I'MMA LET YOU FINISH
Of course this so-called "cache of weapons" is not proof of anything. When could bacteria ever be used as a weapon. It is ridiculous.
Saddam used Botox. And you know it, Atrios.
Well, of course bacteria could be used as a weapon - what do you think anthrax is?
That said, it is clear that an ATCC reference stock of the less-dangerous strain of botulism, kept in someone's home refrigerator next to their lunch, cannot be called a weapons cache by anyone who is serious on the subject.
Isn't Botulism a common food poisoning? What are the odds that it grew in that test tube by "accident"?
Saddam used Botox.
See, the war was justified! Saddam lied about his age, and we couldn't prove how old he was because he didn't look a day over 30. We had to invade before this menace stole all our women with his dashing good looks--you know how women swoon before a man in a beret and a bushy mustache.
Starting the topic off-topic. I just read on Dutch Teletekst that Congress approved the extra 87 billions for Iraq. Fine, now get this.
66 billions are earmarked for military operations and 21 billions for the rebuilding of Iraq. The Senate wants to give Iraq half of the 21 billions in the form of a loan. Iraq won't have to pay back that loan if OTHER countries waive 90 percent of THEIR loans to the former Iraqi government.
If this is true, it is brilliant! If a victorious UN resolution does not get you the money you need, use a moral Catch 22 to distort it from those UN refuseniks. If the other countries refuse, they can be blamed for burdening Iraq with debt. If they agree, they are paying for something somebody else broke.This US administration is just... brilliant.
Saddam's WMD program may have been imaginary but his Plastic Surgery Program (PSP) was quite up to date.
This partucular "weapons cache" would go for thousands in Hollywood.
Remember this admistrations wanted to hide Kay's final report, but couldn't so they decided to spin that Saddam wanted WMD but did have any so isn't we good we all bomb the hell out of Iraq. It's all so dismal. Kay has had time to talk the higher Iraqi scientist and mid-level scientist that Mr. Kay talked about as giving him more help and only thing he got was vile of old Botulism Bacteria. AND boutulism is certainly easy to come by if all it requries is that one lets food spoil.
Bush's WMD team has have time to process the all the Iraqi scientist by now so the fact of the matter is THERE IS NO WMD... ARE WE would KNOW IT BY NOW. And if Bush did find anything at this point in time, I'm sure it would be news to Iraq scientist. I'm sure they would say that Bush and company planted it.
...you know how women swoon before a man in a beret and a bushy mustache.
Are you suggesting that george grow a mustache and don a beret?
Nah, won't help.
...and about those "dual use" labs. How many of them were co-incidently located on college campuses and in high schools?
You are the President of the United States. Despite trashing the economy and leading us into a FUBAR war in Iraq, you inexplicably have an approval rating around 50%. If you say anything enough times, no matter how far-fetched, no matter how much it strains reason, around 50% are going to believe you and, with Fox et al shilling for your ass, that's all you need.
So when Bush says a 10 year old vial of botulism that was in some guy's refrigerator is evidence of a bacterial weapons program, it becomes true, especially since the compliant press doesn't fully take him to task for it. Tell me I'm wrong.
sorry about the italics cf
cynicalgirl, that's what "dual use" means. (duh)
What I fear is that Fearless Leader will decide to take the war on terror to U.S. college campuses, and arrest hordes of academics for housing microbiological samples in their lab fridges.
Except for DARPA funded labs, of course.
And mainly focusing on Jews and Muslims.
The whole botulism/botulinum toxin as WMD is a red herring - it has never been anything remotely resembling "weaponized", even at Ft. Detrick.
It is far too unstable, Botox is shipped on dry ice and has to be used within minutes of removing it.
By the time it was loaded into a delivery vehicle it would be all-but-useless.
It would be good for offing someone one-on-one, though.
er...not that I would know...
At least a ten year old vial of Botulinum is better than "Saddam Hussein is his own weapon of mass destruction." That one always made me wince. But I do get a chuckle out of Condiisms that go something like: "Substantial evidence that S.H. was harbouring intentions to develop weapons of mass destruction programs."
