs after a grenade attack in Viet Nam. Since he didn't lose all four, I don't see what the problem is...
tomaig, you kidder.
zoe, I read that the attacker waited until all the kids were back inside the hospital. Only the Americans were killed or injured
Hey "anonymous"-- can't you deal with the truth about the war? What a coward you are posting this crap here.
Yes, Max Clleland visits the guys at Walter Reed. He understands very well what they're going through.
Where is the cowardly Bush cabal? Too squeamish to see the human suffering that their lies have wrought.
Mr. Connerly:
The people of Michigan have a simple message to you: go home and stay there. We do not need you stirring up trouble where none exists.
Michiganders do not take kindly to your ignorant meddling in our affairs. We have no need for itinerant publicity seekers, non-resident troublemakers or self-aggrandizing out-of-state agitators. You have created enough mischief in your own state to last a lifetime.
We reject your "black vs. white" politics that were long ago discarded to the ash heap of history. Your brand of divisive racial politics has no place in Michigan, or in our society. So Mr. Connerly, take your message of hate and fear, division and destruction and leave. Go home and stay there, you're not welcome here.
With every good wish,
Sincerely yours,
John D. Dingell
Member of Congress
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Connerly replied as follows:
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Congressman Dingell,
Thank you for such a warm and hospitable welcome to Michigan. . . . Ironically, your advice is the echo of southern segregationists who sought the comfort of states' rights to practice their discrimination against black Americans. . . . There is such an eerie similarity between them and you that it bears comment.
-George Wallace, Lester Maddox and others who shared their rabid and abhorrent views believed in treating people differently on the basis of skin color . . . and so do you.
-They wanted to practice their brand of racism free from the interference of "meddling, outside agitators" . . . and so do you.
-They called those who disagreed with them and merely wanted to exercise their right to assemble "carpetbaggers" and "non-resident troublemakers" who were "stirring up trouble where none exists" . . . and so do you.
-They were arrogant and intolerant bullies . . . and so are you.
Your letter is a prime example of why the texture of civil discourse in our nation is so coarse. . . . You ought to be ashamed of telling any American citizen to "go home and stay there." You say that I am not welcome in Michigan and that the "people of Michigan" don't want me there. . . . I must ask whether you have run your "get out of town" sermon by the hundreds of other Michiganders who have called, written and e-mailed me to come to Michigan and assist in the restoration of the principle of "equal protection under the law"?
You have said I am "stirring up trouble where none exists." That certainly isn't what I hear from other prominent people in Michigan or what I have read in the dailies of your state. . . .
It defies credulity that you could be so out of touch with your state as to not recognize the racial tension that lies within, much of which has been engendered by racial preferences at the University of Michigan.
I note with great interest that Reverend
I note with great interest that Reverend Jesse Jackson has announced his intention to open an office of his Rainbow Coalition in Benton Harbor. Would you please be kind enough to send me a copy of your letter to him demanding that he "go home and stay there." I understand that he is also a non-resident of Michigan. . . .
With equally good wishes.
Sincerely,
Ward Connerly
The best hot dogs in Chicago were produced either by the Vienna or the David Berg sausage company. They were bright red, with thick skins. We ate them with yellow mustard, piccalilli, and chopped onions--never ketchup, which was considered outré. Ask in those days for Poupon mustard, and I could not have answered for the consequences. (Some people liked to add hot green peppers.) A properly steamed bun with poppy seeds was the finishing touch. I could go for one now, hold the peppers.
Thanks pie - it was a maternal reaction, wondering about the Iraqi children, what they're being treated for and the horrors they've witnessed.
Next was ... wait ... most US troops are "kids" - - - get them the hell out of there - now!
Besides local media, papers and local/national politicians, who can be harassed/called/emailed to press the case for our troops?
pie - Do Bush or any members of the Cabal ever even mention the young men and women who have been killed or injured in Iraq? I mean besides Jessica Lynch.