It's like we're all living in a Kubrick movie: "We are here to help the Iraqi's, because inside every A-Raab, there's an American trying to get out."
"Condi, Donald! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
The Bush team is so extraordinarily good at spin that at times they lose a sense of reality. I am running for Congress to stop the deaths in Iraq. Hopefully, enough critics of the failed policies of the Bush Adminstration will be elected to stop them. To help, please contact me at Americans4Cohen@aol.com, or call at 215-725-5639. My website AmericansforCohen.com will be up soon. My district is the Philadelphia areaseat now held by U.S. Senate candidate Joe Hoeffel.
But the INTENT was there.
They had plans to do it in the high school chemistry labs.
Rummy, do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk... ice cream. Ice cream, Rummy, children's ice cream.
"""Rummy, do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk... ice cream. Ice cream, Rummy, children's ice cream."""
That's hysterical.
I think that what is giving this entire adventure a sureal, twilight zone flavor is that these guys have for the first time in their experience gotten themselves into something that is simply "unspinnable".
And they can't quite grasp that. What makes this especially dangerous is that it seems that they have lost sight of the line (if there ever was one) between spin and outright lying. The result is this comical charade where they keep topping themselves in the absurdity of their claims.
Unable to stop. If this lie isn't selling you need to make it bigger! Watching this happen is a really disorienting experience. The media's relatively passive acceptance of one ridiculas claim after another, far from making the lies more plausible simply embue the whole scene with an air of unreality. Strange days indeed!
'Tinfoil Hat Boy'
Brilliant entry on 10.17.03 at 9:50 pm with or without italics! I find that approval around 50% equally inexplicable btw
SW: They only have to keep spinning the unspinnable for a little while longer. They just need to milk the spin until it's closer enough to the elections, then they can role out their "new products".
Does anybody honestly believe that WMDs and/or Saddam and/or Usama and/or Anthrax Boy WON'T turn up just in time for maximum election effectiveness? Probably the same week Matt Drudge and/or the Washington Times breaks a story about all those gay lovers Dean and/or Clark cooked and ate when they were running a white slavery ring for the KGB.
A commentor at Kos said something really profound, Bush has been able to change reality, and I don't know that any president has attempted that before. I'm in awe.
There's a difference between "spin" and "lies" and these are just plain lies. And when you can't explain a lie, you must tell another lie. So it's become lie upon lie upon lie.
And Cheney is still talking doomsday to distract. He said something the other day about "tens of thousands of Americans will die in one day of horror". Yeah, if you continue to invade other countries they will.
I'm not in awe. It's been attempted before and it never works.
I saw that comment at Kos's, Melanie.
That guy was right but it's not the whole story. I'm still thinking about this. There's more to it than that.
this is botox.
we better start rounding up all the rhinoplasticians in the usa now. obviously they are saddam henchmen.
I find that approval around 50% equally inexplicable btw
You'd be amazed how many people out there don't watch the news and get their opinions from the people around them. I ran into an acquaintance of mine yesterday and was pretty horrified to hear what she "thought" (in quotes, because it seemed to me that she was studiously avoiding things):
- all politicians are alike, and there's no difference between Republicans and Democrats.
- anything you hear anyone say about anyone else is "just politics" - unless, of course, it's about who is sleeping with whom. She could go on and on about Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky... "that heifer..."
- she didn't know the name of a single Democractic candidate for president; on the other hand, she did know all about the Kobe Bryant trial and what's happening with Ben and JLo.
- the administration lied? "Just politics, they always say that about each other." why do you think we are we in Iraq? "terrorists"
I was trying to convince her to register to vote for the primaries. I think maybe I'm glad I didn't succeed.
That said, it is clear that an ATCC reference stock of the less-dangerous strain of botulism, kept in someone's home refrigerator next to their lunch, cannot be called a weapons cache by anyone who is serious on the subject.
Even so, I'm worried. If these guys check my kitchen, I'm in real trouble. My fridge has at least four different things growing in it that are probably at least as lethal as that test tube.
Bush has been able to change reality...
For some.
But he was propped up with the *help* of his marketing team and a compliant media.
The honeymoon is over.
What happens when Sauron's minions blow up in another American city?
I'm not sure everyone is going to curl into a ball and call for BushCo to rescue them.
I think they may actually get pissed off at BushCo.
If I recall from my microbiology class lo those many years gone by, it is extraordinarily difficult to 'grow' C. botulinum, being an anaerobic bacteria, must grow in an oxygen-free culture; it takes about a week of carefully controlled temp and environment to grow colonies.
It is not likely that a sample of C. botulinum stored in a refrigerator for 10 years would remain viable at all, even if frozen.
Anyway, reference strains of C. botulinum are used to trace outbreaks of newborn botulism; C. botulinum is found in the GI tract of newborns occasionally and can cause severe illness and death. The reference strain would be grown paired with a stool sample to confirm the diagnosis of botulism poisoning.
A public health microbiologist may feel free to correct any errors in my post, but it is substantially correct, I believe.
The Agonist has a link to this story in the L.A. Times.
A suspicious sample of biological material recently found by U.S. weapons hunters in Iraq probably was purchased legally from a U.S. organization in the 1980s and is a substance that has never been successfully used to produce a weapon, experts said.
The discovery of the hidden vial of C. botulinum Okra B, which was revealed in an Oct. 2 interim report by chief U.S. weapons hunter David Kay, was highlighted in speeches by President Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney, Secretary of State Colin L. Powell and other senior administration officials as proof that President Saddam Hussein's government maintained an illicit bio-weapons program before the war.
The discovery of the hidden vial of C. botulinum Okra B...proof that President Saddam Hussein's government maintained an illicit bio-weapons program before the war.
I always told my wife vegetables are evil. Now I have proof!
Topo,
Interesting, eh? Remember that 10K page disclaimer Saddam gave the UN before the War? Remember the list of 50-100 American and US companies and US GOVERNMENT INSTITUTIONS that had allegedly sold Iraq the means and materiel for his WMD programs?
Whatever happened to that, I wonder? Seems awfully strange to me, that. At the time, I recall newspaper reports about it claiming to have big American defense and chemical companies.
Funny how the newspaper reporters are allowed to have access to that stuff, but you and I aren't.
I wonder why?
Hey look! Arnold!
all george has to do is believe, believe that the weapons are there. and then when he clicks his red shoes hells, they will be there. just like Kansas.
right Toto?
Does this make my old toxicology professor a terrorist?
how about plastic surgeons? they use extracted Botox to give you that perpetually surprised look.
Bush is freakin' insane: 350 billion dollars is an "itty-bitty" tax cut and one-vial of botulism is a DEATH THREAT THAT WILL BRING A DAY OF HORROR LIKE NONE OTHER EXPERIENCED BY THE NATION BEFORE WITH HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DEATHS!
...what an asshole! (That's for you, pansypoo!).
--ventura county, ca
This story from the LA Times verifies what many people knew as a matter of course. The ‘vial’ of deadly botulism reported by David Kay as proof of Iraq’s bioweapons program was really a culture of C. botulinum B and probably came from the ATCC, American Type Culture Collection based in Virginia. This particular strain was dismissed by US scientist as having no bioweapons potential.
WASHINGTON — A suspicious sample of biological material recently found by U.S. weapons hunters in Iraq probably was purchased legally from a U.S. organization in the 1980s and is a substance that has never been successfully used to produce a weapon, experts said.
The discovery of the hidden vial of C. botulinum Okra B, which was revealed in an Oct. 2 interim report by chief U.S. weapons hunter David Kay, was highlighted in speeches by President Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney, Secretary of State Colin L. Powell and other senior administration officials as proof that President Saddam Hussein's government maintained an illicit bio-weapons program before the war.
The significance of the vial is one of several elements of Kay's report that are being called into question by U.S. biowarfare experts and former United Nations weapons inspectors. Although most praised Kay for uncovering numerous cases in which Iraq hid suspicious equipment and activities from U.N. inspectors, they said the report appeared misleading in several areas.