Too bad we can't send the trolls to Iraq to act as bait there.
tomaig - what are you doing over here? You usually are over at Counterspin, polluting those conversations. Why aren't you in uniform, patrolling the streets of Baghdad, or the mountains of Afghanistan?
You're just like you Great Leader - a coward who doesn't walk the talk.
I get the sickening feeling that the opposition kill rate of Americans is sliding up from 1/day to 3/day; or is it just 3 every third day? Either way, Bush's horror is compounding.
I thought we weren't supposed to make a big deal about the deaths of American soldiers in Iraq? That's what Rush Limbaugh told me...
And damn, this Cleland thing must really scare the trolls if they have to spam the comments with posts about hot dogs.
Um, gee, Tena, let me see. Bush mentioning deaths. No. Meeting caskets at Dover. No. Visiting the hopitals. Has he? I don't remember a news article reporting that. Rummy was supposed to go to Walter Reed, but he cancelled an hour before, because he had a cold. How very considerate. Has he rescheduled or does he still have that pesky cold?
Anonymous - Take your weinie over to the nearest recruiting station and volunteer for your leader's cause. Either that, or shut the fuck up. How dare you start posting bullshit all over a thread about a decorated war hero who visits the kids in the military hospital who are there because of your president's chickenshit lies and mismanagement? Where the hell is your purple heart?
or hospitals either. Proofread.
pie - you remember a couple of weeks ago when Lambert posted a story and asked all of us our opinion on impeaching Bush? Most people, including Lambert, and myself, said "No, it isn't a good idea."
I've changed my mind. These heartless bastards need to be fired right now, and turned out in disgrace. At the very least one would expect some acknowledgement that because of their hare-brained world domination schemes our kids are being killed and maimed.
But I though W said his job was to be the hugger in chief?
thought
Melanie - I'm glad I already ate. The thought of being hugged by George Bush is almost more than I can bear.
Well, he was hugging Berlusconi the other day down on the ranch.. Does that count?
How do we get out? Even if BushCo is ousted in 2004, how do we get out?
Some major groveling to the UN and former friends and allies is in order. Will BushCO do it - no way. If a Dem is elected and does it, guess what the wingnuts will do.
Long after their testosterone level subsides, Americans will rue the day BushCo started this.
I've done my time in the military Tena - have you?
And if I follow your "reasoning" - nobody who isn't on active duty service in a combat zone can criticize Max Cleland?
If you're so concerned about the U.S. servicemembers, why don't YOU head to Iraq - I hear there's quite a shortage of human shields there these days.
If a Dem is elected and does it, guess what the wingnuts will do.
I will no longer care what the wingnuts do or say, as long as they're not in power. They need to be booted as far away as we can kick them. They've shown they're a bunch of incompetent rubes anyway. They've lost their sting.
Begone!
From the Chicken Hawk play book:
How to Support the Troops, play 152, subpart 36: criticize a veteran triple amputee.
Oooooooooo. Tena, I think tomaig likes you!
FROM DYNAMIST (THAT'S MY JESSE "FAIR USE" TAYLOR DISCLAIMER)
Jonah Goldberg does a number on the Ann Coulters of the left. I don't mean entertainers like Michael Moore. I mean supposed intellectuals who can't make the most elementary political distinctions.
In this case, the faux intellectuals are big-shot academics who lumped together everyone ever called a "conservative" (e.g., Hitler, Reagan) and then tried to find patterns in the "conservative" personality. Political bias (and ignorance) aside, the basic statistical methodology is ridiculous, since it assumes that "conservative" is an objective and consistent category like "male" or "45-year-old."
As someone who believes social science can and does discover new truths about how people live and think, I find this sort of idiotic research particularly appalling. It teaches the general public that social science is bullshit. (It also demonstrates that university press offices can be really stupid about what they choose to publicize.)
And, of course, I've written a whole book arguing, with copious examples, that--far from defining "liberal" and "conservative" minds--attitudes toward social and economic change cut across the traditional left-right spectrum.