Overall, Kay, who returned to Iraq last week, reported that he had found no evidence so far to indicate that Hussein's regime had reconstituted its chemical weapons program, or had taken significant steps to build nuclear weapons or produce fissile material, after the 1991 Persian Gulf War.
The US government feels justified in their preemptive strike. And many Americans believe that Iraq was the ‘bogey’ man and they‘re being dealt with, even if it’s a little “untidy”.
Meanwhile, President Bush and Vice-President Cheney are once again stepping up the rhetoric. Waving the vial of botulinum culture like a banner call to arms, the administration rallies and declares “We are on the offensive and will strike them before they strike us.” Condoleeza Rice assured us that Saddam Hussein “harbored intentions” of acquiring nuclear weapons, therefore he, and by proxy his country, deserved to feel our might.
Last February, Undersecretary of State John Bolton told Israeli officials that after defeating Iraq, the United States would "deal with" Iran, Syria, and North Korea. I’m sure our troops in Baghdad are thrilled to know where their next deployment will take them.
I've got parsnips growing in my garden, and they're covered in botulinum bacteria. If I scrape the evil roots into a test tube, am I a "terrist?"
Clark put the meme into play (cause for distrust, in my universe, but we shall see):
"This was being discussed as part of a five-year campaign plan, he said, and there were a total of seven countries, beginning with Iraq, then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Iran, Somalia, and Sudan."
Place your bets. As soon as the airbases are ready in Iraq, it's showtime, domestic and international anger or no domestic and international anger. And then the Impotent Senators will really have to...mutter into their pillows.
My parents were out of the country when Hurricane Isabel hit, and took out their power for 5 days.
I'm betting they had more botulinum in their fridge when they got back than that Iraqi scientist had.
Cleaning out our refrigerator, we discovered a plastic bowl of leftovers that we must have shoved to the back and forgotten a month or so ago. Lots of green fuzzy stuff growing on it. My god, WMD!!
OT, anybody notice Instapundit's latest on loans vs aid to Iraq:
"HERE'S A ROUNDUP OF BLOGGERS LEFT AND RIGHT who think that the Senate's decision to turn Iraqi aid into loans is an asinine -- and near-treasonously stupid and destructive -- idea."
"Near-treasonous"??? What the fuck? He does know what treason is, doesn't he? "Asinine", "stupid" and "destructive", okay, fine that's his (wrong) opinion, but why shoot his ad hominem in the foot by bringing up treason?
What a total tosspot.
Danny Schechter asks, "WMDs Found?":
Hoping for some juicy stories, I chatted with NBC analysts and embeds. All I came away with was the rumor, now buzzing in the Middle East, that some WMDs have been "found" and that Bush will, like some magician, pull them out of his electoral hat at the appropriate time. On this score the Times reports [Friday]: "At Iraqi Depot, Missiles Galore and No Guards: Much of the ammunition scattered around Iraq is unguarded because the U.S. does not have the personnel to keep watch."
has this made it over here yet this morining?
US Soldiers to America: ''Bring us home now; we’re dying for oil and corporate greed!''
Condi was on Oprah the other day and said they had discoved "stocks" of botulinium toxin in an underground bunker or something. Oprah had asked her offhand if she ever prays at night that they will find those WMDs and Condi exploded into full rambling defense mode. Kays report proved Colin Powell's speech was dead right, etc. Then she said we'd found these "stocks" of botu. My god, America, what will happen to you as your major decision-makers become more and more incapable of accurately assessing the basic facts in your war on terrorism? What I mean is she appeared to believe what she was saying; this is your president's National Security Advisor? If I were him I'd be terrified.
So for anybody who has a bowl of moldy food growing in their refrigerator: congratulations! You've started your own potentially profitable WMD program! As a patriotic duty to your country, please send any and all samples of such materials to:
U.S. Department of Defense
attn: Donald Rumsfeld
The Pentagon
Washington, DC 20001
Don't forget the postage!