Written by Virginia - Friday, July 25, 2003
To be fair - I do think it should be possible to criticize Cleland. Being a veteran does not make him immune to disagreement, just as being President doesn't make one immune.
However, there is a difference between 'criticism' and what happened to Cleland during the election.
"...major groveling to the U.N.and former friends and allies is in order."
Well, if groveling like a whipped dog is what you're looking for, then a Democrat would definitely be your best choice.
That's your idea of the future? Groveling to the U.N?
No wonder the Democrats are a sad, sick, gutless joke when it comes to national defense.
Gosh, Tena: gettin' your little panties in a wad, aren't you?
And if I follow your "reasoning" - nobody who isn't on active duty service in a combat zone can criticize Max Cleland?
The problem, Tomaig, is that no one can understand what the f*ck your criticism means, because it doesn't connect. Cleland was talking about other soldiers getting their legs and arms blown off, not him. How is this "milking the public's sympathy"? Quite apart from the fact that what he said was true, something you've unaccountably failed to address so far.
The only reply that comes to mind is that you don't think the dead and wounded in Iraq deserve any sympathy. dumb f*cks, deserved their fates Tomaig mutters, as he opens a long cool one. Is that it?
I liked it better when the wingnuts were stunned into silence by the sight of Duhbya going down in flames over the Niger Connection. For a few days, there wasn't a troll to be seen for miles and miles and miles...
Actually, the dems will not be groveling. The rest of the world waits patiently for Bush to get booted, and then our relationships will be on the same footing they were before the little dictator screwed them up. It's just a brief, unfortunate period. Everyone understands that.
And if I follow your "reasoning" - nobody who isn't on active duty service in a combat zone can criticize Max Cleland?
The problem, Tomaig, is that no one can understand what the f*ck your criticism means, because it doesn't connect. Cleland was talking about other soldiers getting their legs and arms blown off, not him. How is this "milking the public's sympathy"? Quite apart from the fact that what he said was true, something you've unaccountably failed to address so far.
The only reply that comes to mind is that you don't think the dead and wounded in Iraq deserve any sympathy. dumb f*cks, deserved their fates Tomaig mutters, as he opens a long cool one. Is that it?
Sorry for double post.... Tomaig isn't worth it.....
Anonymous - you bet my little panties are in a wad. They've been in a wad since the Brainless and Dickless wonder you love so started this war. They will remain in a wad until our service men and women are home safe.
Now, how about that volunteer army post that's waiting for you?
tomaig, why don't you come down to the VFW with me? I'll buy the beer, and if you make the same remarks you've been leaving on this thread you'll have a very exciting visit. I can guarantee you'll get the opportunity to personally enjoy some combat related injuries.
I keep seeing the tally for the number of our soldiers killed since we killed Saddam's sons (and 14-year-old grandson). I'm much more interested in the tally since aWol said "Bring 'em on!" Anybody got that number?
I enjoyed both readings, sagesource! 
yankeedoodle - excellent suggestion.
Mel, go here:
http://lunaville.org/warcasualti...es/
Summary.aspx
That's your idea of the future? Groveling to the U.N?
I'm with pie; there isn't a need for groveling, merely understanding.
It's a good thing so many nations turned down the bribes the White House offered for "support" in Iraq. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to afford the $1 billion per week occupation. I'm so glad the Republicans are so fiscally sound with *my* money!
Tena, did you see a copy of the ad that Soros is putting in the NYTimes, the St. Louis Post- Dispatch, and the Houston Chronicle?
It's fabulous!
http://www.wedeservethetruth.com/
Interesting apparent reversal of roles that this thread's engendering. Actually, I think that opens the way for another kind of conversation, but that's for another thread.
When put into the context of this particular war, I think Cleland's observations are very moving, especially when juxtaposed with Bush's "bring 'em on" comment (and I think I do understand what Bush was trying to do, but I still think it was crass and undignified). That said, I do worry that there's a tendency to overplay the "chickenhawk" argument. I think it's entirely appropriate in a democracy for citizens to discuss and debate the proper role and use of the military regardless of whether or not one has served.
I'm sure virtually everyone here agrees with that proposition; it's just good to remember, IMHO, that the "chickenhawk" aspect should only be a small part of a broader critique.
Ed, Bush wishes he hadn't been so hasty going to war without UN support. It sure would be nice to have troops and $$$ from other countries to help defray the cost of this little escapade which is running at about 5.4 million dollars a hour.
So what are you saying - that all VFW members are in lockstep, that being a veteren trumps everything else? That if I dare to criticize a veteran, I'd get "combat related injuries"?
Guess YOUR VFW is a lot more narrow-minded than most of the ones I've been in....
Brian, if the chickenhawks would take some responsibility for this war and show some real concern for our troops, I'd be easier on them. But they're insensitive and out-of-touch. It's infuriating.
Brian S. - you are entitled to your opinion. I am entitled to say that it is bullshit. The chickenhawks need to be called what they are, and as often as necessary. People who think war is such a great thing ought to be the ones fighting them. Oddly enough, they almost never are.
Still awaiting the details of your service to our country, Tena...
someone who tosses around the epithet "coward' the way you do- aimed at people about whom you know NOTHING- MUST be exceptionally heroic and brave, right?
Still awaiting the details of your service to our country, Tena...
We're still waiting to hear the details of your's, tomaig.
tomaig,
so, educate me on your service so that i will not react with ignorance to your bile.
J.T.
RECON
tomaig - let's hear the details of your service, then we can talk.
pie: I'm in sympathy with you there; that's why I included the remark about Bush's "bring 'em comment."
Tena: Hasn't been the first time I've been told I've said bullshit. Won't be the last, I'm sure.
tomaig, let's hear about your service.
CW4 YD, BSM, PH, CIB.
Brian S. - well, thanks for taking it that way. Didn't mean to be too harsh about it.
Oops, that should be CW4, USA (Ret.)
Tena: That's because our views probably differ in more in degree and emphasis and less in substance.
Plus, I never take myself too seriously. I'd have had a cardiac arrest by now if I did.
Brian S. - Not taking oneself too seriously is a really good way to be.
That's your idea of the future? Groveling to the U.N?
It's certainly not the future I would choose, but that may be our only option if we're going to escape the quagmire that Bush misled us into.
tomaig, let's hear about your service.
[cricket . . . cricket . . .]
Beth - I think you may have just said a true thing. After the mess that Bush has made of diplomatic relations between this country and the rest of the world, we are going to have to grovel to get back in the door.
I don't understand jingoists, and that's who these people are. "America is God's Country." How come so many idiots have a direct pipeline to the Almighty?
God looks out for fools and children.
tomaig bitches that "Cleland acts as if he's the only person ever to go to war."
Meanwhile, tomaig fellates someone who only PRETENDS to have gone to war.
Tena, Brian S. —
I think your exchange illustrates a couple of things:
1. the way "on topic" threads focus on small issues making up a larger pattern — like taking a magnifying glass to a pointillist painting. Not a bad thing, by any means, but I think Brian's point is worth keeping in mind as we fight BushCo on every level possible.
2. the possibilities of honest discussion, if both parties can approach the exchange with a certain amount of humor and flexibility.
Thanks to you both.
So am I supposed to think tomaig was a colonel or a pfc? Just asking.
The kind of guy that belittles a veteran's combat wounds can only be a peacetime soldier, tomaig.
I have this suspicion that you were the pilot of an LMD. (Large, metal desk.)
You don't have to go to the VFW to get your sorry ass kicked, either. If your idea of fun is hurling insults at a silver star winner with a purple heart and four missing limbs- swing by my farm. I have a little something for ya.
To those of you who ridicule the idea of approaching the UN for help:
If we don't, who will fight? And who will pay?
The U.S. hardly has enough troops to meet its existing commitments, never mind any further foreign adventures. And Li'l George's deficit for next year will be at least $500 billion, with ever-higher deficits down the road.
If the U.S. insists on going it alone (or with just a few other countries), eventually it will run out of manpower and money.