-- Condomleakage Rice and her Pal have loyally sunk like stones to the bottom of the Big Muddy, and will continue to send up streams of bubbles-- while their boss stands on their shoulders to keep his nose above water and says to "Push On!"
I'm sure they'll make ideal domestics for Oprah after they're finally swept away by the slowly but surely rising tide.
-- Nastiness aside, I agree with Darryl Pearce's post. Only to deluded, desperate, or paranoid True Believers might one vial a WMD program make.
-- Regarding the Tinfoil Chapeau Lad's comment, for months now I've been haunted by the comments of a friend and co-worker of mine, call him Fred, with whom I rode to work on the morning of March 21st, I-Day. This guy is the quintessential American, a truly decent and nice man who has always worked hard, supported a family and selflessly cared for foster children, etc.
Fred is not what you'd call particularly sharp or analytical, though. In fact, on a morning not long before the 21st, he related how he'd started college in 1969 or 1970, but either couldn't keep up his grades or just didn't feel like sticking with it. So when the semester ended, he marched down to the draft board and told them to drop his student deferment and put him at the top of the list to go to Vietnam. Ironically, he belonged to a respectable Quaker family, and his mother was none too happy with his decision. But young Fred raised to be patriotic, and concluded that if he was needed to stop the insidious spread of Communism, it was his duty to offer himself. (He didn't get further than an Oktoberfest or zwei in Germany, I believe.)
Anyhoo, Fred said that he'd woken up in the middle of the night, and had ended up watching CNN accounts of the invasion. He didn't really have "opinions" about world events, he candidly admitted, but he quietly opined that if it was indeed true that Saddam was building chemical and nuclear weapons, supporting terrorists, starving his country's children, keeping all the money, building palaces all over the country so he can live in fabulous luxury, and so forth, maybe going to war to get rid of him was the right thing to do!
Fred, Fred, Fred, I thought-- but I didn't argue. We were pulling into the parking lot by then, anyway. As I say, this little discussion was microcosmic, and memorably unsettling. In a way, it's the Freds who worry me the most. They really do have a deep impulse to believe that if the President or others "in the know" say it, it must be true.
PS: Yeah, my posts are too long and wordy. But I've realized that I always seem inspired to do them hours after the thread has gone stale, so the good news is that no one reads them anyway. I gather that timing and brevity are everything where blogging is concerned.
I enjoyed reading your post Little Brøther. I have had experiences very similar. I have a carpool friend (Mormon) who said he agreed with his pastor who said that we needed to stop showing coverage of the war protestors as it only gave Saddam more courage.
"The whole botulism/botulinum toxin as WMD is a red herring - it has never been anything remotely resembling "weaponized", even at Ft. Detrick.
It is far too unstable, Botox is shipped on dry ice and has to be used within minutes of removing it."
Weaponizing Clostridium spores would do very little, since it has to become established in the gut in order to begin producing botulism toxin internally. The spores are metabolically 'frozen' by themselves. Establishment in the gut is blocked by the preexisting gut flora of individuals >1 year old.
Botulinum toxin is moderately labile, but aeroslizing it would do very little indeed.
Deploying the toxin at all would be rather difficult to undertake in the best of circumstances.
Dumping several tons into the effluent of a municipal water treatment plant would likely be the easiest. It would also be quite noticable and likely less effective than just about any binary chemical weapon you can think of.
And I was wondering how stupid you would have to be to buy this line that the wrong strain of this bug (that neither we nor the Soviets ever got to work as a weapon) is "proof" of Saddam wmd programs.
Then anonymous showed up and helpfully provides an example. Yep, that's exactly how dumb. Thanks, guy.
This shit looks like a reject from a creationist science fair, and people like anonymous still eat it up. Pathetic.
Okra?!?
Wow, here in Austin, Threadgills and The Green Mesquite will serve ya up a heapin' helpin' of DEEP FRIED WMD for a song!
Little did I know that my wife and I were ordering a basket of mixed wmd and green tomatoes...
I am so with you,rolex watch
luxury watch Little did I know that my wife and I were ordering a basket of mixed wmd and green tomatoes...
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