Would you be willing to pay higher taxes? Do you support a draft?
Who will fight, and who will pay?
Another US soldier killed today.
Four today. Ugh.
Link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middl...ast/
3099201.stm
Jennifer says....tomaig bitches that "Cleland acts as if he's the only person ever to go to war."
Meanwhile, tomaig fellates someone who only PRETENDS to have gone to war.
Nods....I like that...
Ya know if Clinton had "gotten" just one tenth as good from Monica that "Version 1.5" has gotten from the media and his mindless little toadies like tomaig, then Clinton would still be in the Oval Office back room where he'd barricaded himself, "1.5" would be down in Crawford whining, "But Daddy!! You said I could be Prez'nent... and Uncle Antonin did TOO!!", 9/11 would NEVER occurred, yellowcake would be something you have to settle for because you were lazy and waited to the last minute on a busy holiday weekend to shop at the Wal-Mart bakery finding all the carrot, chocolate and white cakes had been sold out....and we wouldn't be discussing any of this.
Bummer...
my vision of the future is for Bush to go groveling to the UN until he's voted out of office. Strap those knee pads on now Georgie!
"I've done my time in the military..."
Weekends playing paintball in between visits to the local stripclub don't count.
Tell us how many limbs you lost, you stupid fucking prick, or shut the fuck up.
And I want a picture.
Thanks pie, for the great resource. It didn't exactly answer my question, although it got me a lot closer. When I find out how many American soldiers have died since the "bring 'em on" comment, I'll start keeping my own tally. I have a feeling it might come in useful some day.
>To those of you who ridicule the idea of approaching the UN for help:
>If we don't, who will fight? And who will pay?
Seems like a lot of Americans, mostly in trailer parks, really like this war. So maybe they'd like to fight. And pay.
i'd love to see cleland bitch-slap the pussy-in-chief.
Why aren't people mentioning Max
Cleland for V.P.?
Since Cleland is against soldiers dying and suffering multiple amputations, he is objectively pro-Saddam.
Y'know, I read this thread a couple of hours ago, and just came back to see if tomaig would spill the details of his illustrious military career.
Seems, instead, he ran away. Looks like whoever called him a coward was spot on.
The way to go with scum such as tomaig
is just to ignore them completely...
no rebuttal at all...nothing...they
live for the heated response...so let
tomaig stew in their own juice...CW4(Ret.) Yankeedoodle, your CIB says it all...thank you for your service to us all...let the scum sink under their own weight into oblivion...they
will wither away...BigMike,RA, 62-65.
considering the pitiful job the bushivics are doing, maimed is better than dead right now.
50,000 Americans died in Vietnam. At the current rate of American Troops dying in Iraq, it will take roughly until the year 2030 before we meet the total dead in Vietnam.
But its cool to finally to see the left care about American soldiers unlike the ones the spit on my dad and called him a baby killer when he came back from his two tours of service in the rice patties. But does the left really care about the troops or are they using them as political tools to try undermine US foreign policy?
Killing people is bad. Is it so hard to understand that many believe this?
P.S. And our foreign policy sucks, and should be changed by any means possible.
Y'know, I read this thread a couple of hours ago, and just came back to see if tomaig would spill the details of his illustrious military career.
Seems, instead, he ran away. Looks like whoever called him a coward was spot on.
I think he just missed the memo.
He'll find it eventually.
What are you saying, Anonymous? That the deaths aren't important until they reach 50,000? A death is a death.
And you aren't also saying that the entire Left is as stupid as anyone who would spit on a soldier returning from Vietnam, are you? Surely you aren't. Someone like that represents the entire Left the same way the fools who threatened to shoot me for protesting the war represent the entire Right.
In other words, they don't.
Does the right really care about the 3,000 people who died in the WTC, or are they using them as political tools to try undermine questioning of US foreign policy?
the ones the spit on my dad and called him a baby killer
If that really happened to your father, I'm sorry for what he went through, but you'll have to forgive me for being skeptical when some "Anonymous" makes such a claim. As this Counterpunch article says, "this story is at best, an ideologically--driven exaggeration of one or two unfortunate incidents. At worst, it's a damned lie." And the suggestion that the left didn't care about Vietnam era soldiers is total BS.
It amazes me that anyone could believe that the side that sends soldiers out to die in unnecessary wars cares about the troops, while the side that's trying to keep them alive and safe doesn't.
> as stupid as anyone who would spit > on a soldier returning from Vietnam,
Call a spade a spade.
Call a person who killed babies
a baby killer, and ooo you've gone too far.
> the ones the spit on my dad and
> called him a baby killer
Well. Did he kill babies?
My dad used math to murder vietnamese
who were defending thier own country.
How ironic. First tomaig accuses Cleland of "milking the public's sympathy" for losing limbs in Vietnam, then another Repub comes along and makes an issue of a Vietnam Vet being spit on.
The "spitting on Vietnam vets" story has been debunked time and again, but there are still idiots who buy into it.
To be a successful "spitter," one would have to know the arrival times and destination of the aircraft on which the rotating vets returned to the US. (Many were flown into military bases, which would be difficult, if not impossible, to penetrate.}
That would leave the "spitter" with two choices: Accost the returning vets in a commercial airport (which would presuppose flight schedule knowledge). Or, even more unlikely,
confront them in the general public (which would require the ability to determine which campaign ribbons indicated that the "spitees" had served in Vietnam).
So save your sob-story bullshit for someone who doesn't know any better.
I'd say one hell of a lot more hippies and peace protesters got spit on than soldiers.
Soldiers just came back dead.
I couldn't possibly care less if tomaig was in the military. I don't see that it necessarily makes someone a better person, or gives them any special right to speak their mind.
(disclaimer: I'm not welcome in the US military)
However: he was discussing something happening right now in Iraq, and explaining to the audience what that is like, first-hand. It's fortunate that we have people available to offer this perspective.
That is some history we would all do well to learn from, because it looks like we're repeating it even as we speak...
Seraphiel - I don't give a flying f**ck about tomaig or anything he claims to have done or not to have done.
But I brought up the question service in the military after he accused Cleland of using his war wounds politically. It seems to me that anyone who is going to criticize someone who has been there for what he is saying about what it's like there, had better have some idea himself of what the reality is.
Otherwise, the critic is being cowardly and ignoble.
Which just about covers tomaig and anonymous.
"Yes, Max Cleland visits the guys at Walter Reed". How many times has Bush visited the wounded? Has he even showed up at Dover AFB when the caskets arrived? Has he been to one funeral?
BobNJ - I asked that question way back upthread, and got the answer, basically, "NO." And neither has any one else from the administration.
Which is truly disgusting. And show quite clearly how this admin. really views war - it's a game. None of them want to see the actual human results. Except that you'd think that Colin Powell, at least, would know better.
That's your idea of the future? Groveling to the U.N?
Actually, my idea of the future is for the US to remain arrogant and stuck in Iraq with the situation collapsing around them - alone.
The more America remains stuck in that swamp, with bodybags dribbling back to the US and soldiers complaining bitterly about being set up as bait, the less chance the US will attempt to bomb more countries.
So I'm all for Bush. I'm for the US bankrupting itself with budget deficits. I'm for the US being in a low-grade guerilla war with no end in sight. I'm for constant backbiting and internal wars about the lies and deceit of this Administration.
Four More Years! Four More Years!
I'm for the US bankrupting itself with budget deficits.
Except that if the dollar crashes, you risk global economic collapse. Unless, that is, enough countries switch to using the Euro as their reserve currency first.
Except that if the dollar crashes, you risk global economic collapse.
Point - but the adjustment has to come sooner or later, since the current situation is unsustainable. Better it come discrediting a imperialist Republican administration than a more reasonable American government.
dear tomaig,
december 25, 1958. a mistake or just a cruel whim of fate.
still hearing those crickets..........
J.T.
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